Medical Forum / General / Vision / November 2009
Color Correcting Lens Coatings?
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Joe - 06 Nov 2009 18:32 GMT I haven't visited this ng in a few years, but...
A number of years ago, I remember reading about a new development that would allow (partially?) color blind people to discriminate colors better. I believe it used thin film coatings to selectively attenuate the dominant colors, allowing for a better color balance.
Has anything else happened on this front? I suppose the original inventor went by the wayside, but the concept is good. The biggest drawback I can imagine would be the fragility of the coating.
I was reminded of the idea last week while on a drive in the mountains. I own a pair of copper-flashed blue blocker clip-ons, and I could really enjoy the fall foliage. When I removed the clip-ons, the red colors disappeared almost entirely, and the yellows were dulled. It would be nice to see a more accurate color mix with my regular glasses.
Joe
Mike Tyner - 06 Nov 2009 18:41 GMT > It would be nice to see a more accurate color mix with my regular > glasses. You have a curious definition for "accurate."
Take a photo through your copper-flashed blue-blockers.
Color blindness has been treated by using a red filter in one eye. This patented process doesn't modify the "color balance" but instead creates a trick of perception where colors can be distinguished somewhat better. It's no cure.
-MT
Lelouch Lamperouge - 06 Nov 2009 18:54 GMT > It's no cure. YOU SAID IT DOC.
Joe - 06 Nov 2009 20:12 GMT >> It would be nice to see a more accurate color mix with my regular >> glasses. > >You have a curious definition for "accurate." No, if I am deficient in my ability to see red, then either by increasing the "amount" of red, or by decreasing the non-red, the color balance would be more accurate *as perceived by me*.
>Take a photo through your copper-flashed blue-blockers. OK, I don't have a camera handy, but I expect to see a decrease in blue (which should make the blue "darker", trending to being dark gray to black), which would cause other colors to be more predominant (in the mix).
>Color blindness has been treated by using a red filter in one eye. This >patented process doesn't modify the "color balance" but instead creates a >trick of perception where colors can be distinguished somewhat better. It's >no cure. And whites would look red - definitely not a cure.
So how do my clip-ons work? My original "test target" was an old Coke sign (red on black). I could not distinguish the letters from the background, but with the clip-ons, the contrast was excellent, and the red looked red. Green lawns look brighter green. Yellows seem about the same, but the blue skies look dark gray - clouds still appear white, though. It may be a "trick of perception", but I can distinguish colors a *lot* better. It's like a whole new outdoor world to me, and is as good a cure as I'm likely to get in my lifetime.
My wife, who has normal color vision, is totally unimpressed with the view though my glasses.
Joe
Mike Tyner - 07 Nov 2009 04:02 GMT >>You have a curious definition for "accurate." > > No, if I am deficient in my ability to see red, then either by > increasing the "amount" of red, or by decreasing the non-red, the > color balance would be more accurate *as perceived by me*. That's logical but it's not as helpful as you might like, for "accurately" distinguishing one sock from another, or for reproducing a pattern like this: http://www.normankoren.com/ColorChecker_sRGB.jpg
> And whites would look red - definitely not a cure. Remember I said red filter in *one eye*.
> It's like a whole new outdoor world > to me, and is as good a cure as I'm likely to get in my lifetime. That's a subjective perception, an esthetic judgement. Attributes like "accurate" don't really apply. Subjective perceptions are plenty susceptible to hype.
> My wife, who has normal color vision, is totally unimpressed with the > view though my glasses. Many people with normal vision are impressed by the "blue-blocker" effect. It's why shooters wear yellow. But the only measurable improvements occur because the spectrum is *reduced*.
The color tests given by the FAA and the military and the phone company don't show much improvement with binocular filters.
-MT
atlieb@gmail.com - 09 Nov 2009 13:13 GMT > The color tests given by the FAA and the military and the phone company > don't show much improvement with binocular filters. Which I found fascinating as you can't "fake" not being color blind.
There was one chart that I simply couldn't see the line to trace on the chart. I passed all other charts with flying colors (pun intended). I asked about this to the AME and he said if you were color blind you would see different numbers or trace a different line then a person not color blind on the very same chart.
Of course don't get me on the binocular test as I fail that miserably (no stereoscopic vision)
Salmon Egg - 09 Nov 2009 16:14 GMT In article <7ef5bee1-d16a-4bcd-b25d-b209ca42d7ae@r3g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> > The color tests given by the FAA and the military and the phone company > > don't show much improvement with binocular filters. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Of course don't get me on the binocular test as I fail that miserably > (no stereoscopic vision) I do remember, before I lost some of my cone vision, that there were some Ishihara plates that gave me trouble. With some concentration, However, I was able to make out the correct color. IIRC, there were some plates that could make out , with concentration, not only the normal number but also the abnormal color.
This gets me to the following question. The spectral distribution of printed plates is going to differ from the spectral distribution on a computer screen, How significant can those differences be in the diagnosis of color blindness?
Bill
 Signature As the years go by, dying just before having to fill out a tax return has merit.
Liz - 07 Nov 2009 06:36 GMT > >Color blindness has been treated by using a red filter in one eye. This > >patented process doesn't modify the "color balance" but instead creates a > >trick of perception where colors can be distinguished somewhat better. Fascinating!!! I think this is what birds do (bear with me). They have drops of colored oil in each cone, which sharply cuts off the spectrum it can pick up on one side of its curve. This is supposed to allow the bird to distinguish more colors, or different colors more easily. It must only work if the brain somehow sorts the input from each kind of cone...
> And whites would look red - definitely not a cure. I think it would only let you distinguish them because you have two eyes and are getting different input from each. If you put the same thing over both eyes, it might not work. If you then integrated the two images, I'd expect whites to have a pink cast... or whatever you see as pink.... (sorry, this is really interesting).
It sounds like your glasses are doing whatever they do in some other different way, perhaps by enhancing some colors and dimming others. This would produce an artistic effect as well as a practical one. I'm with your wife - I distinguish colors less well through amber sunglasses.
You might be able to get clear glasses tinted to many different colors. A company called BPI makes all kinds of lens dyes that (I gather) one's optician can order for lenses. Probably expensive.
cheers, Liz (wishing I could see like a bird)
Salmon Egg - 07 Nov 2009 12:28 GMT In article <b9a6d9ca-9114-4ed5-ae0a-6c23c79c8935@k4g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> > >Color blindness has been treated by using a red filter in one eye. This > > >patented process doesn't modify the "color balance" but instead creates a > > >trick of perception where colors can be distinguished somewhat better. In this quote note that "color balance" is not defined.
"Treatment" is not the right word to use."Modified" or "compensated" might be a better word to use. As treatment, the method is equivalent to treating myopia with glasses. Yjr best you can say is that myopia is compensated. It certainly not cured.
> Fascinating!!! I think this is what birds do (bear with me). They > have drops of colored oil in each cone, which sharply cuts off the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > colors. A company called BPI makes all kinds of lens dyes that (I > gather) one's optician can order for lenses. Probably expensive. Aside from my self education my best knowledge of color vision arises from being lucky enough to hear several lectures by Richard Feynman. At one public lecture with demonstrations, he went into Maxwell's three color theory. Based on that, color blindness, Land's retinex theory, colored lights casting shadows with colors not present, and two-strip Cinecolor or Technicolor are readily explained.
One demonstration showed how what seemed to be projected brown light was really just yellow light with a different relative illumination compared to the background. The brain reinterprets color! There is no brown light.
For these and other reasons, Feynman considered COLOR MATCHING to be the key way to quantify color vision of "normal" and other people. Different normals tend to be be fairly consistent matching colors while calling them with different names.
I do not make all my assertions on color on authority alone. On occasion I have worked on colorimetry (for detectors) and densitometry. All those fancy formulas in the books I used seem to be self-consistent.
Getting back to the topic at hand, a filter upsets color matching. If you like that upset, use one or more different filters. In the end, I cannot understand how any filters can end up changing the color experience substantially.
Bill
 Signature As the years go by, dying just before having to fill out a tax return has merit.
Salmon Egg - 06 Nov 2009 22:23 GMT > I haven't visited this ng in a few years, but... > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Joe I am not a vision professional.
You do not state if you are color blind or what kind of color capability you do have. Presumably, my guess would be that you are missing one kind out of three kinds of cones. It is true that a color filter could make it possible to tell the difference between two colors that are confused with each other. You can expect such a filter to nake other pairs of colors indistinguishable.
I would expect that there would be very little new available to help out. The technology of thin-film filters was well worked out decades ago. There is enough information available so that it is fairly straightforward to figure out, with a bit of calculus and modest computer power. which colors would be easily confused for a given kind of color blindness when a particular kind of filter is used.
Bill
 Signature As the years go by, dying just before having to fill out a tax return has merit.
Joe - 07 Nov 2009 01:50 GMT >> I haven't visited this ng in a few years, but... >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >with each other. You can expect such a filter to nake other pairs of >colors indistinguishable. I have "red-green" color blindness (protanomaly?). In every test I've taken (the Ishihara tests) I fail the red-green part; even if someone tells me the answer, I can't see it - at all. However, I *do* see red & green (green does OK). Red is the biggest problem, especially if the lighting is low. I absolutely can't see the red colors of the foliage during a drive (I do better if I'm standing right next to a dogwood, e.g.). With the clip-ons, the colors just jump out at me - at least comparatively speaking. Only blue suffers. Clever folks who make their web pages red on black produce entirely black pages for me; although I can see a blush of red, I cannot see enough to discern any letters at all. I'm an electronic technician, BTW, so it has been a bit of an issue, especially in the past.
>I would expect that there would be very little new available to help >out. The technology of thin-film filters was well worked out decades >ago. There is enough information available so that it is fairly >straightforward to figure out, with a bit of calculus and modest >computer power. which colors would be easily confused for a given kind >of color blindness when a particular kind of filter is used. The information I had seen a few years ago may have been pure hype, but I inferred that it was interference filter layers tailored to an individual's color shortcomings. Made sense at the time, the trick may have been the ability to coat lenses on a one-off basis (economically).
Also see my previous reply.
Joe
Salmon Egg - 07 Nov 2009 05:22 GMT > The information I had seen a few years ago may have been pure hype, > but I inferred that it was interference filter layers tailored to an > individual's color shortcomings. Made sense at the time, the trick may > have been the ability to coat lenses on a one-off basis > (economically). My understanding of color vision is based upon Maxwellian three-color theory. Although developed over a century ago, this theory has been augmented but not fundamentally changed over the years.
Normal color vision involves three kinds of cones. Each kind has a different visual pigment and each kind generates nerve impulses in proportion (roughly) to how much light gets absorbed by that pigment. With the three pigments, there are three signals that get sent to the brain. It is the ratios amongst those signals that the brain interprets as color,
Because it is impossible for me to know how you perceive a color, most experiments on color perception are based upon matching of colors. You might throw in wether a color would have to be redder or bluer to match a color, only the matching gives an objective result.
In your (Joe) case you only have two kinds of visual pigments. All a filter can do is to take two colors that appear match to you and distort the color to where they do not match. It would also be possible to take colors that do not match and use a filter to make them match. That would make it possible for you to distinguish traffic signals from one another, but that can be done in other ways. For example, the red light is above the green light.
In any event, all a filter can do is to change the relative signal strength of the receptors from what they would otherwise be. I cannot understand how such change can end up giving you a richer range of color compared to what you can see already.
Bill
 Signature As the years go by, dying just before having to fill out a tax return has merit.
Joe - 07 Nov 2009 20:01 GMT >> The information I had seen a few years ago may have been pure hype, >> but I inferred that it was interference filter layers tailored to an [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > >Bill OK, I am not *completely* color-blind to red - as I mentioned before, I do see red, just not very well. If the ambient light is brighter, I see red better, but if the ambient light is dim, red doesn't show up, so I am left with the impression that the color is black (no color). "Brighter" reds - more saturation - are easier for me to see than reds that are darker, muddier, browner, etc. I believe that's why the filtering out of non-red colors has an effect - less muddying of the mix makes the red more obvious. So perhaps I have all three pigments, but the response of the red-sensing one is attenuated for whatever reason. So when wearing the clip-ons, the other (shorter) wavelengths are reduced, leaving the red present in proportionally greater amounts, and producing a more red-emphasized response to my brain. That's my conception of the solution, anyway. (The clip-ons would be a good solution, except they are too dark for indoor use - being sunglasses - and they are cheap Chinese knock-offs, so the lens material introduces some distortion as well.)
Traffic lights can be a problem. If the sky is very bright, I have a lot of trouble seeing the red; it just isn't there, so the light appears to be off (usually the sky isn't so bright as to cause problems for me, but on a really sunny day...). If I don't see a green or a yellow light, the logical conclusion is that the light is red. There is an intersection in an adjacent town that has a light that only operates when trains come through; if I happen by on a sunny day, I assume the light is red, and have to take my cues from the general traffic flow (they oughta just leave it blinking yellow). LED traffic lights are a little easier for me to see when red.
People like to ask me what color does red look like - well, basically it looks red, unless conditions aren't favorable for me, then it doesn't "look" at all - usually it appears black, but with muted shades of red, the color appears sort of brown. Also, some shades of purple seem primarily blue.
As an aside, a while back I put a prism in a window, blocked out the rest of the light and viewed the spectrum. I placed a mark where the red disappeared, and my wife did the same; her mark was a good distance from mine - into the "non-color" area. I used the tuning capability of a spectrophotometer at work to see where my cut-off is. Of course, it's more of a rapid fall-off, but I could see nothing past 680nm, IIRC.
This post started out as nothing more than a question about the availability of "selective color-heightening" glasses. I still don't know if they are available. The added discussion, as usual, has been a nice side benefit. Is Feynman's color lecture available in print? I know that Dover has published a lot of his lectures recently. My main resource has been Nassau's "The Physics And Chemistry Of Color". I guess I need to get it out and brush up.
I want to thank you and Mike for your input, and if there is more forthcoming, I will read it (and comment where appropriate) as well.
Joe
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