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Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2008

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binocular image size

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scooter - 28 Feb 2008 20:11 GMT
Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close...
I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they
are, or are like, attaching a binocular set onto your telescope i.e.
let you see the object with two eyes, keeping the single objective.)
So, over the years, I have been become more convinced  -  that when
using a binoviewer', and comparing it with the image I saw with one
eye in the telescope, that the binovewer image is larger, both from a
subjective, 'in our minds eye' sense, and to any attempt at reasonably
measure it. (that I've come up with).
Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-)  it now seems arguable that
the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just
your eyes (i.e. no binoviewer) provides an increased field of view of
an object, than does a single eye view.

Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard of? -
be glad to hear about it.

Here's an experiment, to try and make a case, look at something out of
arms reach, Say a book a few feet away. With both eyes open, get an
idea of its horizontal extent (or angle across you view) by extending
your arms and using a finger to define the edges of the object. There
is a parallax and dual finger images to contend with in trying to do
it, but I think it is possible to fairly confidently represent the
width of the object by pointing with respective arms and fingers at
its edges. Resist the urge to, in a way, deconstruct your initial full
mental picture in trying to line up your fingers to the edges. Let the
object image dominate as you line up.

Now close one eye, for me what happens, is my fingers, one
particularly, now points quite a way beyond an edge. And the object
does look more remote and smaller. Or if I then, with one eye still
closed, align my fingers so that the one eye view represents the
angular size of the object, then open both eyes the object almost
transforms, extending beyond the bounds of my fingers.

Of coure there's the matter of arm and eye position parallax - but I
will initially try and diffuse that argument by saying, that since the
two eye images are an abstract of our brain, ie our brain has joined
two monocular views, and because therefore it is a menatlly abstracted
image (not raw visual data), despite also being an immediate, sensed
and conscious image, it can have an mental occupancy, or some such ...
a size perhaps, and therefore an apparent field of view, that truly is
larger than the single eye view.

A single eye telescopic view, seems to conform well to a particular
eyepieces stated field of view, say 50 - 80 degrees. But if you view
the same field (with a bino') with two of the same eyepieces
(binoculars will do) the apov grows.
It appears to me that this is a result of the image being 'sensed' or
mentally positioned with respect to our eyes and mind differently in
the two cases. With single eye the image appears to me as residing
behind that single eye and subtends whatever angle we may constrain it
to. With two eyes the image, with the same constraint (of viewed image
angle) on both eyes, provides an image which is bounded on both sides
by half the angle (i.e. outside bound for left eye is 25 degrees to
the left (in the case of 50 degree apfov and the right similarly) .

But now, the (mentally abstracted) binocular image seems to occupy a
greater extent of mental space, it fills my visual field, from one
side across to the other, and with the same image, as one eye. The
same image then fills, or is represented by a mental image which has
an extent bounded by the (half) angle to the outside of each eye.
Rather than with a single eye from just beyond my centre line to the
same outside bound. Since the mental image is formed at, or on, the
same plane as the single eye image, and the (half) angle from the
centre of our mental image, to the either outside bound, is greater,
so the binocular image now subtends a greater angle, the binocular
image is larger.

This is exactly the effect with a binoviewer, as if the image and
object have moved closer, become larger, it's as if I have been able
to sit and view from further into the bounded area. With a bino' the
difference is as if you are looking out a pipe one minute with one eye
to having your head half out a porthole with two eyes the next. So two
eyes make for bigger images.

Interestingly I can't see this effect on the vertical plane. Which
infers I'm stretching everything horizontally when I look with two
eyes, maybe I do.?? lol,.

Any thoughts/clarifications/especially rational dismissals would be
gratefully accepted. ;-)

Cheers,
S.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 28 Feb 2008 21:15 GMT
Dear S.,

S> Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard
of? -
be glad to hear about it.

Otis> It is generally understood that the accuracy of your vision is
better
with both eyes open.

Otis> The brain over-lays both images, and enhances what you actuallyl
see.
Yes, your preceived vision is better with both eyes open.

Just my second-opinion.

> Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close...
> I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they
[quoted text clipped - 81 lines]
> Cheers,
> S.
A.G.McDowell - 29 Feb 2008 06:19 GMT
In article <6cb18230-1570-4f10-8643-12d0e5b14bf3@62g2000hsn.googlegroups
.com>, scooter <codecutter@gmail.com> writes
>Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close...
>I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard of? -
>be glad to hear about it.

Not sure about binocular vs telescope, although I agree that there is at
least a subjective effect. A possibly related effect, between different
types of binoculars, seems to have a consensus explanation.

Most binoculars have the objectives either further apart than the
viewer's eyes (the traditional "porro" prism design) or in line with the
viewer's eyes (there are at least two competing designs here). It is
pretty much agreed that the "in line" binoculars appear to give a larger
image than "porro" binoculars of the same magnification, even though
they show no more detail (and in fact it is much easier to make "porro"
designs, so at the same price point you might hope that they would be
optically better). This is thought to be because the brain judges the
distance to the object being viewed as greater with the "in-line"
binoculars, using stereo vision, and attempts to compensate. You can see
a lot of info on binoculars at e.g. www.birdforum.net. The usual rule of
thumb is that "in line" binoculars at 7x appear to give roughly the same
size of image as porro binoculars at 8x.

Come to think of it, when I used a telescope - well, a birdwatching
scope - I always had the impression that the image was positioned
somewhere inside the scope, and I was never a fan of scopes but loved
binoculars. I had the "small telescope image" impression to an unusual
degree. Perhaps the size difference is linked to the brain's guess of
the distance to the object being viewed in this case too.
Signature

A.G.McDowell

scooter - 29 Feb 2008 12:31 GMT
On Feb 29, 7:19 pm, "A.G.McDowell" <mcdowe...@mcdowella.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article <6cb18230-1570-4f10-8643-12d0e5b14...@62g2000hsn.googlegroups
> .com>, scooter <codecut...@gmail.com> writes
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Might just mention to Otis first, the improvement in vision with two
eyes as compared with one is, or has been measured to be, the square
root of two times the fidelity achievable with one. (not sure of the
derivation for that - whether one could derive it mathmatically given
our visual system, or whether the experimental numbers were so close
to root 2 that they just use the number.) Anyhow I wanted to avoid
that aspect of the binocular vs one eye consideration, but of course
the two may be related i.e, if two eyes provides a larger image to
puruse in the mind, then that could provide some detail as to why -
other than the obvious, although non specific sense, that two eyes
must be/are better than one.

A.G McDowell, interesting about the binoculars and width of the
objectives making for a difference in image size. Almost think it
should work the other way. Greater the seperation the greater the
percieved 3d effect and therefore the closer the image would be
mentally interpreted to be and therefore the larger the percived
image. But it's the first i've heard of that so I'll check out the
bird/binocular link, thank you.
I'm on a slow track to getting an 3-4" apo doublet, and a schmidt
erecting prism hooked up to my binoviewer (including a field
flattening doublet (actually used to extend the focal point out to
allow the binoviewers (with their aditional light path) to reach
focus) but the effect of the focal extension and flattening is very
nice indeed, everything looks a bit like a dish without it now.
(especially the newtonian).
Anyhow I was wondering then if, in the absence of any actual
seperation of the input to the eyes (ie using a bino with telescope as
opposed to binoculars) whether there will be and observable cost, in
some sense, when viewing up close objects which otherwise would
include a measure of real binocular information. I understand this
effect is not an issue with objects at large distance.

S.
Mike Ruskai - 29 Feb 2008 18:39 GMT
>Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close...
>I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>subjective, 'in our minds eye' sense, and to any attempt at reasonably
>measure it. (that I've come up with).

The binoviewer might increase magnification itself, but it will
definitely increase magnification if it has a built-in or attached
Barlow lens to increase the telescope's back focus (which is usually
necessary for Newtonians and refractors, but not SCT's).

>Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-)  it now seems arguable that
>the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just
>your eyes (i.e. no binoviewer) provides an increased field of view of
>an object, than does a single eye view.

Well, no.  Using two eyes increases your field of view, because they
have a horizontal separation, so the combined FOV is greater than that
of either one.

Through a binoviewer, however, there's no difference in the FOV,
because both eyes are receiving the same light from a single
objective.  And since FOV goes down as magnification goes up, you
actually have a smaller FOV through your binoviewer than just through
the eyepiece in question, if you're correct about it magnifying (which
you probably are).

One way to find an objective difference between the output of an EP
through the binoviewer and its output directly in the focuser (or
diagonal) is to take a picture of the same field with the camera in
fixed position.  Not necessarily easy, if you don't have the right
equipment, but it's doable.
Signature

- Mike

Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.

scooter - 01 Mar 2008 08:38 GMT
On Mar 1, 7:39 am, Mike Ruskai <BUTthann...@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM>
wrote:

> >Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close...
> >I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Barlow lens to increase the telescope's back focus (which is usually
> necessary for Newtonians and refractors, but not SCT's).

Hi Mike,
I should have been more precise - the one eye view, that I'm comparing
the binocular view with, is using one eye through the binoviewer. So
the increase in mag from the focal extender isn't what makes the
effect.

> >Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-)  it now seems arguable that
> >the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> have a horizontal separation, so the combined FOV is greater than that
> of either one.

Yes, well of course I agree the FOV is greater with two eyes. It is
that binocular image that we say we 'see' which is in fact (or can
also) be said to be neural creation, it has a greater degree of
abstraction in its generation (than a single eye view). And it is that
extra process then that happens to have us percieve the binocular
image as providing for a larger object. Or so I'm arguing.
If you think of a situation where a single eye observes an object and
we could readilly say that object subtends a particular angle
(relative to the pupil of that eye). In what sense is that angle
fairly measured when two eyes are observing that same object at the
same distance. Are we simply saying the angle subtended is measured
from the centre point between the eyes? ...I suggest that angle is
increased, however we may imagine it measured, due to the mental
binocular image being appearing closer than the single eyes version.

> Through a binoviewer, however, there's no difference in the FOV,
> because both eyes are receiving the same light from a single
> objective.  And since FOV goes down as magnification goes up, you
> actually have a smaller FOV through your binoviewer than just through
> the eyepiece in question, if you're correct about it magnifying (which
> you probably are).

Yip sure. My point is that the binoviewed image using two EP's with
the same afov (and fov) provides an increased magnification over the
same fov, (using the same but single eyepiece) - the bino image has
greater afov. Do you see where I am going? I might not be correct of
course but just trying to make an argument in favour of my perception.

Thanks for your thoughts Mike.
Scott.

> One way to find an objective difference between the output of an EP
> through the binoviewer and its output directly in the focuser (or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.

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