Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2009
Can a person get MORE nearsighted suddenly?
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The Real Bev - 06 Jan 2009 00:24 GMT (I'm waiting for my ophthalmologist to call back.)
This is weird. When I put on my contacts (distance, far-sighted, astigmatism) early this morning (5:00 am) things in the house seemed OK, but distance stuff (freeway signs, etc.) were fuzzy. Car lights are usually blurry, but this was worse than usual. When it got light, things seemed OK.
Skied until 1:00, at which time EVERYTHING got fuzzy. I used rewetting drops several times, but nothing helped. I stopped at Costco (about 45 minutes later,on the way home), removed my lenses and put on my prescription sungleasses. Wow. I could read stuff with the distance part, and the reading segment required me to hold stuff 6" away to make it clear (normal is ~12"-16"). Needless to say, shopping was a real bitch.
As I was driving the rest of the way home (total distance 85 miles) it seemed to be getting better. By the time the doc calls it may be back to normal.
A pair of my old glasses (age unknown) are now suitable for computer use in the distance part, which is certainly convenient, if a bit odd. I'm using them right now, but am holding my head a little closer than usual.
Altitude was 7K-8K feet for 6 hours or so. Do corneas swell with altitude? Would that make me less far-sighted? I think the problem started this morning when the elevation for a couple of hours was ~200-500 feet.
I SWEAR I'm not a Martian. Anybody have any ideas?
 Signature Cheers, Bev ============================================================= My house isn't a pigsty, it's an Immunity Enhancement Center.
The Real Bev - 07 Jan 2009 04:10 GMT > (I'm waiting for my ophthalmologist to call back.) She called back and diagnosed corneal edema brought on by cold. Sounds about right, it was REALLY cold in the morning. I'm going to have her fit new contacts, but that process probably won't be finished until midsummer :-(
In theory contacts are protective. Go figure.
So does anybody have any ideas about preventing CE while there's still enough snow to ski?
> This is weird. When I put on my contacts (distance, far-sighted, astigmatism) > early this morning (5:00 am) things in the house seemed OK, but distance stuff [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > As I was driving the rest of the way home (total distance 85 miles) it seemed to > be getting better. By the time the doc calls it may be back to normal. I think it was gone by 11:00 pm when I went to bed.
> A pair of my old glasses (age unknown) are now suitable for computer use in the > distance part, which is certainly convenient, if a bit odd. I'm using them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I SWEAR I'm not a Martian. Anybody have any ideas?
 Signature Cheers, Bev ============================================ "People are too stupid to realize they are." --JoHn DoH KeLm
Dr. Leukoma - 07 Jan 2009 05:29 GMT > > (I'm waiting for my ophthalmologist to call back.) > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > "People are too stupid to realize they are." > --JoHn DoH KeLm High altitude = less oxygen. Dry contacts = reduced oxygen permeability. The result is corneal swelling, or edema, more central because that's where the lens is thickest. That would be my guess.
Mike Tyner - 07 Jan 2009 14:11 GMT Two objections:
Oxygen is rare at 50,000 feet, but not so much at 500.
And corneal edema creates fog up close, as well as far away. If near vision wasn't foggy, some other explanation will be necessary.
-MT
Neil Brooks - 07 Jan 2009 15:29 GMT > Two objections: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MT At the risk of asking stupid questions ... Bev ... ? Any way you could have reversed your contacts, and -- based on your Rx -- could that explain it?
I did it ONCE in my LONG history of CL wear, and SWORE that wasn't it ... except it was ;-)
I'm skiing tomorrow. Git some!!!
The Real Bev - 07 Jan 2009 18:10 GMT >> Two objections: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > could have reversed your contacts, and -- based on your Rx -- could > that explain it? No, it was the same way with my glasses. For once in my life my left eye was better than my right eye. Damn, it just occurred to me that my left eye wasn't affected...I think...
> I did it ONCE in my LONG history of CL wear, and SWORE that wasn't > it ... except it was ;-) I did it too, once. I liked the effect when I was inside, but it sucked badly for driving!
> I'm skiing tomorrow. Git some!!! Good for you! I go to Big Bear Lake in California. Where do you go?
 Signature Cheers, Bev ============================================ "People are too stupid to realize they are." --JoHn DoH KeLm
Neil Brooks - 11 Jan 2009 16:44 GMT > Good for you! I go to Big Bear Lake in California. Where do you go? Moved to the Rockies, so I'm skiing some beautiful CO places.
Big Bear's just over a mile high, IIRC, so I'm not sure how much the altitude is affecting central corneal thickness, but ... look at this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413958
Where I'm going, I'm at 11-12,000', at the top. After the ski day, despite my scleral lenses (fluid-filled RGP), I'm noticing pretty significant signs of edema -- pain, ghosting and haloes, primarily.
I can frequently drive TO the mountain, but cannot drive FROM it.
I also notice pretty significant increased pain after removing the sclerals.
The Real Bev - 11 Jan 2009 19:04 GMT >> Good for you! I go to Big Bear Lake in California. Where do you go? > > Moved to the Rockies, so I'm skiing some beautiful CO places. Nice. I've never gone anywhere except SoCal. I'm kind of afraid that if I go somewhere else I'll be spoiled...
> Big Bear's just over a mile high, IIRC, so I'm not sure how much the > altitude is affecting central corneal thickness, but ... look at this: > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17413958 Then this is more likely to bother farsighted people than nearsighted people, right. God really has it in for us.
> Where I'm going, I'm at 11-12,000', at the top. After the ski day, > despite my scleral lenses (fluid-filled RGP), I'm noticing pretty > significant signs of edema -- pain, ghosting and haloes, primarily. No pain, just rotten vision :-( Next time I go (Tuesday, probably) I'm going to bite the bullet, wear glasses and hope that I don't fall on my face or fall anywhere I can lose them. I'll wear my old ones just in case.
> I can frequently drive TO the mountain, but cannot drive FROM it. It must have been the early morning cold then -- coldest day of the year so far, but it's always cold in the early morning in winter. I CAN drive without my glasses, I just can't read any road signs :-(
> I also notice pretty significant increased pain after removing the > sclerals. I read some articles on scleral lenses, none of which made me think they'd be a good option for me. There are no miracles.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ========================================================== "It's no piece of cake, but it sure beats listening to Ted Kennedy on the Senate floor." - Jesse Helms describing heart surgery
Dr. Leukoma - 11 Jan 2009 22:38 GMT > >> Good for you! I go to Big Bear Lake in California. Where do you go? > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Kennedy on the Senate floor." > - Jesse Helms describing heart surgery Yeah, well a scleral lens is any lens that vaults the cornea and rests on the sclera. The definition does not include the diameter, it doesn't specify the material, and it doesn't specify the thickness, nor any of the many shape parameters that are possible. I've seen scleral lenses that look like shot glasses, and I've seen some that look like large soft lenses. The devil is in the design and the details. So, I bet bitoric scleral lenses could be a GREAT options for you.
50% of my scleral fits are for non-surgical patients. I have fit them on teenagers and adults for whom other options had not worked very well. I've even done a multifocal scleral lens.
It's just a matter of time before their use becomes more widespread and they outgrow the stigma of being thought of as lenses for people with disfigured eyes.
The Real Bev - 11 Jan 2009 23:49 GMT > Yeah, well a scleral lens is any lens that vaults the cornea and rests > on the sclera. The definition does not include the diameter, it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > details. So, I bet bitoric scleral lenses could be a GREAT options > for you. What kind of prices are involved?
 Signature Cheers, Bev xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I've enjoyed just about as much of this as I can stand.
Dr. Leukoma - 12 Jan 2009 02:19 GMT > > Yeah, well a scleral lens is any lens that vaults the cornea and rests > > on the sclera. The definition does not include the diameter, it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > I've enjoyed just about as much of this as I can stand. Well, that is a pertinent question. There is a big range. I believe that the high end of the range is $8500. I know that some insurance companies who are enlightened enough to cover therapeutic scleral lenses for keratoconus, or irregular astigmatism, will often reimburse up to $1400 or so. If you want to specifically know my fees, then go to my website, which is www dot leukoma dot com and follow the link to my email address. My fee is closer to the low end of the range. Additional or replacement lenses are quite reasonable, and are comparable to custom toric soft lenses.
Thanks for asking.
The Real Bev - 12 Jan 2009 02:27 GMT >> > Yeah, well a scleral lens is any lens that vaults the cornea and rests >> > on the sclera. The definition does not include the diameter, it [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Additional or replacement lenses are quite reasonable, and are > comparable to custom toric soft lenses. Ouch. Even if Blue Cross/Medicare covers a portion, it's still a bit steep to avoid driving problems on ski days :-( I need to think about holding my head under the hot-air blower in the rest room...
I am reminded of the shock I felt when told (1980 or so) that the MRI of my hip would cost $1200. The idea of having a disease for which the diagnosis cost $1200 was terrifying. Turns out that nothing showed up on the MRI, so I didn't even get a diagnosis :-( Different problem 25 years later, same hip. MRI equally useless. So much for technology.
> Thanks for asking. Hope the information is useful to someone.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ------------------------------------------------------------------- "We need to cut more slack for the stupid; after all, somebody has to populate the lower part of the bell curve." -- Dennis (evil)
Dr. Leukoma - 12 Jan 2009 02:55 GMT > >> > Yeah, well a scleral lens is any lens that vaults the cornea and rests > >> > on the sclera. The definition does not include the diameter, it [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Well, not everybody is so inclined to spend that kind of money, but I really haven't seen too much resistance and the success rate is very high. As I said, they are not for everybody. I wear Acuvue Oasys lenses without any problems whatsoever. But then again I wasn't blessed with high astigmatism, keratoconus, or a bad result form a corneal transplant or LASIK surgery. If you have some time to waste, you can go to PubMed and find the article I published on this in March of last year in the journal Eye & Contact Lens if anybody would like more details on the particular methodology I employ to design these lenses. And, if you just happen to be in Las Vegas on Friday, I'll be presenting this topic at the Global Specialty Lens Symposium.
Dr. Leukoma - 11 Jan 2009 22:40 GMT > > Good for you! I go to Big Bear Lake in California. Where do you go? > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I also notice pretty significant increased pain after removing the > sclerals. What material are your sclerals made of? There is now Boston XO2, which is hyper-DK and might help with the edema.
The Real Bev - 07 Jan 2009 18:08 GMT > Two objections: > > Oxygen is rare at 50,000 feet, but not so much at 500. > > And corneal edema creates fog up close, as well as far away. If near vision > wasn't foggy, some other explanation will be necessary. CRAP! I'm going in to see her in half an hour, so maybe I'll find out something useful. She fits contacts too, and I'm going to give her a shot.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ============================================ "People are too stupid to realize they are." --JoHn DoH KeLm
The Real Bev - 07 Jan 2009 23:30 GMT >> Two objections: >> >> Oxygen is rare at 50,000 feet, but not so much at 500. But it was really cold and I don't have a heater in my car.
>> And corneal edema creates fog up close, as well as far away. If near vision >> wasn't foggy, some other explanation will be necessary. Maybe there wasn't MUCH of it, just enough to give the effect of nearsightedness. Ophthalmologist couldn't think of anything else it might be. Looking back, I think I've had this for a long time -- whenever I start back home after skiing, which happens around 1:00 pm after spending most of the morning in cold weather.
> CRAP! I'm going in to see her in half an hour, so maybe I'll find out something > useful. She fits contacts too, and I'm going to give her a shot. She's going to try to figure out some new contacts to try (I now have less hyperopia and more astigmatism). She couldn't tell (2 days later) if corneal edema is what it was, but it just SOUNDS right and she couldn't think of anything else it might be. I asked her if there was anything I could do to prevent or reduce it and she said 'Don't wear your contacts when you go skiing." She squeezed me in today and sounded really tired, so I didn't push it.
But now I'm wondering if Muro-128 (yeah, it was a bitch to find it!) or equivalent would help (a) quickly (minutes, perhaps) and (b) would I have to remove my contacts to use it? Everything I've read about corneal edema seems to refer to problems resulting from either eye surgery or insufficiently O2-permeable contacts. The only mention of cold involved lasik patients climbing mountains, and was not helpful.
What do you think?
I could use my glasses in the morning, switch to contacts on the hill, and switch back to glasses when I leave. Having fallen on my face twice (once I broke my frames, once I lost my glasses in the snow AFTER they scraped a goodly chunk of skin off my face. Nice soft goggles, which also keep the wind out of my eyes, seem essential. It's not that I actually like to fall, it just happens sometimes; not often, but sometimes.
This may sound like a lot of trouble to go to "just for skiing", but it's about the only recreation I *DO* love and can do now. I need new contacts anyway, I've had these since May 2006, although I stopped wearing them in May 2007 except for skiing last year.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ===================================================== Election 2008: There's never been a better time to vote libertarian.
Dan Abel - 08 Jan 2009 00:16 GMT > But now I'm wondering if Muro-128 I hope you understand how dangerous this substance is. Here are many warnings:
http://www.drugs.com/cons/muro-128-5.html
It says that it is prescription only. It's also expensive, about 20 bucks (US dollars) for 1/2 ounce.
It is composed of two other substances:
1. Sodium Chloride. The LD50 (lethal dose) is 3000.
http://chemlabs.uoregon.edu/Safety/toxicity.html
2. Dihydrogen Monoxide. This kills tens of thousands of people every year. Death is generally due to inhalation.
http://www.dhmo.org/
Add those two things together, and what do you get? SALT WATER!!!
That's right, salt water. For the third time: Salt Water.
Since you already tried regular drops, which are salt water, I wonder how much this stuff would help.
 Signature Dan Abel Petaluma, California USA dabel@sonic.net
The Real Bev - 08 Jan 2009 01:34 GMT >> But now I'm wondering if Muro-128 > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It says that it is prescription only. It's also expensive, about 20 > bucks (US dollars) for 1/2 ounce. OTC, but you're right about the expense. That's why I'm asking.
> It is composed of two other substances: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 2. Dihydrogen Monoxide. This kills tens of thousands of people every > year. Death is generally due to inhalation. I know that too. A friend nearly died of it before she learned to use it properly.
> http://www.dhmo.org/ > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Since you already tried regular drops, which are salt water, I wonder > how much this stuff would help. The concentration might possibly make the difference. If I lived near the ocean I could get lots of it for free, but it's cheaper to buy it than drive 90 miles. OTOH, I could boil some up in a few minutes, but if it's something that you have to use 3 times a day for a few weeks it won't do what I want anyway.
 Signature Cheers, Bev -------------------------------------------------------------------- HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive bike parts not far from the object we are trying to hit.
Mike Tyner - 08 Jan 2009 06:51 GMT > But it was really cold and I don't have a heater in my car. That could be.
I don't know what would happen with muro128 and contacts. A blow dryer might be safer, and it seems that very cold air would be pretty drying, as well.
If it is edema, something is slowing your endothelial pump. Cold can do it, lack of oxygen from clogged-up contacts, or ultraviolet, endothelial loss with age, and disorders like Fuch's dystrophy. UV burns can cause "mysterious" edema after skiing and the beach.
> What do you think? It's easy enough to deal with corneal edema, but better to avoid it and to do that you'll have to identify the underlying cause. Higher-perm contacts, rigid gas perms, goggles, sunglasses, all might make a difference depending on the mechanism causing your edema.
> This may sound like a lot of trouble to go to "just for skiing", but it's > about the only recreation I *DO* love and can do now. I need new contacts > anyway, I've had these since May 2006, although I stopped wearing them in > May 2007 except for skiing last year. Color me surprised. :)
-MT
The Real Bev - 08 Jan 2009 22:18 GMT >> But it was really cold and I don't have a heater in my car. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with age, and disorders like Fuch's dystrophy. UV burns can cause > "mysterious" edema after skiing and the beach. Of those, cold and lack of oxygen seem like the likely culprits. Surely the ophthalmologist would have noticed the other problems, right?
>> What do you think? > > It's easy enough to deal with corneal edema, but better to avoid it and to > do that you'll have to identify the underlying cause. Higher-perm contacts, > rigid gas perms, goggles, While I was skiing I used goggles, but they had a few air leaks (duct tape to replace the old foam on the vents, don't you dare snicker!). I took the goggles off around 12:45, and the fuzziness started soon afterward.
> sunglasses, all might make a difference depending > on the mechanism causing your edema. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Color me surprised. :) If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I know my prescription has changed -- some old distance glasses now work fine for computer usage. So do my current contacts, but the apres-ski thing had me focusing much closer than that.
The ophthalmologist is prescribing new contacts, so that should solve the lack of O2 problem, if nothing else. She gave me my new glasses prescription yesterday. Her prescription:
R - .50 +2.75 10 2.50 add L +1.25 +3.50 170 2.50 add
which I converted to:
R: +2.25 -2.75 100 2.50 L +4.75 -3.50 80 2.50
Did I do it right?
 Signature Cheers, Bev -------------------------------------------------------------------- HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive bike parts not far from the object we are trying to hit.
Dr. Leukoma - 10 Jan 2009 13:15 GMT > >> But it was really cold and I don't have a heater in my car. > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > is used as a kind of divining rod to locate expensive bike parts not > far from the object we are trying to hit. I would like to make a few comments regarding contact lenses for high astigmatism. I must state that I have a vested interest in what I am about to say, but I hope most will find the information useful, especially since I never see this discussed in this forum.
I have had a 25 year love-hate relationship with toric soft lenses, and those patients represent the single largest pool of potential LASIK candidates. The majority of them do not achieve the vision and comfort that the rest of us do with soft contact lenses. Surely there have been improvements, but the parameters are still limited, and 20/20 comfortable vision is still an elusive target for many. I have worked with large GP lenses over the years. During the past year I have been doing intensive research in fitting methods and design, primarily for therapeutic applications, i.e. situations that one would consider medically necessary. One important outcome of this is that the lenses have become easier to fit, and very complicated designs are now possible, including torics and multifocals. The result is that I am fitting more non-therapeutic patients, and the scleral-type lenses are proving to be reliable problem solvers for high astigmatism and other situations.
There are a few drawbacks, including cost and limited availability, but once I point out the positives, the patients are more receptive to trying them. The positives are: better vision, comfort, and lower annual replacement costs than disposable lenses. I have had some patients go as long as 3 or 4 years between replacements, and 2 years is probably the norm. Most of the upfront costs go to the initial design and fitting, and replacement costs are quite reasonable, i.e. about the same as a set of custom toric soft lenses. The vision is nothing short of stunning, with many patients stating that they have never seen so clearly, and most report no lens awareness at all. Because the oxygen permeable polymer contains no water, it doesn't dry out, and a few blinks are enough to wet the surface without having to rehydrate the entire lens mass. One of my patients is a family friend with 5 diopters of against-the-rule astigmatism. Contact lenses had never worked for him for optical reasons and dry eye. He developed a corneal condition (corneal surface irregularities following cataract surgery) that warranted a therapeutic lens, and so I put him into small bitoric scleral lenses. His quote: "I have never seen this clearly, and I often forget that I have them in when I go to bed." He is more than 70 years/old.
While there is a significant learning curve to fitting these lenses, I know that there has been a dramatic interest in them from practioners around the world. I also believe that this type of lens will prove to be a great platform for advanced optical design, such as wavefront optics.
Dr. Leukoma - 08 Jan 2009 05:01 GMT > Two objections: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MT And corneal steepening increases myopia. So, figure out what caused the corneal steepening. Maybe the patient didn't notice the fog because of the blur. Also, I didn't say "rare." I said "less." Most cases of corneal edema related to contact lens induced hypoxia I have seen occurred at sea level.
Dr. Leukoma - 08 Jan 2009 05:06 GMT > > Two objections: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cases of corneal edema related to contact lens induced hypoxia I have > seen occurred at sea level. Actually, one other cause did suggest itself: corneal steepening via mechanical means, as in a tight lens.
The Real Bev - 08 Jan 2009 05:59 GMT >> > Two objections: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Actually, one other cause did suggest itself: corneal steepening via > mechanical means, as in a tight lens. Unlikely -- the guy who fitted the lens (and I believe that he really was pretty good at it and did the best he could) surely would have noticed that, as would my ophthalmologist who looked at the lenses on my eyes today.
 Signature Cheers, Bev = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 'Politics' comes from an ancient Greek word meaning 'many blood-sucking leeches.' -- Mark Russell
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