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Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2007

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A Beautiful Story

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Revival - 28 May 2007 14:19 GMT
Fellow community of sci.med.vision,

The following is an account of a natural vision restoration by
relaxation treatment. Perhaps it will be of special interest to
sufferers of the hypermetropic eye disorder (including Neil) among our
group. -

"Ten days ago, I discovered Dr. Bates, his book, his method and
iblindness.org. With glasses, Day 1, I began reading Dr. Bakes' book.
It made so much sense to me that I immediately tried  palming as Dr.
Bates instructed and experienced very short clear flashing. I took off
my glasses and decided I would never put them on again unless
absolutely necessary. Dr. Bates completely convinced me that my near-
vision could be restored. On Day 2, I continued to read Dr. Bates book
and also began to practice Bates Method and convergence using Dr.
Gottlieb's Presbyopia Reduction Chart. On Day 3, when outside in the
sunshine and without glasses, I was astounded to find myself reading
and seeing clearly with near-vision. However, when I went indoors, my
near-vision blurred again.

On Day 4, I decided to dedicate all my free time to Bates Method and
improve my vision as rapidly as possible. At this point, I began
sunning and continued combining Bates Method with convergence
practice. When working with eye charts indoors, blurring diminished,
but on Day 5, I started experiencing  refraction errors. I began
imagining letters with perfect white halos and by Day 7 all the
astigmatic-type refraction errors ceased.  I was spending 6-9 hours a
day practicing Bates Method both indoors and outdoors.

Fortunately, I work at home, so my schedule is very flexible. I
dropped everything except absolutely necessary work on the computer
and set my monitors to lowest resolution so as to be able to work
without glasses. Even so the screen was blurry, so I  increased
browser text size to enormous. This is enormously inconvenient and my
work takes twice as long to accomplish, but I only resort to glasses
for when absolutely necessary, and less and less frequently. When
working on computer, I practice palming, shifting and flashing to
clear vision.

On Day 7, while alternating convergence and palming, I imagined along
these lines: here we are, the three of us, ego, mind and eyes. I told
my mind, just see how dear eyes, through no fault of their own, but
due to our own ignorance, have been locked in behind glasses for
twelve years. Now we know that dear eyes are perfect and always were
perfect. Mind and eyes, you are one but have both suffered from being
separated. I (ego) now give up trying to force eyes to see. Mind, you
are the seer! I am returning eyes  to your care, so please remember
how you used to see and assist eyes by relearning how control the
muscles and nerves that help eyes to do what always did so well. Now I
am just going to imagine black, and you, mind, are now completely free
to restore eyes to their naturally perfect shape and function. Mind
was very responsive to this coaching. Intermittently during this
session, I experienced almost-electrical impulses stimulating my eye
muscles. These sensations arose at intervals with a regularity that
reminded me of childbirth labor contractions. These sensations were
accompanied by what felt like gritty particles being dislodged and
released from around and behind my eyeballs. I made sure to breathe
and relax through the process so as to not interpret any discomfort
from these sensations as pain that might interfere with what my mind
was accomplishing. I understood that my mind was reestablishing its
connection with eyes. Although I remained emotionally calm and just
observed what was happening, tears poured from my eyes and snot from
my nose. Since this session, my vision clearing is considerably
faster, and every clearing brings incremental lasting improvement.

Since Day 3, clearing of my vision in sunlight has never diminished
but only improved. Any blurring on computer and under indoor lighting
improves with frequent palming. I continue combining Bates Method with
convergence practice. Last night, Day 9, I began to be able to read in
bright indoor lighting.

When I started wearing glasses, my only problem was reading small
print within arms-length distance, but during the twelve years my eyes
were locked in their glasses prison, my near-vision gradually receded
to the point where objects and print many feet or yards away were
blurry. Since taking off my glasses and practicing Bates Method, every
day the range of clarity approaches nearer, as if my near-vision is
"coming at me".

Thanks to Bates Method, I begun experiencing astounding depth
perception, nuances of shadow, light and sunlight, colors and details
that I had been deprived of by glasses. Now when I work with my eye
charts and, as I begin to read indoors again, I know how to clear my
vision and transform gray into black and white and how to bring into
sharp focus any blur. And my recovery of perfect imagination has only
just begun! I really did not expect such fast improvement from Bates
Method, but here I am reading without glasses and relearning to see
with my imagination.

Funny thing the other day, a glasses-wearing photographer told me it
is not possible that my near-vision recovery could be really
happening. I asked him if he meant that for twelve years, even when my
glasses weren't on my nose, I was only imagining I had lost my near-
vision?  "Yes," he said, "it's all in your imagination."  haha!
"That's exactly right," I told him, "and that's why the Bates Method
works!"  "This is all very interesting," he replied, "but I've got to
run.""

Posted at: http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,520.0.html

You may also be interested in her full success story at:
http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,514.0.html

Enjoy,

-Revival
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 14:53 GMT
> The following is an account of a natural vision restoration by
> relaxation treatment. Perhaps it will be of special interest to
> sufferers of the hypermetropic eye disorder (including Neil) among our
> group. -

Unverifiable, third-hand anecdotes are of no use/interest to anybody
here, generally.

There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing
stuff.  You may want to consider going to one of those, instead.

Hypermetropic Neil
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:07 GMT
"There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing
stuff.  "

The cure of imperfect sight by treatment without glasses is not faith based.

'Dr. Bates' method is purely scientific, no new age, no alternative medicine,
no smelly stuff like that. You do need faith - the faith in yourself - but no
more than for any other your intention to manifest in life.' - Oleg K.

http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg1676.html#msg1676
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:15 GMT
> "There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing
> stuff.  "
>
> The cure of imperfect sight by treatment without glasses is not faith based.

Saying it doesn't make it so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:23 GMT
"Saying it doesn't make it so."

Of course.

Seeing for yourself that the methods work, does, however, 'make it so'.
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:30 GMT
> "Saying it doesn't make it so."
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> --
> Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1

Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me.  I knew nothing of
it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded
teachers in Southern California, did all the homework, and ...
nothing.

I've met nobody since whose results differed dramatically from mine.

Also, seeing for yourself does NOT make it so.  Mike Tyner still
maintains that his front yard is elephant-free BECAUSE he uses
elephant repellent spray on a daily basis.

Do you think that's why Mike has an elephant free yard?

You might.  Most wouldn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:42 GMT
"Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me.  I knew nothing of
it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded
teachers in Southern California"

Nine months?

It takes 1 minute to see true noticeable improvement - no more.

One single minute.

"found the most highly-regarded
teachers in Southern California"

And there's your mistake.
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:45 GMT
> "Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me.  I knew nothing of
> it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It takes 1 minute to see true noticeable improvement - no more.

Ah, got it.  Thanks.  I'll call about a refund.

> "found the most highly-regarded
> teachers in Southern California"
>
> And there's your mistake.

True.  I should have consulted you and your peers to find a quack.

Next time ... I promise.
Revival - 28 May 2007 22:13 GMT
Neil Brooks,

Subject: Reasons for Orthodox Disapproval & Charlatanism

"True.  I should have consulted you and your peers to find a quack.
Next time ... I promise."

-------------------

First Questions

You are no doubt already wondering: "What is the Bates method, and if
it is so marvelous why haven't I heard about it before?"

Briefly, the method is a way of re-educating the eyesight. Errors of
refraction (that is, of focusing) are regarded as temporary regulatory
powers of the body, can be reduced in severity or eliminated
altogether.

As to why you haven't heard about it before, there are several
reasons. The first and most important is the attitude of the medical
profession. In our culture we have come to rely too heavily on the
theoretical approach to medicine. No cure can be truly acceptable
unless and until there is a theory to explain it. The theory
accounting for refractive error is the work of the German scientist
Hermann von Helmholtz (1821-94), whose contribution to the study of
the nervous system still dominates modern thinking. Helmholtz's theory
states that the eye accommodates (changes focus for far and near
objects) by means of changes in the shape of the lens. If the lens or
its muscle system is faulty, or if the eyeball is congenitally
malformed, then refractive errors will arise. Although there is now
even some controversy over the exact mechanism by which the lens
changes its shape, orthodox science has never questioned the basic
tenet of the Helmholtz theory: that it is the lens which is solely
responsible for changing the focal length of the eye.

The theory is eminently reasonable. It seems to be borne out by the
anatomy of the eye. Among older people, who progressively lose
elasticity of the lens, refractive error is assumed to be an
inevitable concomitant of the passing years, so much so that graphs
have been drawn showing loss of accommodation with increasing age.
Furthermore it is actually possible to see changes in the curvature of
the lens: reflections in the front and back surfaces may be observed
by using a small flashlight. These Purkinje images, as they are
called, are taken as the next best thing to observing the act of
accommodation in a cross-sectioned living eye. And, as further
evidence in support of the Helmholtz theory, science would cite the
apparent case with which glasses correct optical errors.

Another serious obstacle to acceptance of the Bates method was the
personality of W.H. Bates himself. Having found empirically that the
Helmholtz theory was lacking, he was far too quick to formulate a
rival theory. Bates's proposal was that the eye accommodates, not by a
change in the shape of the lens, but by a change in the shape of the
eyeball itself, this change being brought about by the six extrinsic
muscles which control the movement of the eye in its socket. Such an
idea was rejected as nonsense, the more so when Bates adduced less-
than-convincing evidence in some of his scientific papers dealing with
accommodation in professional hostility. His insights into the
psychology of vision were ignored, as were the successes he achieved
in his consulting room.These successes convinced him he was right and
his colleagues wrong; he became more and more exasperated, and the
dogmatic tone of his *Perfect Sight Without Glasses* verges, in
places, on the aggressive. This did little to win over his critics.

The Bates method was served no better by some of the people who set
themselves up as teachers. For every conscientious teacher of the
method there were several who understood nothing whatever about it and
saw in it only a means of exploiting the desperate patients whom
orthodoxy had failed. In consequence, any suggestion that there might
be something in visual re-education is now dismissed as outright
quackery.

This attitude of the opthalmic profession has perhaps, in part,
consciously or otherwise, been influenced by another consideration.
Although by no means all members of the profession profit from the
trade in glasses, there is no question but that there is a huge vested
interest in the correctness of the Helmholtz theory.

Yet another obstacle stands in the way of the Bates method. It is so
easy for the instant solution that few people give the method a fair
chance. The person who has improved his or her vision is such a rarity
that few opticians will have encountered any evidence that the method
works. Those cases that have come to light have certainly been
explained as examples of anomalous but spontaneous improvement which
would have happened anyway.

The final obstacle to acceptance of the method is the curious nature
of refractive errors and the perpetuating effect that glasses have on
them. Glasses tend to fix and make permanent errors that would
otherwise, in time, correct themselves. The longer glasses are worn,
the more intransigent the errors become, and the less believable it
becomes that they could ever be cured.

And yet, despite all these difficulties, the method persists. It
enjoyed special popularity in the 1930s and 1940s, particularly after
its enthusiastic endorsement by the writer Aldous Huxley, whose book
on the method, *The Art of Seeing* (Chatto and Windus, 1943), has
rarely been out of print since. There have been other books too, of
varying quality. In one of the better ones, published in 1957, the
Bates teacher C.A. Hackett analyzes the results of 10 years' work in
which she treated 2180 cases of refractive error. Of these, over 75
percent achieved lasting improvement, of whom about 45 per cent (over
a third of all students) were able to do without their glasses
entirely.

It is my hope - even conviction - that future generations will regard
the wholesale dispensing of glasses as yet another pitiable example of
a misguided fashion in medicine, as quaint as wholesale bloodletting
or trepanning, and almost as barbarous.

-------------------

- Jonathon Barnes

-------------------

A Method of Visual Re-Education

In the early years of the 20th century Dr W.H. Bates, a New York
oculist, became dissatisfied with the ordinary symptomatic treatment
of eyes. Seeking a substitute for artificial lenses, he set himself to
discover if there was any way of re-educating defective vision into a
condition of normality.

As a result of his work with a large number of patients he came to the
conclusion that the great majority of visual defects were functional
and due to faulty habits of use. These faulty habits of use were
invariably related, he found, to a condition of strain and tension. As
was to be expected from the unitary nature of the human organism,
strain affected both the body and the mind.

Dr. Bates discovered that, by means of appropriate techniques, this
condition of strain could be relieved. When it had been relieved -
when patient had learnt to use their eyes and mind in a relaxed way -
vision was improved and refractive errors tended to correct
themselves. Practice in the educational techniques served to build up
good seeing habits in place of the faulty habits responsible for
defective vision, and in many cases function came to be completely and
permanently normalized.

Now, it is a well-established physiological principle that improved
functioning always tends to result in an improvement in the organic
condition of the tissues involved. The eye, Dr. Bates discovered, was
no exception to this general rule. When the patient learn to relax his
tenseness and acquired proper seeing habits, the *vis medicatrix
naturae* was given a chance to operate - with the result that, in many
cases, the improvement of functioning was followed by a complete
restoration of the health and organic integrity of the diseased eye.

Dr Bates died in 1931, and up to this time of his death he continued
to perfect and develop his methods for the improvement of visual
function. Furthermore, during the last years of Dr Bates' life and
since his death, his pupils, in various parts of the world, have
developed a number of valuable new applications of the general
principles which he laid down. By means of these techniques large
number of men, women and children, suffering from visual defects of
every kind, have successfully re-educated into normality or towards
normality. For anyone who has studies a selection of these cases, or
who has himself undergone the process of visual re-education, it is
impossible to doubt that here at last is a method of treating
imperfect sight which is not merely symptomatic, but genuinely
aetiological - a method which does not confine itself to the
mechanical neutralization of defects but aims at the removal of their
physiological and psychological causes. And yet, in spite of the long
period during which it has been known, in spite of the quality and
quantity of the results obtained through its employment by competent
instructors. Dr Bates' own technique still remains unrecognized by the
medical and optometrical professions. It is, I think, worth while,
before going any further, to enumerate and discuss the principal
reasons for this, to my mind, deplorable state of things.

Reasons for Orthodox Disapproval

In the first place, the very fact that the method is unrecognized and
lies outside the pale of orthodoxy is a sufficient invitation to the
petty adventurers and charlatans who hang upon the skirts of society,
ever ready and eager to take advantage of human suffering. There
exist, scattered about the world, some scores or perhaps hundreds of
well-trained and thoroughly conscientious teachers of Dr Bates'
method. But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and
unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system that its
name.The fact is deplorable, but not at all surprising. The number of
those who fail to obtain relief from the current symptomatic treatment
of visual defect is considerable, and the Bates Method has a high
reputation for effectiveness in such cases. Moreover, the technique is
unorthodox, therefore no standards of competence are legally imposed
upon its teachers. A large potential clientèle, a desperate need of
help, and no questions asked as to knowledge, character and ability!
These are the ideal conditions for the practice of charlatanism. What
wonder, then, if certain unscrupulous people have taken advantage of
the opportunities thus offered? But because *some* unorthodox
practitioners are charlatans, it does not logically follow that *all*
must be. I repeat that it does not logically follow; but, alas, as the
history of almost any professional group clearly demonstrates,
orthodox opinion would always very much like it to follow. That is one
of the reasons why, in this particular case, the unwarranted
assumption that the whole business is mere quackery is widely
accepted, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The cure for
charlatanism is not the suppression of an intrinsically sound method,
but proper education for, and control of, its teachers. Proper
education and control are equally the cure for that licensed
charlatanism among opticians, which has been described and denounced
in articles appearing in *The Reader's Digest* (1937) and the New York
*World-Telegram* (1942).

The second reason for the non-acceptance of the method may be summed
up in three words: habit, authority and professionalism. The
symptomatic treatment of defective sight has been going on for a long
time, has been carried to a high degree of perfection, and within its
limitations, is reasonably successful. If it fails in a certain
proportion of cases to provide even adequate palliation of the
symptoms, that is nobody's fault, but a condition inherent in the
nature of things. For years, the highest medical authorities have all
asserted this to be the case - and who will venture to question a
recognized authority?

Certainly not the members of the profession to which the authority
belongs. Every guild and trade has its own *esprit de corps*, its
private patriotism, which makes it resent all rebellion from within
and all competition or criticism from without.

Next there is the matter of vested interest. The manufacture of
optical glass is now a considerable industry, and its retail sale, a
profitable branch of commerce, to which access can be had only be
persons who have had a special technical training. That there should
be, among these licensed persons, a strong dislike to any new
technique, which threatens to make the use of optical glass
unnecessary, is only natural. (It is perhaps, worth remarking that,
even if the value of Dr Bates' techniques were generally recognized,
there would be small likelihood of any immediate or considerable
decline in the consumption of optical glass. Visual re-education
demands from the pupil a certain amount of thought, time and trouble.
But thought, time and trouble are precisely what the overwhelming
majority of men and women are not prepared to give, unless motivated
by a passionate desire or an imperious need. Most of those who can get
along more a less satisfactorily with the help of mechanical seeing-
aids, will continue to do so, even when they know that there exists a
system of training which would make it possible for them, not merely
to palliate symptoms, but actually get rid of the causes of visual
defect. So long as the art of seeing is not taught to children as a
part of their normal education, the trade in artificial lenses is not
likely to suffer more than a trifling loss by reason of the official
recognition of the new technique. Human sloth and inertia will
guarantee the opticians at least nine-tenths of their present
business.)

Another reason for the orthodox attitude in this matter is of a
strictly empirical nature. Oculists and optometrists affirm that they
have never witnessed the phenomena of self-regulation and cure
described by Bates and his followers. therefore they conclude that
such phenomena never take place. In this syllogism the premises are
true, but the conclusion is unsound. It is quite true that oculists
and optometrists have never observed such phenomena as are described
by Bates and his followers. But this is because they have never had
any dealing with patients who had learned to use their organs of
vision in a relaxed, unstrained way. So long as the organs of vision
are used under a condition of mental and physical tension, the *vis
medicatrix naturae* will not manifest itself, and the visual defects
will persist, or actually become worse. Oculists and optometrists will
observe the phenomena described by Bates as soon as they relieve the
strain in their patients' eyes by means of Bates's method of visual
education. Because the phenomena cannot occur under the conditions
imposed by orthodox practitioners, it does not follow that they will
not occur when these conditions are changed, so that the healing
powers of the organism are no longer hindered, but given free play.

To this empirical reason for rejecting the Batesian technique must be
added one more - this time in the realm of theory. In the course of
his practice as an oculist, Dr Bates came to doubt the truth of the
currently accepted hypothesis regarding the eye's power of
accommodation to near and distant vision. This matter was for long the
subject of heated debate, until finally, a couple of generations ago,
orthodox medical opinion decided in favor of the Helmholtz hypothesis,
which attributes the eye's power of accommodation to the action of the
ciliary muscle upon the lens. Working with cases of defective vision,
Dr Bates observed a number of facts which the Helmholtz theory seemed
powerless to explain. After numerous experiments on animals and human
beings, he came to the conclusion that the principal factor in
accommodation was not the lens, but the extrinsic muscles of the
eyeball, and that was the focusing of the eye for near and distant
objects was accomplished by the lengthening and shortening of the
globe as a whole. The papers describing his experiments were printed
in various medical journals at the time, and have been summarized in
the opening chapters of his book, *Perfect Sight Without Glasses*
(see: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Perfect_Sight_Without_Glasses ).

Whether Dr. Bates was right or wrong in his rejection of the Helmholtz
theory of accommodation, I am entirely unqualified to say. My own
guess, after reading the evidence, would be that both the extrinsic
muscles and the lens play their part in accommodation.

This guess may be correct, or it may be incorrect. I do not greatly
care. For my concern is not with the anatomical mechanism of
accommodation, but with the art of seeing - and the art of seeing does
not stand or fall with any particular physiological hypothesis.
Believing that Bates' theory of accommodation was untrue, the orthodox
have concluded that his technique of visual education must be unsound.
Once again this is an unwarranted conclusion, due to a failure to
understand the nature of an art, or psycho-physical skill.

-------------------

- Aldous Huxley, The Art of Seeing, Ch.2, Pg 6-11

-------------------

Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

Warm regards,

-Revival
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 22:34 GMT
[snip]

Sorry ... what?  I nodded off for a bit there.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 23:20 GMT
> [snip]
>
> Sorry ... what?  I nodded off for a bit there.

Lord, give me strength.

DrG
spammer - 28 May 2007 23:47 GMT
The bates method is truly a way of separating a fool and their money.
Revival - 29 May 2007 13:06 GMT
---

Sorry ... what?  I nodded off for a bit there.

---

Okay, I will give you a short summary of what I wrote -

According to you -

"Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me.  I knew nothing of it,
went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded teachers in
Southern California, did all the homework, and nothing. "

Upon reading this, I figured that something isn't right. Seeing as it only
takes a minute to see for yourself a real improvement, when you say: 'nine
months of bates teaching did nothing for me', I read: 'For nine months I was
scammed as a victim of charlatanism'.

Basically, there exist, scattered across the world, many true followers of
Bates' original method of visual re-education. Unfortunately for us true
followers, for every one of us, there are about a hundred people who know
nothing, absolutely nothing, about the true art of seeing, other than its
name - 'bates method'. These people take many different forms in order to
extract money from desperate people who will do anything for a cure, for
example 'See Clearly Method' - which has nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do
with bates's methods. These people *are* the 'scammers', 'con artists', and
so on, that you describe. We are in no way associated with such evildoers.

I repeat, we do not support 'see clearly method', nor 'plus lens prevention',
nor 'super vision tablet pills'. 'The Cure of Imperfect Sight by Relaxation
Treatment' devised by a certain man, is, as the name suggest, not a
'prevention', but a 'cure'. We do not believe there is a 'threshold' of
vision after which it is 'too late' to cure yourself. We do not believe that
if you 'sit on your butt too long, there's no going back'. There is NO such
thing! There is no 'point' beyond 20/70, after which the cure is impossible.
It is never too late!! Do not confuse our methods with that of Otis.

Now it makes me sad, very very sad, to know that so many people are suffering
SO unnecessarily! The cure is right in front of you! Why do you over
complicate problems where the solution is SO simple! Kiesling puts it very
nicely -

---------------

The core of the Bates method is so simple that when someone through practice
of the exercises comes into complete realization of what they are doing to
their eyes to cause the blurred vision, and the realization that everyone
else out there has the same problem, it is absolutely shocking. It's shocking
that the epidemic has gotten as bad as it has and that there is such
worldwide denial of the incredibly simple cause of every form of blurred
vision, that this problem you've had for years and years disappears simply by
relieving the built-up chronic strain around your eyes.

---------------

- http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,511.msg2324.html#msg2324
Dr. Leukoma - 29 May 2007 13:35 GMT
> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> --
> Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1

Let me see if I have this straight:

Hyperopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes.
Myopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes.
Astigmatism is caused by built-up strain around the eyes.
Presbyopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes.
Etc.

Also, seeing is an art, like hearing, touching, smelling.  One needs
to learn how to do it?

DrG
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2007 13:48 GMT
> thing! There is no 'point' beyond 20/70, after which the cure is
> impossible.
> It is never too late!! Do not confuse our methods with that of Otis.

And you'd also prefer we don't confuse you with technical details like
control groups, t-tests, and efficacy.

Faith is the evidence of things not seen.

-MT
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 15:11 GMT
> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Okay, I will give you a short summary of what I wrote -

[snip]

Nope.  Didn't work.  Nodded off again.  Sorry.
Revival - 28 May 2007 23:49 GMT
To make a small correction in the fourth paragraph of 'First Questions' -

"science would cite the apparent [case] with which glasses correct optical
errors. "

'case' should have been 'ease'.

Apologies.
spammer - 28 May 2007 23:51 GMT
> To make a small correction in the fourth paragraph of 'First Questions' -
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> --

You can correct any paragraph you choose, but the bates method is just
a scam.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 29 May 2007 00:56 GMT
> Neil Brooks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 185 lines]
>
> read more »

do you really think anybody here is reading your bandwidth-wasting,
hard drive-choking, bull$hit post?

are you masturbating and giggling while you post this crap, thinking
that you are annoying everyone in this newsgroup?

you are a pathetic, mentally-disturbed dweeb.  go back to your faith-
healing internet forum and discuss the effects of colonic cleansing on
refractive error changes in pre-pubescent males.  this forum is about
science, medicine, and vision.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 15:37 GMT
near-
> vision could be restored. On Day 2, I continued to read Dr. Bates book
> and also began to practice Bates Method and convergence using Dr.
> Gottlieb's Presbyopia Reduction Chart. On Day 3, when outside in the
> sunshine and without glasses, I was astounded to find myself reading
> and seeing clearly with near-vision. However, when I went indoors, my
> near-vision blurred again.

Simple optical explanation.  The pupil constricts in bright light,
thereby increasing depth of focus and reducing aberrations, i.e.
nature's pinhole camera.  As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in
bright light as well.

DrG
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:42 GMT
> near-
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> nature's pinhole camera.  As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in
> bright light as well.

Dr. G-

I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't
suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false
cause to something he/she experienced, right?

<grin>
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 16:07 GMT
> I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't
> suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false
> cause to something he/she experienced, right?

No.  I am suggesting that the subject obviously did not have any
understanding of visual science and phyiological optics, and therefore
was unable to entertain a scientific explanation for the experience.
Instead of telling someone that pupil constriction can reduce the
aberrations, you tell them something about the marvelous vision
restorative benefits of natural sunlight.  But, it is quite possible
that Bates didn't know this.  Perhaps he also didn't know of the
accommodative/convergence/miosis triad, or of accommodative
infacility, or the relationship between lenticular astigmatism and
accommodation.  Therefore, he invented other naturalistic/holistic
explanations to explain the phenomena.

DrG
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 16:08 GMT
> > I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't
> > suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> DrG

Note the <grin> in my post.  I knew what you meant ... and applaud it.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 16:12 GMT
> > > I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't
> > > suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I couldn't tell if the <grin> applied to the explanation or the
"admired and respected..."

<grin>

DrG
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:57 GMT
Dr G,

"Simple optical explanation.  The pupil constricts in bright light, thereby
increasing depth of focus and reducing aberrations, i.e. nature's pinhole
camera.  As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in nature's pinhole camera.
As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in bright light as well."

"Well it may or may not be what we call a clear flash, a real improvement in
vision and not just the effect of bright light. One of the best ways to tell
which is is by how your eyes feel. If they feel more strained, then it isn't
a clear flash. However, if they feel strangely different, more relaxed, more
open, more loose, something along those lines, then it's a pretty good bet
it's a real clear flash." - Kiesling

http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,506.msg2296.html#msg2296
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 16:11 GMT
> Dr G,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,506.msg2296.html#msg2296

Oh ... a guy named Dave said it on his own website; therefore, it must
be true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2007 17:18 GMT
Dear Revival,

Subject:  Respect for scientific facts concerning the natural eye's
behavior.

Perhaps these majority-opinion ODs do not understand the preventive
second-opinion, because they have not a clue about Bates.
Here is some more supporting information.

http://www.central-fixation.com/bettereyesight.htm

I think the majority-opinion "problem" is that they believe
that EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD must be a quick-fix
in five minutes OR ELSE.

Thus the equate simplistic quick-fixing with fundamental
science.

And it is impossible to reduce science into both a
quick-fix and true-prevention.

The concepts contradict each other -- PROFOUNDLY.

But if you realize this, and feel "empowered" to clear
your Snellen, pass the DMV leve visual acutiy tests,
then their is no need to accept this majority-opinion
abuse.

Think for youself.  Act wisely.  And clear your
vision before you even start with that wretched minus.

Enjoy prevention!  Because if you don't take care of
it, then the minus lens must be used as the default.

Otis

> Dr G,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 17:34 GMT
On May 28, 9:18 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:

> Think for youself.  Act wisely.  And clear your
> vision before you even start with that wretched minus.
>
> Enjoy prevention!  Because if you don't take care of
> it, then the minus lens must be used as the default.

But ... your niece, Joy Benson, never wore the minus lens, DID use the
plus lens, and is now a myope with a restricted driver's license.

What happened there, Uncle Otie?

Why can't we talk about it??
Revival - 28 May 2007 17:46 GMT
"Why can't we talk about it??"

Because it is unrelated to the current discussion.
spammer - 28 May 2007 20:29 GMT
> "Why can't we talk about it??"
>
> Because it is unrelated to the current discussion.

That would be too bad. How 'bout those Cleveland Indians ?
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 28 May 2007 18:50 GMT
> Fellow community of sci.med.vision,
>
[quoted text clipped - 101 lines]
>
> -Revival

Revival = Kaze = William H Bates

Otis is dragging his troll buddies into this newsgroup again.

this newsgroup is about "science" and "medicine" and "vision".  your
fairy-tale alternative medicine stuff is NOT what this newsgroup is
about.  go back to your little iblindness forum and post happy
messages back and forth to each other.  we could care less about your
fiction.
Revival - 29 May 2007 00:00 GMT
"But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and
unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system [that] its
name."

'that' should have been 'than'.

Again, apologies, at the time of writing I had not expected there to be so
many mistakes.

"You can correct any paragraph you choose, but the bates method is just
a scam. "

Let us define a 'scam'. According to Wikipedia:

'A confidence trick, confidence game, or con for short (also known as a scam)
is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the mark)
usually with the goal of financial or other gain. The confidence trickster,
con man, scam artist or con artist often works with an accomplice called the
shill, who tries to encourage the mark by pretending to believe the trickster.
...'

And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method.
Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet.
spammer - 29 May 2007 00:05 GMT
> "But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and
> unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system [that] its
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method.
> Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet.

 Define it any way you want, a scam is a scam is a scam.
DoctorRick - 29 May 2007 01:08 GMT
>And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method.
>Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet.

So what?  Just because its free doesn't mean its valid.
In this case, its worth about what you pay for it -- zero.
Simon Dean - 29 May 2007 19:03 GMT
> Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet.

"financial or other gain"

Nut.
Revival - 29 May 2007 19:17 GMT
""financial or other gain"

There is no other gain, except for the satisfaction of knowing that we might
just have stopped the unnecessary suffering of a fellow human being. The
satisfaction of knowing that we have not, unlike the current mainstream
medicine, sent them into a lifetime of completely unnecessary dependence on
glasses Or, better described as 'a lifetime of hell'. The satisfaction of
knowing that, when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable
sate of affairs, that we will be able to say: 'told ya so ;-)'.
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 19:21 GMT
> There is no other gain, except for the satisfaction of knowing that we might
> just have stopped the unnecessary suffering of a fellow human being.

Right off the bat, I can think of a few dozen people in whom you're
INDUCING unnecessary suffering....
Simon Dean - 29 May 2007 19:36 GMT
> ""financial or other gain"
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> knowing that, when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable
> sate of affairs, that we will be able to say: 'told ya so ;-)'.

Unfortunately, the problem is, people like you and Otis are without
liability. You come here, to a newsgroup where the prerequisites are
Science and Medicine and you spout your own personal anecdotes with no
independent qualified backup.

No one minds that you have a second opinion, or that you even voice your
opinion, but it's the way you do it, to often frightened and scared
individuals worried about their eye sight.

You don't care. You don't know them! You also don't have any issues
about liability - if something should go wrong.

You and Otis are not medically trained (I don't know about you, but
considering you don't know the difference between a retinoscope and that
other machine and are here saying you and Otis know best, frankly is
quite concerning).

But it's true. You guys don't know everything.

It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a
question, he goes off on a tangent.

He posted some graphs here a couple years back, and it took me about
five days of keep asking him the same question to find out what the
ranges on the graphs are and just what the graphs were supposed to
represent.

It is a danger that people, with SERIOUS problems, will come here and
you and Otis will offer bad advice without knowing the SERIOUS
situation. Oh I know, because there's more to vision than the eyes, eg
Diabetes, Thyroid conditions, even Brain issues such as MS can affect
vision.

Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "Im not a
doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this".

It wouldn't hurt.

But he won't do it.

Of course, "when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable
sate of affairs", I take it that's in relation to the truth that hasn't
been seen for 100 years?

I'd love to see what you make out of my situation, having gone from
slightly long sighted to slightly short sighted despite wearing plus
lenses (whatever happened to that preventative medicine eh?). A couple
years back I experienced blurry vision, a halo effect around text, text
jumping off the paper at me.

I've been for more tests than you could possibly realise.

You don't care do you.

Cya
Simon
Revival - 29 May 2007 20:55 GMT
---

considering you don't know the difference between a retinoscope and that
other machine and are here saying you and Otis know best, frankly is
quite concerning

---

That was a question asked by my 12 year old younger brother ;-)

---

It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a
question, he goes off on a tangent.

---

Although we are both 'second opinion', my remarks are not that of Otis.

---

But it's true. You guys don't know everything.

---

True. Never said I did.

---

Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "I'm not a
doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this".

---

I will add this disclaimer onto my posts if it makes you happy.

---

Of course, "when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable
sate of affairs"

---

'sate' should have been 'state'. Apologies.

---

I take it that's in relation to the truth that hasn't been seen for 100 years?

--

Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth
everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it
is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an
'ignored' truth.

---

I'd love to see what you make out of my situation, having gone from slightly
long sighted to slightly short sighted despite wearing plus lenses (whatever
happened to that preventative medicine eh?).

---

I do not advocate the 'preventive' approach as promoted by Otis. Anyway, that
isn't even how plus prevention works, where the patient starts off myopic,
then uses a plus lens to cure himself. I do not know how exactly this works
(if it does work), nor do I support such methods.

---

I've been for more tests than you could possibly realise.

---

Congratulations.

---

You don't care do you.

---

What, you want a hug or something?

---

You come here, to a newsgroup where the prerequisites are science and
medicine

---

Well, I have two of the prerequisites: medicine.vision. And it's only a
matter of time before I acquire the third, you watch me! When I get older, I
will prove you all wrong!! >;-(
Ms.Brainy - 29 May 2007 21:03 GMT
Didn't you say you came here to learn?

> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
> --
> Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1
Dr. Leukoma - 29 May 2007 21:07 GMT
> Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth
> everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it
> is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an
> 'ignored' truth.

"Billions and billions."
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 21:35 GMT
> Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth
> everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it
> is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an
> 'ignored' truth.

Got any objective, verifiable, evidence of these people improving
their vision (other than relieving accommodative spasm, which--as I've
said countless times--can be done safely, quickly, and easily with
periocular warming?

If not, then you're still spouting uncorroborated, anecdotal crap.
This just isn't the newsgroup for that.  Why can't you, Otis, or your
12 year old sibling understand that??

There are a dozen other venues that are geared toward alternative/
natural vision improvement.  Why must you troll here?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:53 GMT
> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ---

Would you please stop making replies like this? It's tiresome to read on
a newsgroup. Your 12 year old brother appears to be using the same
handle as you, and it would also explain the "text speak" that he uses.
I advise you get your own handle.

> It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a
> question, he goes off on a tangent.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ---

Yes, this is why I said it is impossible to get an answer out of Otis.
You'll notice I used Otis's name specifically. However, I see you've
just gone off on a tangent yourself, replying to something I havent said
about yourself. So perhaps you and Otis are not that dissimilar?

> But it's true. You guys don't know everything.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ---

No, but people like you and Otis (Ok, maybe not you) postulate as if you
did.

> Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "I'm not a
> doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this".
>
> ---
>
> I will add this disclaimer onto my posts if it makes you happy.

Now, can you convince Otis? Even if he just suggests "talk about this
second opinion with your Doctor". Of course, Otis's response will be,
Doctor doesn't know anything, it's all a conspiracy. Woooo... Follow
me.... Follow me to enlightenment or be damned forever, your children
deserve to have their eyes gouged out and never to see again if you
follow the "majority opinion" "minus lens".

> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> 'sate' should have been 'state'. Apologies.

That's OK, Im not net police. I make enough of my own mistakes and I
deplore those who resort to those tactics, no matter how fun it might be.

> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an
> 'ignored' truth.

Truth? What truth? Does one size really fit all? Your methods I gather
are that of the great, Horatio "quack" Bates? How do you know your
advice will work, that there isn't something more? The likes of you and
Otis are those that will stop someone going to a doctor, or an optician,
and even finding potentially serious conditions.

> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> isn't even how plus prevention works, where the patient starts off myopic,
> then uses a plus lens to cure himself.

Well prevantitive would involve wearing the plus before  becoming myopic
to prevent myopia. At least in Otis's fantasy. Clearly this isn't true
for everybody as even I, as a computer programmer, held back from myopia
for a good what, ooh, twenty years?

> I do not know how exactly this works
> (if it does work), nor do I support such methods.

Hold on? Havent I seen you defending Otis? Apologies if that wasn't you?
Maybe it was your younger 12 year old brother. How old are you then? 13? 15?

> ---
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> What, you want a hug or something?

No no... Just proving that you don't care about science, or medicine,
don't care about any possible underlying factors, and possibly like
Otis, don't care about the many many tests and physical and mental
phenomena present in eye issues... as long as you can sell your palming,
your books, your plus lenses, you couldn't give a crap.

Does yours or Otis's expertise stretch to advising me on my issue?

I've been for MRI's, electrical tests for migraine, worth 4 dot tests,
bagolini tests, maddox red line tests etc etc etc.

Know what those are?

Cya
Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 30 May 2007 05:01 GMT
Dear Revival,

Subject:  Just the scientific facts.

As you know, Bates deplored the over-prescribed minus.

Science now confirms that the eye will change its
refractive STATE when you place a
strong minus on it:

http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/FundEye.html

But of course, the majority-opinion ODs will DENY objective
scientific facts and truth, and concoct their own "story" that
this is not THEIR science.

But let us just call the objection to an over-prescribed
minus the second-opinion.  But science
does support the concept of prevention.

Otis

> ""financial or other gain"
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> Message posted viahttp://www.medkb.com
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 06:10 GMT
On May 29, 9:01 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:

> Subject:  Just the scientific facts.

The "fact" is that you won't answer these perfectly reasonable
questions:

 http://nbeener.com/NDB_OSB_Qs.txt

Why is that, do you suppose?
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 16:29 GMT
On May 30, 12:01 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> refractive STATE when you place a
> strong minus on it:

Really?  please tell us what the proof is.  in humans please.

now that you've resurfaced, please address these observations and
questions.  don't run away again, just try them one at a time if it
seems too overwhelming for you.

1.  What is your professional training, or professional experience,
that allows you to give

people advise on how to manage their vision and eyecare problems?
What Optometry, Ophthalmology,

or Optics training and/or experience do you have?

2.  Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and
are therefore walking

around with net plus power on their eye 24/7, do not become less
myopic.  This is optically the

same as wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't
revert to emmetropia?  Why is

it that they oftentimes become even more myopic?  Your "theory"
predicts the opposite!

3.  How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do
not become more myopic

(=less hyperopic) over time?  They are straining to see, in exactly
the same way that others do

who get very close their reading material.  They do it 24/7.  It's the
same as wearing glasses

that are overminused.  Your theory predicts their refraction should
change, but it doesn't.

Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40.

4.  How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom
Physiol Opt. Feb;61(2):85-93,

1984) children who were overminused on purpose did not become myopic
any more than children who

wore their proper spectacle prescription?  Your "theory" predicts the
opposite!

5.  How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave
them slightly myopic even

with their glasses on, they continued to develop myopia, and actually
at an accelerate rate

(Chung K, Mohidin N, O'Leary DJ. Undercorrection of myopia enhances
rather than inhibits myopia

progression. Vision Res. 2002, 42: 2555-9.)  Your "theory" predicts
the opposite!

6.  How come the Hong Kong Progressive Lens Myopia Control Study
(Investigative Ophthalmology and

Visual Science. 2002;43:2852-2858) concluded that using bifocal lenses
on children has no effect

on myopia progression?  Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
odisbrown@pa.net - 30 May 2007 16:41 GMT
Dear PClark,

Subject: your querulous queries

Although, as a matter of "course," I NEVER "question my OWN
faith," I will entertain a few of YOUR inquiries below.

>On May 30, 12:01 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
>> Dear Revival,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Really?  please tell us what the proof is.  in humans please.

My nephew, Keith.  

I convinced his "mother" that he should wear
the plus lens (at the threshold) and NOT wear the wretched
minus.

He is now in his "fifth decade" and has 20/20 uncorrected vision.

He is also an accomplished athlete and personal trainer, all of
which can be "attributed" to avoiding that first minus lens.

>now that you've resurfaced, please address these observations and
>questions.  don't run away again, just try them one at a time if it
>seems too overwhelming for you.

I shall do my best.

>1.  What is your professional training, or professional experience,
>that allows you to give
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>or Optics training and/or experience do you have?

I wrote a book (that I, of necessity, self-published.  No
reputable publisher would come within a mile of it) about the
wonders of the plus lens and the evils of the minus lens.

The mere "act" of having WRITTEN that book renders me
highly qualified in this area.

>2.  Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and
>are therefore walking
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>it that they oftentimes become even more myopic?  Your "theory"
>predicts the opposite!

They lack the requisite "personal resolve."

My niece is another example of this weak-willed, spineless, character-
lacking sort who just "didn't have" what it "takes."

>3.  How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do
>not become more myopic
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40.

See above.  They are as feckless as my niece, Joy Benson.

>4.  How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom
>Physiol Opt. Feb;61(2):85-93,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>wore their proper spectacle prescription?  Your "theory" predicts the
>opposite!

I can safely assume that this study was flawed.

>5.  How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave
>them slightly myopic even
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>progression. Vision Res. 2002, 42: 2555-9.)  Your "theory" predicts
>the opposite!

It is safe to assume that this study, too, is flawed.

>6.  How come the Hong Kong Progressive Lens Myopia Control Study
>(Investigative Ophthalmology and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>on myopia progression?  Your "theory" predicts the opposite!

Do you FAIL to SEE the pattern here?  Whenever you encounter
a study whose "conclusions" are at variance with mine, then you
have encountered a flawed study.

As always, enjoy our pleasant conversation about the behavior of
the fundamental natural eye.

Best,

Odis
Escapee
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:10 GMT
>Dear PClark,
>
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>Odis
>Escapee

Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
' Scared of something, Neil?
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 17:17 GMT
> Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
> ' Scared of something, Neil?

Sadly, I don't know anything about the message in question.

I'll put it to you, though:

Just like Otis, you steadfastly refuse to answer straight, legitimate,
reasonable questions.

Scared of something ... like "being found out?"
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:22 GMT
Yup.

Shivering in my boots.

T-t-t-terri-f-f-fied st-stiff.
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:26 GMT
How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil?

Do you sit at your computer, desperately refreshing the page looking for my
reply, so that you can make up some sort of 'witty' comeback?

You truly do have no life, Neil.

A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy.
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 17:34 GMT
> How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy.

Ouch.  How will I recover?  How ... will ... I  ... recover?

Like Otis: rather than address the substance of an argument, you need
to attack the person presenting the argument.

Also like Otis: you seem blind to the notion that your attacks are
equally true of you.  Wouldn't that tend to render them less effective?
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:47 GMT
>Ouch.  How will I recover?  How ... will ... I  ... recover?

Yes, I'll leave you to ponder over that. Looks like it'll take a while...

>Like Otis: rather than address the substance of an argument, you need
>to attack the person presenting the argument.

Yikes - I smell a hypocrisy  - better evacuate.

>Also like Otis: you seem blind

Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd probably
be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you, yourself, are blind.
Never mind.

>your attacks are equally true of you.  Wouldn't that tend to render them less effective?

It's unfortunate, I know, Neil. But I don't have time to 'evaluate' the
effectiveness of my attacks. I have better things to do. You obviously don't.
A shame.
Scott Seidman - 30 May 2007 18:50 GMT
> Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd
> probably be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you,
> yourself, are blind.

A little odd that people with REAL visual problems tend to have a different
perspective than Batesians

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 20:12 GMT
> Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd probably
> be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you, yourself, are blind.

As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a
newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision.

Though you haven't hurt me (or gotten my Rx right)--I've heard it all
before--you've clearly let your true colors shine through.

Others, I'm sure, will be eager to receive your counsel in the future.
Revival - 30 May 2007 20:50 GMT
---
As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a
newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision.
---

Sorry, Uncle Brookie; I didn't mean to tease you. I was just reminding you
that you are, after all, the blind one. It seemed rather hypocritical that
you should accuse me of being blind. Let's see what it was you wrote on your
lovely jubbly website:

"MY EYES: Though I struggle daily not to let my life be defined by my eyes,
they're--unfortunately--an all too significant component of who I am.  Born
cross-eyed, very farsighted, and with a lot of astigmatism, my eyes have not
stayed straight despite three alignment surgeries. "

There we go.

---
Though you haven't hurt me (or gotten my Rx right)--I've heard it all
before--you've clearly let your true colors shine through.

Others, I'm sure, will be eager to receive your counsel in the future.
---

OH NOES! I'm ever so scared, Neil!

*cough*pathetic...*cough*
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:08 GMT
> ---
> As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> ---

There we go what? What's that proof of? Your misconceptions? Your
misunderstanding? Your lack of knowledge?

> *cough*pathetic...*cough*

Yes, you are rather.

TROLL!

<plonk>

Cya
Simon
Revival - 30 May 2007 21:15 GMT
---
As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a
newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision.
---

What, are you gonna call your wifey DJ to give me a good smacking up the
bottom?

I shiver at the thought!!

O' have mercy!

Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The
Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS.
Revival - 30 May 2007 21:19 GMT
Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!
Ms.Brainy - 30 May 2007 21:33 GMT
> Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!
>
> --
> Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1

A friendly advice:  Get out of here, Revival, together with your 12-yr
old twin, before too late.  You'll be eaten alive otherwise.  Nobody
here has any respect or appreciation of your personal attacks and
flaming, and nobody here is interested in your voodoo preaching.  You
are not welcomed here, if you haven't yet noticed it.  Your continued
posting to this forum is pathetic.  You have no supporters here.  Go
back to where you are wanted, the sooner the better!
Dan Abel - 30 May 2007 22:10 GMT
> > Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!

> A friendly advice:  Get out of here, Revival, together with your 12-yr
> old twin, before too late.  You'll be eaten alive otherwise.

I suspect not.  Such people thrive on creating trouble.  The more
trouble you give him, the happier he will be.

There is only one person in my killfile for this group.  It isn't Otis.  
My newsreader said that there were five messages in this group when I
checked.  Only two survived the filter.  Does it tell you something that
the majority of messages were from one person who has nothing to
contribute?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:17 GMT
>>> Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the majority of messages were from one person who has nothing to
> contribute?

Is it me? I have to know.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 23:31 GMT
> > In article <1180557238.589373.108...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Is it me? I have to know.

look-- you started out by saying you came to this forum to learn.
that was obviously not true because you instead started telling people
that they should try palming and other totally unproven therapies.
now you have just degenerated into nothing but a flaming bandwidth-
sucking troll.  please leave this forum.  you add ZERO value and
instead just pollute every thread with your name-calling and ranting.

please go.  and don't just create another profile name and start
posting again.  please go now.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 23:38 GMT
On May 30, 6:31 pm, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > In article <1180557238.589373.108...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> please go.  and don't just create another profile name and start
> posting again.  please go now.

sorry simon.  this reply is intended for Revival.
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 21:27 GMT
> What, are you gonna call your wifey DJ to give me a good smacking up the
> bottom?

I've always understood that there are risks to using your true
identity on the Internet, but ... because I am honest, forthcoming,
and have nothing to hide, I have taken that chance.  Of course, it's
only you and Otis Brown who have compromised, threatened, or
manipulated information gleaned FROM that trust.

Of course it is.

You, OTOH, have chosen to hide behind multiple identities for some
inexplicable reason (other than: you SHOULD be ashamed).

For the record: you stand a much better chance by dealing with me than
you do if you had to deal with my wife.  Trust me.
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:08 GMT
> ---
> As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The
> Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS.

Are you the 12 year old or his older brother the 13 year old?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:16 GMT
> ---
> As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The
> Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS.

Sooo.... You're based in the UK then....

Obviously UK ISP's take abuse and spamming pretty seriously. Im sure
MedKB also has a few things to say....

Complaints-To: http://www.MedKB.com/Uwe/NB/ReportAbuse.aspx
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:45 GMT
> How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy.

Hmm... He replied six minutes after you, you replied five minutes after.

I think you're the winner in having no life.

Cya
Simon
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 18:07 GMT
> Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
> ' Scared of something, Neil?

Sadly, I don't know anything about the message in question.

I'll put it to you, though:

Just like Otis, you steadfastly refuse to answer straight, legitimate,
reasonable questions.

Scared of something ... like "being found out?"
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:44 GMT
> Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived.
> ' Scared of something, Neil?

For someone who doesn't agree with the methods of Otis, you sure do
spend a lot of time defending him.

Otis is a dangerous troll that you can not discuss anything with.

You might be more educated.

Cya
Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 31 May 2007 03:08 GMT
Dear Revival,

Neil Brooks keeps on insisting that he is not a doctor.

To his credit, he has extensive medical knowledge,
and an exhaustive knowledge of the literature.

No one knows what is "profession" is -- but
he keeps on providing MEDICAL ADVICE.

OK, so he is on course short of a degree
in ophthamology, and not a "doctor".

But he does not want anyone to find out
that he is in medical school, and will
obtain a degree in ophthamology, and
that is why he contiues to post under
"Odis", and other false "capers".

You can judge for yourself the "quality" of
Neil Brooks, and can guess who he is.

Be wise about Neil Brooks.

Otis

> odisbr...@pa.net wrote:
> >Dear PClark,
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neil Brooks - 31 May 2007 03:16 GMT
>Dear Revival,
>
>Neil Brooks keeps on insisting that he is not a doctor.

The fact that I'm not may have something to do with that.

>To his credit, he has extensive medical knowledge,
>and an exhaustive knowledge of the literature.

Why thank you, Otis.  That's very kind.

>No one knows what is "profession" is -- but
>he keeps on providing MEDICAL ADVICE.

If you think that =I= am in violation of some law, then please feel
free to consult with the appropriate authorities.

I don't hurt people.  You do.

>OK, so he is on course short of a degree
>in ophthamology, and not a "doctor".

I've never taken a single course in either medical school OR
ophthalmology.  I have no formal training.

You, OTOH, are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.

>But he does not want anyone to find out
>that he is in medical school, and will
>obtain a degree in ophthamology, and
>that is why he contiues to post under
>"Odis", and other false "capers".

When in doubt, manufacture a story and try to construct facts to
support that story.  If nothing else (which IS the case), you are
consistent.

>You can judge for yourself the "quality" of
>Neil Brooks, and can guess who he is.

True enough.  No guessing required, though.  My life is on my website
for all to see.

>Be wise about Neil Brooks.

Sorry, Uncle Otie.  I don't lie (you do),  I'm not a doctor and I
don't give medical advice (you do).  More importantly, I don't hurt
people (you do).

I have what knowledge about eyes and vision that I do because of
necessity -- the mother of invention.

I've also never been afraid of either the scientific method (you are)
or of questioning my own assumptions (you are) and learning as the
knowledge evolves (you are).

There is an old saying: a fool cannot learn from a wise man, but a
wise man can learn from a fool.

I am a wise man.

You are a fool.

It's THAT simple.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 31 May 2007 04:15 GMT
On May 30, 10:08 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival,
>
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -

Otis,  what is your training that you feel qualified to suggest
therapies to people with vision problems?

And why we are at it, why not explain why young myopes who don't wear
any correction, such as ones that are "on the verge" of myopia at
approximately -0.75 or -1.00, usually end up progressing further into
myopia?  since they aren't corrected they have a net plus optical
power similar to wearing readers.  you ask us to accept your claim
that wearing readers is protective and can even reverse myopia yet in
real-life it isn't true.  why is that?

and why do hyperopes that strain constantly as if they were wearing
excessive "wretched" minus lenses not advance toward myopia (or at
least less hyperopia)?  you ask us to believe that excessive
accommodation causes eye elongation so hyperopes should get better--
but they usually don't.  why is that?

and how come studies that show that excessive minus lenses, when used
in human children, do not cause accelerated myopia development?   you
tell us that it does but there is not study to demonstate that in
humans.  the results, in fact, are opposite to what you claim.

don't run away now Otis.  just try to explain these observations.  how
come there are SO MANY lines of study, and documented statistically-
valid results, that don't agree with your doctrine.  How can a truly
logical person continue to embrace a doctrine that clearly doesn't at
all resemble reality?
otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Jun 2007 04:17 GMT
Dear Revival,

The ID of the "Odis" message is that it is posted
from San Diego, CA.

But Neil Brooks does not want you to find this out,
so he must "cover his tracks".

Otis Brown

> odisbr...@pa.net wrote:
> >Dear PClark,
[quoted text clipped - 100 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 05 Jun 2007 04:23 GMT
On Jun 4, 11:17 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival,
>
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
>
> > - Show quoted text -

wow Otis,  you sure are smart.  you figured that one out real quick.
why not apply your expansive brainpower to answering the open
questions that seem to call into question your beliefs about myopia
prevention?  since you apparently can't and won't address these holes
in your theory, then everyone just obviously concludes that what you
are saying is worthless.

don't you have any pride?  why do you run and hide?
you are an unethical man Otis Brown, Engineer.  Ha!

1.  What is your professional training, or professional experience,
that allows you to give people advise on how to manage their vision
and eyecare problems?  What Optometry, Ophthalmology, or Optics
training and/or experience do you have?

2.  Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and
are therefore walking around with net plus refractive power in their
eye 24/7, do not become less myopic.  This is optically the same as
wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't revert to
emmetropia?  Why is it that they oftentimes become even more myopic?
Your "theory" predicts the opposite!

3.  How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do
not become more myopic (=less hyperopic) over time?  They are
straining to see, in exactly the same way that others do who get very
close to their reading material.  And they do it 24/7.  And it's
optically the same as wearing glasses that are overminused.  Your
theory predicts their refraction should change, but it doesn't.
Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40.  How can
that be Otis?  Unless your theory is wrong!

4.  How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom
Physiol Opt. Feb; 61(2):85-93, 1984) children who were intentionally
overminused did not become myopic any more than children who wore
their proper spectacle prescription?  Your "theory" predicts the
opposite!  You claim that the "wretched minus" would cause them to
plunge deeper into the despair of myopia.  Yet it doesn't seem to work
that way.  Why?

5.  How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave
them slightly myopic even with their glasses on, they continued to
develop myopia, and actually at an accelerated rate (Chung K, Mohidin
N, O'Leary DJ. Undercorre