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Medical Forum / General / Vision / July 2007

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A Take on the Pro-Bates Vs. OD Arguments

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Dr. Eulenberg - 18 Jul 2007 18:44 GMT
Dear Vision Research Forum,

I was notified about this discussion group by a patient whom I have
treated with the relaxation treatment system without the use of
glasses or surgery. I signed on to have a look, and I read many of the
consolidated transcripts dating back to 2003, where many 'pro-bates'
vs. the 'anti-bates'/ODs debating has taken place. I found the both
the adversarial tone as well as the general 'look down upon' attitude
towards the 'pro-bates' from the optometrists in the discussions very
discouraging, and would like to make a few comments in response.

I am a board certified ophthalmologist with specialty training in
diseases and surgery of the retina.  I had the opportunity to train
with Dr. Bates in May of 1919, and I have incorporated the great
doctor's central fixation treatment into my practice since that time.
I have been using it for patients with AMD who do not qualify for any
of the conventional therapies, for patients with RP, and for visual
field loss secondary to stroke. I am excited by the improvement I see
in the majority of patients. Most importantly, patients are happy with
the improvement they get. As a eye care specialist, I look for any
possible safe means of achieving improvement in vision for all
patients who are interested. Sometimes that is best accomplished with
surgery, sometimes with laser, sometimes with low vision aides,
sometimes through nutrition or lifestyle change, and sometimes with
central fixation (aka Dr. Bates's method)

When I first starting using the central fixation/relaxation treatment
for degenerative retinal diseases, many of my colleagues thought that
I was nuts. However, after they started to see improvement in their
own patients who had come to me on their own, usually after hearing
about another patient's positive experience, they started to change
their minds. I am now getting referrals from other ophthalmologists,
including retinal specialists, and internists in the area.

The fact that Western Medicine has not been able to determine the
mechanism by which central fixation and release of strain by
relaxation effects change in the body does not invalidate the bates
method. It has been used for many years with many different ocular-
medical conditions with undeniable success. It is routinely being used
in a number of different locations to control pain without the use of
anesthetic. The line between allopathic medicine and alternative forms
of therapy is becoming more blurred all the time. While I can
understand the skepticism engendered by the use of the bates method
for the treatment of eye disease (I suffered with that stumbling block
myself to begin with), I feel it is important to keep an open mind.
Without that, we are of much less benefit to our patients. It is
important to have an integrated approach to medical care, regardless
of the problem. There is not one universal answer for anything or
everyone. Each patient has to be approached as an individual. Though
this is certainly more time consuming, the benefit to patients is well
worth it.

So it has to be wondered - if this treatment is so effective, why is
it so difficult to 'prove' with objective science?

As stated previously in this discussion group, it is impossible to do
a double blind study for this particular mode of treatment. I am
presently sitting on 21 months of accumulated data on the patients I
have treated by central fixation therapy, and I am interested in
getting this information to the medical community at large, but to
date I have not found a way to achieve this. I have no vested interest
in what is causing the improvement I see in patients treated with the
Bates Method. If there is some way to prove that the central fixation
is responsible for the improvement, great. If it can be proved that it
is placebo effect, or the result of "healing hands," or mind body
control, that's okay too. As long as a patient ends up seeing better,
I'm all for it.  I try to determine a patient's expectation of central
fixation treatment before I decide whether or not to treat them. While
most patients get a modest improvement in vision in the case of MD,
and a modest increase in vision/ field of vision for RP, I have had
some patients achieve a four-line improvement in vision, which has
remained for more than a year. I should add that it is my opinion that
the ultimate solution for all the retinal degenerative diseases will
be through genetic engineering.  Doing something positive instead of
accepting impending blindness also helps one of the most prevalent
side effects of these retinal problems, namely depression. This, in
turn, has a beneficial effect on a patient's immune system.

Best to you all,

Dr. E.
Mike Tyner - 18 Jul 2007 19:31 GMT
<absolutelyinvincible@hotmail.com> wrote

> I was notified about this discussion group by a patient whom I have
> treated with the relaxation treatment system without the use of
> glasses or surgery. I signed on to have a look, and I read many of the
> consolidated transcripts dating back to 2003, where many 'pro-bates'
> vs. the 'anti-bates'/ODs debating has taken place.

If you're going to present an argument in a science newsgroup, it's best not
to make your false identity so obvious and contrived.

> I am a board certified ophthalmologist with specialty training in
> diseases and surgery of the retina.  I had the opportunity to train
> with Dr. Bates in May of 1919

Oops. There was no such thing as "board certification" in that field in
1919.

> and I have incorporated the great
> doctor's central fixation treatment into my practice since that time.

Impossible to believe.

> field loss secondary to stroke. I am excited by the improvement I see
> in the majority of patients.

It's possible that you do get excited but I doubt it has much to do with
treating stroke patients.

>Most importantly, patients are happy with
> the improvement they get.

As Dr. Bates said, some people will be impressed no matter what you do.

>As a eye care specialist, I look for any
> possible safe means of achieving improvement in vision for all
> patients who are interested. Sometimes that is best accomplished with
> surgery, sometimes with laser, sometimes with low vision aides,

You have to be at least 100 years old. Somehow I doubt you're doing much
surgery.

> When I first starting using the central fixation/relaxation treatment
> for degenerative retinal diseases, many of my colleagues thought that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> their minds. I am now getting referrals from other ophthalmologists,
> including retinal specialists, and internists in the area.

Please include your address so I can refer you a couple of tough cases. Not
interested? Big surprise.

> The fact that Western Medicine has not been able to determine the
> mechanism by which central fixation and release of strain by
> relaxation effects change in the body does not invalidate the bates
> method.

Nor does it validate the method. What's wrong with demonstrating efficacy?

>It has been used for many years with many different ocular-
> medical conditions with undeniable success.

"Undeniable" - is that the same as "unproven?"

>It is routinely being used
> in a number of different locations to control pain without the use of
> anesthetic.

Do please tell us where.

>The line between allopathic medicine and alternative forms
> of therapy is becoming more blurred all the time.

If it's blurry, I can suggest some simple relaxation exercises that will
clear things up.

>While I can
> understand the skepticism engendered by the use of the bates method
> for the treatment of eye disease (I suffered with that stumbling block
> myself to begin with), I feel it is important to keep an open mind.

That's what you feel. WE feel it is important to test treated and untreated
groups to look for efficacy. Y'know.. e..f..f..i..c..a..c..y - I'm sure you
know what that is.

> Without that, we are of much less benefit to our patients.

Without efficacy comparisons, you're a waste of time.

> important to have an integrated approach to medical care, regardless
> of the problem.

So you advocate "integrating" phrenology, peach pits, Santaria and magnetic
therapy?

> everyone. Each patient has to be approached as an individual. Though
> this is certainly more time consuming, the benefit to patients is well
> worth it.

Efficacy studies are time consuming, but the benefit to patients is well
worth it.

> As stated previously in this discussion group, it is impossible to do
> a double blind study for this particular mode of treatment.

So forget about "double blind." Just choose up 50 individuals to treat, and
50 other individuals with the same demographics and diagnosis that you do
NOT treat. When you get the numbers, report back to us.

> I am
> presently sitting on 21 months of accumulated data on the patients I
> have treated by central fixation therapy, and I am interested in
> getting this information to the medical community at large, but to
> date I have not found a way to achieve this.

Perhaps if you considered a control group?

>I have no vested interest
> in what is causing the improvement I see in patients treated with the
> Bates Method.

Since you are not who you claim to be, what interest DO you have?

> If there is some way to prove that the central fixation
> is responsible for the improvement, great.

It's called "Student's t-test". Perhaps you've come across it in your long
experience.

> If it can be proved that it
> is placebo effect, or the result of "healing hands," or mind body
> control, that's okay too. As long as a patient ends up seeing better,
> I'm all for it.

That's fine, but most of us don't want to promote placebo treatments. Why do
you?

> I try to determine a patient's expectation of central
> fixation treatment before I decide whether or not to treat them.

That's always important. Placebo can't work if there's no expectation.

> While
> most patients get a modest improvement in vision in the case of MD,

"Modest" = "none".

> and a modest increase in vision/ field of vision for RP, I have had
> some patients achieve a four-line improvement in vision, which has
> remained for more than a year.

Simply unbelievable.

> side effects of these retinal problems, namely depression. This, in
> turn, has a beneficial effect on a patient's immune system.

Central fixation must be good for something. Maybe depression is it.

-MT
MsBrainy - 18 Jul 2007 21:32 GMT
><absolutelyinvincible@hotmail.com> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>You have to be at least 100 years old. Somehow I doubt you're doing much
>surgery.

Mistake, Mike.  This doc must be at least 110 years old, and still kicking!

Signature

MsBrainy

DoctorRick - 19 Jul 2007 05:27 GMT
Interesting e-mail address you have "Dr. Eulenberg"

From: "Dr. Eulenberg" <absolutelyinvincible@hotmail.com>

I've seen that same e-mail address associated with about 8 or 10 other
names in this forum.

Not funny.  You are a little twerp.  Go away.
otisbrown@pa.net - 19 Jul 2007 16:36 GMT
Dear Vision Research Forum,

I was notified about this discussion group by a patient whom I have
treated with the relaxation treatment system without the use of
glasses or surgery. I signed on to have a look, and I read many of
the
consolidated transcripts dating back to 2003, where many 'pro-bates'
vs. the 'anti-bates'/ODs debating has taken place. I found the both
the adversarial tone as well as the general 'look down upon' attitude
towards the 'pro-bates' from the optometrists in the discussions very
discouraging, and would like to make a few comments in response.

================

Dear Dr. Eulenberg,

Your great nephew (presumed) Alex Eulenberg (tool up
the argument in college, and continued the second-opinion
argument with Dr. David B. Granet.

The result was as you guessed.  Each party thought they
were "right", and their was NO AGREEMENT ON ANYTHING
AT ALL.

Yet both parties are intelligent and wish a "solution".

When "debates" about scientific facts reach this
impass, then is it wise to understand them.

I think Alex had this debate from ca 1995 till it stopped,
and Alex set-up his i-see site, and Dr. Granet's
patient Neil Brooks took up the argument,
defending the traditional quick-fix of the minus lens
using every method he could think of.

On Jul 18, 9:44 am, "Dr. Eulenberg" <absolutelyinvinci...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear Vision Research Forum,
>
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
> Dr. E.
Neil Brooks - 19 Jul 2007 17:13 GMT
>Dear Vision Research Forum,

Who?  What??

Why would you re-post this utter bull$hit, from
"absolutelyimpotent@hotmail.com" again?

Off the meds again?

[sssssnip]
Scott Seidman - 19 Jul 2007 17:18 GMT
>>Dear Vision Research Forum,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> [sssssnip]

Yeah, over the years Otis seems to consistently want to elevate SMV to a
vision research forum.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Neil Brooks - 19 Jul 2007 17:24 GMT
>Yeah, over the years Otis seems to consistently want to elevate SMV to a
>vision research forum.

Which wouldn't necessarily be so bad ... IF he ever read,
acknowledged, or DID any actual research....
CatmanX - 22 Jul 2007 03:26 GMT
WTF, you are posting as a 100+ year old doctor now Cletis?

Stop your drivel, Bates is crap and does not work. His results were a
sham and not scientifically validated. Take his claim that women went
colour-blind when they put on clear lenses.

Go home and stick to your pedophilia.
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Jul 2007 03:34 GMT
Dear CatMan,

Subject: Your opinion of ophthalmologists.

CatMan> WTF do you want this crap for? No-one uses plus cyl - except
for some
stupid ophthals.

Otis> I know the qualifications of ophthamologists -- and
they are far superior to YOUR qualifications.  They carry
a lot more qualifications and medical authority than
you ever will.

Otis> But you express the same thing about
ANYONE who has an opinion that is different that your.

> WTF, you are posting as a 100+ year old doctor now Cletis?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Go home and stick to your pedophilia.
CatmanX - 22 Jul 2007 03:54 GMT
Hey Cletis,

I have 4 degrees and 2 fellowships. It is more than just about any
ophthal I know.

As far as writing scripts is concerned, I am the expert in this field
and will happily put myself up against any ophthal.

My point is that there is no ned to write a script in plus cyl form,
but there is a group of ophthals that insists on using plus cyl
notation, even though it is not used any more - understand????

It is sort of like a computer tech selling you a 286 computer, out of
date and useless - sort of like you Cletis.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 22 Jul 2007 04:31 GMT
On Jul 21, 10:34 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
blah blah blah

=======================

Catman > I have written more prescriptions so I know more about the
subject than you

Otis > I really like this book by Raphaelson. he wrote a book called
"the printers son" that I am going to recite to you every couple of
weeks.

Neil Brooks > well uncle scrotis, please answer the questions that I
have compiled on my website so we can critically evaluate your theory
in comparison to modern theories of myopia development

Otis > stirling colgate was a smart man who knew a lot about quantum
physics.  He said once that nearsightedness was caused by minus
lenses.  I know him and we are good friends.

PClarki > otis, since you believe accommodative strain is what causes
myopia to develop, please explain why it is that uncorrected hyperopes
do not become nearsighted, or at least less farsighted.

Otis >
(......................................................silence................................................................................)

PClarki > Otis, why do you keep avoiding direct answers to questions
and instead just tell anecdotal stories.  Show up proof of what you
say.  Goss et al. conducted a study where children were deliberately
over-minused and they did not develop stair-step myopia like you say
they should.  How can you explain that?

Otis > the dynamic eye is a fundamental truth.  you believe in a box
camera static eye.  you say that the eye never changes to any external
stimuli.  Galileo was mistreated and no one believed him.  I am just
like Galileo--  thats just how I picture myself.

MT > Otis, can't you answer questions directly?  Please explain why
uncorrected myopes do not become less myopic and instead oftentimes
become even more myopic.

Otis > Keith used "the plus" and was able to avoid a sorrowful life
suffering from the dreadful myopia disease.  when you become myopic
and the eye doctor gives you a quick fix minus lens, your vision will
get worse and worse until your retina detaches.

Revival > am I smarter than Otis, or just as dumb?

Ms Brainy > frankly neither one of you is worth the powder to blow
your a.ses up with.

Revival > are you being subtly sarcastic again Ms. Brainy?
Ms.Brainy - 22 Jul 2007 05:09 GMT
On Jul 21, 8:31 pm, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jul 21, 10:34 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> blah blah blah
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
> Revival > are you being subtly sarcastic again Ms. Brainy?

Thanks for the laugh.  I needed it.

Did you know that laughter is good for your health and helps reducing
stress (or strain, if you wish)?  As such, laughter is the best cure
for myopia.

Moreover, the shape of your eyeballs changes as you laugh and thus
your refractive error is reduced.  If you laugh often and for long
periods, your eyeballs will accommodate and flatten, and the infamous
elongated shape will permanently disappear.

So forget the plus lens, forget relaxation eye exercise and forget all
the accommodation theories.  Laughter is the solution.

P/ S.  Actually laughter is the real reason why I signed up to this
NG.  There is just too much funny stuff here.  I think it will
eventually cause my IOL to accommodate and my macular pucker to
miraculously dissolve itself.  As long as Otis and Quasimodo are here,
I know that I can laugh all the way my appointment with the majority
opinion optometrist.
 
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