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Medical Forum / General / Vision / October 2007

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myopia and eye strain at near

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a06812@gmail.com - 24 Sep 2007 15:25 GMT
Hi

I can tell that my eyes have got more myopic since my last
prescription. So until I get a new prescription I think it's a bit
like having a slight plus lens on (probably about 0.5D). However, my
eyes are feeling increasingly strained when using the computer
(admittedly I do a lot).

So my question is, why do I need more "minus" in order to see close up
without my eyes getting tired?

I am 34. This also happened the last time I needed a bit more "minus".
Both eyes changed about the same amount and there was no increase in
astigmatism.

Thanks for any opinions
Richard
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Sep 2007 15:32 GMT
On Sep 24, 9:25 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Thanks for any opinions
> Richard

It sounds like a convergence problem.  Less minus = less accommodation
= less convergence.
Zetsu - 24 Sep 2007 16:07 GMT
It sounds like exactly what he himself has written in the title;

Strain.
Neil Brooks - 24 Sep 2007 16:50 GMT
Sorry.  Rishi Giovanni Gatti (Zetsu), Lena102938, and Otis Brown are
trolls who haunt s.m.v.

Rishi has published, and is trying to sell worthless books.

Otis is pathologically dishonest and actually hurts people.
Following his advice can induce double vision in those
not working closely with an eye doctor.

Lena102938 uses anti-eye doctor rhetoric as a substitute for ANY
actual information.  It seems she now has to wear glasses and has
developed a pathological (and ILLOGICAL) resentment toward the
industry that "foisted these glasses upon her."

You'd do well to ignore them and wait for responses from the
caring, compassionate eye doctors who DO also participate in this site.
a06812@gmail.com - 28 Sep 2007 11:41 GMT
> It sounds like a convergence problem.  Less minus = less accommodation
> = less convergence.

Thanks for this. I do get told to do the convergence exercises so that
could well explain it. I think I will practise doing them more before
I get an eye test.
lena102938 - 28 Sep 2007 18:05 GMT
> On Sep 24, 9:25 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> It sounds like a convergence problem.  Less minus = less accommodation
> = less convergence.

I agree here .
But it is the call to eye exercise

Is ODs have some logical harmony inside  themselves   what is going on
in myopia-presbyopia - hypermetropia progression?
It looks like  all of you  (not all, actually, smart ones ) have some
experience that contradicts
the things that are in regulations.you were taught.
you simply do not want to accept  the truth, that you can
feel because the truth disturbs your own  perception  of the things,
things  that you were taught..

But sometimes,
Your answers are guided by that experience, it is nice.
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 Sep 2007 18:32 GMT
Dear Lena,

Subject:  The mind-set of the majority-opinion ODs.

If the ODs acknowledged that they simply give the
public what it "wants" (in five minutes) -- there would
be no argument or discussion.

That DEFINES the nature of optometry.

However they have developed a belief-system -- that
is simply not scientific.

So they state their "mantra" (minus lens WONDERFUL,
all who question are WRONG) endlessly.

But, as they point out, the public (in its ignorance) is indeed
hostile to plus-prevention.

It takes good science to finally recognize the deeper
(as scientific truth) of this situation.

Prevention (in the threshold) is not easy -- but is
is possible.

Just my second-opinion,

Otis

> > On Sep 24, 9:25 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mike Tyner - 28 Sep 2007 20:10 GMT
> Prevention (in the threshold) is not easy -- but is
> is possible.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 Sep 2007 21:04 GMT
Yes, Mike, it took a considerable act of "faith" for
Captain Cook to introduce anti-scurvy efforts for
his crew.

And I am certain that some of the crew were
calling him a F. I. for instituting those life-saving
efforts.   (Not to his face, of course.)

Further his successful efforts could only be recognized
against the back-drop of 30 percent dead on long
voyages.

Yes, soving difficult problems does take a lot of "faith" -- no
doubt about it.  But it is in science that this "faith" must rest.

But you must get your facts right (about the dynamic
behavior in the first place) to do it "right".

Just my second-opinion,

Otis

> <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 28 Sep 2007 23:39 GMT
> But you must get your facts right (about the dynamic
> behavior in the first place) to do it "right".

As long as we don't actually test your "prevention" in humans.

You can believe anything you like because you have no license to maintain.

I couldn't find evidence that it works in humans. That's why we believe
you're lying.

-MT
Mike Tyner - 29 Sep 2007 00:56 GMT
> Further his successful efforts could only be recognized
> against the back-drop of 30 percent dead on long
> voyages.

Scurvy reversed and incidence pretty much dropped to zero when Vitamin C was
added.

Now say 30% of the human population gets nearsighted. What happens when you
add Vitamin P?

It's idiotic - the average joe optometrist would jump at the chance to
recommend your treatment, and 30 years ago many of them did. Why did they
quit? Anybody know?

But it isn't the average joe optometrist you have to convince. It's the
ophthalmologists and pediatricians. And they aren't here, hint hint, and
neither are the professors who write their textbooks. If you win them over,
we guys in the trenches will follow suit right away. You don't seem to
believe me. We really would.

Even so, if you walked into any optometrist I know, chances are you could
convince him to follow just about any reasonable course of "myopia
prevention" if you show you've done reseach and know what you're talking
about. Undercorrection, overcorrection, bifocals, contacts, ortho-k, no
treatment at all, special plus readers, anything so long as kids can see the
blackboard and drivers can drive and there's no suffering. Why wouldn't we?

It. Just. Don't. Work. Enough. To. Matter. They're teaching that in the
universities RIGHT NOW. I really think you should hurry over to their
newsgroups and change their minds RIGHT AWAY. This is important. You really
must fix this.

When you're done, would you change a few state regs, FTC rulings, and
overturn some case law for us? Whatta guy!

-MT
A.G.McDowell - 29 Sep 2007 06:43 GMT
(trimmed)

>Even so, if you walked into any optometrist I know, chances are you could
>convince him to follow just about any reasonable course of "myopia
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>newsgroups and change their minds RIGHT AWAY. This is important. You really
>must fix this.

I would agree that a statement that nothing yet tried has been shown to
work well enough is reasonable. I believe that some work within academia
is still in progress towards at least slowing the progression of myopia,
such as COMET 2 (search on COMET 2 myopia to find loads of pdfs or see
short mention in http://www.opt.indiana.edu/bcor/research.htm), a trial
of progressive addition lenses in particular circumstances, and a trial
by O'Leary on reducing blur by correcting aberrations to an unusually
high degree using contact lenses (was publicised, no doubt to aid
subject recruitment, in 2005: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4437067.
stm).

If you subscribe to the conventional view that the increased prevalence
of myopia in developed countries is due to near work then it seems
reasonable that removal of near work (though entirely impractical) would
greatly reduce the problem. The practical details of finding a way to
reduce myopia while preserving literacy, education, and indeed
entertainment remain, but it is surely worth at least keeping a watch on
the problem, in the hope that it will become easier as technology moves
forward, for instance by making computer projectors and large high
quality displays more widely available.
Signature

A.G.McDowell

otisbrown@pa.net - 29 Sep 2007 14:17 GMT
Dear Mike,

If you feel you are caught in a web of "red tape" -- then
I regret that.

But what that suggests is that you truly can not become
part of a PREVENTION program.

Further, as per the anti-scurvy efforts of Captain Cook, I
would suggest that your "position" is like
the doctors sailing long before Captain Cook.

They would treat the sailors for bleeding gums and
other malise that developed -- but they were
NEVER in a position to do ANYTHING to
prevent the entry into scurvey.

In fact, what were they going to recommend to
the sailor with bleeding gums -- who was
dying.

"...sailor, you should have had a better diet"?

That is the issue that Captain Cook took responsibility
for -- and made it work.

Best,

Otis

> <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 29 Sep 2007 14:37 GMT
> If you feel you are caught in a web of "red tape" -- then
> I regret that.

And you could fix all that.

Just publish the data showing it works in humans.

That's all it takes.

It's so easy - why won't you help all those children whose doctors wallow in
ignorance?

JUST SHOW US IT WORKS.

When you hold back that information, it looks foolish, or deceptive, or just
plain psychotic.

Which are you?

-MT
MsBrainy - 29 Sep 2007 18:43 GMT
>Dear Mike,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>But what that suggests is that you truly can not become
>part of a PREVENTION program.

 <snip>

Otis,

This thread began with a question by a 34 yr old person, far beyond the age
of "prevention".  You continuously state that prevention (according to you)
is possible only BEFORE the minus less is used, which is not the case here.
Why do you continue to steal threads for your purposes?  Do you think it's
fair?  This thread is NOT about prevention, got it?

Signature

MsBrainy

p.clarkii@gmail.com - 29 Sep 2007 23:44 GMT
> Why do you continue to steal threads for your purposes?  Do you think it's
> fair?

Otis spied a soap-box, and thought he would just jump up on it.
again.  and again.
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 01:31 GMT
> otisbr...@pa.net wrote:
> >Dear Mike,
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Message posted viahttp://www.medkb.com

No.
We can prevent presbyopia
RT - 30 Sep 2007 02:25 GMT
> We can prevent presbyopia

Cool, tell me how in a clear way that's guaranteed to work. I have a lot
going on, a lot of stuff to read and writing to get done, in other words
a ton of close work and I'd rather not have to deal with presbyopia.

I have a question that's been nagging at me. If the eye is dynamic as
you say and close work leads to myopia, why is it that since I've had
LASIK, I haven't gotten more myopic (still 20/15) but I'm going
presbyotic? I mean, I read and write a lot, all day long in fact and my
close vision is getting worse. I'd like a little myopia these days while
I'm reading and typing at the computer, but then have it disappear when
I'm not doing close work. How do I do that?

BTW, who's "we."

Signature

~RT

lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 03:09 GMT
> In article <1191112318.543269.323...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> --
> ~RT

If you already have high presbyopia , probably it is too late.

I spend all days behind the screen,
Most of the time I need to see multiple
windows simultaneously.
>From that point of view big screen ( 20"-21") is
more comfortable. I changed 17" for  21 and worked on it for couple
of month , It was really good that I could
see more info
But it was really, really awful for eyes.

I switch back to 17"_with_resolution 1920 X 1200
(there are not so many screens like that the only I know is Dell)
where I use  very tiny font (which is impossible on regular monitors)
When I started using my old monitor with tiny font again I almost
could not  read it.
Couple of month of big screen was enough to slide me into some +.
It OK now.

If you had Lasik , it is very cool, really.

Try another screen.
But technically I do not think that it will work for you,
because probably too small prints will be not really comfortable for
you now.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 Sep 2007 03:21 GMT
> > In article <1191112318.543269.323...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> because probably too small prints will be not really comfortable for
> you now.

please answer his questions.  he asked you (I am paraphrasing):

"tell me how to prevent presbyopia.  please explain it in a clear
way" .  and instead of answering how to prevent it you started talking
about your computer screens.

also, you said "we can prevent myopia" and he asked you to explain
what you mean when you said "we".  it sounds like more people are
involved besides you.  what group of people is it that prevents
presbyopia from occurring and how do they do it?
RT - 30 Sep 2007 03:25 GMT
> If you already have high presbyopia , probably it is too late.

No, I don't have high presbyopia. I am on that magical threshold. I want
to know how to prevent it. I had a pair of +0.5 made for when my eyes
get tired or the light isn't optimal. As I said, I'm looking for
prevention. You said "We can prevent presbyopia." I'd really like to
prevent it!

Computer screen size isn't the issue for me; the font can always be made
bigger if necessary. I'm not at that point yet--it's books and other
print material that's starting to give me trouble.

So, please tell me since you claim you "we" can do it; "we can prevent
presbyopia." Is your prevention method simply buying a bigger computer
screen?

Signature

~RT

lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 03:55 GMT
> In article <1191118179.575719.159...@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> bigger if necessary. I'm not at that point yet--it's books and other
> print material that's starting to give me trouble.

Wait, you are really cool that you made Lasik
I am serious.

I know that size of font you can made bigger.

But probably computer can give that + effect.

As I wrote I worked with very tiny fonts on my screen

Then I changed for just regular good quality 20"

I noticed that I can not read text (not computer , computer was OK)
on my regular reading  distance .

I did not assume from the beginning that it is because i changed the
monitor
I just started thinking why in two month I slided into plus.
What changed ?  I understood that I changed monitor.

I switched back again on that tiny font.
It is really different monitor, because resolution is 1920X1200
I can put the same amount of info on my 17" screen like on 21"
only it is very small font. Web page on my screen is only half of
screen.

Exercises would not work, because of all day behind computer nullify
all of that.

Just think, probably something changed in your working environment  ?

> So, please tell me since you claim you "we" can do it; "we can prevent
> presbyopia." Is your prevention method simply buying a bigger computer
> screen?
>
> --
Screen should not be bigger It should be smaller like  17"
bigger screen I think probably bad for convergence.

But resolution should be huge.
That screens they do not sell in places like best Buy. I've  seen only
online.
Newer screens have high contrast. I do not think that it is too good
for eyes too.

If you would like to you can give a try to screen with small print.
But as DrG. wrote after Lasik it is common to slide into +
RT - 30 Sep 2007 04:39 GMT
> Exercises would not work, because of all day behind computer nullify
> all of that.

I don't spend all day at the computer. So what kinds of exercises can I
do?

> Just think, probably something changed in your working environment  ?

No, nothing's changed. I do a lot of reading (books). I write on my 15"
laptop with resolution 1440x900 without any problem. It's reading menus,
theatre programs, books, xerox copies, you know, stuff printed on paper
that is getting harder to read especially if lighting isn't optimum.

> > So, please tell me since you claim you "we" can do it; "we can prevent
> > presbyopia." Is your prevention method simply buying a bigger computer
> > screen?

> Screen should not be bigger It should be smaller like  17"
> bigger screen I think probably bad for convergence.
>
> But resolution should be huge.

> If you would like to you can give a try to screen with small print.

That's your prevention method? High (huge) resolution computer monitors?
So making the print smaller will prevent presbyopia?

> But as DrG. wrote after Lasik it is common to slide into +

Well, as I understand it, it is "common" for everyone to "slide" into
presbyopia sometime in the their 40s, LASIKed or not. Does LASIK cause
presbyopia? Is that what you are saying?

You said "we can prevent prebyopia." PLEASE tell me how. Are you just
being obtuse because you don't really want to share how "we" do it or is
it really as simple as getting a 17" laptop with small print? It would
more of a pain to carry a 17" laptop around than my 12" or 15" laptops,
but I'd be willing to do it if would prevent presbyopia. BTW who is "we"?

I really would appreciate a clear, straightforward explanation of how
"we can prevent presbyopia" because I really want to prevent it.

Signature

~RT

lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 04:49 GMT
> In article <1191120941.092881.21...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> --
> ~RT

Well, If you wish to pack Yourself into glasses again
start with progressives, only it will not be myopia. you would not see
not at
distance not close.

But i do not think that person who made Lasik jump would like that.

Just do not pay attention on your persbiopia.
Use readers when you need it . You have almost perfect vision.
RT - 30 Sep 2007 05:06 GMT
> Well, If you wish to pack Yourself into glasses again
> start with progressives, only it will not be myopia. you would not see
> not at
> distance not close.
>
> But i do not think that person who made Lasik jump would like that.

Why would I even consider progressives? I don't need distance
correction.

> Just do not pay attention on your persbiopia.
> Use readers when you need it .

But I got LASIK so I didn't have to wear glasses. I want to PREVENT
getting presbyopia so I don't need readers. You said "We can prevent
presbyopia." Are you saying now that there is no prevention and that my
only recourse is to wear reading glasses?

So now are you saying "We can NOT prevent presbyopia"?
That there's no way to avoid reading glasses (short of my giving up
reading and other close work)?

> You have almost perfect vision.

It's the "almost" that is the problem. I'd like to keep my perfect
vision.
No one is more motivated than I am to prevent presbyopia.

Signature

~RT

otisbrown@pa.net - 30 Sep 2007 05:14 GMT
Dear RT,

Subject: Decreasing range of accommodation with age.

Re:  Call it "presbyopia" -- if you wish.

With your 20/15 vision -- you are in excellent shape.

The range of accommdation decreases from age five
(about 13 diopters) to about 1 to 2 diopters as you go over
45.  Getting "older" does have its problems.

Thus, I agree with the majority-opinion OD on this
site.

You MIGHT have the choice of losing some of your
20/15 vision to keep your near vision clear.

Just get some low-cost readers -- and use them
when necessary.

Just one man's opinion,

Otis

> In article <1191124191.747778.124...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> --
> ~RT
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 15:07 GMT
On Sep 29, 11:14 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear RT,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (about 13 diopters) to about 1 to 2 diopters as you go over
> 45.  Getting "older" does have its problems.

Otis,
I agree, but
They had theory that it is a lens "flex"

New MRI data about lens :

While some studies of the isolated lens have implicated mechanical
changes in lens material
as a causal factor in presbyopia development, it has frequently been
noted that these studies
fail to account for the early onset of accommodative loss and suffer
from significant post mortem
tissue changes, the application of non-physiological forces, and
inappropriate statistical treatment
of the data; when adequate statistical analysis is performed, no
change in lens mechanical properties
is found until after age 70.
from
www.eyeworld.org/article.php?sid=4004

> Thus, I agree with the majority-opinion OD on this
> site.
>
> You MIGHT have the choice of losing some of your
> 20/15 vision to keep your near vision clear.

Probably, but not at 45. -50

> Just get some low-cost readers -- and use them
> when necessary.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> > --
> > ~RT
otisbrown@pa.net - 30 Sep 2007 15:53 GMT
Dear Lena,

Subject:  Choosing "trade-offs" reasonably.

If I had a choice, I would rather clear my vision with a plus
(used before the minus), and keep my Snellen clear
during the school years.  But that is a choice or
"trade-off".

But when I get to 45 and over, I am going to have
clear distant vision (pass the DMV), but I will
"lose" some near vision.  But knowing the
change in range of accommodation with age -- I can
mitigate some of the effect.

My neice has about 20/40 vision, and a refractive
STATE of about -1 diopters.

As some of the majority-opinion ODs suggest -- she
has the best of "both worlds".

To meed the legal requirement to drive, she gets
a weak minus which she keeps on the dash.  Wears
it to meet the law.  She wears no minus at any other time.

Because she is getting "older", the fact that her
refractive STATE of -1 diopter means that she will
keep her NEAR vision -- probably through age 70 or greater.

This is because the depth-of-focus of about 1 to 1.5 diopters
will take care of her near vision.

I do not think she has used any lens (plus or minus) for
the past 15 years.

She went through college and graduate school wearing the
plus -- and passing the DMV at that time.

I have discussed, and recommended this course of action
to her.  And she likes wearing no lens at all.

That is the best type of solution for her.

Just one man's opinion,

Otis

> On Sep 29, 11:14 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 20:00 GMT
On Sep 30, 9:53 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Lena,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> change in range of accommodation with age -- I can
> mitigate some of the effect.

I  agree with you.

but have +2/ add2 at 45 it demands good pushing work of OD
What they do with grate success

The picture is the same like with miopia:
If person buying readers off the shelfs progression goes slowly,
if the person was caught by OD (following   friend-optician advice,
which instead of making good advises just wants new customer)

then rock-in roll like with myopia:
adopt 1 year-push cycle
under fairy-tale of all time wearing
After person adopts to all time wearing OD will switch to
progressives  ( if not to put
the customer into all time
progressives sooner or later customer
will be lost he just buy again from the shelf)

In five years OD reaches amazing results
under theory that at 45 near vision is bad.
Neil Brooks - 01 Oct 2007 04:48 GMT
Neither Otis nor lena could produce valid proof of their hypotheses if
their very lives depended on it.

In so many ways, I wish that they did.

Sorry, RT.  I guess your answer to "What do I do about presbyopia --"
from BOTH Tweedledum AND Tweedledee -- when boiled RIGHT down -- is
the same as any eye doctor would tell you: sorry.  Wear reading
glasses.

And THAT IS the collective wisdom of the much touted "second-
opinion:"  They've got jack sh.t to teach anybody.

Thanks, Lena (you f.cking idiot debutante).

Thanks, Otis: you absolute f.cking idiot and pathological liar.
Zetsu - 01 Oct 2007 13:27 GMT
The 'collective opinion' of all this profession is nonsense too.
The only real way is to cure oneself by rest treatment.
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 05:00 GMT
> In article <1191120941.092881.21...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> --
> ~RT

Look I mean  fast progression.

I started using back that monitor and started see better like two
month before
But for me it was really monitor. And only 2 month.
You are right , that my notebook  is unbelievably   heavy.

Just do not think about presbyopia
You are fine.
RT - 30 Sep 2007 05:14 GMT
> Look I mean  fast progression.

So what you really meant is that "we" (you and everyone else?) can only
slow down the progression of presbyopia, but not prevent it? How do you
know it's progressing more slowly? I find my "need" for readers is not
consistent day to day or even week to week. I think that's how it always
starts.

> Just do not think about presbyopia
> You are fine.

It's hard not to think about it when I can't read my work.
I really, really want to prevent it.

Oh well.

Signature

~RT

Zetsu - 30 Sep 2007 11:45 GMT
Hello RT,

You can cure all your problem with the rest methods.
This is a bold and immense statement I know, but true for sure.
I have pasted here the story of 59 year old Catherine, who posted on
the iblindness forum some of her experience in curing presbyopia. You
will find it interesting perhaps.

"Ten days ago, I discovered Dr. Bates, his book, his method and
iblindness.org. With glasses, Day 1, I began reading Dr. Bakes' book.
It made so much sense to me that I immediately tried  palming as Dr.
Bates instructed and experienced very short clear flashing. I took off
my glasses and decided I would never put them on again unless
absolutely necessary. Dr. Bates completely convinced me that my near-
vision could be restored. On Day 2, I continued to read Dr. Bates book
and also began to practice Bates Method and convergence using Dr.
Gottlieb's Presbyopia Reduction Chart. On Day 3, when outside in the
sunshire and without glasses, I was astounded to find myself reading
and seeing clearly with near-vision. However, when I went indoors, my
near-vision blurred again.

On Day 4, I decided to dedicate all my free time to Bates Method and
improve my vision as rapidy as possible. At this point, I began
sunning and continued combining Bates Method with convergence
practice. When working with eye charts indoors, blurring diminished,
but on Day 5, I started experiencing  refraction errors. I began
imagining letters with perfect white halos and by Day 7 all the
astigmatic-type refraction errors ceased.  I was spending 6-9 hours a
day practicing Bates Method both indoors and outdoors.

Fortunately, I work at home, so my schedule is very flexible. I
dropped everything except absolutely necessary work on the computer
and set my monitors to lowest resolution so as to be able to work
without glasses. Even so the screen was blurry, so I  increased
browser text size to enormous. This is enormously inconvenient and my
work takes twice as long to accomplish, but I only resort to glasses
for when absolutely necessary, and less and less frequently. When
working on computer, I practice palming, shifting and flashing to
clear vision.

On Day 7, while alternating convergence and palming, I imagined along
these lines: here we are, the three of us, ego, mind and eyes. I told
my mind, just see how dear eyes, through no fault of their own, but
due to our own ignorance, have been locked in behind glasses for
twelve years. Now we know that dear eyes are perfect and always were
perfect. Mind and eyes, you are one but have both suffered from being
separated. I (ego) now give up trying to force eyes to see. Mind, you
are the seer! I am returning eyes  to your care, so please remember
how you used to see and assist eyes by relearning how control the
muscles and nerves that help eyes to do what always did so well. Now I
am just going to imagine black, and you, mind, are now completely free
to restore eyes to their naturally perfect shape and function. Mind
was very responsive to this coaching. Intermittently during this
session, I experienced almost-electrical impulses stimulating my eye
muscles. These sensations arose at intervals with a regularity that
reminded me of childbirth labor contractions. These sensations were
accompanied by what felt like gritty particles being dislodged and
released from around and behind my eyeballs. I made sure to breathe
and relax through the process so as to not interpret any discomfort
from these sensations as pain that might interfere with what my mind
was accomplishing. I understood that my mind was reestablishing its
connection with eyes. Although I remained emotionally calm and just
observed what was happening, tears poured from my eyes and snot from
my nose. Since this session, my vision clearing is considerably
faster, and every clearing brings incremental lasting improvement.

Since Day 3, clearing of my vision in sunlight has never diminished
but only improved. Any blurring on computer and under indoor lighting
improves with frequent palming. I continue combining Bates Method with
convergence practice. Last night, Day 9, I began to be able to read in
bright indoor lighting.

When I started wearing glasses, my only problem was reading small
print within arms-length distance, but during the twelve years my eyes
were locked in their glasses prison, my near-vision gradually receded
to the point where objects and print many feet or yards away were
blurry. Since taking off my glasses and practicing Bates Method, every
day the range of clarity approaches nearer, as if my near-vision is
"coming at me".

Thanks to Bates Method, I begun experiencing astounding depth
perception, nuances of shadow, light and sunlight, colors and details
that I had been deprived of by glasses. Now when I work with my eye
charts and, as I begin to read indoors again, I know how to clear my
vision and transform gray into black and white and how to bring into
sharp focus any blur. And my recovery of perfect imagination has only
just begun! I really did not expect such fast improvement from Bates
Method, but here I am reading without glasses and relearning to see
with my imagination.

Funny thing the other day, a glasses-wearing photographer told me it
is not possible that my near-vision recovery could be really
happening. I asked him if he meant that for twelve years, even when my
glasses weren't on my nose, I was only imagining I had lost my near-
vision?  "Yes," he said, "it's all in your imagination."  haha!
"That's exactly right," I told him, "and that's why the Bates Method
works!"  "This is all very interesting," he replied, "but I've got to
run.""
Zetsu - 30 Sep 2007 11:47 GMT
http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,520.msg2391.html#msg2391
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 15:33 GMT
> In article <1191124823.485851.126...@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> --
> ~RT

Well,
It worked for me just for now.

They had theory that it is lens , that loosing flexibilyty.
If it is lens nothing could be done.
But new MRI research does not confirm the changes in the
lens mechanical properties.\:

"While some studies of the isolated lens have implicated mechanical
changes
in lens material as a causal factor in presbyopia development, it has
frequently
been noted that these studies fail to account for the early onset of
accommodative
loss and suffer from significant post mortem tissue changes, the
application of
non-physiological forces, and inappropriate statistical treatment of
the data; when
adequate statistical analysis is performed, no change in lens
mechanical properties
is found until after age 70."

then in the same article:

"Additionally, any mechanical changes in the lens that may occur
with age could be a result, not a cause, of presbyopia; it has
long been theorized that a certain amount of accommodative
lens movement is needed to prevent biochemical degradation of t
he lens material."

http://www.eyeworld.org/article.php?sid=4004

It destroys little bit the old theory

What you wrote is extremely  interesting:

"I find my "need" for readers is not
> consistent day to day or even week to week. I think that's how it always
> starts"
"
That supports  that it is not a lens. If it were the lens You would
not have that
fluctuations

.But even Otis rather sceptical about prevention of that

just try to think what is different when you can and can not read
clearly.
Try to think about that weeks.

It is very interesting fro me too.

What should been changed ?

When i went back to very fine print I could not
really read it, But I knew that for two month nothing
could change i just start read badly, then in 20-30 min I forgot
about it, In the couple of ours I just cougt
myself that I am just fine, just "roll back"

It work for me. But what is the possibility that it will work
for anybody else ? Do not know.

Your vision is fine now
Just keep it like it is.
lena102938 - 30 Sep 2007 01:41 GMT
> otisbr...@pa.net wrote:
> >Dear Mike,

> is possible only BEFORE the minus less is used, which is not the case here.
> Why do you continue to steal threads for your purposes?  Do you think it's
> fair?  This thread is NOT about prevention, got it?

> Message posted viahttp://www.medkb.com

It is_about prevention.
After the minus "less" is used we can try to stop progression.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 29 Sep 2007 05:04 GMT
On Sep 24, 10:25 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:

> So my question is, why do I need more "minus" in order to see close up
> without my eyes getting tired?

hello.  i am not clear about a part of your story.  when you get the
extra minus, as you did previously when your Rx changed, did it make
you feel as though you were straining less when you are doing near
activities?  How nearsighted are you?  How comfortable is it when you
work at your computer with your glasses off entirely?
Dan Abel - 29 Sep 2007 05:16 GMT
> On Sep 24, 10:25 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> activities?  How nearsighted are you?  How comfortable is it when you
> work at your computer with your glasses off entirely?

Doesn't make sense to me, either, although it happened to me also, and
that made more sense.  As my eyes got more myopic, I needed more and
more minus to read "close", where "close" means a comfortable reading
distance.  My farthest distance I could see clearly without correction
was about 1 1/4 inches.  Of course, I needed even more minus to see far.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 29 Sep 2007 11:41 GMT
> In article <1191038669.340219.44...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> distance.  My farthest distance I could see clearly without correction
> was about 1 1/4 inches.  Of course, I needed even more minus to see far.

well, he certainly could have convergence insufficiency, a binocular
alignment problem.  if so, then minus lenses at near would cause him
to need to accommodate which would recruit accommodative convergence
that might help him maintain binocularity.  i believe that's what Dr.
L was suggesting.  but he never really indicated that he got relief
from his strain with minus lenses, and if that was the problem then he
would also get even more strain at near when he removed his glasses
and further reduced his accommodative effort.  I am just looking for
clarification.
a06812@gmail.com - 01 Oct 2007 13:38 GMT
On 29 Sep, 12:41, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:

> > In article <1191038669.340219.44...@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> and further reduced his accommodative effort.  I am just looking for
> clarification.

Hi
Yes, that's correct. Extra minus seemed to make it easier to read
close. Having said that, this time I tried doing close work without
glasses at all (I'm somewhere between 2.50 and 3.50 sph with up to
1.50 cyl). Although a bit blurry at first, I got used to using the
computer at home without glasses as long as the time wasn't excessive
(although I used them while on a computer at work). However, I can
tell that my myopia has progressed. For the last couple of months I
have tried wearing my glasses all the time but again I notice more
progression with my myopia. Several years ago my myopia seemed to
stabilise for a few years. At the time I thought that I was still
doing loads of near work then (and with glasses on too) but perhaps it
was a bit less than now.

Testing my convergence now with a pen I would say it is not perfect,
but it can't be terrible - I can bring the pen to about 2 inches from
my nose before I see 2 after a couple of days practice. But I am prone
to convergence problems, with opticians telling me to do the exercise
because it's hard to get a correct prescription sometimes. On the
other hand, I don't think my divergence is good either. My eyes want
to cross when I try divergence exercises or stereo images.

As for the Bates method, I wish it did work, but I've seen no real
evidence that it does. I think Bates shot himself in the foot by
saying that his method cures all eye problems (too good to be true),
suggesting looking at the sun (dangerous and cut from newer editions
of the book) and making some claims which have been ruled out
conclusively by modern science. That said, I don't think we should
dismiss entirely the method in principle. Current medical opinion
doesn't have all the answers either and there is some evidence to
suggest that a healthy eye can be made to change by adding a lens in
front of it.

Thanks
Zetsu - 01 Oct 2007 13:49 GMT
What are you talking about, the only thing which has made clear is
that you knows nothing of the Bates System, which is not associated
with the use of lens that is all quackery and nonsense, the method
does not use any artificial means apart from the burning glass which
is used to focus the rays of the sun upon the eye. Also he did not
shot himself in the foot by any means, he made bold statements but
that was to slap the ophthalmology profession out of its slumber and
wake up from all the wrong superstitions.  The newer edition of the
book cut out the 'looking at the sun' part, but that was not done by
the doctor himself, but by other idiots who feared the light and wear
still very deep in their slumber, had not yet waken up. The statement
Bates wrote in the original book was that to look at the sun when one
has perfect sight never harms the eye and that is not at all dangerous.
Zetsu - 01 Oct 2007 13:50 GMT
And yes, you can cure yourself from the so called inevitable diseases
of sight, by rest methods.
Neil Brooks - 05 Oct 2007 04:04 GMT
On Oct 1, 5:38 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:

> As for the Bates method, I wish it did work, but I've seen no real
> evidence that it does. I think Bates shot himself in the foot by
> saying that his method cures all eye problems (too good to be true),
> suggesting looking at the sun (dangerous and cut from newer editions
> of the book) and making some claims which have been ruled out
> conclusively by modern science.

Bright boy/girl.

> That said, I don't think we should
> dismiss entirely the method in principle. Current medical opinion
> doesn't have all the answers either

Pay STRONG heed, though to those who suggest that ... simply BECAUSE
"current medical opinion doesn't have all the answers," then ...
whatever cockamamie theory THEY have is, de facto, true.

It doesn't work that way.  That thinking hurts and kills people ...
every day.

> and there is some evidence to
> suggest that a healthy eye can be made to change by adding a lens in
> front of it.

I'd say the wisdom to glean from that fact is that you shouldn't PUT a
lens in front of a healthy eye ... at least if that eye is a part of a
PARTICULAR SPECIES of macaque (doesn't work in other species, or in
other kinds of primate, incidentally), and that -- if you MUST put a
lens in front of an eye that does NOT need it -- don't suture that
lens on the face.  Instead, use it when needed; don't use it when not.

Problem solved.  Clinical testing shows that.

> Thanks

No ... thank YOU :-)
otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Oct 2007 13:51 GMT
Dear Ed,

Subject:  Excessive claims by Bates.

Ed>  as for the Bates method, I wish it did work, but I've seen no
real
evidence that it does. I think Bates shot himself in the foot by
saying that his method cures all eye problems (too good to be true),

Otis> I agree.  But at least is "objection" should be understood.

suggesting looking at the sun (dangerous and cut from newer editions
of the book)

Otis> Agreed!

and making some claims which have been ruled out
conclusively by modern science.

Otis>  His statements were all over the "map".  His experiments
were very difficult to check or repeat.  In the sense of
fundamental science -- that situation has changed.

Ed> That said, I don't think we should
dismiss entirely the method in principle.

Otis>  Agreed.  I think that the people who "clear" their vision,
say from a -2 diopter OVER-PRESCRIPTION, are successful
when they check their own Snellen.  Depending on HOW
the eye was checked (in an office) the person MIGHT
find that he reads the 20/40 line (under DMV conditions).
If he gets his eyes "out of the books", or "off the computer",
he can experience a clearing to 20/30.  He then
goes and passes the DMV visual-acuity requirment.
Now if he does "Bates" he can credit bates as "successful".
But it depends on his own checking.

Current medical opinion
doesn't have all the answers either and there is some evidence to
suggest that a healthy eye can be made to change by adding a lens in
front of it.

Otis> That it correct.  If you place a -3 dipoter lens on the
young eye, it will change its refractive STATE by -2 diopter
in less than sex months.  But that is indeed pure science -- not
medicine.

Otis> I personally NEVER use the word "cure".  It is always
misleading.  Let the person look at the objective facts
himself -- and make his own decision and choice.

Second-opinion best,

Otis

On Oct 1, 8:38 am, a06...@gmail.com wrote:
> On 29 Sep, 12:41, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Zetsu - 05 Oct 2007 14:47 GMT
>in less than sex months

LOL Otis.... what kind of months are we taking about here?
Zetsu - 05 Oct 2007 14:50 GMT
Bates hasn't made any excessive claims, only it was that in order to
demonstrate just how wrong all the standard beliefs were, it was
needed that he 'shocked' people and stated the truths with the very
intention of waking people up from their stupidity. Looking at the
sun; that is not an excessive statement but a benefit to the sight if
you do it effortlessly and nicely.
Zetsu - 05 Oct 2007 14:51 GMT
>Pay STRONG heed, though to those who suggest that ... simply BECAUSE
>"current medical opinion doesn't have all the answers," then ...
>whatever cockamamie theory THEY have is, de facto, true.

Well I never said that, hmph.
Ms.Brainy - 05 Oct 2007 16:41 GMT
>>in less than sex months
>
>LOL Otis.... what kind of months are we taking about here?

Months and months of testes, I presume.

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MsBrainy

Zetsu - 05 Oct 2007 16:50 GMT
YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK YUCK!
 
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