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Medical Forum / General / Vision / July 2007

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Simon Dean - 03 Jul 2007 16:24 GMT
Just had my last appointment with a top guy at Birmingham Eye Hospital -
in relation to my "Page jumping out at me" when reading issue, words not
being on the page, and a sort of "hey, Im under cycloplegic drops" feeling.

After reviewing everything, he reckons everythings normal. My field of
vision, the optic nerves, etc etc, and although I have a few white spots
on my MRI, it's nothing sinister and I don't have to worry about MS and
it was irresponsible of my GP to tell me about demyleination.

Unfortunately, he has no further ideas.

The monocular vertical diplopia he says is unexplainable, it's usually
caused by something happening in the back of the brain when it's
processing images, though what it is, no one knows. I just sat there
staring at the bright blue light on his computer saying look, I can two
lights now! It's better with two eyes, but not as sharp.

He feels that I actually have some kind of light sensitivity and
mentioned Comfort 41 lenses. He does not believe that getting another
MRI done in a years time would be beneficial, but he will ask for one if
I want.

I kind of agree with him.

But at the same time, if there's a chance, now that it's been mentioned
- I am hyper sensitive - what if an MRI in years time does actually
confirm that something nasty is going on?

Thoughts? Would it be worth pushing for the MRI?

Something tells me I'll go crazy if I dont.... I mean, Im probably too
analytical for my own good, so start noticing any little abnormality.
Like, just above, when I typed forth instead of worth - and that's not a
slip of the fingers. Or when I wrote Sometimes instead of Something.

He did say Im so visually perceptive it's a shame Im not an artist. I
just smiled and said thanks, but unfortunately my hands shake too much
when trying to do anything fine - YOU SEE! There's something else to add
to my indistinct list. Or the times I've noticed myself walking into the
side of the door frame instead of through the door.

I will go crazy.

Cya
Simon
RT - 03 Jul 2007 18:47 GMT
> Thoughts? Would it be worth pushing for the MRI?
>
> Something tells me I'll go crazy if I dont.... I mean, Im probably too
> analytical for my own good, so start noticing any little abnormality.
> Like, just above, when I typed forth instead of worth - and that's not a
> slip of the fingers. Or when I wrote Sometimes instead of Something.

My opinion, for what it's worth

I have MS and the first place affected was my vision. I first noticed n
1994 that the sun reflecting off objects, like grass, looked
different--somehow shinier than usual. The shine popped out at me. After
a long process of going to opticians and being over-prescribed etc. etc.
I made it to a neurologist, an ophthalmologist and a
neuro-ophthalmologist because I started to lose my central vision.
Everything in the center of my vision appeared gray--I could only see in
the peripheries. The gray center got larger and larger until I was
almost blind. I was diagnosed with optic neuritis, even though my optic
nerve wasn't visibly swollen. I had an MRI done at the time, it showed
no abnormalities. I had big areas of empty in my visual fields tests,
esp. when I first came into the office. I failed that other test with
the little ballerinas and beach balls in a 3D box (what was that???) and
my evoked potentials showed abnormalities. I also had color perception
problems with the color red. The optic neuritis resolved itself without
any intervention after about 4 months and has come back twice since. At
the time, I was told that I had a 10% chance of developing MS, but that
it was really unlikely. Besides optic neuritis, I was diagnosed with
Uthoff's Phenomenon, which I still suffer from when over heated--or even
after moderate exercise like walking to the store.My vision becomes
somewhat blurry and contrast is affected, as if I'm seeing twilight.
Right now it only affects my right eye. I was RXed with MS in 2001. I
had lesions on my spine. I took MS medications only for a few years but
I stopped due to the side effects. My most recent MRIs show improvements
and lesions completely healing in some cases even though I haven't taken
the standard MS meds in about 4 years.

My first question to you is--what would you do if something was "found"
on your MRI?

We have all this advanced diagnostic abilities now and doctors are so
quick to offer medications now (ie. I've been told that if MS meds
existed in 1994 when I had my first symptoms I would have been
prescribed them even before an MS diagnosis in order to ward off my
first big relapse which came 7 years later--all that makes me think of
is the 7 years of side effect hell I would have undergone with no
guarantee of 1. developing MS or 2. preventing any relapses). Because of
this diagnostic ability today, many things are "found" that are not
causing symptoms, yet patients and doctors lock onto them and then feel
obliged to "treat" them. Or alternatively, as so often happens, a person
gets labeled as their disease and then everything that happens to them
becomes a symptom of the disease and may not be treated correctly. For
example, numbness in my hand is dismissed as an MS symptom rather than
the doctor looking into a pinched nerve or a blood clot, carpel tunnel
or something else. Unfortunately MS doesn't preclude having other
diseases (too bad--don't you think MS sufferers should at least be
exempt from cancer?)

So, basically the information an MRI can provide works both ways. You
need to ask yourself why you need it done, and if something was found,
what would you do about it? Are you prepared to "treat" something that
you may not have or doesn't actually cause symptoms?  Because, trust me,
sometimes the cure IS worse than the disease.

BTW: Demyleination isn't only a symptom of MS but can happen with other
conditions as well. Furthermore, with regards to MS, there are  other
markers, such as spinal taps etc. that would pinpoint an MS diagnosis,
not simply brain lesions alone. MS is a diagnosis reached after
everything else is ruled out.

Signature

~RT

Simon Dean - 03 Jul 2007 19:37 GMT
>> Thoughts? Would it be worth pushing for the MRI?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> My opinion, for what it's worth

I've just read it all.... What a load of crap... :-)

Nah, it's great. You've even answered one of the things I was thinking.

Im in no way trying to suggest I have MS, or even wishing for it, but,
to me there would be a great thing in having a diagnosis of "something".
To me, it would be closure.

It's a difficult thing for me to talk about, because any of my symptoms
are probably so non-descript and pale in significance compared to anyone
who has been diagnosed with MS. But I do have a tendency to believe that
I am unusually sensitive and pick up on anomalies and want an answer. Im
still seeking a referral to an ENT specialist to find out why after six
years, my throat is still dry and my sinuses are still congested.

> I have MS and the first place affected was my vision. I first noticed
> n 1994 that the sun reflecting off objects, like grass, looked
> different--somehow shinier than usual.

Some people can read that, and draw parallels in anything. If I wanted I
could read that and think "vision first", that's common with me!

Hopefully I don't think like that. I experience something, and look to
medical science to explain it. Just a shame someone mentioned
demylination - then I start thinking, OK, vision, sometimes my words
mess up, sometimes I bump into things while walking, drop things Im
carrying, and I already have another autoimmune condition called
hypothyroidism.

But then the rationalist in me says OK, I've never dropped a pint,
everybody muddles their words up, and so what I bump into things, I
busted my knee up, maybe Im just getting used to walking again - I can
drive fine.

Still there's something at the back of mind thinking, am I just being
too sensitive? Is there something lurking there? How can I make sure if
there is something there, then I can be on top of it?

By the way, my vision when Im outside, things appear more washed out and
greyish - a pair of sunglasses brings everything back to life. so for
me, my vision. It's duller but brighter.

> The shine popped out at me. After a long process of going to
> opticians and being over-prescribed etc. etc. I made it to a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> visibly swollen. I had an MRI done at the time, it showed no
> abnormalities.

So an MRI with no issues doesn't indicate you don't have it, and even if
there are abnormalities, doesn't indicate you do. Just symptoms then?

Did your MRI show any white spots? I think I had about ten dots
spattered through my brain. Doc reckoned it could be some blood vessels
and gave a fancy name for it.

> I had big areas of empty in my visual fields tests, esp. when I first
> came into the office. I failed that other test with the little
> ballerinas and beach balls in a 3D box (what was that???) and my
> evoked potentials showed abnormalities.

(Note to self: there can be many vision issues with MS can't there?)

> I also had color perception problems with the color red. The optic
> neuritis resolved itself without any intervention after about 4
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> My first question to you is--what would you do if something was
> "found" on your MRI?

I'll tell you my first answer... jump for joy. My second answer,
probably nothing, unless someone gave me a definitive answer, then I'd
probably say "Ok, good, something we can work on".

My answer now? Not sure, I have just read what you say further on about
being labelled as your disease and anything that happens is a symptom of
that.

> We have all this advanced diagnostic abilities now and doctors are so
>  quick to offer medications now (ie. I've been told that if MS meds
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> that are not causing symptoms, yet patients and doctors lock onto
> them and then feel obliged to "treat" them.

I hope Im not like that. All I know is how Im feeling, what my reactions
are, and what I do, then look towards medical science to try and explain
it. Trouble is, most of what I have is either, unexplainable, or the
answer I have didn't actually explain the situation. Like sometimes,
when i don't take my thyroxine, I feel more alert.

Seems an odd thing to do, to treat someone for MS when they havent been
given a diagnosis - just in case.

Thing is did they know you had it and were just being kind, or were they
just unsure? And given how reliable everything is, how can you be sure
you actually even have it now?

I guess our whole society is geared more towards preventative medicine.
Unfortunately that can't really work can it, unless you have some idea
of just what you're supposed to be preventing?

(Note to group: I can sense my politicalness rearing up, and I'll start
being unkind to various people, so Im quitting there)

> Or alternatively, as so often happens, a person gets labeled as their
> disease and then everything that happens to them becomes a symptom of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> diseases (too bad--don't you think MS sufferers should at least be
> exempt from cancer?)

This is the bit of your post that is so true. It must be awful for you
to fight the doctors at every stage. And I think I have it bad!

How can not wanting this though, be reconciled with wanting to be on top
of it?

> So, basically the information an MRI can provide works both ways. You
>  need to ask yourself why you need it done, and if something was
> found, what would you do about it? Are you prepared to "treat"
> something that you may not have or doesn't actually cause symptoms?
> Because, trust me, sometimes the cure IS worse than the disease.

I think I'd like to make sure Im on top of it. I think that's all. I
mean, I've had one MRI, I'd like maybe to keep it in check, just see
what's happening over the next couple of years so that if I did have
more symptoms, I hope it would be fairly easy to get a referral from my doc.

I get the feeling that if I was to "break the cycle" there, but then
developed symptoms in four, five years time or something, that it would
be immensely difficult to get anyone to listen.

Cheers
Simon
RT - 04 Jul 2007 00:35 GMT
> I've just read it all.... What a load of crap... :-)

Why thanks! :)

> Im in no way trying to suggest I have MS, or even wishing for it, but,
> to me there would be a great thing in having a diagnosis of "something".
> To me, it would be closure.

I completely understand that sentiment. I went through years until I was
diagnosed. It certainly helped to explain many things I had been
experiencing and helped to justify to others that I HAD something when I
was afraid that it was all in my head. It was a relief at first.  But,
as I mention below, it can also become a catch all for anything that's
wrong. I have spent almost as many years trying to prove I don't have MS
(unfortunately the tests always come back positive).

> How can not wanting this though, be reconciled with wanting to be on top
> of it?

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I may not be following the
present "conventional" method (that has really only been around for a
decade--that's how long MS medications have been FDA approved), but I
feel that I am on top of it. In fact I was entered in a study for people
with MS whose MRIs show improvement (ie. lesions getting smaller or
disappearing). I see an acupuncturist regularly, watch my diet and
exercise. I have learned to cope around my symptoms--which are mostly
visual and fatigue. I don't take medications. I do have an MRI every
year or so (that was the deal I made with my doctor whose job it is to
prescribe the most advanced medications available.) Others may chose to
follow the conventional protocol. That's each person's prerogative and
everyone has to do what they feel is right for them. There is no single
approach, I believe.

> I think I'd like to make sure Im on top of it. I think that's all. I
> mean, I've had one MRI, I'd like maybe to keep it in check, just see
> what's happening over the next couple of years so that if I did have
> more symptoms, I hope it would be fairly easy to get a referral from my doc.

It really depends on your symptoms. An MRI is a photograph, it doesn't
spit out a diagnosis. Sometimes there are no physical abnormalities to
explain symptoms. Sometimes the more we worry about something being
wrong, like seeing white spots on an MRI, the more likely we are to
experience adverse symptoms and/or feel sick. If you have insurance or
if you can afford to pay for MRIs every year, they are not going to
physically harm you--but on the other hand focusing on the scans may be
deflecting your attention from what's really going on and addressing the
true cause.

> I get the feeling that if I was to "break the cycle" there, but then
> developed symptoms in four, five years time or something, that it would
> be immensely difficult to get anyone to listen.

It is really hard not to worry about what other people think of you,
including (especially?) doctors, but you really have to do what is best
for yourself in consultation with a doctor you trust. Have you ever kept
a journal of your symptoms and when they happen? Why do you think a
particular symptom may be happening at a particular time?

Sometimes there are emotional things we don't want to deal with and our
bodies make us feel sick or in pain so we concentrate on those symptoms
instead. That doesn't mean that those symptoms aren't real, that there
aren't things that are physically wrong like disturbed vision or pain,
but just that our minds are incredibly clever in keeping us focused on
our bodies when it is our psyches that need healing :) Those kinds of
chronic disturbances cannot be explained with an MRI scan.

Best of luck to you. You'll figure it out and make the right decision
for yourself.

Signature

~RT

Mike Tyner - 04 Jul 2007 23:02 GMT
> The monocular vertical diplopia he says is unexplainable, it's usually
> caused by something happening in the back of the brain when it's
> processing images, though what it is, no one knows.

I thought yours disappeared with a pinhole? If it disappears thru a pinhole,
it's optical, not neurological.

Corneal diplopia disappears with a gas-perm contact, lenticular does not.

-MT
Simon Dean - 05 Jul 2007 07:12 GMT
>> The monocular vertical diplopia he says is unexplainable, it's usually
>> caused by something happening in the back of the brain when it's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Corneal diplopia disappears with a gas-perm contact, lenticular does not.

This worries me now. I've never tried pinholes, and as you say,
monocular diplopia can usually be explained by ocular abberations? The
fact he's talking about stuff happening in the back of the brain makes
me wonder if he really suspects that my vision issues are neurological -
but that he just doesn't know what they are.

Cya
Simon
Mike Tyner - 05 Jul 2007 11:50 GMT
> This worries me now. I've never tried pinholes, and as you say, monocular
> diplopia can usually be explained by ocular abberations?

Yes. If you're younger, it's usually corneal and if it's acquired after 50,
it's probably lenticular.

> fact he's talking about stuff happening in the back of the brain makes me
> wonder if he really suspects that my vision issues are neurological - but
> that he just doesn't know what they are.

Well you've described a couple of symptoms that are difficult to explain
optically (text jumps out, every ripple more pronounced) but I'm pretty sure
the diplopia is more mundane.

> eg, white credits on a black screen, or the green dots on a "volume
> control" of a tv, a a small bright power led on a computer or similar.
> That to me is when it's noticable.

Corneal diplopia should be more noticeable in dim light with hi-contrast,
bright targets on a dim background.

So, have you made a pinhole and tried it yet?

-MT
Simon Dean - 05 Jul 2007 19:20 GMT
>> This worries me now. I've never tried pinholes, and as you say, monocular
>> diplopia can usually be explained by ocular abberations?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> So, have you made a pinhole and tried it yet?

F'in A. Give that man a star. Pinhole, though difficult to see through,
seems to work quite well.

Staring at an LED on my computer, it goes away in bright light, comes
back when the lights are off, looks fine through a pinhole.

Sooo.... Corneal Diplopia though, isn't astigmatism though and you don't
fix it with glasses? I'll have to look at what happens when looking
through a pair of sunglsses.

I am obviously wondering now about whether any of this could be
translated to my previous issue, of black text on white paper. Could the
white paper be blurry and ghosting (over the text) instead of the text
blurring? Will the LCD monitor be kicking out so much light and the
contrast so great compared to paper, that we have a "light on gets rid
of corneal diplopia" situation?

Cheers
Simon
Dave Bell - 05 Jul 2007 19:53 GMT
> > Corneal diplopia should be more noticeable in dim light with hi-contrast,
> > bright targets on a dim background.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> fix it with glasses? I'll have to look at what happens when looking
> through a pair of sunglsses.

As I have used a pinhole, the trick is to move it around, watchign for an
abrupt change in the image you see. If you have a crease or other defect
in the cornea, the pinhole should cause a jump, from the normal, main
position of the LED or text to the displaced position, as you cross the
defect.

Dave
Mike Tyner - 05 Jul 2007 20:30 GMT
> As I have used a pinhole, the trick is to move it around, watchign for an
> abrupt change in the image you see. If you have a crease or other defect
> in the cornea, the pinhole should cause a jump, from the normal, main
> position of the LED or text to the displaced position, as you cross the
> defect.

Defects that "jump" are usually lenticular. Corneal variations are smooth,
lenticular variations are often discontinuous.

-MT
Mike Tyner - 05 Jul 2007 20:28 GMT
> Sooo.... Corneal Diplopia though, isn't astigmatism though

Technically it is astigmatism, literally "lack of a point".

But classic "astigmatism" assumes just two major meridians ("football"
shape) so glasses are limited to a best approximation of the real surface.

Use Google to search (images) on "corneal topography" and you'll see that
the normal corneal surface is much more complex than a football. Two areas
of cornea will have different curvature, but more importantly they may not
be exactly "co-axial". If they aren't coaxial, their images form in slightly
different places, eg diplopia.

> I am obviously wondering now about whether any of this could be translated
> to my previous issue, of black text on white paper. Could the white paper
> be blurry and ghosting (over the text) instead of the text blurring? Will
> the LCD monitor be kicking out so much light and the contrast so great
> compared to paper, that we have a "light on gets rid of corneal diplopia"
> situation?

Very possible. It the pinhole eliminates it, bingo.

If so, then brighter room lights are about the only home remedy. Gas perm
contacts might work exceedingly well. Low-dose pilocarpine (or Alphagan-P)
are sometimes used to stimulate miosis.

-MT
Simon Dean - 05 Jul 2007 07:14 GMT
>> The monocular vertical diplopia he says is unexplainable, it's usually
>> caused by something happening in the back of the brain when it's
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Corneal diplopia disappears with a gas-perm contact, lenticular does not.

Incidentally, any vertical monocular diplopia I have, is usally when im
looking at a bright light on a dark background.

eg, white credits on a black screen, or the green dots on a "volume
control" of a tv, a a small bright power led on a computer or similar.
That to me is when it's noticable.

Cya
Simon
 
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