Before I reply to this I'd like you to answer a question: Are you
employed or have you ever been employed by any US drug company or by
any person or organization contracted to them or in any way
representing them or by the FDA or by any law enforcement group or by
any propaganda group for the US drug industry or are you or have you
any relatives or yourself employed in or owning any US pharmacy or do
you own any stock in any corporation that would be likely to benefit
by the reduction in import of pharmaceuticals from outside the US?

You sure sound like you do. Before you ask, personally I can answer no
to the above unless one of the mutual funds of my 401K plans owns
stock in a pharmaceutical company. Nor do I own or benefit in any way
(other than as a consumer) from purchasing drugs from outside the US
(e.g. by having an interest in Shoprxonline).

Not illegal to purchase; illegal to sell. Big difference. No risk to
the purchaser from legal action unless he resells or the drugs are
scheduled substances. Part of the reason you need to ask in the
various groups is to determine what the supplier does if the goods are
seized. Shoprxonline retries or refunds your money if the goods don't
arrive. They guarantee delivery. (These people should pay me a
commission)

What makes you think the labels of Pfizer, Lilly and Bayer on the US
drugs are real? In fact there was a piece on (IIRC) 60 minutes where
that was exactly the problem; the wholesaler was supplying counterfeit
(in my sense) drugs with seemingly valid brand names to the
pharmacies.

Well known. See websites. The head of Cipla was interviewed in The New
Yorker about his offer to supply (counterfeit in your sense) AIDS
drugs to South Africa. Drugs are supplied in bubble packs with the
Indian government's seal, not in baggies as is the case with the
home-grown variety.

You'll soon find out if the Viagra or Cialis or Levitra is fake.

The fact that you quote abbreviations such as NDA and API makes me
think that you have more than a concerned amateur status in this
discussion.

The real thing in its reaction. I wouldn't recognize a fake $20 bill
either (without lots of work) but if the supermarket takes it, it's
real.

 

But who are unwilling to share their knowledge and/or have a very
conservative view (i.e. they're good little drones) of treatment or
they simply don't know very much about the particular condition. Do
you really think anon (to take an example) knows as much about steroid
use as a biochemist working in the body builder area? Or Howard as
much as some guy suffering from ED and who has made the required
investigation? For example there's an erroneous (or incomplete
statement) in the drug contraindications for Cialis and Levitra but
not for Viagra. Maybe one of those people you think are so wonderful
can tell us what it is. Nope, the horror stories about the MD activity
and lack of knowledge would boggle the mind.

I presume you've never smoked pot or hashish or used --god
forbid--cocaine? And you doubtless wear a hard hat, and eye and ear
protection when you open a can. Seat belt, air bag, full body harness,
and roll bar--and keep it under 10 mph when you drive a car. Is your
real name Ned Flanders?

Most PCP's know squat about the two subjects we're discussing here.
The body builders can speak for themselves but for ED there's basic
information on Mescape, information about the drugs on MedScape
DrugInfo, Rx.com, Drugs.com, and cutting edge information on Medline.
Anyone with a computer can know more than the average PCP in a couple
of hours.

Not at all. It simply says that we've got some stupid drug laws and
Shoprxonline is assisting the buyer in circumventing them.

Many US companies drug companies manufacture or subcontract the
manufacture of the base to other countries.

Let's see. In 2000 I priced bulk Sildenafil Citrate from China at
$3,000 a key (minimum order). At the maximum dosage (100mg) that works
out to 30 cents for "generic viagra". Add (say) 20 cents inactive
ingredients and rent or buy a pill pressing machine or make an alcohol
suspension (even cheaper) and you have a base cost of $0.50 for which
Shoprxonline are asking $3. Big markup eh? But it pales into
insignificance when you compare it to the real stuff, Pfizer's Viagra
from drugstore.com at $8.66. And that's cheap. Some real bricks and
mortar pharmacies are asking $13.00.

But Viagra is passe today. Lilly's Cialis is strangely priced exactly
the same as Pfizer's Viagra at $8.66 (and they say that there's
competition in the pharmaceutical industry <g>) but, depending on the
level of risk you want to take, "generic cialis" can be had for as low
as 0.50 per 20mg (not Shoprxonline)--tablet or in alcohol suspension
at around $1.00.

Not a few dollars. Don't want to take any risks in life, fine, pay
Pfizer or Lilly their extortionate mark up (save the arguments about
R&D); if you're willing to take some risk you can save lots of money.
And we went through why those Chicken Little URL's you quoted don't
apply or are simply self-serving.

Save the insults too.

So is the law.

So it isn't Cialis at all then, is it.  And as an unapproved new drug,
tadanafil-generic is illegal to import to the US unless it is labeled
as clinical supplies under an active IND.

I gave you plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industry in
India has a significant problem with counterfeit drugs.  What makes
you think that the Cipla or Ranbaxy labels are genuine?  What makes
you think Cipla and Ranbaxy are quality manufacturers?  What makes you
so confident that what this website is selling isn't fake?

As far as I could tell - and I looked - Cipla does not have a single
approved NDA - not one.  As such, the FDA would not be required to
inspect their manufacturing facilities.  They do have a thriving raw
materials capability but API approval is not the same as an approved
DMF.

Even if the company is as good as you say, there is no evidence that
the content of the package you receive actually came from them.  In
the case of Indian counterfeits, it is reasonable to think that
imitating the local market leader is a viable strategy to pursue.  If
you were to receive a drug with a Cipra label, would you recognize it
as fake?  What would you compare to?

What you are likely to get are people who actually know something
about science and medicine.

You want medical advice from someone who is breaking the law and
misusing drugs?  To each his own.

This is what you said -
"Shoprxonline is reputable but there are those that aren't."
and you know this because soemone on an NG told you so.

Here you go - this is one of this reputable company's policies:

"In order to make your shopping experience hassle free, our qualified
on-staff physician will issue a prescription for each order so we can
legally fill and ship your prescription."

This doesn't raise any questions about ethics in your mind?

And this:

"U.S. medicine names are for reference only. You are purchasing
equivalent medicines from India. The medicines are made under strict
regulations and often by the same pharmaceutical companies that
manufacture in the U.S. such as Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline and Bayer and
the facilities are FDA approved."

Do you actually believe this is true?  The part about them being
manufactured by big pharma and then labeled locally and sold at
pennies on the dollar?

Or this: "All of our generic medicines are manufacturered in FDA
approved facilities and come in factory sealed packaging with
expiration dates."

Buying offshore over the internet, especially from India, is a foolish
and dangerous thing to do.  I gave you a dozen sources that provide
evidence of the risk - from FDA to BBC to the Indian government
itself.

Are you really that cavalier to suggest that the risk is worth the few
dollars you might save?  Health is about the only thing you can't fix
with money once you screw it up.

And then to argue that it's ok because you have a weightlifter NG
following that has identified the good ones?

That's pretty dumb, in my opinion.  But you are entitled - go for it
and become another example that Darwin was right.

js

If that's what you regard as counterfeit, you're correct but pedantic.
As you're well aware advertising Tadalafil or Sildenafil Citrate is
likely to produce a big "Huh?" from the prospective purchaser so these
companies (all of them) use the US brand names and add the word
"generic". Last time I checked Lilly doesn't sell Cialis in capsule
form either.

By "counterfeit" in connection with medication I (and I suspect most
people) understand that instead of Tadalafil you'd be getting a
capsule that contained no or insufficient active ingredient. Most of
your URL's in fact use counterfeiting in this sense and those from
India are certainly not referring to the products of Cipla or Ranbaxy.

Hmmm, don't think so. All you're likely to get here is the pure
conservative voice of Big Pharma--that is when they're not arguing
about autism or vaccination--just as you're expressing. The people on
the body building groups are ordering/acquiring scheduled drugs so
they not only have to worry about monetary loss but also that the
drugs might be delivered by the DEA. It's extremely important to them
that the source be reliable and discrete so you'll find long term
posters (check google) with a good track record endorsing or
condemning particular suppliers. Unlike sci.med it's a case of users
helping other users.

AFAIK shoprxonline doesn't deal in scheduled drugs and its main items
are the PDE5 supressors so the place to ask about them is
alt.support.impotence. The same attitude of mutual help prevails on
that group.

The Indian press is a bit skeptical of their own pharma industry.
http://www.blonnet.com/2003/08/03/stories/2003080301260500.htm
http://www.sundayobserver.lk/2003/11/30/new22.html

The Indian Parliament is considering the death penalty for
manufacturers of counterfeit drugs - why?  Apparently because they
kill people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3331985.stm

Here's more.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3261385.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1912170.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1912226.stm
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7412/414-b
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-WHA02.html

The FDA has some pretty specific examples of Canadian drugs that
actually are counterfeits from India.
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/counterfeit/photo3.html

Here is the FDA's policy statement:
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/counterfeit/qa.html

I don't buy the argument that the FDA is intersted in anything more
than patient dafety.  And I think the evidence provided to date
suggests that counterfeit drugs is not a trivial or inconsequential
risk, especially if drugs are purchased internationally over the
internet.

They promote a generic Cialis.  This is, by definition, counterfeit.
No one is licensed to make a generic Cialis anywhere in the world.

I don't think NGs are a good source of anything more than opinion.  I
like the links better.  But if you want medical advice, sci.med has
got to be better than drugs.use.illegal.buffmeupp.

js

And increase Big Pharma's profits.

You'll notice that lots of weasel words such as "unapproved" are used
without saying just what that means. In the case of shoprxonline the
drugs, produced by Indian pharmaceutical giants such as Cipla who also
produce some of the US drugs, are approved...by the Indian government
for use and sale in their country. And since they're exported around
the world and we haven't heard of any fatalities (and Big Pharma IS
watching) I guess they haven't killed too many people.

You'll also notice that most of the fda's complaints concern not
counterfeit drugs but things such as "Drugs with dangerous reactions".
They might conflict with other drugs the customers are taking thereby
cutting both Big Pharma and big medicine out of their super-profits.
It's not too hard to read up on the drug using the same (or better)
sources than your average PCP. See Medscape DrugInfo or Rx.com or
Drugs.com (the PDR).

Shoprxonline is reputable but there are those that aren't. However
asking in sci.med is hardly wise. Try one of the weightlifting groups
or the impotence group for up-to-date info.

...

Sure, if you don't mind counterfeit drugs:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2003/NEW00948.html

Stay away, stay very far away...

I noticed that prescription drugs, such as Cipro, Mevacor or Cialis, are
available at
30% to 50% of the price in the US, if bought by mail order from India. The
website looks just as reputable as most Canadian pharmaceutical websites.

I thought I might try them. Can anyone comment on any problems with ordering
prescription drugs from India?

Example: http://www.shoprxonline.com/srxo-orderinfo.html

Thanks for any input.

--
James
-