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Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2008

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Who Killed the Bates Successful 1913 Study?

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otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 19 Mar 2008 17:56 GMT
Dear Bates-prevention friends,

Subject: Introduction to Bates "Method".

Re: Bates EXCELLENT 1913 Study.

It always wrong to lift a statement out of context.

The Bates 1913 study made it clear that the kids SHOULD
NOT BE WEARING MINUS LENSES if they wished
to clear their Snellens from 20/60 BACK TO NORMAL.

Thus he would have made it clear to the 20/60 kids that it is:

"absolutely necessary that the glasses be discarded"

In that context he was correct.

We have heard endless words about the Bates "Method".

But the only place where I can find the "Method" is Bates where he
described it in the 1913 Study.

So when someone says, "...you don't understand Bates".

Or you do not understand "... his method", then I would
restart a complete review of what he said the
only true Bates-preventive effort I could find.

The "jury" is still "out" on Bates prevention, as
well as the SUCCESS of the 1913 study.

Why? Because after he was successful the powers-that-be
came in, removed all the Snellens, and that
was the end of that.

If you want to prove Bates "wrong" -- then give the Bates
people the support they might need -- and see what
will happen.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 19 Mar 2008 18:00 GMT
Subject:  A majority-opinion of the 1913 Study -- and its presumed
"failure"

Re: Review of "exercise" and Bates with commentary

1948; 46; 284-294

From:  S. Judd Beach M.D.

"MYOPIA CURES"

S. JUDD BEACH, M.D. Portland. Maine

The purpose of this communication is to discuss some
evi¬dence consistent with the unorthodox theory that improve¬ment
in vision in nearsighted persons which follows sight training
exercises may in some instances be due to a genuine reduction of
the myopia. This was the claim of Bates and of Simpkins. Though
scouted by most authorities, it still has advocates, especially
among laymen. Patients devoted to these courses for "perfect
sight without glasses" have always been convinced that they see
more clearly. Occasionally they have come under observation of
ophthalmologists. The general conclusion is that the gain is in
improved recognition of objects which are not actually seen more
distinctly.

Recently two series of cases were studied, one by Post and
his group, the other by Woods and his associates. Post says,
"Most improvement was on the cerebral level, rather than on the
retinal level," and Woods is convinced that "the training had no
effect on the myopia, but educated some patients to interpret
retinal images more carefully." In other words, they conclude that
visual training makes observation more accurate; it does not
increase visual acuity. This view is summarized in an editorial
in the Journal of the American Medical Association (April 24,
1948).

Such training of the observation is a common experience.
Printers are found to identify letters so small that persons not
familiar with the shapes of type are unable to distinguish them,
even when their visual acuity is as good. Sailors on our coast
will recognize a ship on the horizon which is invisible to
landlubbers, and will often determine its course. This reasonable
explanation is so comfortable and convenient

===============

Review: This is a very poor review of the Bates 1913 study.
They made statements that the person "noticed improvement". They
did not notice that the kid cleared his Snellen from 20/60 to
normal, and that this was CONFIRMED by a RANDOM SNELLEN, and this
could not be "cheated". I was truly an OBJECTIVE measurement of
Visual Acuity.

Other "skips". The totally ignored the fact that there are
OTHER methods of myopia PREVENTION. They just classify ALL
METHODS as "Bates".

Any future study must take this kind of casual bias into
consideration. That is why I strongly suggest that the person
have the Skill to make objective measurements of BOTH his visual
acuity AND his refractive STATE.

The complete S. Judd Beach article is now available for free on
PubMed!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1312764

I think that studies that do not engage the intelligence
and MOTIVATION of the person HIMSELF will fail.

Otis

===================

On Mar 19, 12:56 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
> Dear Bates-prevention friends,
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> people the support they might need -- and see what
> will happen.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 19 Mar 2008 18:05 GMT
And for those who can actuallly read (in an impartial manner) here
is that famous 1913 study -- the everyone wishes to discredit.

http://www.central-fixation.com/batesmed/myopiaprevention.htm

Enjoy,

On Mar 19, 1:00 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
> Subject:  A majority-opinion of the 1913 Study -- and its presumed
> "failure"
[quoted text clipped - 114 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Zetsu - 19 Mar 2008 18:53 GMT
We regret to announce something that should be put to the forefront of
the reader's attention: Otis Brown is a fool who believes in a certain
method called 'Plus Lens' that seeks to prevent the development of
myopia. We ask that you do not confuse this man's strange advice for
the true, original Bates System.

All form of lenses is contrary to the teachings of Perfect Sight. The
advice given to anyone following the treatment is to permanently
discard the lenses without argument or talk. IN THE CASE OF MYOPIA,
PLUS LENSES ARE ESPECIALLY HARMFUL AND NO SUCCESS MAY BE ATTAINED
UNDER THEIR INFLUENCE!

Thank you for your True Dedication.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 19 Mar 2008 20:21 GMT
Dear Second-opinion friends,

Professor Bates was an excellent ophthalmologist.  He had a good
heart, and a good mind.  His 1913 study was well organized, and
if supported -- could have developed further.

His "claims" were VERY LIMITED.  They were that if the person
HAD THE MOTIVATION, then reasonable SNELLEN CLEARING WAS POSSIBLE.

But that does depend on the person himself.

Tragically, his good intentions were "hijacked" by some inane "flakes"
that
do not understand that 1913 study.

Thus, the  majoirty-opinion OD rejects, no Bates -- the true
professional -- but
all the flaky and excessive claims and statements of these flakes.

No wonder we remain "frozen" with the traditional method of the
last 300 years.

Just my opinion,

> We regret to announce something that should be put to the forefront of
> the reader's attention: Otis Brown is a fool who believes in a certain
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Thank you for your True Dedication.
spammer - 20 Mar 2008 01:39 GMT
You two idiots sooooo deserve each other.
Dr. Leukoma - 20 Mar 2008 13:00 GMT
On Mar 19, 2:21 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> Thus, the  majoirty-opinion OD rejects, no Bates -- the true
> professional -- but
> all the flaky and excessive claims and statements of these flakes.

It is sometimes difficult to tell the nuts from the flakes, if you get
my drift.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 20 Mar 2008 16:16 GMT
Yes, "L", but it is possible to identify Dr. Bates (good heart)
second-opinion from your majority opinion -- where you
insist that the fundamental eye is NOT A DYNAMIC
SYSTEM -- BY OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING.

Enjoy,

> On Mar 19, 2:21 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> It is sometimes difficult to tell the nuts from the flakes, if you get
> my drift.
Dr. Leukoma - 20 Mar 2008 16:55 GMT
> Yes, "L", but it is possible to identify Dr. Bates (good heart)
> second-opinion from your majority opinion -- where you
> insist that the fundamental eye is NOT A DYNAMIC
> SYSTEM -- BY OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING.

Flakes and nuts are often found together in the same cereal bowl.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 20 Mar 2008 18:34 GMT
Yes "L".

I am certain that the poorly qualified "bleeders" of 300 years ago
said the same thing about doctors who began to understand
the germ concept.  They were defending their "bleeding"
practice, and were of no help for the prevention of disease.

Thus the concept of Bates PREVENTIVE work, and the
reason to describe these methods as the second-opinion.

Cheers,

> > Yes, "L", but it is possible to identify Dr. Bates (good heart)
> > second-opinion from your majority opinion -- where you
> > insist that the fundamental eye is NOT A DYNAMIC
> > SYSTEM -- BY OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING.
>
> Flakes and nuts are often found together in the same cereal bowl.
Dr. Leukoma - 20 Mar 2008 19:07 GMT
> Yes "L".
>
> I am certain that the poorly qualified "bleeders" of 300 years ago
> said the same thing about doctors who began to understand
> the germ concept.  They were defending their "bleeding"
> practice, and were of no help for the prevention of disease.

...and thus you would take us back to "bleeding"?
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 21 Mar 2008 00:20 GMT
No, but you do, since you seem to not be aware of "germs" or
any new concept in prevention.

Why not read:

www.chinamyopia.org

to study what you truly do not understand.

The PREVENTIVE second-opinion.

Enjoy,

> > Yes "L".
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ...and thus you would take us back to "bleeding"?
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Mar 2008 02:43 GMT
> Why not read:
>
> www.chinamyopia.org
>
> to study what you truly do not understand.

So, I see it is back to "bleeding."
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 21 Mar 2008 03:25 GMT
No,"L", we are doing a retro-spective on how new concepts,
like "washing hands" are "fought" so long by the status quo,
and the issues the grow out of that retrospective.

Enjoy,

> > Why not read:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> So, I see it is back to "bleeding."
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Mar 2008 03:47 GMT
> No,"L", we are doing a retro-spective on how new concepts,
> like "washing hands" are "fought" so long by the status quo,
> and the issues the grow out of that retrospective.

From Wikepedia:

"The Arabian mathematician Ibn Sahl (c.940-c.1000) used what is now
known as Snell's law to calculate the shape of lenses.[5] Ibn al-
Haitham (965-1038) wrote the first major optical treatise, the Book of
Optics, which described how the lens in the human eye formed an image
on the retina.

Excavations at the Viking harbour town of Fröjel, Gotland, Sweden
discovered in 1999 the rock crystal Visby lenses, produced by turning
on pole-lathes at Fröjel in the 11th to 12th century, with an imaging
quality comparable to that of 1950s aspheric lenses. The Viking lenses
concentrate sunlight enough to ignite fires.

Widespread use of lenses did not occur until the use of reading stones
in the 11th century and the invention of spectacles, probably in Italy
in the 1280s. Nicholas of Cusa is believed to have been the first to
discover the benefits of concave lenses for the treatment of myopia in
1451."

Plus lenses have been around for at least 9 centuries, and predated
minus lenses by at least 2 centuries.  So much for your "new
prevention."

Enjoy.
Dr Judy - 21 Mar 2008 16:12 GMT
> Yes "L".
>
> I am certain that the poorly qualified "bleeders" of 300 years ago
> said the same thing about doctors who began to understand
> the germ concept.  They were defending their "bleeding"
> practice, and were of no help for the prevention of disease.

If you are going to use that analogy, you should remember that Bates
was analogous to the "bleeders".

Bates clung to outdated concepts of how the eye worked including
control of accommodation by obliques, eye strain leading to myopia,
eye enlongation when reading, "dangers" of using minus lenses.    The
new concepts were those of Helmholtz:  ciliary muscle control of
accommodation, no eye enlongation while reading.

Judy
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 21 Mar 2008 18:46 GMT
Not according to Zits.  He thinks Bates was a God.

> > Yes "L".
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Judy
Szczepan Bialek - 21 Mar 2008 19:21 GMT
"Dr Judy"

>Bates clung to outdated concepts of how the eye worked including
control of accommodation by obliques, eye strain leading to myopia,
eye enlongation when reading, "dangers" of using minus lenses.    The
new concepts were those of Helmholtz:  ciliary muscle control of
accommodation, no eye enlongation while reading.

Are you sure?
I repeat my question (early to Mike):
"And what is your opinion on that: " The
retinoscope showed that when I tried to see anything at the near-point
without glasses my eyes were focussed for the distance, and when I
tried to see anything at the distance they were focussed for the near-
point. My problem, then, was to find some way of reversing this
condition and inducing my eyes to focus for the point I wished to see
at the moment that I wished to see it."

I have the questions to the all ODs. Is this Dr Bates case a common case?
Are similar cases at myopia?
If they are, when it would be sensible to find "some way of reversing this
condition and inducing my eyes to focus for the point I wished to see
at the moment that I wished to see it."

To do this Dr Bates recommend the relaxation and Bershak the divergence.
Maybe that they are the same. Now it is very important to agree if now are
people who have reversed (incorrect) pointing/focussing operation."

There are the possibility that are such. Activating of the obligue muscles
automatically activate the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER.
Smaller pupil give better vision at strong light. So some people can
unconsciously use obligues for better far.vision.
Mike wrote about "lag of accomodation". What is your opinion?
S*

Judy
Mike Tyner - 22 Mar 2008 04:33 GMT
"Szczepan Bialek" <sz.bialek@wp.pl>

> There are the possibility that are such. Activating of the obligue muscles
> automatically activate the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER.

Erroneous assumption. Google "near triad".

The ciliary muscle does not make the pupil smaller and the oblique muscles
do not "activate" the ciliary or the pupil.

> Smaller pupil give better vision at strong light. So some people can
> unconsciously use obligues for better far.vision.

If the oblique muscles had anything to do with pupils.

Google "Edinger-Westphal nucleus".

Converging the eyes makes the pupil smaller. Converging the eyes makes the
ciliary contract.

Cross your eyes and your pupils get smaller.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 22 Mar 2008 10:07 GMT
"Mike Tyner"

> Google "Edinger-Westphal nucleus".
>
> Converging the eyes makes the pupil smaller. Converging the eyes makes the
> ciliary contract.
>
> Cross your eyes and your pupils get smaller.

For me the above is the same as: "Activating of the obligue muscles
automatically activate the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER."
Converging is made by activating of the obligue muscles. Do you agree?
S*
Mike Tyner - 22 Mar 2008 13:42 GMT
> Converging is made by activating of the obligue muscles. Do you agree?

No.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 22 Mar 2008 19:32 GMT
>> Converging is made by activating of the obligue muscles. Do you agree?
>
> No.

" Cross your eyes and your pupils get smaller."

Which muscles should I use to cross my eyes. Obligue or recti?
I am not fluent in English.. Is not converging the same as cross?
But here is important only that "pupils get smaller" when we activate one
(obligue or recti) muscle.
S*
Mike Tyner - 23 Mar 2008 01:09 GMT
> Which muscles should I use to cross my eyes. Obligue or recti?

How would you choose one or the other?

Just cross your eyes.

If you can do it, you used your medial recti.

Lateral movement is only a minor function of the oblique muscles but the
obliques function to DIverge (move AWAY from the nose), not to CONverge.

> I am not fluent in English.. Is not converging the same as cross?

Yes. Convergence means coming together.

> But here is important only that "pupils get smaller" when we activate one
> (obligue or recti) muscle.

What's important is that convergence, accommodation and miosis (small pupil)
all happen together. You can't do one without doing the other two.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 23 Mar 2008 17:16 GMT
"Mike Tyner"

>> Which muscles should I use to cross my eyes. Obligue or recti?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Lateral movement is only a minor function of the oblique muscles but the
> obliques function to DIverge (move AWAY from the nose), not to CONverge.

Now I know what mistake I did. I was thinking about No 4 and 5 from the
sketch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraocular_muscles
I was almost sure that recti is for far seeing and oblique for close. The
both change the angles but in different planes. I am here to lern before my
date with OD.

>> I am not fluent in English.. Is not converging the same as cross?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> What's important is that convergence, accommodation and miosis (small
> pupil) all happen together. You can't do one without doing the other two.

So my steatment: "Activating of the obligue muscles automatically activate
the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER." should be:
"Activating of the medial rectus muscles automatically activate the ciliary
muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER."

Thanks for free English lesson.
S*
Jason Sperry - 23 Mar 2008 20:35 GMT
> Thanks for free English lesson.
> S*

Yolu welclumomu.!!!!!11111onetw愛oooofreezohあおえ愛jふBぉいあMjうぇeおtいhfj

Sorry lol, I had imperfect sight when I typed that. :P

I'm high on BATES METHods. Get it?
Szczepan Bia?ek - 24 Mar 2008 17:20 GMT
"Jason Sperry"

>> Thanks for free English lesson.
>> S*
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I'm high on BATES METHods. Get it?

Maybe you know the answer for my question regarding Dr Bates statement:

" The retinoscope showed that when I tried to see anything at the near-point
without glasses my eyes were focussed for the distance, and when I
tried to see anything at the distance they were focussed for the near-
point. My problem, then, was to find some way of reversing this
condition and inducing my eyes to focus for the point I wished to see
at the moment that I wished to see it."

I have the questions to the all ODs. Is this Dr Bates case a common case?
Are similar cases at myopia?
S*
Zetsu - 24 Mar 2008 19:26 GMT
I am not an OD (far from) but I will try to answer what I think is
your question.

Are you asking: is Dr.Bates case of recovery common? Can the imperfect
sight of myopia be relieved using similar treatment?

So here's the answer.

No, Dr.Bates case of recovery is not 'common'. In that I mean, if you
were to take a look at all the records of the ODs, you would be
unlikely to find presbyopia cures. Perhaps one in every thousand or
so. But, the ODs don't care about n=1. The small cases are always
explained away one way or another. "Oh, that was lag of accomodation.
Oh yeah, that one was pseudomyopia. Oh erm, he never needed glasses in
the first place. It was a mistake."

They don't consider that perhaps, if something triggered a cure in
that n=1 patient, perhaps the same could happen for other patients
too?

However this is remarkably foolish to disregard even the very tiniest
statistical proportion in a set of results. If something works for one
person, who is to say it can't work for another?

The doctors here don't like 'anecdotes'. It's worthless to them. Even
when the anecdotes rise to a scale in the region of thousands, or
hundreds of thousands, as evidenced by Dr.Bates in his clinical
reports and by Emily Lierman. When anecdotes are in the region of
thousands, one should, by scientific reasoning, no longer refer to it
as merely the odd anecdote - because it's a statistical SIGNIFICANCE.

Anyway what I am saying is that, no Dr.Bates recovery of presbyopia is
not common. But that's not to say it is impossible or non-duplicable.

Mike Tyner often argues to me that when miraculous results appear such
as in the experience of Dr.Bates, and no other ophthalmologist or
optometrist has ever, in the last 100 years, seen similar results to
his, it must therefore be not-possible to duplicate the same results.

This kind of logic is entirely WRONG! How can one possibly expect to
duplicate the RESULTS of Dr.Bates, when they have not yet duplicated
the EFFORTS required in the first place.

No single eye-doctor that I ever heard of has worked as hard as
Dr.Bates did in his lifetime. After the 20th century, he devoted his
LIFE to curing imperfect eyesight. So remarkable was his level of
determination. Now tell me, how can you expect to pass an exam with
100% correct answers when you haven't WORKED for it in the first
place?

Thus we are brought back to the main discussion - here we are in the
21st century. And no SINGLE person has EVER duplicated the efforts and
tedious work spent in researchin the problem that Dr.Bates did, as
well as his patients who were successful with the method.

We are truly in a LAZY generation. I've asked the people here 'why
don't you try out and see what happens'. They refuse. What is to be
done? How can progress be made if one is not willing to try something
different from the norm? How can you say 'this fruit tastes horrible',
when you have not yet tried eating it?

--

Your second question being 'can myopia be relieved by the same
treatment' (although correct me if I have misinterpreted). The simple,
blunt answer is, as Jason Sperry put it, YES. The Bates Method just
works. There's nothing magical about it, nothing paranormal, nothing
supernatural - it just works, as nature works to sustain life by
providing it with rain, food, plants, predators, prey, etc. It is just
something that works, by default.

But, there is a slight dispute, unfortunately, which convinces people
that Bates Method is fake and cannot possibly cure myopia. ODs and
other eye doctors here refer to the existence something known as
'pseudomyopia', AKA functional myopia. This is myopia that, according
to them, will indeed respond to rest treatment (Bates, visual
training, eye exercies, pinhole glasses, etc.). Usually, it is in the
lesser degrees of the defect, i.e. -1, -2 dioptres. In Snellen chart
terms this is about 20/200 at the most. (But, FYI there's no precise
measurement you can use to convert dioptres to snellen, since they are
very different in their original mechanical premises).

The ODs say that this variety of myopia can and often does recover,
especially in the sight of children, and teenagers. This type of
myopia is used to distinguish itself from another type, 'axial-length
myopia', AKA organic myopia. This breed, according to the doctors,
cannot under any treatment ever devised today, be cured. This is a
frequent counter argument used to explain away cures of myopia by
those who have undergone the Bates treatment. But the theory fails on
several levels. I will say a few below, although there are many more
counter arguments:

1) What about the people who go suddenly from 20/400+ imperfect sight
all the way back to normal vision - 20/20, in what are described as
'clear flashes'.
2) What about the people, such as Rishi Giovanni Gatti, Evaristo
Recaciti, and the thousands of patients treated under the care of
Bates and his wife Emily? You know - the ones who started out at -10
dioptres of imperfect sight and still got better! Hey, rest assured,
the ODs can magically explain this away too. "Oh, sometimes
pseudomyopia 'extends' itself to 10 dioptres. Yeah, myopia is still
incurable I'm afraid." There are other points but I haven't got time
to write them now.

HOW DO THE ODs EXPLAIN THAT?

... no response, brush it aside, "you are just lying. You didn't cure
your myopia", "you are deceiving yourself", "you're imagining it
mate..." "erm, gotta go."

Anyway, I hope that answered your question.
Szczepan Bialek - 25 Mar 2008 18:55 GMT
>I am not an OD (far from) but I will try to answer what I think is
> your question.
>
> Are you asking: is Dr.Bates case of recovery common? Can the imperfect
> sight of myopia be relieved using similar treatment?

No. My question was very simple. Dr Bates case was:

" The retinoscope showed that when I tried to see anything at the near-point
without glasses my eyes were focussed for the distance, and when I
tried to see anything at the distance they were focussed for the near-
point."

It was incorrect (reversed) condition. So my question was:

"I have the questions to the all ODs. Is this Dr Bates case a common case?
Are similar cases at myopia?"

If the answer is yes than such case should be named "the Bates syndrome" and
put into textbooks.
I am sure that it is at least partly truth. The word myopic is Greek origin
and means "half-open" eye. Myopic strain that external muscles which
activate accommodation. Simultaneously pupil becomes smaller. In strong
light such condition gives better vision. But it is incorrect (reversed)
condition.

The rest of Dr Bates statement:
"My problem, then, was to find some way of reversing this
condition and inducing my eyes to focus for the point I wished to see
at the moment that I wished to see it."

It seems that Dr Bates found "some way of reversing this condition". But he
wrote so much.
My question is very simple. All ODs probably know the answer. Of course I am
talking about eye without glasses.
S*
.
Zetsu - 25 Mar 2008 19:51 GMT
Sorry dude, I can't figure out what you're asking.
I'll try and guess:

Are you asking: 'Do ODs know the cure of imperfect sight'?
The answer is: No they don't.

Are you asking: What was this "some way of reversing this condition"
that Bates talked about?
The answer is: Resting the eyes and stopping the effort.

Or maybe you are asking about strain at the near point causing far
sightedness and vice versa? Well, why don't you go to the OD and test
it out yourself? Tell him: measure my refraction while I strain to see
this page. Then tell him to test you while you strain at the distance.

So that way you will have your answer.

Anyway mate, my advice to you is this. Stop trying to learn about all
the muscles in the eye and whatnot. Stop trying to figure out what
activates this and the other. You'll just end up confusing yourself
and it's not important in the cure of imperfect sight. If you want to
just get cured the proper way then read Dr. Bates works. Don't follow
Bereshak, please. It is not the right path. Trust me I know. Bereshak
is completely absolutely 100% the wrong way to go. It's just another
'Vision For Life' kind of thing.

Once you get cured, then you can learn about the eye muscles to your
own leisure.

But it looks to me like you are thinking: 'if I learn about every
single eye muscle I'll be able to change my refraction by controlling
them individually'. It doesn't work like that. You can't consciously
try and control your eye muscles. That will just make things worse,
believe me. Let them do as they are doing. They are fine. It is not
their strength or ability to co-ordinate, or inablity to 'activate'.
It is not that they are 'weak'. They are strong enough already.

It is simply that they are under a strain and this strain is due to a
mental strain. The strain causes imperfect sight.

There is nothing complex about the problem. It's so easy.

Just follow the advice of Dr. Bates and you will see much better
results in your quest to cure your defect. You can't follow Bates and
Bereshak at the same time, because they teach opposite things. Bates
teaches non effort, Bereshak teaches more effort. More effort is
always a strain which will deeply impediment your progress. I repeat,
discard Bereshak Method. Follow Bates.

I am saying this from my own experience. Bates' methods work. Stuff
like exercising the eyes don't work. For a long time I tried to follow
exercise programs to no avail. Don't repeat my mistake and that of
many others. Learn from my own folly. Take the short way around.

;)
Mike Tyner - 26 Mar 2008 01:49 GMT
> Are you asking: What was this "some way of reversing this condition"
> that Bates talked about?
> The answer is: Resting the eyes and stopping the effort.

Gullible.

-MT
Szczepan Bialek - 26 Mar 2008 10:32 GMT
> Sorry dude, I can't figure out what you're asking.
> I'll try and guess:
>
> Are you asking: 'Do ODs know the cure of imperfect sight'?
> The answer is: No they don't.

Not that.

> Are you asking: What was this "some way of reversing this condition"
> that Bates talked about?
> The answer is: Resting the eyes and stopping the effort.

Not that.

> Or maybe you are asking about strain at the near point causing far
> sightedness and vice versa?

Yes.

>Well, why don't you go to the OD and test
> it out yourself? Tell him: measure my refraction while I strain to see
> this page. Then tell him to test you while you strain at the distance.

Dr Bates did it with his friend. The two OD do it better than one and
patient.

>. You can't consciously  try and control your eye muscles.

The four recti muscles are controlled consciously. The two obliques and the
internal are actvated automatical.

> That will just make things worse,  believe me. Let them do as they are
> doing. They are fine. It is not
> their strength or ability to co-ordinate, or inablity to 'activate'.
> It is not that they are 'weak'. They are strong enough already.

Yes. But it means "do not keep the eyes half open and do not try very hard
to see. Do something quite opposite.

> It is simply that they are under a strain and this strain is due to a
> mental strain. The strain causes imperfect sight.

Yes.

> There is nothing complex about the problem. It's so easy.
>
> Just follow the advice of Dr. Bates and you will see much better
> results in your quest to cure your defect. You can't follow Bates and
> Bereshak at the same time, because they teach opposite things.

They botch teach how to release the chronically tight muscles.

>Bates  teaches non effort, Bereshak teaches more effort.

It is matter of methodology. To make eye half-open you must activate some
muscles. To do the opposite you must activate the antagonistic. Both needs
"effort". Maybe that gentle are better. But at beginning you must lern to
fill the muscles. Bigger effort better filling.

> More effort is  always a strain which will deeply impediment your
> progress.

If I try very hard to see in the "half-open" mode. To relaxed this mode I
must activate the antagonistic muscles.

>I repeat,  discard Bereshak Method. Follow Bates.

They are the same. The differences are in semantic, methodology and in
terminology.
S*
Zetsu - 26 Mar 2008 12:00 GMT
Don't think about your eyes. Forget all about the muscles. It's not
important. You are bringing a new strain on yourself just by even
thinking about them, strange as it may sound.

Trying to control the muscles of the eye is like trying to control
muscles of the heart. It's not a very sensible thing to do.

With the heart, you could affect the muscles by causing them to pump
faster, by simply inhaling and exhaling more rapidly. So you are not
directly trying to impose on them a function or a way that you want
them to operate. In fact, the attempt to do so would be dangerous.

Likewise there are other methods that you can use to indirectly affect
the eye and release that tension. And that's what Bates is all
about.That 'other method' is known as the rest methods.

Bates and Bereshak, they are not the same. Bates has incorporated the
mind into the picture and by doing so he has unlocked the key to
perfect sight.
Zetsu - 26 Mar 2008 12:53 GMT
>Dr Bates did it with his friend. The two OD do it better than one and
>patient.

The other guy wasn't an OD. He was just a physician or something that
Bates thought might be able to help him out. Bates just taught him how
to use the retinoscope to measure refraction. It's not that hard from
the sounds of it. I'm sure you could even buy your own measurement
devices nowadays, and it wouldn't be expensive. EBAY it !

>If I try very hard to see in the "half-open" mode.

lol . Are you referring to 'squinting'? As in, this:

http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/g/ga/gabetarian/555352_squinting_eye.jpg

?

>It is matter of methodology. To make eye half-open you must activate some
>muscles. To do the opposite you must activate the antagonistic. Both needs
>"effort". Maybe that gentle are better.

That's a very wrong approach that Dr.Bates frequently warned his
patients against. You cannot cure imperfect sight, which is caused by
one strain, by replacing it with another strain. The trick is to DO
NOTHING AT ALL. The strain is caused because you are doing something.

Don't think in terms of antagonistic muscles.
Think in terms of stopping all effort.

When you're squinting (half closing the eye in such a way that the
pinhole effect is produced), it takes a conscious effort on your part.
Letting go of that effort doesn't take a conscious act. It just takes
release from the conscious act you are already doing. Don't try to
'activate opposite muscles'. It's the absolutely wrong way.
Szczepan Bialek - 26 Mar 2008 19:37 GMT
"Zetsu" <

> lol . Are you referring to 'squinting'? As in, this:
>
> http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/g/ga/gabetarian/555352_squinting_eye.jpg

Yes.

Don't try to  'activate opposite muscles'. It's the absolutely wrong way.

I will try VERY gentle. But it is the lateral recti (one in one eye). Try it
yourself. If you do it the eye seams to be relaxed.
S*
Zetsu - 26 Mar 2008 20:23 GMT
It doesn't matter whether the effort you exert is gentle or non-
gentle.

ALL effort is injurious to the sight.

This may not appear so temporarily because one is able to gain a
temporary sharpness of vision by squinting - however continued use of
this kind of effort is very, very harmful.

The only case in which effort is beneficial to the sight is when one
can demonstrate that the sight is always lowered sooner or later and
by doing so becomes able to release the unconscious effort.
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 00:57 GMT
> ALL effort is injurious to the sight.

Fiction.

> This may not appear so temporarily because one is able to gain a
> temporary sharpness of vision by squinting - however continued use of
> this kind of effort is very, very harmful.

Fiction.

> The only case in which effort is beneficial to the sight is when one
> can demonstrate that the sight is always lowered sooner or later and
> by doing so becomes able to release the unconscious effort.

Fiction.

-MT
Szczepan Bialek - 27 Mar 2008 10:05 GMT
"Zetsu"

> ALL effort is injurious to the sight.
>
> This may not appear so temporarily because one is able to gain a
> temporary sharpness of vision by squinting - however continued use of
> this kind of effort is very, very harmful.

I understand that squinting " is very, very harmful.". For this reason use
of that muscles that do it is not allowed. To achive it we should do all
movements (up, down, left, right) with activating of the lateral recti
muscles. We can move the eyes without effort but we must activate that
proper muscle which are "voluntary".
S*

.
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 13:28 GMT
> I understand that squinting " is very, very harmful."

Then you believe a fiction.

What harm does squinting do?

It causes wrinkles, maybe. It does not harm the eye. That's nonsense.

You should be skeptical of anything else you hear from the same source.

-MT
Zetsu - 27 Mar 2008 14:07 GMT
It might not have a direct, immediately visible harm. Quite the
contrary, in fact. But it sets an idea into the mind of the patient
that 'effort is beneficial'. When one effort is manifest, other
efforts are likely to manifest. Effort is a strain. Strain causes
imperfect sight.

That's the harm it does.

Also yes squinting makes your face get wrinkles. You Mr Tyner, might
not care about wrinkles. But for some of us, we'd prefer to stay
looking young.
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 14:20 GMT
> efforts are likely to manifest. Effort is a strain. Strain causes
> imperfect sight.
>
> That's the harm it does.

Fiction.

-MT
Neil Brooks - 27 Mar 2008 14:28 GMT
> It might not have a direct, immediately visible harm. Quite the
> contrary, in fact. But it sets an idea into the mind of the patient
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> That's the harm it does.

Does it also cause global warming?

The minute you state the case you made above, you move into the realm
of Otis's "reasoning" and the lovely world of "post hoc ergo propter
hoc."

You may as well blame it on the various gods to whom the animists
might pray for good crops.  That's really your only viable audience,
anyway.

Ask Mike about shark repellent.  It could be your next crusade.

Give me your /actual/ e-mail address.  I'll send you an invite to
faith.vision.  Otis awaits.
Szczepan Bia³ek - 28 Mar 2008 09:32 GMT
"Mike Tyner"

> You should be skeptical of anything else you hear from the same source.

I am here for two month and I am all time sceptical.
Now I know that:
1. Myopia can be repaired permanently but nobody know how ( or no one
commonly accepted procedure) .
2. Sometimes appear better vision like clear flashes:
" Clear flashes can easily be explained by a brief release in the excessive
tonic parasympathetic innervation and/or
brief burst of sympathetic innervation, as Judy has previously explained.
Optometrists routinely see these bursts of decreased myopia or increased
hyperopia on examination with the retinoscope. This is an instrument that
enables us to see the light that reflects back out from the retina. We can
see the powers of the eye changing with time as the eye relaxes. And, in
some cases, one observes flashes of reduced myopia that cannot be found on
most occasions of subjective testing."

It seams that we have not sufficient knowledge about eye muscles to do the
procedure.
S*
Mike Tyner - 28 Mar 2008 12:42 GMT
> I am here for two month and I am all time sceptical.
> Now I know that:
> 1. Myopia can be repaired permanently

Where have you ever seen this happen? You are not enough skeptical.

Myopia often decreases in adults. That doesn't mean it has been "repaired".

I saw it several times this week. Those people weren't trying to "repair"
their myopia.

> but nobody know how ( or no one commonly accepted procedure) .

You assume there is a "procedure."

I assume it is a natural phenomenon because at that same age, farsighted
people get _worse_.

> 2. Sometimes appear better vision like clear flashes:

In 25 years I've never seen a "clear flash".

> Optometrists routinely see these bursts of decreased myopia or increased
> hyperopia on examination with the retinoscope.

I don't. The retinoscope often measures slightly less myopia but it isn't a
"burst." It's there every time you measure.

> some cases, one observes flashes of reduced myopia that cannot be found on
> most occasions of subjective testing."

I don't observe "flashes." I observe retinoscopy to measure slightly less
myopia than subjective testing. In farsighted people, retinoscopy usually
measures MORE than subjective testing. It's the same thing in both cases,
called tonic accommodation.

> It seams that we have not sufficient knowledge about eye muscles to do the
> procedure.

Myopia isn't caused by muscles. It's caused by cartilage.

The eyeball is cartilage. When it grows too long, you get myopia. It doesn't
shrink just because you want it to.

-MT
Zetsu - 28 Mar 2008 13:22 GMT
How long have you been an optometrist, Tyner?

I am curious. 30 years?

And you have never once seen "clear flash"?

Really?
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Mar 2008 13:53 GMT
> How long have you been an optometrist, Tyner?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Really?

Ditto here.

Nobody has ever reported to me that they have seen something even
remotely resembling a "clear flash."  This would seem to be a
subjective community experience that is unique to some kind of a cult.

I do experience clear vision though, and it is more than a flash.
Mike Tyner - 28 Mar 2008 14:56 GMT
> How long have you been an optometrist, Tyner?

I passed state board exams in 1985.

> And you have never once seen "clear flash"?
>
> Really?

That surprises you, does it?

Like Dr. L, not only have I never observed one, I've never had a single
patient volunteer anything about having a "clear flash". You'd think they'd
say something, yes? Nah. They all cured themselves so they never go to
doctors.

I never heard of clear flashes until I read about it from Bates disciples.

In my experience, clear flashes are fiction.

-MT
Zetsu - 28 Mar 2008 15:16 GMT
Yes I am very surprised
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 15:35 GMT
Dear Majority-opinion friend,

Subject:  A person confirms a "clear flash" on her Snellen.

Yes, YOU NEVER SEE what you do not what to SEE.  We all agree on that
point.

But here is a woman working on Snellen clearing who PERSONALLY checked
her
Snellen:

Today, Friday March 21, I was able to read the 30 line on the Snellen
card from 20 feet!   I was so excited that I started to cry and
hyperventilate!  It's hard to express in words the excitement and joy
I felt from this experience but his has given me so much motivation
and hope.

I could reliably maintain a reading of 20/70, albeit I can't read the
'F' very sharply.   If I can maintain this visual acuity for one week
I will post this as permanent progress!  My vision at 10 feet has
maintained at 10/40 for this past week.
This was all possible while incorporating what I learned about the
Eyebody Method from Greg, my NVT (natural vision teacher).   See my
post on the Eyebody Method for more information.  I would rest my eyes
through palming if they felt tired and then use the 'experiential
anatomy' with my eyes closed before reading the Snellen card.

=========

Also, in her initial checks, she could not pass the 20/200 line.  But
of course her Snellen clearing was
confirmed by herself -- and not by you.

Second-opinion best,

> > How long have you been an optometrist, Tyner?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> -MT
Neil Brooks - 28 Mar 2008 16:26 GMT
On Mar 28, 7:35 am, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> Yes, YOU NEVER SEE what you do not what to SEE.  We all agree on that
> point.

Why ... AGAIN ... are you trying to speak for ANYBODY OTHER THAN
YOURSELF?

When you do, you tend to ... um ... well ... lie.

> But here is a woman working on Snellen clearing who PERSONALLY checked
> her
> Snellen:

OH, GOD!  Here comes yet another unverifiable, third-hand anecdote,
proffered by somebody with a proven propensity for prevarication.

Thanks, Otis.  That adds a lot to the dialogue [/sarcasm].

For those with accommodative myopia, relief may be had through
periocular warming -- placing a warm (NOT HOT) bag of corn or rice
over the closed eyes after reading, and a few times during the day.

This also helps warm the meibum, stabilizing the tear film layer -- a
critical component in overall refraction and clear vision.

It's also a good idea to try any sort of "ocular motility" exercises
(like yoga for the eyes), and to practice /meticulous/ visual hygiene.

And ... like in every other facet of life ... good diet, lots of fresh
air and sunshine, and vigorous exercise are good for you.

Or ... you can just wish things were so ... like Otis and Zetsu.

However, history has proved those methods notoriously unreliable and
ineffective.
Szczepan Bia³ek - 28 Mar 2008 20:00 GMT
>> I am here for two month and I am all time sceptical.
>> Now I know that:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Myopia often decreases in adults. That doesn't mean it has been
> "repaired".

But not always. We do not know why some students have repaired and why some
adults. Here I am sceptical to your statement.

> I saw it several times this week. Those people weren't trying to "repair"
> their myopia.

You could ask them about changes in their habits, diet and so on. Early you
have mentioned that in cured diabetes is repair even - 2.

>> but nobody know how ( or no one commonly accepted procedure) .
>
> You assume there is a "procedure."
Yes. Copernicus "procedure" was in using for 250 years before becames
"commonly accepted"

> I assume it is a natural phenomenon because at that same age, farsighted
> people get _worse_

This should be also invastigated..

>> It seams that we have not sufficient knowledge about eye muscles to do
>> the procedure.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The eyeball is cartilage. When it grows too long, you get myopia. It
> doesn't shrink just because you want it to.

In front part is fluid. Cornea is very thin. Easy to permament deformation.
The cartilage can shriks also. Even in solid body take place creeping.
Months or year can do the job.
S*
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 20:27 GMT
Subject:  World "Systems".

Yes. Copernicus "procedure" was in using for 250 years before becames
"commonly accepted"

Copernicus made and intelligent "guess", relative to the Ptolomic
concept that
was the ONLY accepted concept for the previous 1,500 years.
Initially
the predictive accuracy of both methods (earth-centered, versus sun-
centered)
was the same.

Only after Kepler did his work with Tycho Brahe's accurate data, was
the
Sun-centered concept accepted by only a FEW SCIENTISTS.

A scientific concept can be accurate -- but indeed not "accepted"
indeed.

Otis

> >> I am here for two month and I am all time sceptical.
> >> Now I know that:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Months or year can do the job.
> S*
Neil Brooks - 28 Mar 2008 20:33 GMT
On Mar 28, 12:27 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> A scientific concept can be accurate -- but indeed not "accepted"
> indeed.

And others can be accepted but wrong.

And others can be rejected AND wrong.

Notice you aren't talking about plus lenses anymore.

I wonder why.

Did you finally /read/ my now-famous questions and decide that you had
you had some esoteric form of Cranial-Alimentary Inversion Syndrome?
Mike Tyner - 28 Mar 2008 21:11 GMT
>> Where have you ever seen this happen? You are not enough skeptical.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> But not always. We do not know why some students have repaired and why
> some adults. Here I am sceptical to your statement.

That doesn't make sense. We do know what causes it.

> You could ask them about changes in their habits, diet and so on.

I'll let someone else do that.

> Early you have mentioned that in cured diabetes is repair even - 2.

The fact is that diabetes causes the -2 first. Then "repair" the blood sugar
and the -2 goes away. Nobody "cures" diabetes.

> Yes. Copernicus "procedure" was in using for 250 years before becames
> "commonly accepted"

You'll have to show me a procedure that works.

>> I assume it is a natural phenomenon because at that same age, farsighted
>> people get _worse_
>
> This should be also invastigated..

Why? We know why it happens.

> In front part is fluid. Cornea is very thin. Easy to permament
> deformation.

Easy to measure corneal deformation with keratometer. Doesn't happen.

> The cartilage can shriks also. Even in solid body take place creeping.

Easy to measure axial length with ultrasound. It doesn't shrink.

> Months or year can do the job.

You'll have to show me a procedure that works. I can't find one.

-MT

> S*
Szczepan Bia³ek - 29 Mar 2008 09:46 GMT
"Mike Tyner"

> Nobody "cures" diabetes.

John Rollo did.
Mike Tyner - 29 Mar 2008 12:50 GMT
>> Nobody "cures" diabetes.
>
> John Rollo did.

And his treatment is still useful - I used it myself. But it isn't a "cure."
The diabetes doesn't go away.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 30 Mar 2008 09:31 GMT
>>> Nobody "cures" diabetes.
>>
>> John Rollo did.
>
> And his treatment is still useful - I used it myself. But it isn't a
> "cure." The diabetes doesn't go away.

Excelent post. What is better when:
1. John Rollo diet or insulin,
2. John Schneider cure or chemiotherapy,
3. John Bershak method or glasses?

My answer is that all are usefull and that patients should be informed that
there are the two (or more) possibilities.
S*
Zetsu - 26 Mar 2008 20:25 GMT
>Have myopic people the flat lenses when see far
>without glasses?

Yes, Bates demonstrated that when the sight is normal the interior
focussing mechanism of the eye which observable by the retinoscope
also becomes instantaneously normal.
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 00:58 GMT
> Yes, Bates demonstrated that when the sight is normal the interior
> focussing mechanism of the eye which observable by the retinoscope
> also becomes instantaneously normal.

Fiction.

-MT
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 02:40 GMT
>> Yes, Bates demonstrated that when the sight is normal the interior
>> focussing mechanism of the eye which observable by the retinoscope
>> also becomes instantaneously normal.
>
> Fiction.

Well, obviously true, prima facie.

The fiction is that Bates had anything to do with making the eye
"instantaneously normal."

-MT
Mike Tyner - 26 Mar 2008 13:26 GMT
> The four recti muscles are controlled consciously. The two obliques and
> the internal are actvated automatical.

Please learn before you lecture.

The obliques and the recti are all the same sort of muscle - striated,
skeletal muscle we sometimes call "voluntary" because this type of muscle
makes voluntary movements.

The ciliary and iris muscles are smooth, autonomic muscles, sometimes called
"involuntary" because this type of muscle occurs in the gut, bladder and
blood vessels.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 26 Mar 2008 19:27 GMT
>> The four recti muscles are controlled consciously. The two obliques and
>> the internal are actvated automatical.
>
> Please learn before you lecture.

I have already said that I should ended: Am I right?
But this obliques rather stabilise and coordinate the movements of the both
eyes. The four recti seams to be main.
But what about my question. Have myopic people the flat lenses when see far
without glasses?
S*

> The obliques and the recti are all the same sort of muscle - striated,
> skeletal muscle we sometimes call "voluntary" because this type of muscle
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 00:56 GMT
> But this obliques rather stabilise and coordinate the movements of the
> both eyes. The four recti seams to be main.

Why would the obliques be any different from the recti?

Their most important function is elevation and depression.

Their secondary function is torsion (rotation about the z axis).

Their tertiary (third) function is abduction (divergence).

> But what about my question. Have myopic people the flat lenses when see
> far without glasses?

When accommodation is completely relaxed, the lens is flattest. This is true
whether you're nearsighted or not, wearing glasses or not.

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 27 Mar 2008 09:51 GMT
"Mike Tyner"

>> But what about my question. Have myopic people the flat lenses when see
>> far without glasses?
>
> When accommodation is completely relaxed, the lens is flattest. This is
> true whether you're nearsighted or not, wearing glasses or not.

And when the eye is in  'squinting'? As in, this:

http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/g/ga/gabetarian/555352_squinting_eye.jpg

S*
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 13:21 GMT
People squint at both ends of their focusing range, near and far.

The squinting muscles are independent from the focusing muscles, not locked
together like accommodation and convergence.

-MT

> "Mike Tyner"
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> S*
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 27 Mar 2008 16:37 GMT
Subject:  Question

MikeT> The squinting muscles are independent from the focusing
muscles, not locked
together like accommodation and convergence.

Otis> Where do you come up with the idea that accommodation-and-
convergence
are "locked" together?

Otis>  The experts (control sytems -- Dr. Hung) will not agree with
you on that point.

But that is their second-opinion.

Otis

> People squint at both ends of their focusing range, near and far.
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neil Brooks - 27 Mar 2008 16:45 GMT
On Mar 27, 8:37 am, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> Otis> Where do you come up with the idea that accommodation-and-
> convergence
> are "locked" together?

Wow.

> Otis>  The experts (control sytems -- Dr. Hung) will not agree with
> you on that point.
>
> But that is their second-opinion.

You REALLY need to stop trying to speak for others -- like Hung and
Wildsoet.

It REALLY makes you look silly.

Google: "near vision synkinesis"

This probably explains why you've induced double-vision in people, and
why you don't understand the implications of "near point esophoria" in
the /actual/ Oakley-Young study.

GOD, you're an idiot.....
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2008 20:08 GMT
Otis> Where do you come up with the idea that accommodation-and-
convergence are "locked" together?

Then you've never heard of the "near triad" and the role of the
edinger-westphal nucleus in the brainstem.

I'm sure Dr. Hung has heard of it.

-MT
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 28 Mar 2008 01:47 GMT
Yes, of course.

But you said "locked together".

Please define that EXACTLY.

Thanks,

> <otisbr...@embarqmail.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 28 Mar 2008 04:18 GMT
> Yes, of course.

> But you said "locked together".

> Please define that EXACTLY.

Anatomically, it means neurons stimulating all three functions can be traced
back to the same location in the brain stem.

Functionally, it means you can't cross your eyes and keep the ciliary body
relaxed, and you can't converge _or_ accommodate energetically without
constricting the pupil.

It's easy to stimulate accommodation by itself. It's not much harder to
stimulate convergence by itself. Measuring the results gives you the amount
of convergence due to accommodation and vice versa.

Those measurements often determine recommendations for prism, or bifocals,
or intentionally over-minusing.

-MT

-MT
Szczepan Bia³ek - 27 Mar 2008 20:21 GMT
> People squint at both ends of their focusing range, near and far.
>
> The squinting muscles are independent from the focusing muscles, not
> locked together like accommodation and convergence.
>
> -MT

For me it is important to know if in far squinting the lens is flat or the
same as at near. But I am only interesting in the result of measurements.
But it is not urgent.
S*
Zetsu - 27 Mar 2008 20:29 GMT
I'm not sure about it (ask Tyner because he's the expert) but I would
think that if you were to squint at the distance or at the nearpoint
it wouldn't have any effect whatsoever on the structure of the lens.
Squinting is a completely different, separate thing like Tyner said,
the muscles used for squinting aren't conjoined with the muscles used
for focussing.

All squinting does is reduce the field and in doing so produces a
pinhole effect and as a result the image which falls onto the retina
is more accurate. Or something like that?
Dr Judy - 22 Mar 2008 06:40 GMT
>  "Dr Judy"
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Are you sure?

Yes.  Ultrasound studies of accommodating eyes find that change of
focus occurs due to change in lens shape, not change in length of eye.

> I have the questions to the all ODs. Is this Dr Bates case a common case?
> Are similar cases at myopia?
> If they are, when it would be sensible to find "some way of reversing this
> condition and inducing my eyes to focus for the point I wished to see
> at the moment that I wished to see it."

There is way to have the eyes focused, wear your glasses.

> To do this Dr Bates recommend the relaxation and Bershak the divergence.
> Maybe that they are the same. Now it is very important to agree if now are
> people who have reversed (incorrect) pointing/focussing operation."

Pretty big "if".  Go onto the various Bates discussion forums, you
will find a lot of discussion but very few people reporting that they
have cured their myopia.

> There are the possibility that are such. Activating of the obligue muscles
> automatically activate the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER.

Oblique muscle action does not cause accommodation or pupil
constriction.  What anatomy book told you that?

Judy
Szczepan Bialek - 22 Mar 2008 09:56 GMT
On Mar 21, 2:21 pm, "Szczepan Bialek" <sz.bia...@wp.pl> wrote:
> "Dr Judy"
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>> Are you sure?

>Yes.  Ultrasound studies of accommodating eyes find that change of
focus occurs due to change in lens shape, not change in length of eye.

Ultrasound studies show the reactions. Elongation is time consumming.

>> To do this Dr Bates recommend the relaxation and Bershak the divergence.
> Maybe that they are the same. Now it is very important to agree if now are
> people who have reversed (incorrect) pointing/focussing operation."

>Pretty big "if".  Go onto the various Bates discussion forums, you
will find a lot of discussion but very few people reporting that they
have cured their myopia.

Conscious activating of the eye muscles is a very difficult art. And this my
"low salt syndrome". So the Method was impractical.

>> There are the possibility that are such. Activating of the obligue
>> muscles
> automatically activate the ciliary muscle AND MAKE THE PUPIL SMALLER.

>Oblique muscle action does not cause accommodation or pupil
constriction.  What anatomy book told you that?

I took a glance in "Grundbegriffe der Inneren Medizin und Neurologie" by
Alexander Sturm.
S*
Neil Brooks - 21 Mar 2008 04:49 GMT
> Yes, "L", but it is possible to identify Dr. Bates (good heart)
> second-opinion from your majority opinion -- where you
> insist that the fundamental eye is NOT A DYNAMIC
> SYSTEM -- BY OBJECTIVE SCIENTIFIC TESTING.
>
> Enjoy,

Enjoy?

You're a pathological liar and an absolute f.cking idiot.  Nobody
enjoys that.
Dr Judy - 21 Mar 2008 16:05 GMT
> We regret to announce something that should be put to the forefront of
> the reader's attention: Otis Brown is a fool who believes in a certain
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> PLUS LENSES ARE ESPECIALLY HARMFUL AND NO SUCCESS MAY BE ATTAINED
> UNDER THEIR INFLUENCE!

This is not a Bates forum, don't assume all readers are looking for
the "True Bates".

Otis is a follower of Ralpheson, a contemporary of Bates who had quite
different ideas.  Ralpheson advocated +1.00D lenses for everyone,
regardless of their problem.   Like Bates, he wrote books on the
subject and claimed to restore vision, cure cataracts and glaucoma,
relieve headaches etc etc etc with low plus.

Please explain why Bates' speculative writing should be more
believable than Ralpheson's.

Judy
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 21 Mar 2008 19:12 GMT
Judy>  ...regardless of their problem.   Like Bates, he wrote books on
the
subject and claimed to restore vision, cure cataracts and glaucoma,

Otis> Judy -- get you head in order.  Raphaelson NEVER CLAIMED TO CURE
CATARACTS.  Just be honest about this, OK?

Otis> Further I hate the word "cure".  I think it is misleading and
false.

Enjoy,

relieve headaches etc etc etc with low plus.

> > We regret to announce something that should be put to the forefront of
> > the reader's attention: Otis Brown is a fool who believes in a certain
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Judy
Dr Judy - 22 Mar 2008 06:32 GMT
On Mar 21, 2:12 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
> Judy>  ...regardless of their problem.   Like Bates, he wrote books on
> the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Otis> Further I hate the word "cure".  I think it is misleading and
> false.

Sorry, you are right.  He claimed to cure myopia and headaches,
caratact was merely prevented and retarded.
Do you think Ralpheson was misleading and false about the myopia and
headaches?

Here is what he has to say about low plus lenses:
(from http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Myopiafree2/message/1560 )

"VARIOUS USES FOR PLUS ONE GLASSES

1. For testing your own eyes and the eyes of your children.
2. To prevent, retard and cure myopia (near-sightedness) in
children.
3. To prevent development of astigmatism in children and adults.
4. To preserve the flexibility of the eyes for far and near
seeing.
5. To save nerve energy in nearer seeing.
6. For stretching the eyes (widthwise) to aid (blood and humor)
circulation.
7. To prevent and cure most headaches.
8. To prevent and aid in treatment of many eye and body ailments.
9. To aid middle aged and older folks in nearer seeing.
10. To prevent and retard the development of cataract and
glaucoma."
Jason Sperry - 22 Mar 2008 11:42 GMT
> On Mar 21, 2:12 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> 10. To prevent and retard the development of cataract and
> glaucoma."

that's a lie, the real cure is the BM (bowel movement, bates method,
Beat Me to it or Beat Me up already foos!)
Jason Sperry - 22 Mar 2008 11:45 GMT
> 6. For stretching the eyes (widthwise) to aid (blood and humor)
circulation.

Exactly. Myopic eyes are both bloody AND humorous!

Or maybe they're just plain old bloody humorous! LOL
Jason Sperry - 22 Mar 2008 11:47 GMT
btw my name is indigo becuz i'm an indigo child.

leik omzod!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111oneoneone
Jason Sperry - 22 Mar 2008 11:48 GMT
sorry lol i've been looking at the sun too much lately

o.o maybe u should try it
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 20 Mar 2008 04:21 GMT
On Mar 19, 12:56 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:

> Why? Because after he was successful the powers-that-be
> came in, removed all the Snellens, and that
> was the end of that.

are you implying a conspiracy?

do you sometimes feel the CIA is watching you (or MI-5)?
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 20 Mar 2008 04:59 GMT
No!

But the "easy" path was pretense, and removal of the
Snellens.

On Mar 19, 11:21 pm, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mar 19, 12:56 pm, otisbr...@embarqmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> do you sometimes feel the CIA is watching you (or MI-5)?

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