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Medical Forum / General / Vision / September 2007

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A failure of imagination?

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Neil Brooks - 25 Sep 2007 15:34 GMT
Otis Brown (f.cking idiot and pathological liar) wrote:

>Subject: How AVOIDING entry into scurvy -- was achieved!

>Since I am familiar with this story -- the means and method
>are comparable to PREVENTING entry into a negative refractive
>STATE for the eye.
>
>When voyages began to extend beyond three months, a small
>percentage of sailors got bleeding gums and other "heath"
>problems. When the sailors went around the world, with voyages of
>2 to 3 years, scurvy would run from 30 percent to 40 percent, with
>30 percent dying of scurvy related issues. This was from 1530's
>
>No one knew what to do. The symptoms were treated -- but it
>was a big mystery.
>
>I would suggest that this type of problem is not "open" to an
>absolute blind study.

Anybody else have any difficulty whatsoever imagining how an
effective, "proper" trial could be constructed?

Didn't think so.

My, oh, my, but you're a f.cking idiot, Uncle Otie.

It's simply astounding.

>In the 1750, a Captain James Cook, became very concerned. He
>"read the literature", but could come to no absolute conclusion.
>But he formed to very strong judgments:
>
>1. Be clean: He forced the ship to be clean in every respect,
>down to the bilge. The sailors hated the idea.
>
>2. He insisted that the OFFICERS eat sauerkraut -- and denied it
>to the seaman -- at first.
>
>3. He insisted that the sailors eat fresh food, meats (when
>available), and would stop to collect any fresh food that
>was available. The sailors HATED the idea.
>
>4. The crew had been fed preserved foods (SALTED pork and the
>like). The crew loved there "preserved" food -- and hated
>all the fresh food.
>
>5. Eventually when the crew saw their experts (the officers)
>eating sauerkraut -- they learned to eat it also.
>
>The result of ALL these efforts by James Cook, was that while
>some of the crew died of accidents, no one got scurvy -- on a
>three year voyage.
>
>Now, was this "proof"? Not according to the "medical"
>definition -- where the entire world must be a "blind study" --
>(RCCT) before ANY RESULTS are "accepted".
>
>It is this intellectually BLIND insistence (by medical
>people) on ALWAYS a blind study for SCIENCE TRUTH -- that drives
>me up the wall. Call it "medical truth" but please NEVER call it
>"scientific truth". Science NEVER requires a "blind study".
>
>Even with Cook's "proof", the rest of the British navy would
>not take PREVENTION seriously. I think it took another 50 years
>before these results were accepted by that Navy.

What do you think Cook would have said if HIS niece, Joyce V. Benson
became a myope (with restricted driver's license) despite HIS attempts
at prevention?

Remember: it's a metaphysical impossibility that Cook could have been
even a fraction of the pathological liar AND f.cking idiot that you
are.

Defend your answer.
otisbrown@pa.net - 25 Sep 2007 19:51 GMT
In case you wonder what Babbling Brooks is Blathering
about ... here it tis...

============

Dear Alex, and prevention-minded friends,

Subject: How AVOIDING entry into scurvy -- was achieved!

Re: The elements of the problem are very similar -- to
AVOIDING entry into nearsightedness.

The formulation of a problem is often far more essential
than its solution, which may be a matter of mathematical
or experimental skill. To raise new questions,
new possibilities, to regard old problems from a
new angle, requires creative imagination and marks
real advances in science.

- Albert Einstein

Since I am familiar with this story -- the means and method
are comparable to PREVENTING entry into a negative refractive
STATE for the eye.

When voyages began to extend beyond three months, a small
percentage of sailors got bleeding gums and other "heath"
problems. When the sailors went around the world, with voyages of
2 to 3 years, scurvy would run from 30 percent to 40 percent, with
30 percent dying of scurvy related issues. This was from 1530's

No one knew what to do. The symptoms were treated -- but it
was a big mystery.

I would suggest that this type of problem is not "open" to an
absolute blind study.

In the 1750, a Captain James Cook, became very concerned. He
"read the literature", but could come to no absolute conclusion.
But he formed to very strong judgments:

1. Be clean: He forced the ship to be clean in every respect,
down to the bilge. The sailors hated the idea.

2. He insisted that the OFFICERS eat sauerkraut -- and denied it
to the seaman -- at first.

3. He insisted that the sailors eat fresh food, meats (when
available), and would stop to collect any fresh food that
was available. The sailors HATED the idea.

4. The crew had been fed preserved foods (SALTED pork and the
like). The crew loved there "preserved" food -- and hated
all the fresh food.

5. Eventually when the crew saw their experts (the officers)
eating sauerkraut -- they learned to eat it also.

The result of ALL these efforts by James Cook, was that while
some of the crew died of accidents, no one got scurvy -- on a
three year voyage.

Now, was this "proof"? Not according to the "medical"
definition -- where the entire world must be a "blind study" --
(RCCT) before ANY RESULTS are "accepted".

It is this intellectually BLIND insistence (by medical
people) on ALWAYS a blind study for SCIENCE TRUTH -- that drives
me up the wall. Call it "medical truth" but please NEVER call it
"scientific truth". Science NEVER requires a "blind study".

Even with Cook's "proof", the rest of the British navy would
not take PREVENTION seriously. I think it took another 50 years
before these results were accepted by that Navy.

So, Alex, to further enhance your comments:

================

Alex> Like the sailors who "spontaneously" recovered from scurvy.

Otis> Obviously it was not "spontaneous". It took the wise mind
and judgment (and support) to make scurvy-prevention
effective. And the proof was STATISTICAL, i.e., rate from
30 percent to 1 percent. It STILL took another 50 years
before the rest of the Navy "woke up" to the idea of
scurvy-prevention. I think the same will be true of
PREVENTING a negative refractive STATE of the natural eye.
It is the PUBLIC that needs to be flogged to wear that plus
for reading -- if you get my "drift".

Alex> Oh, by the way it turns out they just happened to be eating
lemons.

Otis> And the people with great force-of-character are looking at
their Snellen -- and clearing them, under THEIR own WISE
control.

Otis> That is wise. Can we "prove" it?? No, because they
personally had to look at the facts themselves, and
understand that they will NEVER get any help with
prevention -- from people like Dr. Judy.

Otis> Some things you can not do "by yourself". But preventing a
negative refractive STATE for your eyes -- is an item where
there is no choice -- if you take your distant vision
seriously.

Alex> Maybe we should look into that?

Otis> That is indeed why your are doing far more than the National
Eye Institute is EVER going to do about it.

Otis> But the REAL ISSUE is the public's rejection of the
preventive method at the threshold. And that is an
INTELLECTUAL issue the person himself must over-come.

Otis> The problem is that we attempt to FORCE the OD to be
responsible for it -- when in fact we are PERSONALLY
responsible for it.

Otis> Now if we could only understand that issue correctly.

Otis> Does 88 percent myopic entering Hong Kong university mean
anything to us? Did 30 percent death rate from scurvy mean
anything to anyone -- for 200 years?

Otis

+++++++++

> Otis Brown (f.cking idiot and pathological liar) wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mike Tyner - 25 Sep 2007 20:12 GMT
> I would suggest that this type of problem is not "open" to an
> absolute blind study.

Perhaps not. That doesn't mean you can't test the hypothesis.

Choose two similar groups of people. Treat one, don't treat the other. Does
the treated group show any benefit?

The treatments don't have to be simultaneous. They can even be done in
different parts of the world.

All that matters is matching the two groups for age, ethnicity, and other
demographics, and making sure the treatment protocol is uniform.

So what happens when YOU subject one group to "plus prevention" and compare
them to untreated individuals?

We're still waiting for you to tell us what happens when you test your 'plus
prevention" with actual measurements on real humans.

Everything I can find indicates that it does no good. Perhaps you can prove
otherwise by demonstrating results with real humans.

> Otis> Does 88 percent myopic entering Hong Kong university mean
> anything to us? Did 30 percent death rate from scurvy mean
> anything to anyone -- for 200 years?

Oh, yes, the fact that there is a problem GUARANTEES that you have the
solution, even though nobody else can make it work.

-MT
Neil Brooks - 25 Sep 2007 20:24 GMT
Yup.

Mike nailed it ... and right away, Uncle Scrotis.

Now ... as a really, really bright, rational, logical, and clinically
astute guy ... it's arguable that Mike's a bit of an outlier ...
but ... I'd venture to say that nearly anybody with a high school
education could have also come up with the correct answer.

Not you, though.  Nope.  Not in your wildest, Thorazine-fueled dreams.

Didn't being a janitor at Goddard teach you ANYTHING ... other than
the finer points of being a pathological liar and a f.cking idiot?"

Just curious.
Dan Abel - 25 Sep 2007 20:58 GMT
> > Otis> Does 88 percent myopic entering Hong Kong university mean
> > anything to us? Did 30 percent death rate from scurvy mean
> > anything to anyone -- for 200 years?
>
> Oh, yes, the fact that there is a problem GUARANTEES that you have the
> solution, even though nobody else can make it work.

But he cured SCURVY!  Doesn't that mean anything to you?
Dr Judy - 25 Sep 2007 20:50 GMT
On Sep 25, 2:51 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> In case you wonder what Babbling Brooks is Blathering
> about ... here it tis...

Much as I hate it when discussions from one forum get posted to
another...... here is my reply to Otis' scurvy saga (as posted on
Myopiafree2

--- In Myopiafree2@yahoogroups.com, "Otis S. Brown" <otisbrown@...>
wrote:

> Scurvy.txt
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I would suggest that this type of problem is not "open" to an
> absolute blind study.

Sure it is, and James Lind conducted a clinical trial in 1747 of
various items thought to be effective against scurvy. He didn't do
it as a blind trial, but he did have various groups, each with a
different treatment and random assignment.

> In the 1750, a Captain James Cook, became very concerned. He
> "read the literature", but could come to no absolute conclusion.
> But he formed to very strong judgments:

Actually you got your dates and persons a little mixed up. Citrus
fruit were known to be effective antiscorbitics as early as 1600.
In 1747 James Lind demonstrated the effectiveness of citrus fruit in
curing scury in one of the earliest clinical trials: he gave various
foods or supplements, all rumoured to prevent scurvy to different
groups of sailors suffering from scurvy and found citrus to be the
effective remedy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scurvy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lind

Cook fed his seamen both sauerkraut and a citrus syrup, the
sauerkraut did not work as well as the citrus. His three year voyage
was in 1768, not 1750.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook

Citrus was expensive and the Navy continued to use other things like
saurekraut, vinegar and malt based on testimonial evidence, not
Lind's clinical trial results, and scurvy continued to be a problem.
Finally, the Navy heeded the clinical trial and added lemon or lime
juice to sailors' rations during the Napoleonic wars.

For a well written book about scurvy and its cure see:

http://www.amazon.com/Scurvy-Surgeon-Mariner-Gentlemen-
Greatest/dp/0312313926

In it, you will find that relying on testimonials and common
knowledge and ignoring a scientific clinical trial resulted in the
delay of implementation of a cure for scurvy.

Judy
 
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