Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2009

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

For Bill -- Reading Chapter 6

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Otis - 23 Jun 2009 02:42 GMT
Dear Bill,

As a Ph.D. Engineer, you are going to be interested in scientific
facts, and not all the "fluff" that exists on this site.

To read Chapter 6 properly, copy it and then paste it into a "text"
file.

The quality of the graph will be restored.

This is a pure and objective test and confirmation that the
fundamental eye changes its refractive STATE with an applied "delta"
to its average enviroment.

You also ask for a test of the "null hypothesis", versus the "research
hypothesis".

Engineering/Scientific Analysis Best,

Otis
Otis - 23 Jun 2009 03:05 GMT
Dear Bill,

Subject: A direct confirmation for the effect a minus lens has on the
fundamental eye.

Here are the results of that scientific test of a population of
natural eyes.

http://myopiafree.i-see.org/FundEye.html

When I wrote the analysis of the primate eye (Francis Young's
experiment) the above data was not available.

It is now.

This strongly confirms Soon's general graph FOR PREVENTING ENTRY AT
THE THRESHOLD.

I believe in looking at the facts themselves, as an engineer.

This is convincing to me, as to the dynamic behavior of all natural
eyes -- to the extent that we can have a repeatable scientific
experiment.

But you are free to form your judgment.

If you wish to contact the author (Dr. Smith) I think that could be
arranged -- as a matter of pure science -- if you don't believe these
results.

Enjoy,

> Dear Bill,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Otis
Neil Brooks - 23 Jun 2009 06:26 GMT
From "Soon I Can See"

"Don't Let Your Children Become The Victims of Optical Industry's
Business Greed!!!"

[Translation: give your money to ME, instead.]

[Or ... to Uncle Otie -- who -- with nearly ZERO overhead -- takes in
$17.00 for every book he can scare you into buying.  That may be as
much as the net profit of nearly every eye doctor performing an exam.

Theirs is a better model than yours, Mike: zero risk, pure profit.

85% didn't need you anyway, and the other 15% -- well -- you just
blame the failure on them.]
Salmon Egg - 23 Jun 2009 12:52 GMT
In article
<5377d1d3-ba24-4875-8a14-14bf7cb1719a@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

> As a Ph.D. Engineer, you are going to be interested in scientific
> facts, and not all the "fluff" that exists on this site.

It is not feasible for me to read everything that is of interest. In
fact, my eyesight is not all that great. My problem is not directly
related to myopia.

I have come pretty much to the same conclusion you did. Pleas do not
continue selling the concept to me. It is now time to get experimental
fact. Your choice of the Soon curves seems to show the path to
understanding. It does seem, as some others have argued, you are more
interested in controversy than in fact.

The idea of measuring refraction as a function of timer correlated to
the steps in corrective power strikes me as a dream topic for someone
interested in the subject. One questionable publication is just not
sufficient. IT MUST BE REPLICATED FIRST!

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Otis - 23 Jun 2009 13:03 GMT
Dear Bill,

Let me pose this analogy.

You wrote your Ph.D. thesis on a difficult subject.

It was written in a technical style, and few layman would ever
understand it.

If you posted it on sci.med.vision -- it would be ignored, or "not
understood".

Plus-prevention (as Stirling Colgate did it), is not easy.  The
average person not only has NO INTEREST but, as you have seen on
sci.med.vision is rabidly hostile to plus prevention.

There is no way you can expect Soon See to "overcome" this rabid
hostility.  Why would you expect Soon to do it???

The only issue is this:

Was Dr. Colgate's report (clearing Snellen can changing refractive
STATE from slight negaitve to positive) correct as Science.

As far as I am concerned, the primate data (bi-directional response to
an applied -3 and +3 diopter lens) is SCIENTIFIC CONFIRMATION.

In as much as the general public will not understand your Ph.D.
dissertation, I equally would not expect people who are hostile to
Soon's graph, to "understand" any of it.

SOON'S GRAPH:

Let me add that this graph came from a Dr. Flitcroft, who publishe a
more detailed analysis and discussion.

So don't think or say that ONLY Soon publishes this analysis.  There
is great depth in this "curve" of his -- but due to the hostility of
the public, you truly can not expect him to accomplish successful
prevention.

Just read the remarks of the resident nit-wit -- as final proof for
that issue.

Best,

Otis

> In article
> <5377d1d3-ba24-4875-8a14-14bf7cb17...@h28g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> --
> Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.
Salmon Egg - 23 Jun 2009 13:52 GMT
In article
<88fad1af-c1db-48c9-ae4f-2dc74a51e0a4@k15g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

> Plus-prevention (as Stirling Colgate did it), is not easy.  The
> average person not only has NO INTEREST but, as you have seen on
> sci.med.vision is rabidly hostile to plus prevention.

You still are missing the point. What is the the process that your cure
is trying to correct. You are trying, to use an analogy, to prevent
heart attacks before you have shown that blood circulates. Maybe eating
foxglove will help, but you still would not know what you are doing.

Your Soon  posts show a clear path toward understanding what is
happening. If it has not yet been established within the biological
literature, it is a great research topic. Even if someone else proposed
it, it needs competent replication. That is it!

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Mike Tyner - 23 Jun 2009 14:01 GMT
> it needs competent replication.

You have to plicate first, before you can replicate.

-MT
Otis - 23 Jun 2009 14:26 GMT
Dear Bill,

I have NO PROBLEM with instituting a preventive effort.

But it would have to be a person of wisdom, who could couple his
desire success (and ONLY from -1 diopter) to a professional goal.

The nature of plus-prevention, is that the person must do it correctly
UNDER HIS CONTROL.

Do you think, for instance, that Neil D. Brooks would be involved in a
preventive study conducted by Soon????

If you do -- please explain how that would even be possible.

But, yes, provided each person in the study would read Dr. Colgates
analysis and obvious success, as well as the
primate data (before there was even A START to the preventive study)
then I believe that a professional could reproduce
Dr. Colgates success.

I will post a proposed study for true prevention for engineering/
pilots (at -1 diopter) who have the greatest INTEREST and
above all  else  INTELLIGENT MOTIVATION for it.

But there is no hope at all for people who wish to "trash" the primate
data that I posted.

Yes, the minus is indeed POWERFUL AND IMPRESSIVE FOR THE SUPERFICAL.

If you want it -- I certainly will never stand in your way and you
lunge for it.

In fact, I would provide you with your own trial lens kit, and you can
"prescribe" a minus for yourself if you love it that much.

But I use a trial-lens kit as a scientific measurement tool, not as a
"prescription device".

The primate eye data (response to plus and minus lens) makes the issue
final (on a SCIENTIFIC LEVEL) for me.

For all others -- well they are just confused -- at best.

Otis

> In article
> <88fad1af-c1db-48c9-ae4f-2dc74a51e...@k15g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> --
> Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.
Neil Brooks - 23 Jun 2009 15:42 GMT
Bill's getting classic Otis -- front row seats.

Remember: it's easy to claim your 'preventive methods" work when the
data shows that 85% of the kids weren't getting myopic, anyway.

Then, you just have to insult the remaining 15% -- saying they were
lazy, stupid, ignorant, or immature (what he's saying about his dear
niece, Joy Benson, apparently).

Quite a scam, eh?
Salmon Egg - 24 Jun 2009 01:26 GMT
In article
<16d6b2bc-5fef-4fff-b5c0-90cea944f206@i28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> Bill's getting classic Otis -- front row seats.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Quite a scam, eh?

Intricacy does not mean uselessness. If that were the case, there would
be many more dead AIDS victims. The way understand it, AIDS went from
being an almost certain death to a nasty but treatable disease. That is
because an intricate drug taking regime appears to work.

Progressive myopia may not be as nasty as AIDS but it may need at least
as intricate a process for curing. That does not mean dumping the idea.

I think the main scientific idea to be decided first is: Does using
negative correction lead to increased positive refractive error. After
all the controversy here, I still do not know the opinions of major
posters here. For example, does Mike Tyner merely deny the benefit of
Otis's proposed treatment but admit to negative lens contribution to
progressive myopia?

I believe negative lens correction does accelerate positive refractive
error. At this point, I think that experiment has already verified that.
I am not ready to seek the cure yet based upon known science. The Soon
curve brought up by Otis seems to be a good vehicle for scientific
testing without harming participants any more than they are being harmed
by "best practice."

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Mike Tyner - 24 Jun 2009 15:00 GMT
> all the controversy here, I still do not know the opinions of major
> posters here. For example, does Mike Tyner merely deny the benefit of
> Otis's proposed treatment

Oh pulease. I'm relatively unimportant. It's the retinologists and your
kids' ophthalmologist and pediatrician who "deny the benefit". I don't think
they read the same journals that Otis reads. I could be wrong.

> but admit to negative lens contribution to
> progressive myopia?

Oh I will, as soon as the FDA says it happens.

> I believe negative lens correction does accelerate positive refractive
> error. At this point, I think that experiment has already verified that.

Even if Francis Young could never replicate their results?

> I am not ready to seek the cure yet based upon known science. The Soon
> curve brought up by Otis seems to be a good vehicle for scientific
> testing without harming participants any more than they are being harmed
> by "best practice."

So, the Soon curve isn't imaginary? You've seen the data?

Test question, very relevant to anyone with a license:  Why are the benefits
of wearing plus so hard to measure?

Why are the Oakley-Young results so hard to replicate?

Why is the accellerating effect of glasses so hard to measure?

-MT
Salmon Egg - 24 Jun 2009 17:59 GMT
> > all the controversy here, I still do not know the opinions of major
> > posters here. For example, does Mike Tyner merely deny the benefit of
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> -MT

This post reflects my dilemma. I am not asserting the Soon curve as
fact, I do assert that if it can be shown to be fact by means of
competent experimental replication, then we will have a basis of how to
intervene to limit progression of myopia.

Let me ask the following question for which I want a yes or no answer,
Does the preponderance of scientific evidence show that negative
corrective lens use accelerates progression of myopia? I want to leave
talk of cure for another time.

My interest in the Soon curve is that it is a very specific statement of
fact that is subject to statistical testing. I am willing to start out
with it being considered it unlikely for many reasons including possible
scientific fraud. That does not diminish the promise that taking the
data to support or refute it will lead to useful scientific knowledge.

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Neil Brooks - 24 Jun 2009 18:06 GMT
> Let me ask the following question for which I want a yes or no answer,
> Does the preponderance of scientific evidence show that negative
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> scientific fraud. That does not diminish the promise that taking the
> data to support or refute it will lead to useful scientific knowledge.

Bill-

To the extent that you're interested and/or physically able, I'd
recommend this as a good source of basic info on the entire debate:

 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309040817

Also, take a look at this study -- one of the ones that solidified a
few elements of my "protocol."

 http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/i-see/message/17660

Even if you DID torture your macaque/baby chicken/shrew, with
unnecessary glasses ... you just have to let the things run around
outside without them -- as kids/people SHOULD do, regardless -- and
the damage is undone.

These are the exact issues -- hugely relevant issues -- that Otis
actively ignores.
Salmon Egg - 25 Jun 2009 03:46 GMT
In article
<33d8763c-a70e-4208-8bde-687c90f82daf@y33g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> To the extent that you're interested and/or physically able, I'd
> recommend this as a good source of basic info on the entire debate:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> These are the exact issues -- hugely relevant issues -- that Otis
> actively ignores.

Interesting as these references may be, I did not receive a yes/no
answer yet.

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Neil Brooks - 25 Jun 2009 04:01 GMT
> Interesting as these references may be, I did not receive a yes/no
> answer yet.

At least he seemed to address the actual question that you asked.

That's a rarity, if not unprecedented.

I've known numerous people in my life who wore minus lenses since
childhood, and -- despite early progression in their myopia -- their
Rx stabilized and remained unchanged (+/- 0.25d either way, depending
on who did the refraction) for decades -- all the way through
presbyopia.

My wife and my brother are two such examples.  Both wore their glasses
for all waking hours.  Each wore them all the way through undergrad.
My wife wore hers all the way through grad school.

They're each roughly -3.25d, though my wife finally DID have PRK (and
couldn't be more thrilled with her result).

I've researched eyes and vision for decades.  I've never seen anything
that would lead me to believe that minus lenses accelerate myopia
progression.

That said -- and I'll repeat myself, here -- my "protocol" offers
tested and/or perfectly logical solutions to EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE
POSSIBLE PROBLEM that the likes of Otis contends minus lenses might
cause.

And ... again ... as somebody who has suffered from accommodative
spasm issues for decades, I know a great deal about this subject.

The sort of myopia that Otis (and other advocates of Natural Vision
Improvement who are NOT insane (as he is)) seeks to forestall is
accommodative myopia (a/k/a pseudomyopia).

I've never seen any evidence that pseudomyopia causes axial-length
myopia.  Repeating myself yet again: if it truly happens, then it
surely should have happened in my case.

It didn't.

I forgot which OD first proposed the analogy, but ... it's perfect:
blaming the minus lens for myopia progression is like blaming that
first barber for a child's hair continuing to grow....

The current opinion of mainstream vision research is basically this:
there is no evidence that appropriate correction or over-correction of
myopia hastens myopia progression.

There has been at least ONE credible study that showed that UNDER-
CORRECTION of myopia (in effect, what Otis advocates) DOES ACCELERATE
myopic progression.

That's MY "yes or no" answer to your question ;-)
Salmon Egg - 25 Jun 2009 14:27 GMT
In article
<33d8763c-a70e-4208-8bde-687c90f82daf@y33g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,

> To the extent that you're interested and/or physically able, I'd
> recommend this as a good source of basic info on the entire debate:

I was looking for a yes/no answer to a specific question. I no yes/no is
to be forthcoming say you do not want to answer the question. Please do
not send me on another goose chase.

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Neil Brooks - 25 Jun 2009 16:09 GMT
> In article
> <33d8763c-a70e-4208-8bde-687c90f82...@y33g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to be forthcoming say you do not want to answer the question. Please do
> not send me on another goose chase.

I did answer your question, elsewhere: I do not believe that minus
lenses accelerate myopic progression.

BUT ... I genuinely think it WOULD be worth your while to take a look
at that National Academy of Sciences book.  It is an extremely well-
written and thoroughgoing treatment of the subject of myopia
progression and prevalence, including a broad meta-analysis of
existing studies.

BTW: I'm VERY glad that you remain conscious of the BAK issues.  It
seems to me that the practice, among prescribing eye docs, is slowly
changing.
Otis - 24 Jun 2009 19:56 GMT
Dear Bill,

Thanks for your thougtful review.

But some phrases require SOME clarification.

Remember, medicine is not like the "hard" sciences, math, engineering,
control-system design.

Medicine, and the minus lens grew out of the fact that 400 years ago,
some people found that a minus lens "sharpened" their vision, after
they induced a negative STATE in their eyes.

They never asked "why", just started wearing the "obvious" minus
lens.  There is no real "hard" science behind this process, and the
real justification is that it "works" on everyone.

But let me attempt to clarify you questions:

Bill> Let me ask the following question for which I want a yes or no
answer,
> Does the preponderance of scientific evidence show that negative
> corrective lens use accelerates progression of myopia?

Otis> This depends TOTALLY on WHO is doing the judging.  The majority-
opinion medical people INSIST THAT A MINUS HAS NO EFFECT ON THE EYE'S
REFRACTIVE STATE.  The second-opinion people insist that it does.  The
appeal to "fact" and "science" has NO EFFECT ON EITHER GROUP.  Asking
for a consensus, simply drives these two groups further appart.  The
simple answer is that the majority-opinion group says "NO", and the
second-opinion group says "YES".

Bill> I want to leave talk of cure for another time

Otis> Fine! Then you must rely on this bifurcation of opinion --
because each group is going to cite their own studies to make their
claim.

Otis>  But I personally I take Soon's "curves" VERY SERIOUSLY, and
suggest that that first "minus lens step" be reviewed very seriously
-- as the preventive second-opinion.

Engineering best,

Otis

> In article <BJSdnU3neL8KrN_XnZ2dnUVZ_qudn...@giganews.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neil Brooks - 24 Jun 2009 20:47 GMT
> But some phrases require SOME clarification.

In other words, Otis attempts to manipulate the commonly used,
accepted, and understood vocabulary in order to obfuscate and confuse.
Mike Tyner - 25 Jun 2009 01:10 GMT
> Let me ask the following question for which I want a yes or no answer,
> Does the preponderance of scientific evidence show that negative
> corrective lens use accelerates progression of myopia? I want to leave
> talk of cure for another time.

No.

If it did, doctors would be required to warn patients of potential side
effects.

So, how many pediatric ophthalmologists write prescriptions for myopia and
warn patients to remove glasses for close work? None I know.

Because THEIR literature says reading with or without glasses or bifocals or
"plus" makes so little difference you can't support one recommendation over
another. Br J Ophthalmol. 1989 July; 73(7): 547-551

How many US optometrists warn myopes to remove -2.00 glasses? A few are
left, but they tend to be older.

Outside the US, you often don't know what "optometrist" actually means.
There is evidence that it means "flake" in some places.

We tend to lose perspective in this little corner of the Internet... like
this question hasn't been pounded to death with evidence-based practices and
policies, at the FDA, FTC and in elementary schools and universities all
over the globe.

There's your preponderance.

Donald Rehm recently petitioned the FDA to require myopia warnings on
spectacle lenses. What does it mean if they refuse?

Me personally, I've only ever said to parents that they shouldn't beat
themselves or their kids up about it. I think of Otis every time I say that.

-MT
Salmon Egg - 25 Jun 2009 04:17 GMT
> > Let me ask the following question for which I want a yes or no answer,
> > Does the preponderance of scientific evidence show that negative
> > corrective lens use accelerates progression of myopia? I want to leave
> > talk of cure for another time.
>
> No.

Thank you Mike. It is amazing who difficult it is to get such an answer.
I thought that I worded the question in such a way that a Yes/No answer
would the only allowable answer. A maybe or it depends logically
requires a NO.

My gripe is not with the answer but with a fallacy invoked. I get the
answer No comes from requiring the desired result rather than from
experimental determination.

> If it did, doctors would be required to warn patients of potential side
> effects.

If so, I would have been told about the BAK in some Naphazoline eye drop
recently prescribed to me. to help itchy eyes. I had even mentioned the
problems I had run into from BAK. My eyes became more irritated before I
finally read the insert to discover that BAK was in there.

In practice, I now believe that I would NOT be warned even if my premise
were true. It seems like another "We have always done it that way."

Is anyone else willing to give me a Yes/No answer?

Bill

Signature

Most people go to college to get their missing high school education.

Mike Tyner - 25 Jun 2009 05:08 GMT
> My gripe is not with the answer but with a fallacy invoked.
> I get the answer No comes from requiring the desired result
> rather than from experimental determination.

Only if you expect the cart before the horse. You asked for a yes or no
answer, not a list of citations.

Doctors don't warn myopes BECAUSE the preponderance of published studies do
not show that wearing glasses accellerates myopia.

> If so, I would have been told about the BAK in some Naphazoline eye drop
> recently prescribed to me. to help itchy eyes. I had even mentioned the
> problems I had run into from BAK. My eyes became more irritated before I
> finally read the insert to discover that BAK was in there.

Hey, they didn't tell you your vaccine had mercury in it either. Sometimes
medicine is stupid.

> In practice, I now believe that I would NOT be warned even if my premise
> were true. It seems like another "We have always done it that way."

Ah, but grasshopper... we used to do it the OTHER way.

What if they quit using BAK 20 years ago and now Otis wants to bring it
back?

Optometrists used to prescribe bifocals and reading lenses and hygeine and
exercises in order to "control" myopia.

Why did they quit?

-MT
Mike Tyner - 25 Jun 2009 13:35 GMT
> Doctors don't warn myopes BECAUSE the preponderance of published studies
> do not show that wearing glasses accellerates myopia.

FWIW, grammatically clumsy but technically accurate. IOW:

Doctors don't warn myopes because most studies show wearing glasses does not
accellerate myopia.

-MT

>> If so, I would have been told about the BAK in some Naphazoline eye drop
>> recently prescribed to me. to help itchy eyes. I had even mentioned the
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> -MT
Otis - 25 Jun 2009 16:53 GMT
Dear Bill,

Yes, Mike Tyner says that "most" studies don't show that the eye goes
down with an applied minus lens.  That is Tyner's selective CHOICE as
to WHICH study he "believes", or it is in fact his OPINION.

The issue is that SOME studies DO SHOW that the minus does produce the
SECONDARY response, of accellerating the DOWN RATE.  But let us just
be honest.  The people who understand this, are called second-OPINION
health professionals.

In this context there can be NO "yes" or "no" answer.

Prevention best,

Otis

> > Doctors don't warn myopes BECAUSE the preponderance of published studies
> > do not show that wearing glasses accellerates myopia.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neil Brooks - 25 Jun 2009 17:03 GMT
> Yes, Mike Tyner says that "most" studies don't show that the eye goes
> down with an applied minus lens.  That is Tyner's selective CHOICE as
> to WHICH study he "believes", or it is in fact his OPINION.
>
> The issue is that SOME studies DO SHOW that the minus does produce the
> SECONDARY response, of accellerating the DOWN RATE.  

Would you kindly cite those studies??

Your phrasing clearly indicates causality.  I'd be interested in
seeing whether you can reference a credible study that backs up your
assertion.

Just a little heads-up, incidentally: Oakley-Young doesn't establish
causality, and is NOT randomized.  Its subjects were near-point
esophores.

I presume you know the difference, right?

Thanks!
Dr Judy - 25 Jun 2009 19:37 GMT
> In article <99KdnWsyGt0ZXd_XnZ2dnUVZ_g-dn...@giganews.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Is anyone else willing to give me a Yes/No answer?

The preponderance of evidence shows that the use of negative lenses to
correct existing myopia does not accelerate the progression of
myopia.  There is little human evidence of course but the animal
evidence is clear: animals who wear minus to correct existing myopia
do not progress.

The next time Otis claims that minus lenses cause "stair case" myopia,
ask him for evidence for that statement.  The Soon graph is not
evidence, it is a speculation of what might happen if minus lenses
cause progressive myopia, not a graph based on any actual
measurements.  The Soon graph is as valid as one published by the Flat
Earth Society showing how far you could walk in various directions
before falling off.

Judy
Neil Brooks - 26 Jun 2009 04:47 GMT
>The Soon graph is as valid as one published by the Flat
> Earth Society showing how far you could walk in various directions
> before falling off.

Not entirely true.

At THAT time, nearly EVERYBODY believed that the Earth was flat.

In the extant case, however, only a few whack-jobs, True Believers,
and those seeking financial gain subscribe to the "stair-case myopia"
theory.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.