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Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2008

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Question about Glass, Plastic, Trivex, polycarbonate lens and safety

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C - 08 Jan 2008 03:02 GMT
I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are around
+3 with no astigmatisms.  My current glasses are polycarbonate lens.  Before
them, I had glass.  I noticed a drop in "brightness" with the polycarbonate
lens.  Would Plastic or Trivex make the lens brighter?  How "unsafe" is
glass?  My glass lens up until this time were bullet proof i.e. they took a
lot of bumps.  And even if a lens was to shatter, would the eyelid not close
in time to protect the eye?  I have to think that my eyes behind a glass
lens are infinitely more protected than the guy that doesn't wear glasses of
any kind......

Comments?

Chris
Mark A - 08 Jan 2008 05:21 GMT
>I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are
>around +3 with no astigmatisms.  My current glasses are polycarbonate lens.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Chris

Forget about glass. It is too heavy.

Trivex would be great if you don't mind slightly thicker glasses. 1.60
Plastic would be about the same thickness as polycarb, but much better
optical qualities. Polycarb does have tendency to scratch easily or slight
fog if inappropriate chemicals are applied.

Getting a high quality (durable) AR coating will make your vision brighter
(it lets more light pass through the lens by reducing reflections).

Anytime you avoid polycarb, your vision will improve.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 08 Jan 2008 05:38 GMT
> I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are around
> +3 with no astigmatisms.  My current glasses are polycarbonate lens.  Before
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Chris

Glass certainly does seem to have an excellent optical quality, and
it's durable to scratching.  As I recall, there is such a thing as
safety glass lenses.  They are made a little thicker than normal, and
then are tempered with either a heat (baking) or chemical treatment.
They pass all OSHA standards just like safety polycarb and plastic,
although they would be quite a bit heavier for sure.  See your eyedoc.
Sibir - 08 Jan 2008 07:43 GMT
Glass is very unsafe in any form. It can shatter with less force than it
takes to bruise the skin. All glass lenses are tempered in the US. 99% of
them are chemically tempered which means that they are subjected to a hot
bath in potassium salt to replace the sodium atoms in the lens to pull the
surface tighter and set up tension to hopefully deflect blows. A few are
still heat treated where the lens is heated to nearly the melting point and
then suddenly cooled to room temp by compressed air setting up a compression
pattern almost as good as chemical treating. They still fail far quicker
than any of the other options with razor sharp tiny fragments. Anyone who
has hit an animal bigger than a deer with a car knows the needle like
qualities of  glass shards projected back from american windshields;
eyeglasses will respond to impact in a particularly worse fassion since
there is no laminate later,  even if they are called "safety."  "Z87" Safety
glass lenses differ from regular glass lenses ONLY in being 1 mm thicker and
have had a heavier test ball dropped onto them with an engraving(weakening
the tested surface) stating the lab's initials and whether or not they are
photochromic.

CR-39 plastic or Trivex would brighten up the issue quite a bit. The
differences between optics requires equipment to distinguish, the human eye
sees through all three materials the same since the differences are below
the threshold we can detect without a preconcieved mindset. All lenses
should have AR coatings to make things even brighter and crisper. There are
a few occupations that should avoid the improved clarity of AR, however:
miners, gravel pit workers, drywall installers, etc., your glasses will get
trashed quickly regardless so don't waste the money. Maybe put it on a pair
you don't wear to work.

Eyes behind glass lenses are somewhat better protected than exposed eyes,
but are still poorly protected. A high speed impact on a glass lens would
produce shards traveling faster than the eyelids can close. The system was
not designed to protect against such things.

Carl

>I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are
>around +3 with no astigmatisms.  My current glasses are polycarbonate lens.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Chris
Mike Ruskai - 08 Jan 2008 17:56 GMT
>Glass is very unsafe in any form. It can shatter with less force than it
>takes to bruise the skin. All glass lenses are tempered in the US. 99% of
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>the tested surface) stating the lab's initials and whether or not they are
>photochromic.

All this is more than a bit alarmist.  I had glass lenses for over 10
years, starting at age 10.  They were heavier, and I'm sure they
wouldn't stand up the same abuse as something like polycarb, but they
were not nearly as fragile as you imply.  

And there are no needle like shards of glass projected back from
windshields.  I had an aluminum boat driveshaft crash through mine a
few years back at 75mph.  All of the glass that broke free was
pebbled.

The only real argument against glass lenses is weight.  Any face plant
that would break them is going to cause more serious injuries first,
as I can attest from experience (none of mine ever broke).
Signature

- Mike

Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.

Mark A - 08 Jan 2008 21:00 GMT
> And there are no needle like shards of glass projected back from
> windshields.  I had an aluminum boat driveshaft crash through mine a
> few years back at 75mph.  All of the glass that broke free was
> pebbled.

Windshields are made completely differently. They have a lamination in the
middle of two sheets of glass that holds it all together to reduce serious
injury when it breaks.

The reasons why you want glass lenses are not sufficient. Just avoid
polycarb and you will be happy with the lenses.
The Real Bev - 08 Jan 2008 23:07 GMT
>> And there are no needle like shards of glass projected back from
>> windshields.  I had an aluminum boat driveshaft crash through mine a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> The reasons why you want glass lenses are not sufficient.

Their photochromic ability was WAYYYY better than what I got with
plastic a few years back.  The plastic photochromes were essentially
worthless while the glass ones worked just fine.

> Just avoid polycarb and you will be happy with the lenses.

BUT the thin polycarb that non-prescription lenses are made of works
quite nicely -- my favorite sunglasses (the ones I wear with my
contacts) are cheap ($5-$7 on sale) polarized ones from Big 5 (discount
sporting goods store) and are light and cover a lot of area, making them
good for wind-in-the-face occasions.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
================================================================
"Is there any way I can help without actually getting involved?"
                                             -- Jennifer, WKRP

Mike Tyner - 08 Jan 2008 23:59 GMT
> BUT the thin polycarb that non-prescription lenses are made of works quite
> nicely -- my favorite sunglasses (the ones I wear with my contacts) are
> cheap ($5-$7 on sale) polarized ones from Big 5 (discount sporting goods
> store) and are light and cover a lot of area, making them good for
> wind-in-the-face occasions.

Nah, nobody can make good lenses with polycarb. Terrible stuff. A pox on all
polycarb and especially the big-box stores that foist them on the
unsuspecting public. Avoid all polycarb if you want to see.

And why?

Oh, it's because of their abbe number. On every pair of polycarb, every
image, every contrasting border is riddled with rainbows. Awful, just awful.
You can't get good glasses from polycarb. They're all trash.

No?

</sarcasm>

-MT
Robert Redelmeier - 09 Jan 2008 01:02 GMT
Mike Tyner <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote in part:
> Oh, it's because of their abbe number. On every pair of polycarb, every
> image, every contrasting border is riddled with rainbows. Awful, just
> awful.  You can't get good glasses from polycarb. They're all trash.

Agreed PC has a poor Abbe, but that is an increasing problem
at higher powers and not for plano like Bev's sunglasses.

> No?  > </sarcasm>

Did I miss something?

-- Robert
Mike Tyner - 09 Jan 2008 05:59 GMT
> Agreed PC has a poor Abbe, but that is an increasing problem
> at higher powers and not for plano like Bev's sunglasses.

But I read it on the internet!

Sorry to descend into sarcasm but I just think polycarbonate gets blamed too
frequently for problems it doesn't cause.

Road signs blurry? Must be polycarbonate.

Walls bending? Must be polycarbonate.

Gives you a headache? Must be the poly.

Fact is, the only problem specific to polycarb is color fringes, which
cannot exist or cause blur at the optical center.

-MT
William Stacy, O.D. - 09 Jan 2008 06:35 GMT
> Fact is, the only problem specific to polycarb is color fringes, which
> cannot exist or cause blur at the optical center.

And also don't exist in plano polys or near plano ones, which make great
sunglasses.  I like the big poly wrap arounds with the Rx inserts...
best of both worlds.

I use polys pretty routinely in kids, esp. in situations where insurance
pays for them but not for Trivex. Kids don't seem to mind the chroma.

re the glass +3 lenses, if his nose can handle the weight, they're
pretty safe.

In wwII, the soldiers who wore glasses often had drilled glass lenses,
1.0 mm ct, no tempering.  That's why they are called glasses, after all...

one last item from an old o.d.'s memory: the optically best glasses I
ever wore were glass, with cruxite A tint in the glass and
anti-reflection coating.  Far less reflection than any of today's
lenses, just about zero ghosting, and almost unscratchable.

My nose was stronger then...

w.stacy, o.d.
Anon E. Muss - 10 Jan 2008 05:24 GMT
[snip]

>one last item from an old o.d.'s memory: the optically best glasses I
>ever wore were glass, with cruxite A tint in the glass and
>anti-reflection coating.  Far less reflection than any of today's
>lenses, just about zero ghosting, and almost unscratchable.

[snip]

I hear that all the time -- not the cruxite A tint -- but from lab
reps that wear glass glasses.  I will have to get a pair of glass
spectacle lenses one of these days.
Robert Redelmeier - 09 Jan 2008 13:35 GMT
Mike Tyner <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote in part:
> Sorry to descend into sarcasm but I just think polycarbonate
> gets blamed too frequently for problems it doesn't cause.

Agreed.  Thanks for the explanation.

> Fact is, the only problem specific to polycarb is color
> fringes, which cannot exist or cause blur at the optical center.

I may be misinterpreting you, but chromatic abberation most
certainly can exist on the principal optic axis.  Abbe number [wiki]
is a measure of how different the material's refractive index is
at different visible wavelengths (colors).  How far apart the focal
points are for different colors, hence how big the chroma haloes.

Off axis is is worse (prism rainbows), and at higher powers
linearly worse: more defraction means more dispersion.

In photographic lenses, negative and positive elements with
different RIs and Abbes are combined to cancel out as much
of the chromatic abberation as practical.

What I don't know is how the human eye system is wrt chromatic
abberation (RI & Abbe of lens and vitrious humor).  I suspect it
is not fully compensated and does corrections by cone placement.

-- Robert
Mike Tyner - 09 Jan 2008 14:39 GMT
> I may be misinterpreting you, but chromatic abberation most
> certainly can exist on the principal optic axis.  Abbe number [wiki]
> is a measure of how different the material's refractive index is
> at different visible wavelengths (colors).  How far apart the focal
> points are for different colors, hence how big the chroma haloes.

So how far apart are red and blue focal points if they pass perpendicularly
through the center of a lens?

> Off axis is is worse (prism rainbows), and at higher powers
> linearly worse: more defraction means more dispersion.

I don't know what "defraction" is. Bending light at the interface between
two media is "refraction" and zero refraction means zero dispersion.

Light doesn't bend when it strikes the center perpendicularly, so it can't
bend differently for one color compared to another. Technically the two
colors might not arrive at the fovea at the same _time_, but they do both
land in the same _place_.

> What I don't know is how the human eye system is wrt chromatic
> abberation (RI & Abbe of lens and vitrious humor).  I suspect it
> is not fully compensated and does corrections by cone placement.

If you ignore the concept of receptive fields, you might imagine something
like that. There may well be some neurological compensation, with blue cones
growing fields that are displaced a little more peripherally and red cone
fields a little more central but I've never seen that in print. I don't
think we can map receptive fields that precisely.

More realistically, you could say that the concentration of cones is highest
near the center and tapers off in the periphery. You could also say that
overall resolution diminishes toward the periphery.

There are geometric features that reduce chromatic abberration, namely
aspheric optics and a hemispherical projection surface.

-MT
Robert Redelmeier - 09 Jan 2008 15:39 GMT
Mike Tyner <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote in part:
> So how far apart are red and blue focal points if they pass
> perpendicularly through the center of a lens?

Obviously no distance at all.  However, neglegible amounts of
light actually pass through the center of a lens.  Technically
zero.  Most passes through the periphery where refraction is
required.  Whence un[der]corrected vision worsening in low light.

> I don't know what "defraction" is. Bending light at the
> interface between two media is "refraction"

Correct.  I misspoke -- too much work with the grates!

> There may well be some neurological compensation, with
> blue cones growing fields that are displaced a little more
> peripherally and red cone fields a little more central but
> I've never seen that in print. I don't think we can map
> receptive fields that precisely.

That is what I'm suggesting, or that the phtosensitive
portions of the cones are biased to compensate for ab.

> More realistically, you could say that the concentration
> of cones is highest near the center and tapers off in
> the periphery. You could also say that overall resolution
> diminishes toward the periphery.

This is well known and has little bearing on ab.

> There are geometric features that reduce chromatic abberration,
> namely aspheric optics and a hemispherical projection surface.

Certainly these features exist but I'm not sure they have a
positive effect on ab:  to the extent it matters (the fovea
is small and hence relatively flat), hemispherical focus
planes require more refraction than equivalent flat-plane.
Aspheric lenses still have chrom.ab and are more used to
fight spherical abberation and intensity fall-off or for
improved off-center use in glasses.

-- Robert
Robert Martellaro - 09 Jan 2008 23:14 GMT
>> There are geometric features that reduce chromatic abberration,
>> namely aspheric optics and a hemispherical projection surface.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>-- Robert

Right. Spherical aberration, due to the small pupil diameter, is not an issue
unless the lens power is very high, and then it's reduced by using aspheric
designs. Aspheric lenses are also used to correct for off-axis error when
flatter (than best form) base curves are utilized. Flatter curves reduce
magnification and minification, with a cosmetic and weight benefit.

Transverse chromatic aberration is unaffected by the use of aspherics, and can
only be reduced by using less dispersive lens materials that have a higher Abbe
number, and by optimal positioning of the lenses in front of the eyes.

Robert Martellaro
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Optician/Owner
Roberts Optical
Wauwatosa Wi.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself."
- Richard Feynman
Mike Ruskai - 09 Jan 2008 20:07 GMT
>Fact is, the only problem specific to polycarb is color fringes, which
>cannot exist or cause blur at the optical center.

This is true for the lenses themselves, but not the wearer.  You get
color fringes in the center of your vision if you move your eyes
instead of your head.
Signature

- Mike

Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.

Mike Ruskai - 09 Jan 2008 20:05 GMT
>> And there are no needle like shards of glass projected back from
>> windshields.  I had an aluminum boat driveshaft crash through mine a
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>The reasons why you want glass lenses are not sufficient. Just avoid
>polycarb and you will be happy with the lenses.

1)  I wasn't comparing glass lenses to car windshields.  The person I
was responding to did, and in doing so made an incorrect claim about
windshields.  I was correcting that.

2)  I don't want glass lenses.  I simply said that there's no
legitimate safety argument against them, and that weight is the main
reason you'd want to avoid them.
Signature

- Mike

Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.

The Real Bev - 08 Jan 2008 23:03 GMT
> <cseutter@mtaonline.net> dribble thusly:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> that would break them is going to cause more serious injuries first,
> as I can attest from experience (none of mine ever broke).

When I face-planted I broke the frame above the right lens (which I
repaired with super glue), but the lenses were fine.  I used glass
glasses (photochromic) as motorcycle glasses for at least 15 years with
no mishaps.  The bee that bounced off a lens and then into my helmet,
giving me a nasty sting in the process, probably shouldn't count anyway;
 bees are pretty soft.

They really WERE heavy, though -- and those were the days when glasses
were BIG.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
================================================================
"Is there any way I can help without actually getting involved?"
                                             -- Jennifer, WKRP

Sibir - 13 Jan 2008 10:24 GMT
>>Glass is very unsafe in any form. It can shatter with less force than it
>>takes to bruise the skin. All glass lenses are tempered in the US. 99% of
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> wouldn't stand up the same abuse as something like polycarb, but they
> were not nearly as fragile as you imply.

Depending on your age, glass may have been the only option available at the
time. Lead paint and asbestos was normal until the last 20 years. Any
optician putting children in glass in this day is asking to lose his or her
license. There is no logical reason for doing so.

I've watched glass lenses shatter just lying on a dashboard. I've seen them
shatter due to 100 degree temperature changes ( this can be merely coming
inside in Alaska during the winter.)  The number of conchoidal fractures
I've seen (ejecting a scalpel blade candidate,) are equivalent to the
population of a small state.

> And there are no needle like shards of glass projected back from
> windshields.  I had an aluminum boat driveshaft crash through mine a
> few years back at 75mph.  All of the glass that broke free was
> pebbled.

Side windows break into pebbled chunks with a few slivers flying. The front
windshields throw a large amount of splinters backwards. I do have first
hand experience since I've been picking splinters out of my forehead for 4
years now ever since I found a 1000 lb moose in my path less than 75 ft away
while doing 65mph. I never hit the windshield, I caught the storm of razors
that flew back into me. The inside of the car was not coated with "pebbles",
it was full of ragged chunks and shards. (I won't get into the fur and
such.)

> The only real argument against glass lenses is weight.  Any face plant
> that would break them is going to cause more serious injuries first,
> as I can attest from experience (none of mine ever broke).

The only two arguements against glass are it's weight and it's likelihood of
shattering into sharp fragments flying back towards the eyes. Rx lenses
can't be tempered to the same evenness as side windows in a car. The risk of
glass for children or any physically active person is not worth any
percieved benefit.

Consider yourself one of the lucky ones, a solid face plant can break CR-39
lenses. Yeah, any force strong enough to break CR-39 would result in other
trauma to the face.

alarmist? REALLY??  Hmm.

Carl

> Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.
Robert Martellaro - 08 Jan 2008 23:14 GMT
>I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are around
>+3 with no astigmatisms.  My current glasses are polycarbonate lens.  Before
>them, I had glass.  I noticed a drop in "brightness" with the polycarbonate
>lens.

I would want to look at the lenses to see if they look clear, free of haze, and
are highly polished.  

>Would Plastic or Trivex make the lens brighter?

Although the light transmission is lower with Poly (89.7% versus 92% for Cr39
plastic), that's just not enough difference to be noticeable. Look elsewhere.  

>How "unsafe" is glass?

Safe enough for general use. Many people outside of the U.S. wear glass lenses
with 1mm edges or centers, sometimes without tempering. I'm not aware of a
higher rate of eye injuries related to glass lenses in the U.K. or Germany. Just
don't wear them (or wear over the eyeglass protection) when using a table saw, a
nail gun, or when hunting or playing racquetball.

>My glass lens up until this time were bullet proof i.e. they took a
>lot of bumps.

Your plus three diopter lenses are at least 3mm thick at the center; it would
take a pretty big hammer to break them. (If you try it, wear eye protection!) A
thinner lens with pits or scratches might break if dropped on the sidewalk.
(Glass is very scratch resistant but not scratch proof. Moreover, scratches
negate the tempering process, decreasing their impact resistance.)

>And even if a lens was to shatter, would the eyelid not close
>in time to protect the eye?

Not necessarily. Besides, the shards of glass and the object that impacted the
lens is not going to be stopped by a thin layer of soft tissue.

>I have to think that my eyes behind a glass
>lens are infinitely more protected than the guy that doesn't wear glasses of
>any kind......

I've heard, but can't substantiate, that soldiers in the Vietnam war who wore
eyeglasses had fewer eye injuries than those who didn't wear glasses (they were
pretty much all glass lenses back then). Although eyeglasses protect the eyes
from low mass, low speed objects like dirt and tree branches, you should use at
least 2mm thick Trivex or Poly lenses in an appropriate frame for protection
from larger, heavier, and/or high speed objects.  

Hope this helps

Robert Martellaro
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Optician/Owner
Roberts Optical
Wauwatosa Wi.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself."
- Richard Feynman
C - 11 Jan 2008 02:26 GMT
Awesome responses!  Thank you,
Chris

>>I can't find my perscription, but if memory is correct, both eyes are
>>around
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
> "Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself."
> - Richard Feynman
 
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