Fine with me - you're the one arguing perception and opinion.  Had you
had an argument you would have used data.  Too bad.

I said that India has a huge problem in their pharmaceutical industry
regarding knockoffs and showed you the extent of it.  When a
government is considering legislation as draconian as the death
penalty for counterfeiting drugs - that is a pretty serious problem.

Opinion.  I pointed out that the posters her tend to be better
informed because they have an interest in science and medicine, not
just flat abs.

Had you not cut my statement.

"I would prefer talking to someone who actually has medical training
in
endocrinology and sexual dysfunction."

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Goody for you.  You have every right to live your life in ignorance.
But when you post crap, I'll take the time and post fact.

He's an example of NG stupidity.  

How easy is it for you to make a recommendation about where to source
drugs.  You don't even have a basic understanding of the drugs but you
are willing to tell me that buying them from  India is saf?

Another wonderful example.

You're done.

js

I'm not going to continue this forever; got other things to do.
Moreover after a while it becomes just a silly argument centered
around pedantic you said/I said exchanges and definitions of words.

You think it's horribly risky to buy drugs from outside the US with
the primary argument that they might be counterfeit in the sense of
not containing the purported active ingredients in the quantity
advertised or even containing harmful ingredients. I say the risk of
this is low and well worth taking given the large monetary savings.

I say sci.med is not the place to inquire about these sorts of things
due to the lack of information as to the "street situation" of any
particular supplier and the general hostility towards anything like
this. In addition in the particular examples used (steroids and ED
medication), I say that the knowledge here is not as good as that
found on other NG's particularly body building and impotence
respectively. Despite the patent obviousness of both arms of these
contentions, you continue to maintain somehow that sci.med supplies
endocrinologists and persons with training in sexual dysfunction (the
latter of course is a joke, no?) to give cogent replies to inquiries
about these two subjects.

Well, good for you. Obviously we have widely differing perspectives on
life. Although I'm approximately your age I have contempt for
authority, am willing to take reasonable risks, and relish the
internet as a means of exercising that personal freedom. Having read
some of your past posting history, I think my Ned Flanders comment was
only inaccurate in that Ned is presented as a nice guy.

Some minor additional comments:

Your sarcastic comments about "'Dr' Maus" threw me for a moment. This
didn't occur in sci.med but in sci.med.pharmacy (not just another
thread).

As to your request for a recommendation about which of the three PDE5
suppressors to take why don't you ask all the wonderful medical
expertise on this group who must be just itching to provide you with
their in-depth knowledge of the subject. I don't claim to be a
physician. Anon does though. He's currently dissecting the meaning of
"board certification" with other alleged physicians.

Personally if I were taking all those medications I'd think twice
about adding anything at all.

I worked in a drug store when I was in high school.  

Makes you lilly white and unbiased?  I argued the data.  I posted
credible sources and provided links.  Every statement I made is
supported by facts.

Now, you try the same.  The implied "conflict of interest" strawman is
just that - a strawman.  You can't argue the facts so you go for the
innuendo?  Typical usenet.

Illegal to import except under very strict conditions as I pointed
out.  And that is specific to the importation for experimental use
under an active IND by a registered manufacturer.

Wrong.

What is it about some people that makes them think they know
everything?

Here is the FDA policy on importation of unapproved new drugs:
http://www.fda.gov/ora/import/pipinfo.htm

"The United States Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (Act) (21
U.S.C. section 331) prohibits the interstate shipment (which includes
importation) of unapproved new drugs. Thus, the importation of drugs
that lack FDA approval, whether for personal use or otherwise,
violates the Act. Unapproved new drugs are any drugs, including
foreign-made versions of U.S. approved drugs, that have not been
manufactured in accordance with and pursuant to an FDA approval.

Cialis-generic sold by this Indian website is by definition an
unapproved new drug and it is illegal to import.

So then - if the goods are confiscated yet it isn't illegal to import,
the agency that confiscates the package is guilty of illegal search
and seizure - they would have violated the Fourth Amendment
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html
 

The difference is the FDA.  No, you can never be 100% certain of
product integrity.  And admittedly, the US distribution system has
problems.  However, there is a very distinct paper trail required.
And, the number of instances of counterfeit drugs in the US is
extremely low, as compared to India and as compared with internet
sourced ex-US.

OK - so you base the standard an their ability to package in nice
looking containers drugs that they manufacture under unknown
conditions from API of unkown origin in violation of international
patents.....with the Indian governments stamp of approval?  And all
this because you read it in a magazine?  And no URL to back it up?

Is this before or after you have an adverse drug reaction?

I actually know what I'm talking about.

If someone you didn't know handed you a white looking tablet at a
party and said it was aspirin and you had a headache, would you take
it?

If someone you knew by site handed you a bottle of pills where the
label said it was aspirin but you didn't recognize the brand, would
you take it?

If your best friend handed you a bottle of Bayer aspirin and the pills
inside had the Bayer logo, would you take it?

I gave you the URLs - you do with the information what you like.

I think using anabolic steroids for non-medical conditions is foolish.

I have no idea who anon is.

I would prefer talking to someone who actually has medical training in
endocrinology and sexual dysfunction.

In another thread we had a lively discussion about Cialis and "Dr"
Maus from Germany provided a rendition of how it constricts blood
vessels.  LOL

You make an assumption that the three are identical chemically, but
they are not.  The aproved product labels reflect the clinical data at
the time of submission which is updated at 3 6 12 and every 12 months
thereafter.

Another strawman.

Strawman number 3.

The comparison was between sci.med and
alt.support.drugabuseonmusclebeach.

OK - now tell me a great sage and keeper of all that is ED.  I'm 67
years old, I have no history of heart disease other than some nominal
atrial arrhythmia. For this I take digoxin and coumadin.  And I have
gout so when it flairs up I take naproxyn and when I remember, I take
Zyloprim.  And then again, my wife insists that I take propecia for
that hairline that little bald spot I seem to be developing.

So Doc, which of the 3 PDE5 should I take?

Circumventing laws to make a profit....ok.

That's not what the statement says.  It says you may be getting the
finished dosage form FROM big pharma.  It doesn't say that the APIs
are sourced from the same third party.

It explains how the price difference is possible.  

Wasn't it you who tried baiting folks once before and were summarily
shot down.  Are you trying for round two?

Like I said - it is an unapproved new drug and is illegal to import
into the US.

"We"?  Good - when the Indian government is pushing through
legislation to invoke the death penalty for drug counterfeiters, you
call it chicken little.

Now, how about a URL that shows just how safe Indian drugs are?

Why?  Are you one of those sensitive types?

js

 

 

Before I reply to this I'd like you to answer a question: Are you
employed or have you ever been employed by any US drug company or by
any person or organization contracted to them or in any way
representing them or by the FDA or by any law enforcement group or by
any propaganda group for the US drug industry or are you or have you
any relatives or yourself employed in or owning any US pharmacy or do
you own any stock in any corporation that would be likely to benefit
by the reduction in import of pharmaceuticals from outside the US?

You sure sound like you do. Before you ask, personally I can answer no
to the above unless one of the mutual funds of my 401K plans owns
stock in a pharmaceutical company. Nor do I own or benefit in any way
(other than as a consumer) from purchasing drugs from outside the US
(e.g. by having an interest in Shoprxonline).

Not illegal to purchase; illegal to sell. Big difference. No risk to
the purchaser from legal action unless he resells or the drugs are
scheduled substances. Part of the reason you need to ask in the
various groups is to determine what the supplier does if the goods are
seized. Shoprxonline retries or refunds your money if the goods don't
arrive. They guarantee delivery. (These people should pay me a
commission)

What makes you think the labels of Pfizer, Lilly and Bayer on the US
drugs are real? In fact there was a piece on (IIRC) 60 minutes where
that was exactly the problem; the wholesaler was supplying counterfeit
(in my sense) drugs with seemingly valid brand names to the
pharmacies.

Well known. See websites. The head of Cipla was interviewed in The New
Yorker about his offer to supply (counterfeit in your sense) AIDS
drugs to South Africa. Drugs are supplied in bubble packs with the
Indian government's seal, not in baggies as is the case with the
home-grown variety.

You'll soon find out if the Viagra or Cialis or Levitra is fake.

The fact that you quote abbreviations such as NDA and API makes me
think that you have more than a concerned amateur status in this
discussion.

The real thing in its reaction. I wouldn't recognize a fake $20 bill
either (without lots of work) but if the supermarket takes it, it's
real.

 

But who are unwilling to share their knowledge and/or have a very
conservative view (i.e. they're good little drones) of treatment or
they simply don't know very much about the particular condition. Do
you really think anon (to take an example) knows as much about steroid
use as a biochemist working in the body builder area? Or Howard as
much as some guy suffering from ED and who has made the required
investigation? For example there's an erroneous (or incomplete
statement) in the drug contraindications for Cialis and Levitra but
not for Viagra. Maybe one of those people you think are so wonderful
can tell us what it is. Nope, the horror stories about the MD activity
and lack of knowledge would boggle the mind.

I presume you've never smoked pot or hashish or used --god
forbid--cocaine? And you doubtless wear a hard hat, and eye and ear
protection when you open a can. Seat belt, air bag, full body harness,
and roll bar--and keep it under 10 mph when you drive a car. Is your
real name Ned Flanders?

Most PCP's know squat about the two subjects we're discussing here.
The body builders can speak for themselves but for ED there's basic
information on Mescape, information about the drugs on MedScape
DrugInfo, Rx.com, Drugs.com, and cutting edge information on Medline.
Anyone with a computer can know more than the average PCP in a couple
of hours.

Not at all. It simply says that we've got some stupid drug laws and
Shoprxonline is assisting the buyer in circumventing them.

Many US companies drug companies manufacture or subcontract the
manufacture of the base to other countries.

Let's see. In 2000 I priced bulk Sildenafil Citrate from China at
$3,000 a key (minimum order). At the maximum dosage (100mg) that works
out to 30 cents for "generic viagra". Add (say) 20 cents inactive
ingredients and rent or buy a pill pressing machine or make an alcohol
suspension (even cheaper) and you have a base cost of $0.50 for which
Shoprxonline are asking $3. Big markup eh? But it pales into
insignificance when you compare it to the real stuff, Pfizer's Viagra
from drugstore.com at $8.66. And that's cheap. Some real bricks and
mortar pharmacies are asking $13.00.

But Viagra is passe today. Lilly's Cialis is strangely priced exactly
the same as Pfizer's Viagra at $8.66 (and they say that there's
competition in the pharmaceutical industry <g>) but, depending on the
level of risk you want to take, "generic cialis" can be had for as low
as 0.50 per 20mg (not Shoprxonline)--tablet or in alcohol suspension
at around $1.00.

Not a few dollars. Don't want to take any risks in life, fine, pay
Pfizer or Lilly their extortionate mark up (save the arguments about
R&D); if you're willing to take some risk you can save lots of money.
And we went through why those Chicken Little URL's you quoted don't
apply or are simply self-serving.

Save the insults too.

So is the law.

So it isn't Cialis at all then, is it.  And as an unapproved new drug,
tadanafil-generic is illegal to import to the US unless it is labeled
as clinical supplies under an active IND.

I gave you plenty of evidence that the pharmaceutical industry in
India has a significant problem with counterfeit drugs.  What makes
you think that the Cipla or Ranbaxy labels are genuine?  What makes
you think Cipla and Ranbaxy are quality manufacturers?  What makes you
so confident that what this website is selling isn't fake?

As far as I could tell - and I looked - Cipla does not have a single
approved NDA - not one.  As such, the FDA would not be required to
inspect their manufacturing facilities.  They do have a thriving raw
materials capability but API approval is not the same as an approved
DMF.

Even if the company is as good as you say, there is no evidence that
the content of the package you receive actually came from them.  In
the case of Indian counterfeits, it is reasonable to think that
imitating the local market leader is a viable strategy to pursue.  If
you were to receive a drug with a Cipra label, would you recognize it
as fake?  What would you compare to?

What you are likely to get are people who actually know something
about science and medicine.

You want medical advice from someone who is breaking the law and
misusing drugs?  To each his own.

This is what you said -
"Shoprxonline is reputable but there are those that aren't."
and you know this because soemone on an NG told you so.

Here you go - this is one of this reputable company's policies:

"In order to make your shopping experience hassle free, our qualified
on-staff physician will issue a prescription for each order so we can
legally fill and ship your prescription."

This doesn't raise any questions about ethics in your mind?

And this:

"U.S. medicine names are for reference only. You are purchasing
equivalent medicines from India. The medicines are made under strict
regulations and often by the same pharmaceutical companies that
manufacture in the U.S. such as Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline and Bayer and
the facilities are FDA approved."

Do you actually believe this is true?  The part about them being
manufactured by big pharma and then labeled locally and sold at
pennies on the dollar?

Or this: "All of our generic medicines are manufacturered in FDA
approved facilities and come in factory sealed packaging with
expiration dates."

Buying offshore over the internet, especially from India, is a foolish
and dangerous thing to do.  I gave you a dozen sources that provide
evidence of the risk - from FDA to BBC to the Indian government
itself.

Are you really that cavalier to suggest that the risk is worth the few
dollars you might save?  Health is about the only thing you can't fix
with money once you screw it up.

And then to argue that it's ok because you have a weightlifter NG
following that has identified the good ones?

That's pretty dumb, in my opinion.  But you are entitled - go for it
and become another example that Darwin was right.

js

If that's what you regard as counterfeit, you're correct but pedantic.
As you're well aware advertising Tadalafil or Sildenafil Citrate is
likely to produce a big "Huh?" from the prospective purchaser so these
companies (all of them) use the US brand names and add the word
"generic". Last time I checked Lilly doesn't sell Cialis in capsule
form either.

By "counterfeit" in connection with medication I (and I suspect most
people) understand that instead of Tadalafil you'd be getting a
capsule that contained no or insufficient active ingredient. Most of
your URL's in fact use counterfeiting in this sense and those from
India are certainly not referring to the products of Cipla or Ranbaxy.

Hmmm, don't think so. All you're likely to get here is the pure
conservative voice of Big Pharma--that is when they're not arguing
about autism or vaccination--just as you're expressing. The people on
the body building groups are ordering/acquiring scheduled drugs so
they not only have to worry about monetary loss but also that the
drugs might be delivered by the DEA. It's extremely important to them
that the source be reliable and discrete so you'll find long term
posters (check google) with a good track record endorsing or
condemning particular suppliers. Unlike sci.med it's a case of users
helping other users.

AFAIK shoprxonline doesn't deal in scheduled drugs and its main items
are the PDE5 supressors so the place to ask about them is
alt.support.impotence. The same attitude of mutual help prevails on
that group.

The Indian press is a bit skeptical of their own pharma industry.
http://www.blonnet.com/2003/08/03/stories/2003080301260500.htm
http://www.sundayobserver.lk/2003/11/30/new22.html

The Indian Parliament is considering the death penalty for
manufacturers of counterfeit drugs - why?  Apparently because they
kill people.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3331985.stm

Here's more.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3261385.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1912170.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1912226.stm
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/327/7412/414-b
http://www.who.int/inf-pr-2000/en/pr2000-WHA02.html

The FDA has some pretty specific examples of Canadian drugs that
actually are counterfeits from India.
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/counterfeit/photo3.html

Here is the FDA's policy statement:
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/counterfeit/qa.html

I don't buy the argument that the FDA is intersted in anything more
than patient dafety.  And I think the evidence provided to date
suggests that counterfeit drugs is not a trivial or inconsequential
risk, especially if drugs are purchased internationally over the
internet.

They promote a generic Cialis.  This is, by definition, counterfeit.
No one is licensed to make a generic Cialis anywhere in the world.

I don't think NGs are a good source of anything more than opinion.  I
like the links better.  But if you want medical advice, sci.med has
got to be better than drugs.use.illegal.buffmeupp.

js

And increase Big Pharma's profits.

You'll notice that lots of weasel words such as "unapproved" are used
without saying just what that means. In the case of shoprxonline the
drugs, produced by Indian pharmaceutical giants such as Cipla who also
produce some of the US drugs, are approved...by the Indian government
for use and sale in their country. And since they're exported around
the world and we haven't heard of any fatalities (and Big Pharma IS
watching) I guess they haven't killed too many people.

You'll also notice that most of the fda's complaints concern not
counterfeit drugs but things such as "Drugs with dangerous reactions".
They might conflict with other drugs the customers are taking thereby
cutting both Big Pharma and big medicine out of their super-profits.
It's not too hard to read up on the drug using the same (or better)
sources than your average PCP. See Medscape DrugInfo or Rx.com or
Drugs.com (the PDR).

Shoprxonline is reputable but there are those that aren't. However
asking in sci.med is hardly wise. Try one of the weightlifting groups
or the impotence group for up-to-date info.

...

Sure, if you don't mind counterfeit drugs:
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2003/NEW00948.html

Stay away, stay very far away...

I noticed that prescription drugs, such as Cipro, Mevacor or Cialis, are
available at
30% to 50% of the price in the US, if bought by mail order from India. The
website looks just as reputable as most Canadian pharmaceutical websites.

I thought I might try them. Can anyone comment on any problems with ordering
prescription drugs from India?

Example: http://www.shoprxonline.com/srxo-orderinfo.html

Thanks for any input.

--
James
-