Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2008
Lying a Cause of Myopia
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Zetsu - 11 Apr 2008 20:47 GMT [...Lying a Cause of Myopia
I may claim to have discovered the fact thai telling lies is bad for the eyes. Whatever bearing this circumstance may have upon the universality of defects of vision, it can easily be demonstrated that it is impossible to say what is not true, even with no intent to deceive, or even to imagine a falsehood, without producing an error of refraction.
If a patient can read all the small letters on the bottom line of the test card, and either deliberately or carelessly miscalls any of them, the retinoscope will indicate an error in refraction. In numerous cases patients have been asked to state their ages incorrectly, or to try to imagine that they were a year older, or a year younger, than they actually were, and in every case when they did this the retinoscope indicated an error of refraction. A patient twenty-five years old had no error of refraction when he looked at a blank wall without trying to see; but if he said he was twenty-six, or if someone else said he was twenty-six, or if he tried to imagine that he was twenty-six, he became myopic. The same thing happened when he stated or tried to imagine that he was twenty-four. When he stated or remembered the truth his vision was normal, but when he stated or imagined an error he had an error of refraction.
Two little girl patients arrived one after the other one day, and the first accused the second of having stopped at Huyler's for an ice- cream soda, which she had been instructed not to do, being somewhat too much addicted to sweets. The second denied the charge, and the first, who had used the retinoscope and knew what it did to people who told lies, said
"Do take the retinoscope and find out."
"I followed the suggestion, and having thrown the light into the second child's eyes, I asked:
"Did you go to Huyler's?"
"Yes," was the response, and the retinoscope indicated no error of refraction.
"Did you have an ice-cream soda?"
"No," Said the child; but the tell-tale shadow moved in a direction opposite to that of the mirror, showing that she had become myopic and was not telling the truth.
The child blushed when I told her this and acknowledged that the retinoscope was right, for she had heard of the ways of the uncanny instrument before and did not know what else it might do to her if she said anything more that was not true.
The fact is that it requires an effort to state what is not true, and this effort always results in a deviation from the normal in the refraction of the eye. So sensitive is the test that if the subject, whether his vision is ordinarily normal, or not, pronounces the initials of his name correctly while looking at a blank surface without trying to see, there will be no error of refraction; but if he miscalls one initial, even without any consciousness of effort, and with full knowledge that he is deceiving no one, myopia will be produced...]
- Dr. W. H. Bates, September 1919
Jan - 14 Apr 2008 22:44 GMT Zetsu schreef:
> [...Lying a Cause of Myopia > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > - Dr. W. H. Bates, September 1919 You just discovered the top secret "lie detector" of the FBI. Keep it a secret.
Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
Pramesh Rutaji - 19 Apr 2008 07:52 GMT > [...Lying a Cause of Myopia Funny, very funny. Deception is part of the natural order of the animal kingdom and you don't find vision problems attributed thereto.
 Signature Pramesh Rutaji
p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
Zetsu - 19 Apr 2008 14:01 GMT > > [...Lying a Cause of Myopia > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > p297tongue6...@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply Like Otis Brown, engineer, you erroneously assume that animals and humans are alike, and therefore all characteristics of vision in relation to mind and body and environment operate in like manner. Humans are very different and you cannot compare them with lower animals, please be aware of this. Humans are given higher intelligence and free will, and with this comes both an advantage and a price, the price being that it can be used for evil as opposed to good. I do not think any animal is evil because they do not have free will, in that the deception and tricks played between predator and prey, in order to secure one's meal or to escape from being a meal, is merely a part integral to their very nature, therefore there is no falsehood in their mind, no real intention to 'deceive' as we humans use the word.
In short, their deception is natural, whereas a human's deception is intellectual. You must realize the difference in order to understand what Bates is talking about in this article.
Pramesh Rutaji - 19 Apr 2008 18:14 GMT >>> [...Lying a Cause of Myopia >> Funny, very funny. Deception is part of the natural order of the animal [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Humans are very different and you cannot compare them with lower > animals, please be aware of this. This is where you are completely wrong. Research uses animals all the time and there are significant similarities. Humans and bonobo chimps for example have 98 percent identical DNA and make almost all the same proteins and participate in most of the same chemical reactions including emotions and deception on purpose.
Humans are given higher intelligence
> and free will, Free will is a debating point especially since no one "gave" it to us, not even casper the friendly ghost.
and with this comes both an advantage and a price, the
> price being that it can be used for evil as opposed to good. This is not a "religious" issue. There is no good or evil but degrees for self interest that depends on time frame and group dynamics.
I do not
> think any animal is evil because they do not have free will, in that > the deception and tricks played between predator and prey, in order to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > intellectual. You must realize the difference in order to understand > what Bates is talking about in this article. Firstly, I didn't read the article and am tempted to start filtering out all discussion that you initiate. I'm not inclined to worship anyone although I give bates the credit of having existed as opposed to being a mythological creation created to manipulate people via religion. You seem to think that bates was inerrant and his every word worthy of adoration without critical evaluation.
I'm very open to current medical eye practices having significant treatment/knowledge errors, some merely created by the way social groups and profit motives work, but I'm not open to bates having discovered all or some truth about human optics that should be worshiped for all time.
Aging is a fact of existence and correcting aspects of it is not merely having the correct "outlook" on life. You're so obsessed with bates that you ought to call him god-bates or maybe "master-bates".
 Signature Pramesh Rutaji
p297tongue6221@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 19 Apr 2008 19:10 GMT Dear Pramesh Rutaji
Subject: Agreement first -- then evaluate.
I like your style. Light, reasonable -- in face of a difficult problem.
After a long review -- I agree that OBJECTING to that minus constitutes the second-opinion.
Thus Bates (and others who are IGNORED) had a number of ideas for PREVENTION (NOT CURE!!!)
Thus if we would restrict Bates to what he FIRST physically ATTEMPTED TO DO -- we might do better.
He spent 10 years attempting to get kids to read their Snellens. (1903 to 1913).
He wrote up some papers -- but did little more than that. Thus in my opinion he made a start FOR PREVENTION.
Also, in my opinion after 1913 he got "carried away", and started making "claims". I think these "claims" in just plain KILLED what was a reasonable start.
But equally, there were other "medical" OBJECTORS (call them second- opinion PREVENTER) who had the same idea.
But all of these concepts (it must be recognized) depend, not on ANY "prescribing authority), but rather on the insight and MOTIVATION of the person himself.
And that will depend on the who the person is, an how strongly he wishes to AVOID entry into a negative refractive STATE.
Thus he must not regard himself as a "patient" but as an intelligent person who is willing to study the issues, and learn WHAT previously has been successful -- and does he wish to follow a PREVENTIVE protocol.
So far -- NO STEPS have been taken in that direction -- AT ALL.
But you have touched on the issues that PREVENT even these first steps.
Just my second-opinion,
> >>> [...Lying a Cause of Myopia > >> Funny, very funny. Deception is part of the natural order of the animal [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Neil Brooks - 19 Apr 2008 23:33 GMT On Apr 19, 11:10 am, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
> Subject: Agreement first -- then evaluate. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > constitutes > the second-opinion. Agree?
You "agree??"
With whom do you agree?
With yourself, of course.
This is where you PRETEND somebody said it ... as you do very often, with many things, and then agree or disagree, according to your fancy. You ... constantly ... put ... words ... in ... other ... people's ... mouths.
It's blatantly intellectually dishonest.
In fact, it's probably among the top 10 reasons why I so correctly point out that you're (an absolute f.cking idiot and) a pathological liar.
Wow.
Neil Brooks - 20 Apr 2008 00:02 GMT > On Apr 19, 11:10 am, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Wow. By the way ... although the sample size here IS exactly one, and although correlation does NOT equal causation ... Otis Brown IS both a pathological liar and a high myope.
It makes one wonder.....
Zetsu - 19 Apr 2008 19:23 GMT > >>> [...Lying a Cause of Myopia > >> Funny, very funny. Deception is part of the natural order of the animal [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > p297tongue6...@newsguy.com - remove tongue to reply Pramesh,
I appreciate your critisisms, and will try to take what you say into account.
I do not believe Bates was infallible (no human ever is) but I do think he was a very intelligent and observant scientist who has made timeless discoveries in curing imperfect sight that can be studied and applied for many years to come and will prevent and relieve much ocular disfunction and suffering when used intelligently.
If you wish to kill file me, then please do so, as there is no loss to me.
Neil Brooks - 19 Apr 2008 23:29 GMT On Apr 19, 10:14 am, Pramesh Rutaji <p297tongue6...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> Firstly, I didn't read the article and am tempted to start filtering out > all discussion that you initiate. I'm not inclined to worship anyone > although I give bates the credit of having existed as opposed to being a > mythological creation created to manipulate people via religion. You > seem to think that bates was inerrant and his every word worthy of > adoration without critical evaluation. Well ... if nothing else, Pramesh, you ARE a quick study ;-)
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