Re: The Scientific Basis of Soon's Graph
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Re: The Scientific Basis of Soon's Graph
| Neil Brooks | 02 Jul 2009 05:29 |
> No matter what Otis answers, if you look at Soon's site http://www.geocities.com/soonicansee/ > > you will notice that he has no references for the graphs. Also, we > don't know if there is an actual person named "Soon", the website is > called "Soon I Can See". The webmaster does not identify himself, so > there is no way to know if he/she is a researcher. As always, your basic premise is correct.
It appears, though, that this person IS in business, in Malaysia, as an optician:
Soon See, Optician ReLeX Eyecare 56 Taman Bunga Matahari 32400 Ayer Tawar Perak Malaysia Tel: 60-5-672-5619 A future office is planned close to Singapore.
http://www.myopia.org/ReLeX_Eyecare.gif
They claim to "prevent, control, reduce, and cure children's and teenagers' nearsightedness."
The answer to the time-immemorial and critical question is simple: he/ she has offered no proof of efficacy and safety (that would comport with internationally accepted standards), either.
It's a pretty good money maker, if you think about it. According to a longitudinal study ... posted BY Otis ... 85% of kids DON'T GET myopia.
So ... if you gave every young patient Placebo, you'd still appear to have an 85% cure rate.
Then -- just like Uncle Otie -- you blame the failures of the other 15% on their [laziness, immaturity, lack of personal resolve, ignorance, lack of understanding of the "fundamental," natural eye as a "dynamic system," etc., etc., etc.]
If you tried that HERE, people like ME WOULD do everything in our legal power to see that your license was jeopardized.
But ... if you're Otis (selling books), or Steve Leung, or Fred Deakins, or Soon See, or Alex Eulenberg ... you have nothing to lose ... but income.
Hmm.
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| Dr Judy | 01 Jul 2009 23:00 |
> This would be primarily aimed at Otis. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 2. Is the Soon curve as presented the way an experimental result is to > be expected? Yes/No No matter what Otis answers, if you look at Soon's site http://www.geocities.com/soonicansee/
you will notice that he has no references for the graphs. Also, we don't know if there is an actual person named "Soon", the website is called "Soon I Can See". The webmaster does not identify himself, so there is no way to know if he/she is a researcher.
Judy
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| Salmon Egg | 30 Jun 2009 20:31 |
This would be primarily aimed at Otis.
The Soon curve was first brought to my attention by Otis. At this time I do not know if this is purported as actual measurement or not. Please answer:
1. Is the Soon curve as presented supposed to be experimental fact? Yes/No
2. Is the Soon curve as presented the way an experimental result is to be expected? Yes/No
Bill
 Signature Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.
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| Dr Judy | 30 Jun 2009 15:00 |
[some comments about the cost of obtaining copies of published papers]
You have strayed from the topic of this thread which is the "Scientific Basis of Soon's Graph". Interesting a Flitcrofts's paper is, as I said in my previous post:
"Flitcroft states that poor accommodation function may lead to increased myopia with near work. He does not mention use of minus lenses to correct myopia as a factor, nor does he say anything about "stair case myopia", nor does his paper support Soon's Graph.
Poor accommodation function and steady state errors exist with or without myopia and minus lenses. Wearing plus at near will not improve poor accommodation, nor will wearing minus make good function turn into poor function.
And his paper is speculative, not measured. Do you have any actual measured evidence to support Soon's Graph?"
Judy
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| Otis | 30 Jun 2009 01:46 |
Dear Judy,
Subject: Publication Costs.
As you know, there is an effort to get any "U.S. Goverment Funded Study" to be published on the "net" -- for free.
The idea is that the taxpayer (You and I) have paid for it, why should we have to pay $30 for research we already paid for.
It would be easy to write this into funding requests to the National Eye Institute.
In this case, however, I don't think this was the case.
I have received a copy of the paper by Flitcroft, and think it is EXCELLENT.
I think that ANY SERIOUS PREVEIVE STUDY -- should be required to read and discuss this paper -- before any preventive effort was started.
Thus the person could NEVER be considered a "subject", or a "patient", but a co-reseacher in the science of the dynamic behavior of the eye -- as he would measure it.
Science and second-opinion best,
> > Subject: The Scientific Basis of Soon’s Graph. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > - Show quoted text - |
| Dr Judy | 27 Jun 2009 03:31 |
> Subject: The Scientific Basis of Soon’s Graph. > > Perhaps this paper is on the “Web”. Maybe some of you could find it? Costs about $30 to read via Elsevier
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9797983
> Vision Research 38 (1998) 2869 – 2879 > > A Model of the contribution of oculomotor and optical factors to > emmetropization and myopia. > > D. I. Flitcroft |
| Otis | 26 Jun 2009 13:10 |
Subject: The Scientific Basis of Soon’s Graph.
Re: Ophthalmologist D. I. Flitcroft’s Analytic Paper of the Fundamental Eye's Dynamic Behavior
Soon’s graphs are simplification and clarification of developing scientific and medical thinking about the behavior of the fundamental eye.
Thus, while denied by the majority-opinion optometrists, they are analyzed ophthalmologists.
For the record, here is the paper. Since many of you don’t like the concept of prevention, and to respect Dr. D. I. Flitcroft, let us just call this the professional (preventive) second-opinion, and thus avoid the endless personal attacks that have no place in science.
Perhaps this paper is on the “Web”. Maybe some of you could find it?
VISION RESEARCH
PERGAMON
Vision Research 38 (1998) 2869 – 2879
A Model of the contribution of oculomotor and optical factors to emmetropization and myopia.
D. I. Flitcroft
INSTITUTE OF OPHTHALMOLOGY University College Dublin 60 Eccles Street Dublin 7, Ireland
ABSTRACT:
The purpose of this work was to investigate quantitatively the interactions between accommodation, vergence and a mechanism of emmetropization driven by optical blur within the retinal image with a view to developing a model that provides and explanation of both normal emmetropization and near-work associated myopia…..
I would recommend that anyone who wishes to challenge Soon’s graph (which is an extension of this paper, obtain the paper and READ IT.
Enjoy,
Otis
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