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Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2007

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Ms.Brainy - 05 Jun 2007 05:44 GMT
Dear P.Clar,

Since Otis apparently missed your repeated questions to him, I took
the liberty to answer for him.  I hope this will stop all your further
repetitions.

1.  What is your professional training, or professional experience,
that allows you to give people advise on how to manage their vision
and eyecare problems?  What Optometry, Ophthalmology, or Optics
training and/or experience do you have?

Answer:  I am an engineer and as such I understand the design and
mechanism of the fundamental monkey's eye better than any optometrist
or ophthalmologist.

2.  Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and
are therefore walking around with net plus refractive power in their
eye 24/7, do not become less myopic.  This is optically the same as
wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't revert to
emmetropia?  Why is it that they oftentimes become even more myopic?
Your "theory" predicts the opposite!

Answer:  You ask too many questions at once and I get confused.  I
never advocated prevention by not wearing any lenses, as you suggest.
I am the "plus man".  The fact that their myopia continues to increase
proves my point:  They need the plus and cannot expect improvement or
even prevention by wearing nothing.

3.  How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do
not become more myopic (=less hyperopic) over time?  They are
straining to see, in exactly the same way that others do who get very
close to their reading material.  And they do it 24/7.  And it's
optically the same as wearing glasses that are overminused.  Your
theory predicts their refraction should change, but it doesn't.
Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40.  How can
that be Otis?  Unless your theory is wrong!

Answer:  I do not treat hyperopia, which is not a scientific disorder
of the fundamental state of the dynamic eye.

4.  How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom
Physiol Opt. Feb; 61(2):85-93, 1984) children who were intentionally
overminused did not become myopic any more than children who wore
their proper spectacle prescription?  Your "theory" predicts the
opposite!  You claim that the "wretched minus" would cause them to
plunge deeper into the despair of myopia.  Yet it doesn't seem to
work
that way.  Why?

Answer:  The minus is bad bad bad for the natural eye of the monkey,
always bad.  These monkeys are doomed to life of misery.  The minus
lens should be banned by the FDA, except for passing the driving test
or watching porno movies.

5.  How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave
them slightly myopic even with their glasses on, they continued to
develop myopia, and actually at an accelerated rate (Chung K, Mohidin
N, O'Leary DJ. Undercorrection of myopia enhances rather than
inhibits
myopia progression. Vision Res. 2002, 42: 2555-9.)  Your "theory"
predicts the opposite!  Since they would be walking around 24/7 with
a
net plus refractive error, shouldn't they get better?  Or at least
not
worse-- if your theory were correct!

Answer:  Since they wear the minus their myopia increases -½ D every
year.  If you understood the STATE of the dynamic natural eye you
wouldn't ask such silly questions.  Or maybe it's the fundamental eye,
I need to check it out.

6.  How come the Hong Kong Progressive Lens Myopia Control Study
(Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science. 2002;43:2852-2858)
concluded that using bifocal lenses on children has no effect on
myopia progression?  Your "theory" predicts the opposite!  Why is it
that science just keeps proving you wrong time and time again?

Answer:  The rate of myopia among school monkeys and chicken in Honk
Kong is approaching 90%, which proves my purely scientific point:
They must start using the plus, the sooner the better.

P.Clar, I hope you are satisfied and please stop bugging me with more
questions.  I have needy patients to take care of and have no time for
you and the rest of your established crowd.  Now I must go wash my
hands because I discovered that germs can cause myopia in monkeys and
the establishment doesn't believe me, but you'll see that eventually I
shall prevail.

Best,

Otis, Engineer
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 05 Jun 2007 12:24 GMT
> Dear P.Clar,
>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Otis, Engineer

i like you Ms. Brainy.
Neil Brooks - 05 Jun 2007 14:42 GMT
>i like you Ms. Brainy.

Ditto.
michael toulch - 05 Jun 2007 14:39 GMT
> Dear P.Clar,
>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Otis, Engineer

pretty clear.
otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Jun 2007 18:02 GMT
Dear Brainy,

You are wonderful.

But please sign "Brainy", and not my name.

Also, I will post the "Printer's Son", which I judge is your
"attitude" and sets the true limit for scientific prevention of
a negative refractive STATE for the natural eye.

The publics "attitude" in fact defines the "limit" of
majority-opinion optometry.  It would be nice if you
understood THAT issue.

Further no one can do your "thinking" for you.

If you LOVE that minus lens in five minutes -- than
have at it.  It is certainly no skin off my nose.

Best,

Otis Brown

> Dear P.Clar,
>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Otis, Engineer
Neil Brooks - 05 Jun 2007 18:34 GMT
>Dear Brainy,
>
>You are wonderful.
>
>But please sign "Brainy", and not my name.

Your sense of humor is about on a par with your logic and rational
thinking: poor.

>Also, I will post the "Printer's Son",

Oh, God help us all.  Not that tired old thing again.  Why waste the
bandwidth, Uncle Otie?  Wouldn't it be MORE productive to answer my
(or PClark's) questions instead??

> which I judge is your
>"attitude" and sets the true limit for scientific prevention of
>a negative refractive STATE for the natural eye.

Lemme' see if I have this right: Ms. Brainy's "attitude" "sets the
true limit for scientific prevention of a negative refractive STATE
for the natural eye????"

You're flat-a$$ whacked, Otis.

>The publics "attitude" in fact defines the "limit" of
>majority-opinion optometry.  It would be nice if you
>understood THAT issue.

Maybe issues like .... why your niece, Joy Benson, who never wore the
minus, but DID wear the plus is A MYOPE WITH A RESTRICTED DRIVER'S
LICENSE ... actually "define the 'limit'."

>Further no one can do your "thinking" for you.

Least of all Otis.

>If you LOVE that minus lens in five minutes -- than
>have at it.  It is certainly no skin off my nose.

We've all seen your picture.  Please don't dwell on the details of
your face, Otis.  People have to eat.
Mike Tyner - 05 Jun 2007 19:06 GMT
> The publics "attitude" in fact defines the "limit" of
> majority-opinion optometry.  It would be nice if you
> understood THAT issue.

What would be nice is if you'd convince ophthalmologists, pediatricians and
academic vision scientists that your prevention works. Do that, and I
promise optometry will play along.

> If you LOVE that minus lens in five minutes -- than
> have at it.  It is certainly no skin off my nose.

I'm pretty sure Brainy is past the point of worrying that her glasses will
make her nearsighted.

I'm also pretty sure you don't understand anything I write.

-MT
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 05 Jun 2007 19:22 GMT
On Jun 5, 1:02 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Brainy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>
> > Otis, Engineer

since you are nearby and watching why not try to address the open
questions?  don't you see that by ignoring them you appear to be an
idiot and it does your point of view a disservice.  it makes you look
like you don't have a clue what's going on.
Jan - 05 Jun 2007 19:32 GMT
otisbrown@pa.net schreef:

> Also, I will post the "Printer's Son", which I judge is your
> "attitude" and sets the true limit for scientific prevention of
> a negative refractive STATE for the natural eye.

Not that old crab again Otis, in earlier days men are walking in front
of an automobile with a red flag, your lecture is as old.

Your second opinion crab is only based on your silly idea it should work.
Not proven scientifically and certainly not based on how myopia is build up.
Let's face it Otis, you, not having the knowledge and not working or
prescribing in this beautiful field called eyecare should keep your
mouth shut until you proof scientifically the majority of real eyecare
specialist are wrong.

Till then, oracle of Iblind.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam" (Marcus Porcius Cato)

Instead of "Carthaginem" feel free to read "the wrong assumption by Otis
how to prevent myopia "

Jan (normally Dutch spoken,
Jan - 05 Jun 2007 18:59 GMT
Ms.Brainy schreef:
> Dear P.Clar,
>
> Since Otis apparently missed your repeated questions to him, I took
> the liberty to answer for him.  I hope this will stop all your further
> repetitions.

Useless and just "corn on the mill" (Dutch expression) to Otis.

"Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam" (Marcus Porcius Cato)

Instead of "Carthaginem" feel free to read "the wrong assumption by Otis
how to prevent myopia "

Jan (normally Dutch spoken,
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2007 03:58 GMT
Re: Questions in 10 minutes.

Dear "Motivated" reader,

Subject: What I "wondered" about when I was young.

Re: Brainy's endless "questions".

I wondered why no OD would even DISCUSS plus prevention,
or Bates-prevention. Why was that?

Sorry to say, most people are either "dense", or
truly have no interest in clearing their vision
by:

1. Reading their own Snellen.

2. Having some faith in themselves to try prevention.

3. Are impressed by Brainy's "arguments".

I think you should take due caution about your eyes.
I know I would. I have suggested a "medical" exam
to look for MEDICAL issues. But if a -1 diopter
lens will clear your Snellen from 20/70 to 20/20, then
you do not have a medical problem.

I never had a "chance". I do not know what
my father would have done, but this is an
example of how "public ignorance" shuts down
ANY PREVENTION MINDED OD. It is this
"attitude" that prevents prevention.

This convinced me that NO OD CAN HELP US,
and my conclusion that if you truly want to
keep your distant vision clear -- you must
have the fortitude to do it yourself.

I do not think it as easy as Dr. Colgate said, but
I do think it is both wise and possible -- provided
you wise-up and have the motivation for it.

How any OD could help anyone (like "Brainy") with plus-prevention
is beyond me.

Here is Raphaelson's comment on the public's
expectation.

++++++++++++++

WHY ISN'T THE PREVENTATIVE APPROACH OFFERED?

With this type of scientific understanding of the eye's behavior, you
would think that the insightful and motivated optometrist or
ophthalmologist could introduce a practical and effective method of
solution. Dr. Jacob Raphaelson did exactly that in the following
example -- with the following result:

THE PRINTER'S SON

"It was the year 1904 that I met a mother at a social lodge meeting.
She told me about her son's trouble with his eyes in school. I gave
her my card and told her to bring him to my office and I would fit
him with a pair of spectacles.

"She said that she had no money at the time and that her husband was
a printer working in another city. She did not expect him home for
the next six weeks. I told her all this would not matter, that she
should bring the boy over and I would fit him with a pair of
spectacles. I told her that she could pay for them when her husband
returned home.

"She brought the boy in and I examined his eyes. I found that his
vision for distance was poor. It was less than 20/40. I made him a
pair of plus 1.00 diopter spectacles. She was to pay me when her
husband came back home.

"In about six weeks she came back and returned the glasses to me. She
stated that her husband was provoked with her for getting the
glasses. He had tried the boy's eyes with different prints, far and
near, and had found him to have perfect vision with his naked eyes.
In fact, she said, the boy could see even better without the glasses
than with them.

"I was surprised that the plus lens could produce recovery that
quickly. I could hardly believe this story. I persuaded the mother to
bring the boy back to let me check to see if he could really see well
with his naked eyes. She again brought the boy in and I checked his
vision. I found that the father was indeed right. The boy had good
eyes, with 20/20 vision and better.

"I was in a dilemma. I did not have the nerve to say anything to the
mother. I just let her go. How was I to prove that the boy had poor
vision before he received his glasses? And who would believe that
vision could be restored by just wearing a pair of plus 1.00 glasses
for a few weeks?

"My experience with the printer's son aroused my inborn tendency for
exploration. It gave me an incentive to try to do special work on
children's eyes and on vision restoration. It also enticed me to
investigate myopic (nearsighted) eyes because I was myself
nearsighted.

"On the other hand, this experience was a warning to be cautious in
doing such work. For selling spectacles to persons who, supposedly,
did not need them was almost a crime. And the fitting of glasses
without the advice or consent of a medical doctor to unhealthy or
diseased eyes, or even to an unhealthy person who might need or be
under medical attention, was, and is now, and encroachment on the
medical profession.

"To shield myself against possible enmity and involvement, I took the
following precautions: First, I quit using the title 'doctor' in any
form, in print or verbally. I was to be known as a spectacle fitter
and nothing more. Second, I charged a reasonable price for the
spectacles I sold but nothing extra for any special work or relief I
gave. I did not advertise about this special work. I just did it as a
matter of routine whenever or wherever I was given the opportunity.

"Thus in 1904 I became an independent researcher on the relationship
of the eye's behavior to spectacles, vision, and health. I have kept
it up, and will continue to do this work as long as I continue to
have the incentive and capability.

"Who would believe it? Who would believe that by just wearing a pair
of plus one (+1.00) glasses for a few weeks, that normal vision to
the naked eye could be restored to children whose eyes have a
negative focal state? This was true in 1904, and it is also true now,
in this decade of 1950." (It continues to be true in this decade of
1990 -- Otis Brown)

It is of course true that most people want to sit on their
keister and have someone do EVERYTHING for them,
including their THINKING.

But, Brainy, since you love the minus lens and the
impressive sharpness is produces -- then have at it.

But then never turn back, and never rue the consequences.

You can never help a person -- until the person first
wakes up to the need to help himself.

And that is truly the point of supporting Steve Leung at:

www.chinamyopia.org

as the preventive second-opinion.

Otis

++++++++++++++++

> Dear P.Clar,
>
[quoted text clipped - 87 lines]
>
> Otis, Engineer
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2007 04:13 GMT
Dear Brainy,

Subject:  Graphics of Dr. Raphaelson's thesis

Since you do not understand the "words" describing
the natural eye's behavior, when you place
a strong minus lens on it -- perhaps Soon's
"graphics" of stair-case myopia will improve
your comprehension of this issue.  See:

http://www.geocities.com/soonicansee/

But there is no help for your intellectual blindness,
even with your title of "Brainy".

Please enjoy this pleasant discussion of science,
scientific proof, and alternatives (before the minus)
like Bates, Plus, Raphaelson, and public ignorance.

Enjoy,

Otis
Ms.Brainy - 06 Jun 2007 04:54 GMT
On Jun 5, 8:13 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Brainy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Otis

Otis My Dear,

I have never been rude to you like others.  I never called you names.
I was always respectful and sweet like honey, but now you are leaving
me no choice.  I must say it :  YOU ARE DENSE, VERY DENSE!

I did NOT ask you those endless questions -- I ANSWERED them on your
behalf, because you would not do it yourself!

Actually I always made sure that my sarcasm remained so subtle that
despite the fact that everybody else could see it as sarcasm -- you
wouldn't.  This is because I am kind and sweet by nature.  Is this how
you thank me?  Is this your second opinion?

I was thinking of answering for you Neil Brooks' questions as well,
but now, realizing that you do not appreciate my effort to do the hard
work that you would not do yourself, I am not so sure you deserve my
help.

BTW Otis, Do you think that the plus can help my bad eye (currently
20/400, after a macular hole, retinal detachment and presently very
thick pre-surgery cataract)?  Should I seek a second opinion?  Would
you say that my eye is still a dynamic fundamental eye?

Best,

Brainy
Ms.Brainy - 06 Jun 2007 05:05 GMT
> Otis My Dear,
>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

You know what Otis?  I think your brain has a refractive error.
Nicolaas Hawkins - 06 Jun 2007 05:53 GMT
> You know what Otis?  I think your brain has a refractive error.

More like a fracture error

Signature

Nicolaas.

2007 Pricelessware CD now available.  600Mb of the best of the best in
Freeware.  E-Mail me for details.

... Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window.

William Horatio Bates - 06 Jun 2007 09:15 GMT
"can help my bad eye (currently 20/400, after a macular hole, retinal
detachment and presently very thick pre-surgery cataract)?  Should I
seek a second opinion?"

I have cured many relatives and friends under such conditions.

Nature is always willing to forgive the harm you have self inflicted
on your eyes. The mercy of Allah is without limits.
Itachi - 06 Jun 2007 09:21 GMT
"can help my bad eye (currently 20/400, after a macular hole, retinal
detachment and presently very thick pre-surgery cataract)?  Should I
seek a second opinion?"

Indeed, it is possible to cure a person in your current state.

Laugh at me, ridicule me, but at the end of the day, who is blind?
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2007 18:22 GMT
Dear Brainy,

Subject: Insulting me -- by "signing" my name to a statement
that I did not make -- and do not support.

If you wish to post YOUR hypothetical remarks to P.Clar, then
sign YOUR NAME!  If you had done THAT I would have
not responded:

Brainy>  P.Clar, I hope you are satisfied and please stop bugging me
with more
questions.  I have needy patients to take care of and have no time
for
you and the rest of your established crowd.  Now I must go wash my
hands because I discovered that germs can cause myopia in monkeys and
the establishment doesn't believe me, but you'll see that eventually
I
shall prevail.

Brainy> Best,

Brainy>  Otis, Engineer

Had you signed it this way,

Brainy (as I THINK Otis would have signed it),

then that would have been honest.

But while we are at it -- I think you do not understand
Raphaelson's remarks about the "Printer's Son".

The minus lens works like gang-busters.  It is effective,
produces very clear vision in 5 minutes, and perhaps
you, and everyone else LOVE that minus lens -- and
would only want to be treated in the superfical way
that Raphaelson HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO DO.

I only SUGGEST that a wise parent might want
something more intelligent.

But the response so far has indeed been
of the superfical mind.

If you wish to shoot your self in the
foot with an over-prescribed minus
for your self and your children -- the
do so.  It is no skin off my nose.

Otis

> On Jun 5, 8:13 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2007 18:26 GMT
On Jun 6, 10:22 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:

> If you wish to post YOUR hypothetical remarks to P.Clar, then
> sign YOUR NAME!  If you had done THAT I would have
> not responded:

Since you seem to be in the responding mood, how about taking a turn
at these relevant questions:

 http://www.nbeener.com/NDB_OSB_Qs.txt

> then that would have been honest.

What would you know about honesty??  You can't get through a single
POST without a bald-faced lie.

> But while we are at it -- I think you do not understand
> Raphaelson's remarks about the "Printer's Son".

Nobody does.
Mike Tyner - 06 Jun 2007 19:06 GMT
> But the response so far has indeed been
> of the superfical mind.

Our superficial minds want to see a t-test of your "prevention" technique.

Once you get around to publishing that, I'm sure all the ophthalmologists
will stop prescribing minus.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 07 Jun 2007 03:16 GMT
Sure, Mike, here are the t-tests you requested.

I assume you mean student's "t" for small samples,
and "z" for large sample Gaussian distributions.

Dr. Francis Young spent a lot if time collecting
these facts concerning the dynamic behavior
of the fundamental eye.

But you never understand that at all.
Ya get my drift, partner?

Otis

++++++++

    [The reference studies for the primates and Eskimos are at
     the end of this page.  **]

      FIRST-YEAR HONG KONG UNIVERSITY STUDENTS 87.5 % MYOPIC

o   Goh and Lam (Goh, W.S.  and Lam, C.S., "Changes in refractive
   trends and optical components of Hong Kong Chinese aged 19-39
   years," Ophthal.  Physiol.  Opt., 14:378-382, 1994) found that
   in 2000 first-year students at the University of Hong Kong,
   the prevalence of myopia was 87.5%.

              ******************

      MYOPIA PREVALENCE IS ALWAYS HIGHER THAN 92 PERCENT
            FOR TAIWAN MEDICAL STUDENTS

o   Lin et al (Lin, L.K., Shih, Y.F., Lee, Y.C., Hung, P.T., and
   Hou, P.K., " Changes in ocular refraction and its components
   among medical students - a 5-year longitudinal study", Optom.
   Vis.  Sci., 73:495-498, 1996) found that in a study of 345
   National Taiwan University medical students, the myopia
   prevalence increased from 92.8% to 95.8% over the five year
   period.

              ******************

        OPTOMETRY STUDENTS 72 PERCENT MYOPIC

o   Lam and Yap (Lam, C.S.  and Yap, M.  "Ocular dimensions and
   refraction in Chinese Orientals", Proc.  Int.  Soc.  Eye Res.,
   6:121, 1990) found that in a group of optometry students at
   The Hong Kong Polytechnic University, the prevalence of myopia
   was 75% in females and 69% in males.

              ******************

    70 PERCENT MYOPIC AT AGES 16 TO 17 YEARS OLD

o   Regarding the prevalence of myopia in Asian countries, Lam and
   Goh (Lam, C.S.  and Goh, W.S., "The incidence of refractive
   errors among schoolchildren in Hong Kong in relationship with
   the optical components", Clin.  Exp.  Optom., 74:97-103, 1991)
   found that in 383 school children from ages 6 to 17 years, the
   prevalence of myopia increased from 30% at ages 6-7 years, to
   70% at ages 16-17 years.

              ******************

                    December 6, 2000

By Liu Shao-hua
Staff reporter
Taipei Times

Subject:   Myopia Increases Among Children

    One of every five children in the first grade in Taiwan's
elementary schools is myopic (nearsighted).  The proportion of
myopics in this group has increased from 12.1 percent in 1995 to
20.4 percent this year, according to the results of a survey
released by the Department of Health yesterday.

    The results also show that 60.7 percent of sixth graders in
elementary schools, 80.7 percent of third graders in junior high
schools, and 84.2 percent of third graders in senior high schools
suffer from myopia.  In addition, the number of seriously myopic
children is also on the rise.  The proportion of seriously myopic
children among sixth graders in elementary schools has increased
from 2 percent five years ago to 2.4 percent this year.

    Serious myopia is defined as exceeding 600 degrees (6
diopters).  Anything over 25 degrees (0.25 diopters) is myopia.
Normal eyesight is zero degrees.

    "We appeal for reductions to children's work load in schools
and the amelioration of visual environments in daily life," said
Chen Tzay-jinn, director-general of the health promotion bureau,
under the health department.

    The survey was conducted by the department, in cooperation
with National Taiwan University and its hospital, and involved a
sample of 12,000 students from four million students between the
ages of 7 and 18 nationwide.  Myopia has been on the increase in
Taiwan ever since the first myopia survey in 1983.  The department
manages the survey every four or five years.

    The growth of nearsightedness among young children is thought
to result from learning to read very young and using computers
very young, Chen pointed out.

    Last year, the department and the Ministry of Education
delivered official documents to kindergartens nationwide demanding
that children not be taught to read or use computers too early.
"But many teachers and parents protested against this appeal,"
said the department officials.    "They questioned exactly what they
were permitted to teach if reading was not allowed."

    "We do hope that parents and teachers can heighten their
awareness of myopia and understand that early learning does not
guarantee students' performance in the future, but it does bear a
strong correlation to defects in vision," Chen said.  The
department also appealed for children under the age of 10 not to
be taught how to use computers.

    Senior high school students suffer the highest rates of
nearsightedness, at over 84 percent.  "It reached a plateau five
years ago and has not changed this year.  But their myopia has
become more serious," Chen said.  According to the survey, 20
percent of third graders in senior high schools are seriously
nearsighted.

    Many people thought operations could cure myopia.    "But the
superficial improvement of vision does not better the health of
the eye.  More importantly, it might reduce people's awareness of
other problems associated with nearsightedness, apart from visual
ones," said Lin Lung-kuang, ophthalmology professor at National
Taiwan University.  "Myopia cannot be cured.  We have to prevent
children from becoming nearsighted.  Don't let them use their
vision too early," Lin urged.

    Because of the public's lack of awareness of myopia, the
department estimated its prevalence would continue to grow.
"Singapore resembles Taiwan in many respects and the extent of its
myopia problem might serve as a warning for us," Chen said.

   __________________________________________________________

**   Below are the 5 sources of the statistics for the
    behavior of the natural primate and Eskimo eye.

1.  "Visual Refractive Errors of Wild and Laboratory Monkeys", Francis
   A.    Young, Pullman, Washington, E.E.N.T.  Digest, Volume
   27, Pages 55-71, August 1965

    Wild Primate eyes:

    N = 598 Eyes

    Mean = 0.63 Diopters

    Standard Deviation = 0.72 diopters

    What this means:

    68 percent have refractive states from -.1 diopters to +1.35
diopters

    96 percent will have refractive states from -0.8 diopters to
+2.07 diopters.

    "...Animals less than 12 years old with refractive errors
between +2.0 and -0.5 diopters, normal retina and no obvious
visual difficulties are likely to have 20/20 acuity at near and
far at better-than the 5 % level of confidence.

    Of some 26 rhesus monkeys within with in this range of
refractive errors ALL had 20/15 or 20/20 visual acuity.  Animals
with refractive errors greater-than +2.0 diopters may have 20/20
acuity at far but not at near.

    Animals with refractive errors which are more minus than -0.5
diopters will not have 20/20 acuity at far but may have it at
near."

   "...Thus individuals with 20/20 acuity may have refractive
errors ranging from 0 to +3 diopters."

    Francis A. Young

    *****************************************

2.  "Ocular Biometry of Eskimo Families", Francis A.  Young, George
    A.  Leary, Primate Research Center, Washington State
    University, Pullman, Washington, Diagnostica Ultrasonica
    in Ophthalmologia, Paris, Centre National d'Ophthalmologie
    des Quinze-vingts, 1973

    What is the range of refractive STATES of the natural human
eye -- that have not been profoundly "affected" by 12 to 16 years
in school?

    Data taken from:

    "The Transmission of Refractive Errors within Eskimo
Families", 1969

Francis Young
George Leary
William Baldwin
Donald West

    and

Roy Box
Eugene Harris
Curtis Johnson

    Refractive STATES from age 36 to 65:

    N = 143 Eskimos

    Mean = +1.8 Diopters average

    Sigma = 1.27 Diopters

    What this data tells us about the 20/20 eye -- using a normal
    distribution:

    68 percent are positive:

    +0.68 diopters to +3.15 diopters

    Or no myopia in that percentage.

    96 percent between these values:

    -0.6 diopters to +4.4 diopters

    It is possible to have 20/20 and a retinoscope measurement of
-0.6 diopters.

    The published measured values were from

    -1.95 diopters to +5.89 Diopters.

    There was one Eskimo with a refractive state greater than
-1.0 diopters.

    Or, 1/143 = 0.6 percent were significantly myopic.

    This result compares with the "educated" Eskimos (younger)
that show average myopia of -2.07 diopters, and 87 percent were
classed as myopic, with approximately 70 percent more myopic that
-1 diopters.

    Additional Remarks:

    These are the indications that the refractive STATE of the
natural eye simply follows its average visual environment -- as a
fundamental process.

    While we have certainly "changed" in our "habits" over the
last 200 years, to suggest that our eyes do not change with change
in average visual environment is simply a failure of concept.

    I certainly agree with the "intellectual" difficulties of
plus-prevention at the threshold.

    But, I believe that we must understand this issue as an
"engineering trade-off".

    By this I mean that a person who has a broad perspective on
these issues can wisely accept the need for systematic use of the
plus, and keep his visual acuity as always the required DMV test.

    Or, in other words, progress is only possible with change.
Those people who will attempt to stop change, will also prevent
progress.

    I would rather begin the use of the preventive-plus at a
refractive STATE of zero, or slightly negative, and keep my
distant vision in the positive range as per these Eskimo eyes --
than to develop stair case myopia from that long-term "near"
environment -- compounded by an excessively strong minus lens.

    Most people never "see" these statistics.

    But I think we should be made aware of them -- before a minus
lens is put on us.

    Many people have NO INTEREST in keeping their vision clear
(by their Snellen) for life.

    For that person -- these facts have no meaning.

    But if you wish to keep your distant vision, then an
understanding of these facts might help you formulate a preventive
plan with the plus.

    We can never know what any person might do.  That is not for
us to judge.

    These fact do not "prove" that the natural eye is dynamic
with respect to "environment" or a minus lens.

    The reason is that you do not have "numerical" control over
the average value of accommodation.

    Only when you place a -3 diopter lens on the eye (with the
accommodation system TRACKING that -3 diopter) can you finally
prove that the natural eye "follows" an applied minus lens.  That
is scientific proof.

    It takes a "wise" and motivated person (or pilot) to truly
"digest" this issue and take the necessary preventive actions.

    This is indeed an "Engineering trade-off".

          *******************************

3.  "Spectacle lenses alter eye growth and the refractive status
    of young monkeys" Li-Fang Hung, M.L.J.  Crawford & Earl L.
    Smith, Nature Medicine, Volume 1, Number 8, August 1995

    Refractive STATES of young, normal primate eyes:

    N = 22 Eyes

    Mean = + 4.3 diopters

    Standard Deviation = 1.3 diopters.

    What this means:

    68 percent of natural eyes will have refractive STATES from
+3 Diopters to +5.3 diopters

    96 percent will have refractive STATES between +1.7 to +6.9
Diopters.

Subject:  Analysis of refractive STATE change in a school
         environment -- after 8 years, from plus to minus as natural
         process.

    I am convinced that Jake Raphaelson was correct -- and
convinced that ONLY you can protect your own children with the
plus.

    As far as I am concerned, a child with a refractive STATE of
from zero to +1/2 diopter should receive a written notification of
the potential for plus prevention.

    At that stage the child would have 20/30 vision or better,
and could wear a +1.0 diopter all the time.

    The lens would create 20/60 to 20/70, for a period of time,
but -- with understanding -- the child could wear it all the time.

    But from the primate studies, the refractive STATE will
slowly move positive.  And after three or four months the
refractive state would move towards +3/4 to +1 diopters.

    This type of result is predictable from the primate studies.

    But it would take a wise parent the understand this issue.

    The other alternative is to BEGIN the use of a plus for all
close work, and adjusted for the child's habitual reading
distance.

         ****************************************

4.  Massin, J.    and Poujol, J.    (Eds.)) Diagonstica Ultrasonica in
    Ophthalmologia, Paris, Centre National d'Ophthalmologie
    des Quinze-vingts, 1973

    Francis Young, George Leary

    Here are the statistics:

    Age 9

    N = 109

    Mean +1.43

    SD = 1.40

===================

    Age 17

    N = 97

    Mean = -0.94

    SD = 1.97

====================

Calculation:

Z =  X(c) - X(t) / Sqrt [ X(c) ^2 / N(c) + X(t) / N(t)

Z = 2.37 / Sqrt [ 1.4 ^2 / 109    +  1.97 ^2 / 97 ]

Z = 9.84

=================

    This compares with 95 percent (significant) and 99 percent
(highly significant).  These values are 1.64 and 2.33.

    Virtually certain is anything above 3.9, and this value is
far above that number.

    No single study, no one assessment can be effective.

    But over 30 years you would expect that we could get
"smarter" about the need for plus-prevention at the threshold.

    Or at the very minimum, understand the long-term consequences
of rejecting the preventive plus at the 0.0 diotper to + 1/2
diopter phase.

    Perhaps these statistics will help a parent ACCEPT the need
for the preventive plus -- even when their child as 20/20 and zero
diopters.

               *************************

5. "The Distribution of Refractive Errors in Monkeys", Francis A.
Young,
Exp. Eye Res. (1964) 3, 230-238,

Data:  Monkeys in cages or confined enviroment for over 7 years.

N = 154 Eyes

Mean = -1.6 diopters

Sigma = 4.2 diopters

Measured spread:  -22 to +5.5 diopters

The distribution of monkeys in the wild, for 598 eyes
had an approximate average of +0.7 diopters, and a
standard deviation of 0.7 diopters for comparison.

Otis

+++++++++

> <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> -MT
Neil Brooks - 07 Jun 2007 03:40 GMT
On Jun 6, 7:16 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Sure, Mike, here are the t-tests you requested.
>
> I assume you mean student's "t" for small samples,
> and "z" for large sample Gaussian distributions.

[ssssnip]

Back to just regurgitating endless bibliographical information that's
totally irrelevant to your primary point, huh, Uncle Otie?

I believe that Mike's looking for convincing clinical evidence--
substantiated by statistical analysis

 http://www.socialresearchmethods.net/kb/stat_t.php

Showing that plus lenses prevent myopia and/or that minus lenses
cause, or accelerate, myopia.

You can't do that.
You won't do that.
You can't answer MY questions.
You won't answer MY questions.
You can't answer PClark's questions.
You won't answer PClark's questions.
You're dishonest.

Looking good there, Uncle Otie.
Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2007 16:46 GMT
> Sure, Mike, here are the t-tests you requested.

That's silly, we know Asians get nearsighted.

Show us t-tests comparing Asians wearing glasses with Asians who don't.

Show us t-tests comparing Asians wearing plus with Asians who don't.

Tell us why Asian governments haven't restricted the use of minus lenses.

Many of those countries have no optometry, BTW. Who do you blame for
prescribing evil minus?

-MT

>> <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> -MT
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 08 Jun 2007 00:07 GMT
On Jun 6, 10:16 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Sure, Mike, here are the t-tests you requested.
>
[quoted text clipped - 281 lines]
>
> read more »

thanks for cutting and pasting these references again.

perhaps you would like to tell us what your conclusions are from these
publications-- as an objective engineer and as a rational thinking
person, what do these publications prove to you.
DoctorRick - 08 Jun 2007 05:06 GMT
>Sure, Mike, here are the t-tests you requested.

I don't believe these were the results MT was looking for.
But its all you have, that and your faith, and so I guess you'll post
and repost it again.

We all know that there is increased prevalence of myopia in Asians.
We all know the Eskimo story.
We all know that when monkeys had -3.00 lenses permanently afixed to
their eyes that they become myopic.

But what does all this stuff you posted prove?
These are simply observations.  And its true they so suggest some
theories that should be tested, but  they have already and the data is
published.  So then why don't you discuss the results of those studies
where possible therapies for preventing myopia are explored?  Why not
present the actual data from the studies where groups of humans were
tested who plus readers versus another groups who did not?  Why don't
you discuss the statistics of studies where humans who wore bifocals
added to their glasses versus those who did not?  Why don't you
discuss human studies where groups were actually overminused while
other groups were not? And why not discuss the results of studies
where underminused myopies were compared to properly corrected myopes?

These are the hard cold facts.  These results show attempts to reduce
myopia progression DO NOT WORK-- including plus lenses.

Your critical thinking abilities are none existent.  Are you sure you
are really an engineer?  What schools did you train at?

Stories and observations do not prove anything Otis.  Scientific
studies with control groups and careful data analysis do.  Why do you
ignor the data?

Are you retired or did you get fired?
Ms.Brainy - 06 Jun 2007 20:46 GMT
On Jun 6, 10:22 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Brainy,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sign YOUR NAME!  If you had done THAT I would have
> not responded:

Otis,

You continue to provide support to the claim of severe refractive
error in your brain.

I DID send the message under my name.  I made it clear that I was the
writer, not you.  Everybody but you understood it.  Everybody knew it
was a joke, but not you.

Did I not provide the CORRECT answers (on your behalf) to P.Clar's
questions?  Did you not have the chance to answer his questions, which
you chose to ignore?

As Neil said, actions (or non-actions) have consequences.  Don't be
surprised if people ridicule you when you choose to evade any sincere
inquiry and paste again and again the same old crap that is hardly
ever a true response to the questions asked.

I did not invent the answers.  I only re-used your own stuff.

My advice, Otis, is that you apply this plus remedy to your brain
refractive error.  This is my second or third opinion.  When you do
that, perhaps you can also get some sense of humor as a bonus.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2007 04:46 GMT
On Jun 5, 10:58 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Re: Questions in 10 minutes.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Re: Brainy's endless "questions".

you are really mentally defective aren't you Otis.

who asked you, or who even cares, what you wondered about when you
were young.  pornography and self-gratification i'm sure!

and your slow-moving brain believes it was Ms. Brainy who asked you
the "endless questions."  no matter, you are too much of a wus to
answer.

for some reason you instead cut and paste some stupid Raphaelson/
Printer's Son story that seems to give you wet dreams at night.  how
boring and irrelevant.  why not read some currrent research articles
relating to myopia development instead?

So once again, I ask you these questions in a more simplified (=easier
for you to comprehend) form:
1.  what training or experience do you have that allows you to
recommend treatments to people?
2.  how come uncorrected myopes who never wear the wretched minus stay
myopic or get more myopic?
3.  how come uncorrected hyperopes, who have to strain as if they are
wearing strong minus lenses all the time, do not develop myopia (or at
least lessen their farsightedness) over time?
4.  how come studies where humans (not monkeys or chickens) are
intentionally overminused prove that their prescriptions do not
develop accelerated myopia as you claim?  why do you come up with a
concept of staircase myopia when real statistical data in humans shows
it doesn't happen (as if you care about facts).
5.  how come undercorrecting myopes so that they don't need to
accommodate as much when they read actually INCREASES their myopia
development?
6.  how come the Hong Kong study group concludes that bifocals do not
reduce myopia progression?

Was that shorter version of the questions easier for you to
comprehend?  Why do you avoid direct questions and instead post old
prose about Raphaelson or Sterling Colgate?  Why can't you talk
directly about a topic?

The above questions really cut to the core of your theory of myopia
prevention.  If you cannot answer them, or will not answer them, then
your credibility is reduced (even further).  as you know, people are
watching and can clearly recognize your weakness.  See how they laugh
and make fun of you.  Either stand up and address the critical
foundations of your theory or go away to your little far-flung
alternative forum where people burn incense and sit in the lotus
position while trying to relax-away their refractive errors.

I didn't know this is what engineers did.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2007 04:49 GMT
> 1. Reading their own Snellen.

how does this prevent myopia?  seems more likely that if facilitates
memorization of the acuity chart and taint objective measurements/

> 2. Having some faith in themselves to try prevention.

apparently "faith" is all you can offer them since the data clearly
demonstrates that prevention doesn't work.
 
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