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Re: New Eyes For Old

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Re: New Eyes For Old

Zetsu22 May 2008 20:49
> > > > Otis: Of course once the sight is cured it is possible to read
> > > > unfamiliar snellen charts with perfect vision too. But the snellen
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> I wonder what ol' Bates would say about that.....

The snellen method of myopia prevention and cure is effective for
school children under the age of 12. Adults or children who have worn
glasses should practice the various methods of obtaining rest, as the
practice of reading the snellen card alone is not enough to cure.

Neil Brooks22 May 2008 20:28
> > > Otis: Of course once the sight is cured it is possible to read
> > > unfamiliar snellen charts with perfect vision too. But the snellen
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> The blackboard? Posters on the classroom wall? Books? Work?

Of course, you missed the sarcasm.

I've been looking at "F Z B D 4," "D E F P O T E C" and all the rest
for YEARS.

Funny.  The mere fact that I've memorized them, after all this time,
only means -- as it turns out -- that I can CHEAT to read the 20/15
line -- not actually read it.

Equally funny: when I tell the doc that I have it memorized, and they
change charts, my visual acuity drops by a line or two ... or three.

I wonder what ol' Bates would say about that.....

I know Otis would use terms like "great personal resolve."

What kind of bullshit will YOU come up with?

Hmmm.

Zetsu22 May 2008 19:52
> > Otis: Of course once the sight is cured it is possible to read
> > unfamiliar snellen charts with perfect vision too. But the snellen
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Good thing those kids never had to read anything else, though....

The blackboard? Posters on the classroom wall? Books? Work?

Neil Brooks22 May 2008 15:52
> Otis: Of course once the sight is cured it is possible to read
> unfamiliar snellen charts with perfect vision too. But the snellen
> method of myopia prevention and cure only works if you keep the same
> chart and become familiar with it. Memorizing the letters by children
> is actually advised by Bates himself.

Good thing those kids never had to read anything else, though....

Zetsu22 May 2008 11:26
The Snellen method was proven to work. Dr. Bates found that if you
hung up a snellen chart on the wall and had the children read it
everyday with each eye separately to the lowest line they could see
easily, by the end of 6 months most of the kids would have markedly
reduced imperfect sight, and by the end of a year all, without
exception, would be completely free from defective sight and thus
cured.

What bigger multi-side by side controlled study is there than to
compare schools who used the method and schools which didn't? This is
a comparison of thousands of pupils, and if the method was ineffective
this would be evident. Bates did exactly this, and found that while
all the other methods of trying to prevent myopia (such as using chin
rests, improving light conditions, eliminating near work, etc.) by
former investigators had failed, the snellen method showed that
prevalence of myopia had dropped from 6% to 1%. 5% difference might
not sound like a lot, but it is on a large scale. If you take 5% of
10000 that leaves you with 500 pupils that are cured for the rest of
their life.

Otis: Of course once the sight is cured it is possible to read
unfamiliar snellen charts with perfect vision too. But the snellen
method of myopia prevention and cure only works if you keep the same
chart and become familiar with it. Memorizing the letters by children
is actually advised by Bates himself.

p.clarkii@gmail.com22 May 2008 03:58
On May 21, 9:51 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> The devil is in the details.

and the proof is in a multi-site side-by-side controlled study, not
just a single report where a particular methodology seemed promising
to the researcher who developed it.  Objectivity and lack of
understanding of the scientific method are clearly a problem for you.

so now I suppose its time to invoke another story about Raphaelson, or
maybe an update on your nephew Keith (never mind Joy)?

give it up Otis.  nothing in your post has to do with science,
medicine, or vision.

otisbrown@embarqmail.com22 May 2008 01:51
Let us be clear.  In the 1913 study, Bates had the kids
reading their own Snellens (which they could memorize if they
wished).

But to confirm their visual acuity OBJECTIVELY -- they were taken
into a separate room and asked to read a Snellen they had
not seen before.

A lot of people ASSUME this was not done.  Bates knew
that you had to CHECK visual acuity where there could
be NO memorization.   I suggest you read his
1913 report to clarify this issue.

The devil is in the details.

Enjoy,

> > Today we have RANDOMIZED Snellens -- thus no way
> > to even GUESS when reading 1/2 the letters on the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> entirely and permanently. DO NOT randomize the chart otherwise it
> won't work.

Zetsu21 May 2008 19:43
> Today we have RANDOMIZED Snellens -- thus no way
> to even GUESS when reading 1/2 the letters on the
> line correctectly.  Thus NO memorization.  The readings
> would be accurate and OBJECTIVE.

Then you defeat the object of routinely reading the snellen chart as
Bates instructed should be incorporated in school children's
classroom. Memorization is the essential reason why the method works,
as it reduces the strain to see thus improving the sight, and when
children can read the snellen chart with normal vision they can also
read anything else with normal vision, until they are eventually cured
entirely and permanently. DO NOT randomize the chart otherwise it
won't work.

otisbrown@embarqmail.com21 May 2008 19:09
Dear Zetsu,

Bates statement about INSISTING that the kids read their
Snellens still stands.

A lot of people JUMP to conclusions about Bates insistence.

The result would be a degree of interest in the kids themselves -- to
be "empowered" to know and take actions to PREVENT.

If the kid (and his parents) decline to read their Snellen, then that
tells you a lot about them.  Refuse to do it -- and FORGET ANY
WORK TOWARDS PREVENTION.

Today we have RANDOMIZED Snellens -- thus no way
to even GUESS when reading 1/2 the letters on the
line correctectly.  Thus NO memorization.  The readings
would be accurate and OBJECTIVE.

By the way, P.Clarkii is a crawfish -- truly a good nickname
for our unknown poster.

Enjoy,

> On 21 May, 19:31, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> > them, but I am still a myope.  I guess practice makes perfect
> > (=memorization).

> It's obvious to anyone who reads a snellen chart whether they are
> actually seeing them definitely and sharply or merely reciting from
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Zetsu21 May 2008 18:50
On 21 May, 19:31, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:

> > Dear Rutaji,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> them, but I am still a myope.  I guess practice makes perfect
> (=memorization).

It's obvious to anyone who reads a snellen chart whether they are
actually seeing them definitely and sharply or merely reciting from
memory. If you think people can't tell the difference then you don't
know what you're talking about. Of course memory and familiarization
is an aid to perfect sight, so memorization of the chart is naturally
good.

p.clarkii@gmail.com21 May 2008 18:31
> Dear Rutaji,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> In the later years, I think he became "excessive" in his claims.

I guess that might be what happened to you too, right Otis?

distance VA undoubtedly gets better if you have someone read a Snellen
chart over and over.  I can quote you the lines without even seeing
them, but I am still a myope.  I guess practice makes perfect
(=memorization).

otisbrown@embarqmail.com20 May 2008 19:11
Dear Rutaji,

Subject: The "early" Bates.

In his early years (1903 to 1913) he has some good, excellent
suggestions:

1.  The children READ THEIR SNELLEN -- and with parent support.

2.  With that knowledge, there is the possiblity that they could
take preventive actions.

In the later years, I think he became "excessive" in his claims.

Enjoy,

> > It's funny that you read posts at the same time you reply to them. I
> > read the message first then reply.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> p297tongue6...@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply

Pramesh Rutaji20 May 2008 18:16
> It's funny that you read posts at the same time you reply to them. I
> read the message first then reply.

Read more critically.  I wrote "I read the first paragraph and decided
to reply."  Obviously, I was going to reply to the what was contained in
the first paragraph regardless of what the rest of the message had to
say.  Having made my point, the verbosity of the rest would be more time
consuming than necessary.

Bates is good at large generalizations and illogically jumping to
conclusions and sticking with his poor decisions in face of contrary
evidence.  Natural vision practices would have been better served by a
dedicated scientist using empirical methods instead of religious style
testimonials.

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply


Zetsu20 May 2008 17:23
It's funny that you read posts at the same time you reply to them. I
read the message first then reply.

Pramesh Rutaji20 May 2008 15:54
>> Out of curiosity, did anyone read this long rambling post?  After the
>> first paragraph, I realized it went on and on and on and on and just
>> deleted the rest.
>
> How can you 'delete' the rest? It's not like my message was editable.

I read the first paragraph and decided to reply.  I add my comment and
start to read the second paragraph and realize that my scroll bar is
SMALL.  I scan down the long winded rambling message and decide there's
no reason to read any more, and delete; then post.

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply


Zetsu20 May 2008 13:47
> Out of curiosity, did anyone read this long rambling post?  After the
> first paragraph, I realized it went on and on and on and on and just
> deleted the rest.

How can you 'delete' the rest? It's not like my message was editable.

Pramesh Rutaji19 May 2008 23:41
> [...New Eyes For Old
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> these cases, as the improvement was made white the patient was
> handicapped by having to wear her glasses a great part of the time.--

Non-scientific self reporting stories - no verification.  Using that
criteria, all of the gods ever imagined exist.

Out of curiosity, did anyone read this long rambling post?  After the
first paragraph, I realized it went on and on and on and on and just
deleted the rest.

Signature

Pramesh Rutaji

p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply


Zetsu19 May 2008 22:05
[...New Eyes For Old

By Grace Ellery Channing

--Editor's Note: We are constantly hearing of patients who have been
able to improve their sight by the aid of information contained in
this magazine, or in other publications on the same subject, without
personal assistance: The following is a very remarkable example of
these cases, as the improvement was made white the patient was
handicapped by having to wear her glasses a great part of the time.--

There was once a gentleman who attempted to sell new lamps for old
ones. And another who tried to exchange, on Waterloo Bridge, perfectly
good new shillings for sixpence. In both cases the wares were as
advertised, but both fell under suspicion.

It is perhaps, then, not to be wondered at that an offer of new eyes
for old should meet with a similar fate at the hands of a public early
trained to suspect the worst - in a world where few things are as
represented and nothing is to be had for nothing.

In no other way, at least, can I account for the fact that so much of
the world is still in glasses, after a brief experience of my own.
This is the story:

Something over a year ago, in one of those periodic fits of dejection
common to those who abuse their eyes and then wonder at their failure,
I chanced to take up a copy of the New York Tribune, open exactly at
an article on Eyes, in the column devoted to scientifico-medical
truth.

I may as well confess at once that I read this column chiefly to
scoff: it is a privilege reserved to those born in doctor's families.
Moreover the condition of my own eyes at the moment, after years of
oculists and opticians, was one to make me particularly from Missouri
in my mental attitude towards anything calling itself a new "cure."
Still - I ran through the article.

It was brief, a mere review of another which had appeared in the
Scientific American, and I grasped but a fragment of the principle -
that defects of vision were not necessarily integral, but might result
from defectively controlled muscles distorting the eyeball, pulling it
out of shape. Hence nearsight, farsight, astigmatism, etc., might be
curable through muscle-control. The treatment consisted in relaxation
and re-education, intelligently applied.

As I grasped it, not being hampered by scientific pre-possesions, the
thing appeared so simple that I exclaimed to myself: "How sensible!" -
hastily qualifying it with, "How much too good to be true!" For here
was something rational - something you could do for yourself, without
either being cut up or poisoned. The article mentioned that patients
went home and taught their families - it was so simple. There was
nothing to prevent one's at least trying it on oneself.

The only detail of treatment set forth - or which I grasped - was that
the eyes could be relaxed most conveniently by looking at black, and
that by covering the eyes with the palms of the hands ("palming")
black could be retained as a mental vision, or memory, during which
the eye was at rest. By practice, one could learn to "remember black"
with the eyes opened, at will, and when it was not there. Thus
muscular control could be re-established.

It was at least worth trying, and I tried. (Here it is interesting to
remark that the moment you look at a black thing, you realize it
isn't. A really black object is hard to find, but not necessary to
success; the approximate will serve. Later I discovered that a black
period - of printer's ink - was sufficient, but I am giving by
preference the tale of my first blundering efforts.)

My first discovery was one which anyone may make for himself; it
contains the crux of the whole. This is, that after looking at black,
"palming," and seeing black with the eyes shut (at first one may see
grey or red), and then opening the eyes, there is an appreciable
instant of clear vision, in which letters or images previously blurred
and hazy come out sharp and definite. For that brief instant I could
read clearly; then immediately the old habit of muscular strain set in
again and vision lapsed. But /that instant was enough/. For, if for
any fraction of time at all vision could be reconquered, clearly the
organ of vision was intact; the trouble was extraneous, functional,
might be removable. All that was needed was to /make that instant
permanent/, and that, evidently, was a mere matter of re-educating the
exterior muscles of the eye and fixing a habit.

So far as I was concerned that first experiment was final. I was as
convinced then as I am convinced now that I, or anyone else in my
case, can recover vision virtually whole, with time, patience and
training. The demonstration was, for me, complete. Nobody had proved
it to me, I had proved it to myself. Relaxed eyes could return to the
normal and see without glasses.

How to take advantage of my discovery was another matter. My days are
largely spent in typing; my nights (too largely) in reading, both in
glasses, which of course are framed to perpetuate the errors they
confirm, so that every pair of glasses has to be farther from the
normal than the one before. With a war on, I could neither stop
working nor reading newspapers. Yet the first requisite for the new
cure I assumed to be the abandonment of the glasses. (I have since
heard of cases cured even while in glasses.)

I postponed, then, all hope of my own cure to some date "after Peace."
But I was too interested and fascinated to quite let the matter drop.
Accordingly I began to play with the small fragment of theory I had
assimilated (very inaccurately, I now realize), in the scant leisure
of my daily outings. I practised "seeing black" on the coat-backs of
pedestrians, and "central fixation" (which means seeing what you look
at where you look at It, and not its edges instead) on the street
signs and advertising bill-boards. My companions began to recognize my
"seeing black" expression. As a skeptic, I am something of a trial to
them and they enjoyed, perhaps, seeing the biter bit. But I was
getting results - undoubting the long-doubled stars, making one moon
grow where the proverbial two had grown before. Blurred letters of
fantastic height I was reducing to neat, clear rows, half as high; I
who had not read a headline, with just eyes, for years, was reading
them all. Thence I passed to the higher literature; probably nobody
has ever been so stirred by the genius of Mr. Shonts as I, when first
I could untangle his lines. Next came the gems of verse in street-car
advertisements. Now I read them all alike, indifferently, negligently,
as being no great thing, down to the quite fine ones, if the vehicle
is moderately light.

The first really startling intimation of gain, however, came to me one
hurried morning when, taking my mail from the box, I read my letters
one after another, on the way to the bus, and only realized later, as
I was rolling downtown, that I had read them all without glasses - and
without noticing it. It was fully ten years since I had been able to
read a line of a letter without glasses, frequently to my extreme
inconvenience.

This is as far as I have gone - except that I am still going. Month by
month, I recover a little and a little more of my ability to see
normally, and meanwhile, as a most important by-product of the gain, I
lose the old fatigue and ache which, with its accompanying depression,
made my hours without glasses periods of strain. Here I should explain
that my eyes are always under a twofold strain - for I listen with
them. Only the partly deaf will fully understand this, but it makes
the importance of this new treatment, for them, incalculable. And the
deaf are as the sands of the sea.

Now, if gains so real and so appreciable can be made in quarter-hour
and casual applications of a partially-grasped theory, and while with
both hands one is engaged in undoing for the remainder of the hours
what one has done in the quarters, is it not fair to believe that a
proper, steadfast, continuous application of the theory would work
miracles for those multitudes of mankind who suffer every form of
disability and handicap now covered by the term "eyestrain"? We are
told that pretty much everything from flat feet to baldness can
proceed from eyestrain, and for my part I believe it; I know what
earstrain can do. We are also assured that children in our schools
suffer, by tens of thousands, from defective vision, and are turned
into truants, invalids and criminals. Almost the largest percentage of
physical disqualifications in our Army were optical-and that under an
incredibly low standard. Eyes, then, are not an academic but a vital
issue. How is it possible that we fail to investigate to the last
point any and every possible means of relief from an evil well-nigh
universal?

This is the question I have naturally been asking, north, south, east
and west, for a year past. It seems time now to ask it out loud - in
print. Of course I have found excellent people to tell me that my
discovery "isn't so," and other excellent people to tell me that
"everybody has always known it" anyway, which does not explain to me
why "everybody" is still wearing glasses. I was sufficiently
interested myself to go and talk with a few of the cured enthusiasts;
their attitude is about what mine would be in their case - that of
those who were present at the Pool Bethesda and /saw/ the miracle
effected. I also had the curiosity to go and talk with the author of
the revolutionary theory that eyes can be cured without glasses,
himself - Dr. Wm. H. Bates.

I went to Dr. Bates through streets filled with people wearing
glasses, and punctuated at intervals by the signs of oculists,
opticians, and makers of optical devices for the near-blind. My own
oculist's and optician's offices are usually thronged with a waiting
list; it occurred to me that I might find cordons of troops keeping
order about Dr. Bates'. I found neither the cordon nor the crowds.
Why?

Here is a man who is either an absolute benefactor of humanity, or who
makes an unfounded claim. He should be given, not for his own sake but
for ours, the widest opportunity and the heartiest encouragement to
prove or disprove his theory, past all possibility of question. It is
indeed so extraordinary that he has not been forcibly summoned to do
this before now, by an impatient public, that it can only be accounted
for by that ancient disability of the human mind to accept new things
if strange - new lamps for old, real shillings sold for sixpence, or
truth that is as simple as a lie. Yet, actually, of course, Truth is
always simple - the only simple thing there is.

New eyes for old, ladies and gentlemen! Who wants them?...]

- BEM, February 1920

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