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Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2008

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Playing Piano Blindfolded

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Jason Sperry - 13 Apr 2008 06:01 GMT
I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
ophthalmologist:

I can easily play complicated pieces of music on the piano with a
blindfold on. (So, obviously I cannot "see" the keys.)

It reminds me of how Mike Tyner talked about how blind people can
easily find their way around a room. (They cannot "see" the pieces of
furniture.)

How would you explain this?

(And to all the idiots on this site: Yes, I have a life; I am actually
becoming a piano teacher in a few weeks at only 16-years-old.)
Nicolaas Hawkins - 13 Apr 2008 08:13 GMT
> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> (And to all the idiots on this site: Yes, I have a life; I am actually
> becoming a piano teacher in a few weeks at only 16-years-old.)

Truly a case of the blind leading the blind.

Signature

- Nic.

Jason Sperry - 13 Apr 2008 08:21 GMT
> > I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> > ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> - Nic.

I totally agree with you. Conventional optometry is truly a case of
the blind leading the blind.

Or are you saying I am blind?

You better tell me.

(I know, laugh as you wish. =D)
Nicolaas Hawkins - 13 Apr 2008 08:40 GMT
>>> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
>>> ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> (I know, laugh as you wish. =D)

No, I hadn't 'better' do anything.  
Who in hell do you think you are to tell me what I had 'better' do, child?
I don't take instructions from some wet-behind-the-ears son of a clown.
Jason Sperry - 13 Apr 2008 09:10 GMT
> >>> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> >>> ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Who in hell do you think you are to tell me what I had 'better' do, child?
> I don't take instructions from some wet-behind-the-ears son of a clown.

Lol you're the child having a temper tantrum, right?

Where are we going with this??
Jason Sperry - 13 Apr 2008 09:12 GMT
BTW I am becoming famous someday so you better not try me too much.

lol..
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 11:49 GMT
Yes me and Jason are gonna win the nobel prize someday and get famous
so SHUT UP ALL OF YOU!
Nicolaas Hawkins - 13 Apr 2008 21:10 GMT
> BTW I am becoming famous someday so you better not try me too much.
>
> lol..

BOSH

I have grandchildren who are older and smarter than you are.
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 21:12 GMT
I'm smarter than you, they're smarter than you, we're smarter than
you!
Blah blah, who cares
Dan - 13 Apr 2008 15:59 GMT
>> I can easily play complicated pieces of music on the piano with a
>> blindfold on. (So, obviously I cannot "see" the keys.)
>>
>> How would you explain this?

To the OP:

Although I'm no expert in psychomotor activity, I play classical
piano.  I (and, I think, most pianists) hardly ever look at the keys
once I've figured out the piece and gotten used to playing it.

I believe the behavior is explained by "muscle memory". Google it.

Muscle memory is a normal human (primate?, mammalian?) function and
explains many activities like tying your shoes, handwriting, driving a
car,  becoming skilled at sports activities, and, of course, playing
musical instruments.

In playing the piano, your hard/arm/finger muscles remember the
spatial distance between physical movements across the keyboard.

Very often, when I'm "in the zone", I close my eyes and let the music
flow out of me. Enjoy your journey with the piano! Create beauty!

--
Regards,
Dan
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 16:14 GMT
I envy you Elite Pianoists...
One day, I will become the greatest master of piano who ever lived.
Yes Jason, that means I'm going to beat you. (Well, after you've
taught me how to play, lol)
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 16:18 GMT
Hey Jason I'm bored.
When you are coming to my house in London?
I wish there was a teleport or "portkey" (or even traveling through
the fireplace with flu powder) something that lets you go from London
the America and back instantaneously... Actually, I wish I could just
apparate there... *WHIP!*
John Sheridan - 13 Apr 2008 11:10 GMT
>I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
>ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>[...]
>How would you explain this?

Why does it need to be explained?  There are chess masters who
can play 20 or 30 games of chess all at the same time, without
looking at any of the chessboards.

You do something for a long time, you develop excellent memory
regarding that thing.

What's so strange about that?
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 12:12 GMT
There's nothing strange, Jason was raising the point because it
negates Tyner's own argument (which was wrong).
Dr Judy - 13 Apr 2008 16:19 GMT
> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> (And to all the idiots on this site: Yes, I have a life; I am actually
> becoming a piano teacher in a few weeks at only 16-years-old.)
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 16:24 GMT
Come to think of it, apparition doesn't make a 'whip' sound. It's
actually like, you whirl around on the spot and then... *CRACK!*
Dr Judy - 13 Apr 2008 16:35 GMT
> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> ophthalmologist:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> How would you explain this?

You have memorized the key positions and the music.

Most blind people have some sight and can, in fact, see the
furniture.
The totally blind memorize the position of objects in the room.  Part
of the therapy provided to the newly blind is to train them in how to
memorize object locations and to always put things back.  It is also
possible for blind people to learn to "see" objects by listening to
reflected sound, much as a bat uses echo location to fly.

Judy
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2008 18:23 GMT
In article
<0622d940-a916-4161-87b3-acb299aae30c@s13g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,

> I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> ophthalmologist:

How about a regular non-doctor person?  

> I can easily play complicated pieces of music on the piano with a
> blindfold on. (So, obviously I cannot "see" the keys.)

I had a discussion about this just recently.  When my brother learned to
play the piano, the teacher had a ruler.  If he looked at his hands, she
would whack him on the back of the hand with the ruler.  Her students
learned quickly not to look at their hands while playing.  She was more
forgiving with the beginning students.  If they looked at their hands,
despite her instructions not to, she would simply hold a piece of
cardboard between their eyes and their hands.

My father chimed in at this point.  When he learned how to type at
school, all of the keys were removed and replaced with blank keys.  It
did no good just to look at the keys, since they were blank.  The
students soon learned to "touch type", which is how nearly all
proficient typists work.

If you watch someone tie their shoes, they seldom keep watching once
they've gotten started.  The fingers just take over.  

This is true for many things in life.  For the workstation that a person
normally uses, it isn't necessary to look at the mouse.  It's right
where you left it.  Once somebody has had a sip of coffee from their
regular cup, and set the cup down on their usual table, they may not
need to look when getting a second sip.

> It reminds me of how Mike Tyner talked about how blind people can
> easily find their way around a room. (They cannot "see" the pieces of
> furniture.)
>
> How would you explain this?

Blind people memorize the furniture and layout in a room.  They can move
confidently after learning this information.  For an unfamiliar room,
they "probe" with their white cane to find out where things are.  You
will often see them circling around trying to find something.  I never
know what to do, since some of them resent help because they don't
really learn unless they do it themselves.

ObHintToSightedPeople:  Don't ever rearrange the furniture in a room
used by a blind person without telling them first.  If you like to
rearrange rooms frequently due to aesthetic reasons, think again.

Signature

Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
dabel@sonic.net

Don W - 13 Apr 2008 18:37 GMT
> ObHintToSightedPeople:  Don't ever rearrange the furniture in a room
> used by a blind person without telling them first.  If you like to
> rearrange rooms frequently due to aesthetic reasons, think again.

Goes for dogs that can't see also.

Don W.
Dan Abel - 14 Apr 2008 02:23 GMT
> > ObHintToSightedPeople:  Don't ever rearrange the furniture in a room
> > used by a blind person without telling them first.  If you like to
> > rearrange rooms frequently due to aesthetic reasons, think again.
>
> Goes for dogs that can't see also.

Except that you can't warn them when you've moved things.  My sister
moved no furniture in her house for a few years, because her dog Roger
was blind.  She did major moving around after he died.

Signature

Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA
dabel@sonic.net

Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2008 19:04 GMT
>I present this question for Mike Tyner or another conventional
> ophthalmologist:

Address your question to Zetsu. It was he who said that vision, memory and
imagination were all "correlated" and one could not be present without the
other. Zetsu promised us that blindness could be cured by fixing the
imagination and the memory.

I don't believe this is true, but you're free to argue with him about it all
you like. This newsgroup appears dedicated to idiotic arguments with no
basis in reality and no relationship whatsoever to established science.

As for you and Zetsu, I'm pretty sure you never met a blind man, much less
cured one.

-MT
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 19:48 GMT
If the "blindness" is caused by refractive error, and the memory is
perfect, then the blindness will be instantaneously cured. All
refractive error is functional and therefore lies in the mind, and is
cured by anything that rests the mind such as perfect memory.

In the case that the 'blindness' is caused by an organic disease or
injury, circumstances change. But this does not make the blindness
incurable, in fact, sight may still be restored.

I do not see any controversy in this!
Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2008 21:39 GMT
> If the "blindness" is caused by refractive error, and the memory is
> perfect, then the blindness will be instantaneously cured.

This statement requires the total suspension of disbelief and absolute
ignorance of the processes involved.

> All
> refractive error is functional and therefore lies in the mind, and is
> cured by anything that rests the mind such as perfect memory.

This statement requires the total suspension of disbelief and absolute
ignorance of the processes involved.

> I do not see any controversy in this!

Oh, well, since YOU see no controversy, there must BE no controversy.

That's how it IS when you have your own newsgroup to play in.

-MT
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 22:11 GMT
> > If the "blindness" is caused by refractive error, and the memory is
> > perfect, then the blindness will be instantaneously cured.
>
> This statement requires the total suspension of disbelief and absolute
> ignorance of the processes involved.

No, it requires demonstration of the facts.
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 19:49 GMT
> As for you and Zetsu, I'm pretty sure you never met a blind man, much less
> cured one.

Actually, I've met someone called 'David Blunket' in person, and he is
a famous MP and blind. He was with a dog.
Don W - 13 Apr 2008 20:15 GMT
>> As for you and Zetsu, I'm pretty sure you never met a blind man, much
>> less
>> cured one.
>
> Actually, I've met someone called 'David Blunket' in person, and he is
> a famous MP and blind. He was with a dog.

Amazing how many people you can meet if they don't see you coming.
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 20:19 GMT
I was roaming the streets of Central London and happened to see him.
Well we didn't actually "meet", in the conventional sense of the term.
He was just walking by (aided by a dog) and I passed him closely.
Don W - 13 Apr 2008 21:33 GMT
I am impressed on how people can navigate busy streets, either in London or
in So Cal with a guide dog.  They have nerve enough to cross a street where
I fear to tread.

Oh, 2 t's.
Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2008 21:44 GMT
> Actually, I've met someone called 'David Blunket' in person, and he is
> a famous MP and blind. He was with a dog.

We're pretty sure the dog knows more about blindness than you do.

-MT
Zetsu - 13 Apr 2008 22:07 GMT
Perhaps it does, but it is difficult to know, since human fluency in
Dog Talk is somewhat poor.
spammer - 14 Apr 2008 01:17 GMT
> Perhaps it does, but it is difficult to know, since human fluency in
> Dog Talk is somewhat poor.

 Still in the running for the most retarded post of the year award,
eh?
 
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