Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2008
binocular image size
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scooter - 28 Feb 2008 20:11 GMT Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close... I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they are, or are like, attaching a binocular set onto your telescope i.e. let you see the object with two eyes, keeping the single objective.) So, over the years, I have been become more convinced - that when using a binoviewer', and comparing it with the image I saw with one eye in the telescope, that the binovewer image is larger, both from a subjective, 'in our minds eye' sense, and to any attempt at reasonably measure it. (that I've come up with). Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-) it now seems arguable that the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just your eyes (i.e. no binoviewer) provides an increased field of view of an object, than does a single eye view.
Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard of? - be glad to hear about it.
Here's an experiment, to try and make a case, look at something out of arms reach, Say a book a few feet away. With both eyes open, get an idea of its horizontal extent (or angle across you view) by extending your arms and using a finger to define the edges of the object. There is a parallax and dual finger images to contend with in trying to do it, but I think it is possible to fairly confidently represent the width of the object by pointing with respective arms and fingers at its edges. Resist the urge to, in a way, deconstruct your initial full mental picture in trying to line up your fingers to the edges. Let the object image dominate as you line up.
Now close one eye, for me what happens, is my fingers, one particularly, now points quite a way beyond an edge. And the object does look more remote and smaller. Or if I then, with one eye still closed, align my fingers so that the one eye view represents the angular size of the object, then open both eyes the object almost transforms, extending beyond the bounds of my fingers.
Of coure there's the matter of arm and eye position parallax - but I will initially try and diffuse that argument by saying, that since the two eye images are an abstract of our brain, ie our brain has joined two monocular views, and because therefore it is a menatlly abstracted image (not raw visual data), despite also being an immediate, sensed and conscious image, it can have an mental occupancy, or some such ... a size perhaps, and therefore an apparent field of view, that truly is larger than the single eye view.
A single eye telescopic view, seems to conform well to a particular eyepieces stated field of view, say 50 - 80 degrees. But if you view the same field (with a bino') with two of the same eyepieces (binoculars will do) the apov grows. It appears to me that this is a result of the image being 'sensed' or mentally positioned with respect to our eyes and mind differently in the two cases. With single eye the image appears to me as residing behind that single eye and subtends whatever angle we may constrain it to. With two eyes the image, with the same constraint (of viewed image angle) on both eyes, provides an image which is bounded on both sides by half the angle (i.e. outside bound for left eye is 25 degrees to the left (in the case of 50 degree apfov and the right similarly) .
But now, the (mentally abstracted) binocular image seems to occupy a greater extent of mental space, it fills my visual field, from one side across to the other, and with the same image, as one eye. The same image then fills, or is represented by a mental image which has an extent bounded by the (half) angle to the outside of each eye. Rather than with a single eye from just beyond my centre line to the same outside bound. Since the mental image is formed at, or on, the same plane as the single eye image, and the (half) angle from the centre of our mental image, to the either outside bound, is greater, so the binocular image now subtends a greater angle, the binocular image is larger.
This is exactly the effect with a binoviewer, as if the image and object have moved closer, become larger, it's as if I have been able to sit and view from further into the bounded area. With a bino' the difference is as if you are looking out a pipe one minute with one eye to having your head half out a porthole with two eyes the next. So two eyes make for bigger images.
Interestingly I can't see this effect on the vertical plane. Which infers I'm stretching everything horizontally when I look with two eyes, maybe I do.?? lol,.
Any thoughts/clarifications/especially rational dismissals would be gratefully accepted. ;-)
Cheers, S.
otisbrown@embarqmail.com - 28 Feb 2008 21:15 GMT Dear S.,
S> Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard of? - be glad to hear about it.
Otis> It is generally understood that the accuracy of your vision is better with both eyes open.
Otis> The brain over-lays both images, and enhances what you actuallyl see. Yes, your preceived vision is better with both eyes open.
Just my second-opinion.
> Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close... > I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > Cheers, > S. A.G.McDowell - 29 Feb 2008 06:19 GMT In article <6cb18230-1570-4f10-8643-12d0e5b14bf3@62g2000hsn.googlegroups .com>, scooter <codecutter@gmail.com> writes
>Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close... >I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Now is that something anyone has any thoughts about or has heard of? - >be glad to hear about it. Not sure about binocular vs telescope, although I agree that there is at least a subjective effect. A possibly related effect, between different types of binoculars, seems to have a consensus explanation.
Most binoculars have the objectives either further apart than the viewer's eyes (the traditional "porro" prism design) or in line with the viewer's eyes (there are at least two competing designs here). It is pretty much agreed that the "in line" binoculars appear to give a larger image than "porro" binoculars of the same magnification, even though they show no more detail (and in fact it is much easier to make "porro" designs, so at the same price point you might hope that they would be optically better). This is thought to be because the brain judges the distance to the object being viewed as greater with the "in-line" binoculars, using stereo vision, and attempts to compensate. You can see a lot of info on binoculars at e.g. www.birdforum.net. The usual rule of thumb is that "in line" binoculars at 7x appear to give roughly the same size of image as porro binoculars at 8x.
Come to think of it, when I used a telescope - well, a birdwatching scope - I always had the impression that the image was positioned somewhere inside the scope, and I was never a fan of scopes but loved binoculars. I had the "small telescope image" impression to an unusual degree. Perhaps the size difference is linked to the brain's guess of the distance to the object being viewed in this case too.
 Signature A.G.McDowell
scooter - 29 Feb 2008 12:31 GMT On Feb 29, 7:19 pm, "A.G.McDowell" <mcdowe...@mcdowella.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6cb18230-1570-4f10-8643-12d0e5b14...@62g2000hsn.googlegroups > .com>, scooter <codecut...@gmail.com> writes [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Might just mention to Otis first, the improvement in vision with two eyes as compared with one is, or has been measured to be, the square root of two times the fidelity achievable with one. (not sure of the derivation for that - whether one could derive it mathmatically given our visual system, or whether the experimental numbers were so close to root 2 that they just use the number.) Anyhow I wanted to avoid that aspect of the binocular vs one eye consideration, but of course the two may be related i.e, if two eyes provides a larger image to puruse in the mind, then that could provide some detail as to why - other than the obvious, although non specific sense, that two eyes must be/are better than one.
A.G McDowell, interesting about the binoculars and width of the objectives making for a difference in image size. Almost think it should work the other way. Greater the seperation the greater the percieved 3d effect and therefore the closer the image would be mentally interpreted to be and therefore the larger the percived image. But it's the first i've heard of that so I'll check out the bird/binocular link, thank you. I'm on a slow track to getting an 3-4" apo doublet, and a schmidt erecting prism hooked up to my binoviewer (including a field flattening doublet (actually used to extend the focal point out to allow the binoviewers (with their aditional light path) to reach focus) but the effect of the focal extension and flattening is very nice indeed, everything looks a bit like a dish without it now. (especially the newtonian). Anyhow I was wondering then if, in the absence of any actual seperation of the input to the eyes (ie using a bino with telescope as opposed to binoculars) whether there will be and observable cost, in some sense, when viewing up close objects which otherwise would include a measure of real binocular information. I understand this effect is not an issue with objects at large distance.
S.
Mike Ruskai - 29 Feb 2008 18:39 GMT >Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close... >I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >subjective, 'in our minds eye' sense, and to any attempt at reasonably >measure it. (that I've come up with). The binoviewer might increase magnification itself, but it will definitely increase magnification if it has a built-in or attached Barlow lens to increase the telescope's back focus (which is usually necessary for Newtonians and refractors, but not SCT's).
>Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-) it now seems arguable that >the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just >your eyes (i.e. no binoviewer) provides an increased field of view of >an object, than does a single eye view. Well, no. Using two eyes increases your field of view, because they have a horizontal separation, so the combined FOV is greater than that of either one.
Through a binoviewer, however, there's no difference in the FOV, because both eyes are receiving the same light from a single objective. And since FOV goes down as magnification goes up, you actually have a smaller FOV through your binoviewer than just through the eyepiece in question, if you're correct about it magnifying (which you probably are).
One way to find an objective difference between the output of an EP through the binoviewer and its output directly in the focuser (or diagonal) is to take a picture of the same field with the camera in fixed position. Not necessarily easy, if you don't have the right equipment, but it's doable.
 Signature - Mike
Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.
scooter - 01 Mar 2008 08:38 GMT On Mar 1, 7:39 am, Mike Ruskai <BUTthann...@DONTearthlinkLIKE.netSPAM> wrote:
> >Hey folks, Not sure if this is the right group, but must be close... > >I'm an amateur telescope guy, who years ago bought a binoviewer, (they [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Barlow lens to increase the telescope's back focus (which is usually > necessary for Newtonians and refractors, but not SCT's). Hi Mike, I should have been more precise - the one eye view, that I'm comparing the binocular view with, is using one eye through the binoviewer. So the increase in mag from the focal extender isn't what makes the effect.
> >Further, well if you were to ask me, ;-) it now seems arguable that > >the idea can be more general - a binocular image, that is, using just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have a horizontal separation, so the combined FOV is greater than that > of either one. Yes, well of course I agree the FOV is greater with two eyes. It is that binocular image that we say we 'see' which is in fact (or can also) be said to be neural creation, it has a greater degree of abstraction in its generation (than a single eye view). And it is that extra process then that happens to have us percieve the binocular image as providing for a larger object. Or so I'm arguing. If you think of a situation where a single eye observes an object and we could readilly say that object subtends a particular angle (relative to the pupil of that eye). In what sense is that angle fairly measured when two eyes are observing that same object at the same distance. Are we simply saying the angle subtended is measured from the centre point between the eyes? ...I suggest that angle is increased, however we may imagine it measured, due to the mental binocular image being appearing closer than the single eyes version.
> Through a binoviewer, however, there's no difference in the FOV, > because both eyes are receiving the same light from a single > objective. And since FOV goes down as magnification goes up, you > actually have a smaller FOV through your binoviewer than just through > the eyepiece in question, if you're correct about it magnifying (which > you probably are). Yip sure. My point is that the binoviewed image using two EP's with the same afov (and fov) provides an increased magnification over the same fov, (using the same but single eyepiece) - the bino image has greater afov. Do you see where I am going? I might not be correct of course but just trying to make an argument in favour of my perception.
Thanks for your thoughts Mike. Scott.
> One way to find an objective difference between the output of an EP > through the binoviewer and its output directly in the focuser (or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.
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