Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2007
A Beautiful Story
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Revival - 28 May 2007 14:19 GMT Fellow community of sci.med.vision,
The following is an account of a natural vision restoration by relaxation treatment. Perhaps it will be of special interest to sufferers of the hypermetropic eye disorder (including Neil) among our group. -
"Ten days ago, I discovered Dr. Bates, his book, his method and iblindness.org. With glasses, Day 1, I began reading Dr. Bakes' book. It made so much sense to me that I immediately tried palming as Dr. Bates instructed and experienced very short clear flashing. I took off my glasses and decided I would never put them on again unless absolutely necessary. Dr. Bates completely convinced me that my near- vision could be restored. On Day 2, I continued to read Dr. Bates book and also began to practice Bates Method and convergence using Dr. Gottlieb's Presbyopia Reduction Chart. On Day 3, when outside in the sunshine and without glasses, I was astounded to find myself reading and seeing clearly with near-vision. However, when I went indoors, my near-vision blurred again.
On Day 4, I decided to dedicate all my free time to Bates Method and improve my vision as rapidly as possible. At this point, I began sunning and continued combining Bates Method with convergence practice. When working with eye charts indoors, blurring diminished, but on Day 5, I started experiencing refraction errors. I began imagining letters with perfect white halos and by Day 7 all the astigmatic-type refraction errors ceased. I was spending 6-9 hours a day practicing Bates Method both indoors and outdoors.
Fortunately, I work at home, so my schedule is very flexible. I dropped everything except absolutely necessary work on the computer and set my monitors to lowest resolution so as to be able to work without glasses. Even so the screen was blurry, so I increased browser text size to enormous. This is enormously inconvenient and my work takes twice as long to accomplish, but I only resort to glasses for when absolutely necessary, and less and less frequently. When working on computer, I practice palming, shifting and flashing to clear vision.
On Day 7, while alternating convergence and palming, I imagined along these lines: here we are, the three of us, ego, mind and eyes. I told my mind, just see how dear eyes, through no fault of their own, but due to our own ignorance, have been locked in behind glasses for twelve years. Now we know that dear eyes are perfect and always were perfect. Mind and eyes, you are one but have both suffered from being separated. I (ego) now give up trying to force eyes to see. Mind, you are the seer! I am returning eyes to your care, so please remember how you used to see and assist eyes by relearning how control the muscles and nerves that help eyes to do what always did so well. Now I am just going to imagine black, and you, mind, are now completely free to restore eyes to their naturally perfect shape and function. Mind was very responsive to this coaching. Intermittently during this session, I experienced almost-electrical impulses stimulating my eye muscles. These sensations arose at intervals with a regularity that reminded me of childbirth labor contractions. These sensations were accompanied by what felt like gritty particles being dislodged and released from around and behind my eyeballs. I made sure to breathe and relax through the process so as to not interpret any discomfort from these sensations as pain that might interfere with what my mind was accomplishing. I understood that my mind was reestablishing its connection with eyes. Although I remained emotionally calm and just observed what was happening, tears poured from my eyes and snot from my nose. Since this session, my vision clearing is considerably faster, and every clearing brings incremental lasting improvement.
Since Day 3, clearing of my vision in sunlight has never diminished but only improved. Any blurring on computer and under indoor lighting improves with frequent palming. I continue combining Bates Method with convergence practice. Last night, Day 9, I began to be able to read in bright indoor lighting.
When I started wearing glasses, my only problem was reading small print within arms-length distance, but during the twelve years my eyes were locked in their glasses prison, my near-vision gradually receded to the point where objects and print many feet or yards away were blurry. Since taking off my glasses and practicing Bates Method, every day the range of clarity approaches nearer, as if my near-vision is "coming at me".
Thanks to Bates Method, I begun experiencing astounding depth perception, nuances of shadow, light and sunlight, colors and details that I had been deprived of by glasses. Now when I work with my eye charts and, as I begin to read indoors again, I know how to clear my vision and transform gray into black and white and how to bring into sharp focus any blur. And my recovery of perfect imagination has only just begun! I really did not expect such fast improvement from Bates Method, but here I am reading without glasses and relearning to see with my imagination.
Funny thing the other day, a glasses-wearing photographer told me it is not possible that my near-vision recovery could be really happening. I asked him if he meant that for twelve years, even when my glasses weren't on my nose, I was only imagining I had lost my near- vision? "Yes," he said, "it's all in your imagination." haha! "That's exactly right," I told him, "and that's why the Bates Method works!" "This is all very interesting," he replied, "but I've got to run.""
Posted at: http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,520.0.html
You may also be interested in her full success story at: http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,514.0.html
Enjoy,
-Revival
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 14:53 GMT > The following is an account of a natural vision restoration by > relaxation treatment. Perhaps it will be of special interest to > sufferers of the hypermetropic eye disorder (including Neil) among our > group. - Unverifiable, third-hand anecdotes are of no use/interest to anybody here, generally.
There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing stuff. You may want to consider going to one of those, instead.
Hypermetropic Neil
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:07 GMT "There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing stuff. "
The cure of imperfect sight by treatment without glasses is not faith based.
'Dr. Bates' method is purely scientific, no new age, no alternative medicine, no smelly stuff like that. You do need faith - the faith in yourself - but no more than for any other your intention to manifest in life.' - Oleg K.
http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,403.msg1676.html#msg1676
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:15 GMT > "There are plenty of other sites for that sort of faith-based healing > stuff. " > > The cure of imperfect sight by treatment without glasses is not faith based. Saying it doesn't make it so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:23 GMT "Saying it doesn't make it so."
Of course.
Seeing for yourself that the methods work, does, however, 'make it so'.
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:30 GMT > "Saying it doesn't make it so." > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > -- > Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1 Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me. I knew nothing of it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded teachers in Southern California, did all the homework, and ... nothing.
I've met nobody since whose results differed dramatically from mine.
Also, seeing for yourself does NOT make it so. Mike Tyner still maintains that his front yard is elephant-free BECAUSE he uses elephant repellent spray on a daily basis.
Do you think that's why Mike has an elephant free yard?
You might. Most wouldn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:42 GMT "Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me. I knew nothing of it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded teachers in Southern California"
Nine months?
It takes 1 minute to see true noticeable improvement - no more.
One single minute.
"found the most highly-regarded teachers in Southern California"
And there's your mistake.
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:45 GMT > "Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me. I knew nothing of > it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It takes 1 minute to see true noticeable improvement - no more. Ah, got it. Thanks. I'll call about a refund.
> "found the most highly-regarded > teachers in Southern California" > > And there's your mistake. True. I should have consulted you and your peers to find a quack.
Next time ... I promise.
Revival - 28 May 2007 22:13 GMT Neil Brooks,
Subject: Reasons for Orthodox Disapproval & Charlatanism
"True. I should have consulted you and your peers to find a quack. Next time ... I promise."
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First Questions
You are no doubt already wondering: "What is the Bates method, and if it is so marvelous why haven't I heard about it before?"
Briefly, the method is a way of re-educating the eyesight. Errors of refraction (that is, of focusing) are regarded as temporary regulatory powers of the body, can be reduced in severity or eliminated altogether.
As to why you haven't heard about it before, there are several reasons. The first and most important is the attitude of the medical profession. In our culture we have come to rely too heavily on the theoretical approach to medicine. No cure can be truly acceptable unless and until there is a theory to explain it. The theory accounting for refractive error is the work of the German scientist Hermann von Helmholtz (1821-94), whose contribution to the study of the nervous system still dominates modern thinking. Helmholtz's theory states that the eye accommodates (changes focus for far and near objects) by means of changes in the shape of the lens. If the lens or its muscle system is faulty, or if the eyeball is congenitally malformed, then refractive errors will arise. Although there is now even some controversy over the exact mechanism by which the lens changes its shape, orthodox science has never questioned the basic tenet of the Helmholtz theory: that it is the lens which is solely responsible for changing the focal length of the eye.
The theory is eminently reasonable. It seems to be borne out by the anatomy of the eye. Among older people, who progressively lose elasticity of the lens, refractive error is assumed to be an inevitable concomitant of the passing years, so much so that graphs have been drawn showing loss of accommodation with increasing age. Furthermore it is actually possible to see changes in the curvature of the lens: reflections in the front and back surfaces may be observed by using a small flashlight. These Purkinje images, as they are called, are taken as the next best thing to observing the act of accommodation in a cross-sectioned living eye. And, as further evidence in support of the Helmholtz theory, science would cite the apparent case with which glasses correct optical errors.
Another serious obstacle to acceptance of the Bates method was the personality of W.H. Bates himself. Having found empirically that the Helmholtz theory was lacking, he was far too quick to formulate a rival theory. Bates's proposal was that the eye accommodates, not by a change in the shape of the lens, but by a change in the shape of the eyeball itself, this change being brought about by the six extrinsic muscles which control the movement of the eye in its socket. Such an idea was rejected as nonsense, the more so when Bates adduced less- than-convincing evidence in some of his scientific papers dealing with accommodation in professional hostility. His insights into the psychology of vision were ignored, as were the successes he achieved in his consulting room.These successes convinced him he was right and his colleagues wrong; he became more and more exasperated, and the dogmatic tone of his *Perfect Sight Without Glasses* verges, in places, on the aggressive. This did little to win over his critics.
The Bates method was served no better by some of the people who set themselves up as teachers. For every conscientious teacher of the method there were several who understood nothing whatever about it and saw in it only a means of exploiting the desperate patients whom orthodoxy had failed. In consequence, any suggestion that there might be something in visual re-education is now dismissed as outright quackery.
This attitude of the opthalmic profession has perhaps, in part, consciously or otherwise, been influenced by another consideration. Although by no means all members of the profession profit from the trade in glasses, there is no question but that there is a huge vested interest in the correctness of the Helmholtz theory.
Yet another obstacle stands in the way of the Bates method. It is so easy for the instant solution that few people give the method a fair chance. The person who has improved his or her vision is such a rarity that few opticians will have encountered any evidence that the method works. Those cases that have come to light have certainly been explained as examples of anomalous but spontaneous improvement which would have happened anyway.
The final obstacle to acceptance of the method is the curious nature of refractive errors and the perpetuating effect that glasses have on them. Glasses tend to fix and make permanent errors that would otherwise, in time, correct themselves. The longer glasses are worn, the more intransigent the errors become, and the less believable it becomes that they could ever be cured.
And yet, despite all these difficulties, the method persists. It enjoyed special popularity in the 1930s and 1940s, particularly after its enthusiastic endorsement by the writer Aldous Huxley, whose book on the method, *The Art of Seeing* (Chatto and Windus, 1943), has rarely been out of print since. There have been other books too, of varying quality. In one of the better ones, published in 1957, the Bates teacher C.A. Hackett analyzes the results of 10 years' work in which she treated 2180 cases of refractive error. Of these, over 75 percent achieved lasting improvement, of whom about 45 per cent (over a third of all students) were able to do without their glasses entirely.
It is my hope - even conviction - that future generations will regard the wholesale dispensing of glasses as yet another pitiable example of a misguided fashion in medicine, as quaint as wholesale bloodletting or trepanning, and almost as barbarous.
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- Jonathon Barnes
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A Method of Visual Re-Education
In the early years of the 20th century Dr W.H. Bates, a New York oculist, became dissatisfied with the ordinary symptomatic treatment of eyes. Seeking a substitute for artificial lenses, he set himself to discover if there was any way of re-educating defective vision into a condition of normality.
As a result of his work with a large number of patients he came to the conclusion that the great majority of visual defects were functional and due to faulty habits of use. These faulty habits of use were invariably related, he found, to a condition of strain and tension. As was to be expected from the unitary nature of the human organism, strain affected both the body and the mind.
Dr. Bates discovered that, by means of appropriate techniques, this condition of strain could be relieved. When it had been relieved - when patient had learnt to use their eyes and mind in a relaxed way - vision was improved and refractive errors tended to correct themselves. Practice in the educational techniques served to build up good seeing habits in place of the faulty habits responsible for defective vision, and in many cases function came to be completely and permanently normalized.
Now, it is a well-established physiological principle that improved functioning always tends to result in an improvement in the organic condition of the tissues involved. The eye, Dr. Bates discovered, was no exception to this general rule. When the patient learn to relax his tenseness and acquired proper seeing habits, the *vis medicatrix naturae* was given a chance to operate - with the result that, in many cases, the improvement of functioning was followed by a complete restoration of the health and organic integrity of the diseased eye.
Dr Bates died in 1931, and up to this time of his death he continued to perfect and develop his methods for the improvement of visual function. Furthermore, during the last years of Dr Bates' life and since his death, his pupils, in various parts of the world, have developed a number of valuable new applications of the general principles which he laid down. By means of these techniques large number of men, women and children, suffering from visual defects of every kind, have successfully re-educated into normality or towards normality. For anyone who has studies a selection of these cases, or who has himself undergone the process of visual re-education, it is impossible to doubt that here at last is a method of treating imperfect sight which is not merely symptomatic, but genuinely aetiological - a method which does not confine itself to the mechanical neutralization of defects but aims at the removal of their physiological and psychological causes. And yet, in spite of the long period during which it has been known, in spite of the quality and quantity of the results obtained through its employment by competent instructors. Dr Bates' own technique still remains unrecognized by the medical and optometrical professions. It is, I think, worth while, before going any further, to enumerate and discuss the principal reasons for this, to my mind, deplorable state of things.
Reasons for Orthodox Disapproval
In the first place, the very fact that the method is unrecognized and lies outside the pale of orthodoxy is a sufficient invitation to the petty adventurers and charlatans who hang upon the skirts of society, ever ready and eager to take advantage of human suffering. There exist, scattered about the world, some scores or perhaps hundreds of well-trained and thoroughly conscientious teachers of Dr Bates' method. But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system that its name.The fact is deplorable, but not at all surprising. The number of those who fail to obtain relief from the current symptomatic treatment of visual defect is considerable, and the Bates Method has a high reputation for effectiveness in such cases. Moreover, the technique is unorthodox, therefore no standards of competence are legally imposed upon its teachers. A large potential clientèle, a desperate need of help, and no questions asked as to knowledge, character and ability! These are the ideal conditions for the practice of charlatanism. What wonder, then, if certain unscrupulous people have taken advantage of the opportunities thus offered? But because *some* unorthodox practitioners are charlatans, it does not logically follow that *all* must be. I repeat that it does not logically follow; but, alas, as the history of almost any professional group clearly demonstrates, orthodox opinion would always very much like it to follow. That is one of the reasons why, in this particular case, the unwarranted assumption that the whole business is mere quackery is widely accepted, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. The cure for charlatanism is not the suppression of an intrinsically sound method, but proper education for, and control of, its teachers. Proper education and control are equally the cure for that licensed charlatanism among opticians, which has been described and denounced in articles appearing in *The Reader's Digest* (1937) and the New York *World-Telegram* (1942).
The second reason for the non-acceptance of the method may be summed up in three words: habit, authority and professionalism. The symptomatic treatment of defective sight has been going on for a long time, has been carried to a high degree of perfection, and within its limitations, is reasonably successful. If it fails in a certain proportion of cases to provide even adequate palliation of the symptoms, that is nobody's fault, but a condition inherent in the nature of things. For years, the highest medical authorities have all asserted this to be the case - and who will venture to question a recognized authority?
Certainly not the members of the profession to which the authority belongs. Every guild and trade has its own *esprit de corps*, its private patriotism, which makes it resent all rebellion from within and all competition or criticism from without.
Next there is the matter of vested interest. The manufacture of optical glass is now a considerable industry, and its retail sale, a profitable branch of commerce, to which access can be had only be persons who have had a special technical training. That there should be, among these licensed persons, a strong dislike to any new technique, which threatens to make the use of optical glass unnecessary, is only natural. (It is perhaps, worth remarking that, even if the value of Dr Bates' techniques were generally recognized, there would be small likelihood of any immediate or considerable decline in the consumption of optical glass. Visual re-education demands from the pupil a certain amount of thought, time and trouble. But thought, time and trouble are precisely what the overwhelming majority of men and women are not prepared to give, unless motivated by a passionate desire or an imperious need. Most of those who can get along more a less satisfactorily with the help of mechanical seeing- aids, will continue to do so, even when they know that there exists a system of training which would make it possible for them, not merely to palliate symptoms, but actually get rid of the causes of visual defect. So long as the art of seeing is not taught to children as a part of their normal education, the trade in artificial lenses is not likely to suffer more than a trifling loss by reason of the official recognition of the new technique. Human sloth and inertia will guarantee the opticians at least nine-tenths of their present business.)
Another reason for the orthodox attitude in this matter is of a strictly empirical nature. Oculists and optometrists affirm that they have never witnessed the phenomena of self-regulation and cure described by Bates and his followers. therefore they conclude that such phenomena never take place. In this syllogism the premises are true, but the conclusion is unsound. It is quite true that oculists and optometrists have never observed such phenomena as are described by Bates and his followers. But this is because they have never had any dealing with patients who had learned to use their organs of vision in a relaxed, unstrained way. So long as the organs of vision are used under a condition of mental and physical tension, the *vis medicatrix naturae* will not manifest itself, and the visual defects will persist, or actually become worse. Oculists and optometrists will observe the phenomena described by Bates as soon as they relieve the strain in their patients' eyes by means of Bates's method of visual education. Because the phenomena cannot occur under the conditions imposed by orthodox practitioners, it does not follow that they will not occur when these conditions are changed, so that the healing powers of the organism are no longer hindered, but given free play.
To this empirical reason for rejecting the Batesian technique must be added one more - this time in the realm of theory. In the course of his practice as an oculist, Dr Bates came to doubt the truth of the currently accepted hypothesis regarding the eye's power of accommodation to near and distant vision. This matter was for long the subject of heated debate, until finally, a couple of generations ago, orthodox medical opinion decided in favor of the Helmholtz hypothesis, which attributes the eye's power of accommodation to the action of the ciliary muscle upon the lens. Working with cases of defective vision, Dr Bates observed a number of facts which the Helmholtz theory seemed powerless to explain. After numerous experiments on animals and human beings, he came to the conclusion that the principal factor in accommodation was not the lens, but the extrinsic muscles of the eyeball, and that was the focusing of the eye for near and distant objects was accomplished by the lengthening and shortening of the globe as a whole. The papers describing his experiments were printed in various medical journals at the time, and have been summarized in the opening chapters of his book, *Perfect Sight Without Glasses* (see: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Perfect_Sight_Without_Glasses ).
Whether Dr. Bates was right or wrong in his rejection of the Helmholtz theory of accommodation, I am entirely unqualified to say. My own guess, after reading the evidence, would be that both the extrinsic muscles and the lens play their part in accommodation.
This guess may be correct, or it may be incorrect. I do not greatly care. For my concern is not with the anatomical mechanism of accommodation, but with the art of seeing - and the art of seeing does not stand or fall with any particular physiological hypothesis. Believing that Bates' theory of accommodation was untrue, the orthodox have concluded that his technique of visual education must be unsound. Once again this is an unwarranted conclusion, due to a failure to understand the nature of an art, or psycho-physical skill.
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- Aldous Huxley, The Art of Seeing, Ch.2, Pg 6-11
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Thank you for taking the time to read my post.
Warm regards,
-Revival
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 22:34 GMT [snip]
Sorry ... what? I nodded off for a bit there.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 23:20 GMT > [snip] > > Sorry ... what? I nodded off for a bit there. Lord, give me strength.
DrG
spammer - 28 May 2007 23:47 GMT The bates method is truly a way of separating a fool and their money.
Revival - 29 May 2007 13:06 GMT ---
Sorry ... what? I nodded off for a bit there.
---
Okay, I will give you a short summary of what I wrote -
According to you -
"Nine months of Bates teaching did nothing for me. I knew nothing of it, went in with passion and optimism, found the most highly-regarded teachers in Southern California, did all the homework, and nothing. "
Upon reading this, I figured that something isn't right. Seeing as it only takes a minute to see for yourself a real improvement, when you say: 'nine months of bates teaching did nothing for me', I read: 'For nine months I was scammed as a victim of charlatanism'.
Basically, there exist, scattered across the world, many true followers of Bates' original method of visual re-education. Unfortunately for us true followers, for every one of us, there are about a hundred people who know nothing, absolutely nothing, about the true art of seeing, other than its name - 'bates method'. These people take many different forms in order to extract money from desperate people who will do anything for a cure, for example 'See Clearly Method' - which has nothing, nothing whatsoever, to do with bates's methods. These people *are* the 'scammers', 'con artists', and so on, that you describe. We are in no way associated with such evildoers.
I repeat, we do not support 'see clearly method', nor 'plus lens prevention', nor 'super vision tablet pills'. 'The Cure of Imperfect Sight by Relaxation Treatment' devised by a certain man, is, as the name suggest, not a 'prevention', but a 'cure'. We do not believe there is a 'threshold' of vision after which it is 'too late' to cure yourself. We do not believe that if you 'sit on your butt too long, there's no going back'. There is NO such thing! There is no 'point' beyond 20/70, after which the cure is impossible. It is never too late!! Do not confuse our methods with that of Otis.
Now it makes me sad, very very sad, to know that so many people are suffering SO unnecessarily! The cure is right in front of you! Why do you over complicate problems where the solution is SO simple! Kiesling puts it very nicely -
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The core of the Bates method is so simple that when someone through practice of the exercises comes into complete realization of what they are doing to their eyes to cause the blurred vision, and the realization that everyone else out there has the same problem, it is absolutely shocking. It's shocking that the epidemic has gotten as bad as it has and that there is such worldwide denial of the incredibly simple cause of every form of blurred vision, that this problem you've had for years and years disappears simply by relieving the built-up chronic strain around your eyes.
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- http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,511.msg2324.html#msg2324
Dr. Leukoma - 29 May 2007 13:35 GMT > --- > [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > -- > Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1 Let me see if I have this straight:
Hyperopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes. Myopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes. Astigmatism is caused by built-up strain around the eyes. Presbyopia is caused by built-up strain around the eyes. Etc.
Also, seeing is an art, like hearing, touching, smelling. One needs to learn how to do it?
DrG
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2007 13:48 GMT > thing! There is no 'point' beyond 20/70, after which the cure is > impossible. > It is never too late!! Do not confuse our methods with that of Otis. And you'd also prefer we don't confuse you with technical details like control groups, t-tests, and efficacy.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
-MT
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 15:11 GMT > --- > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Okay, I will give you a short summary of what I wrote - [snip]
Nope. Didn't work. Nodded off again. Sorry.
Revival - 28 May 2007 23:49 GMT To make a small correction in the fourth paragraph of 'First Questions' -
"science would cite the apparent [case] with which glasses correct optical errors. "
'case' should have been 'ease'.
Apologies.
spammer - 28 May 2007 23:51 GMT > To make a small correction in the fourth paragraph of 'First Questions' - > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -- You can correct any paragraph you choose, but the bates method is just a scam.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 29 May 2007 00:56 GMT > Neil Brooks, > [quoted text clipped - 185 lines] > > read more » do you really think anybody here is reading your bandwidth-wasting, hard drive-choking, bull$hit post?
are you masturbating and giggling while you post this crap, thinking that you are annoying everyone in this newsgroup?
you are a pathetic, mentally-disturbed dweeb. go back to your faith- healing internet forum and discuss the effects of colonic cleansing on refractive error changes in pre-pubescent males. this forum is about science, medicine, and vision.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 15:37 GMT near-
> vision could be restored. On Day 2, I continued to read Dr. Bates book > and also began to practice Bates Method and convergence using Dr. > Gottlieb's Presbyopia Reduction Chart. On Day 3, when outside in the > sunshine and without glasses, I was astounded to find myself reading > and seeing clearly with near-vision. However, when I went indoors, my > near-vision blurred again. Simple optical explanation. The pupil constricts in bright light, thereby increasing depth of focus and reducing aberrations, i.e. nature's pinhole camera. As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in bright light as well.
DrG
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 15:42 GMT > near- > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > nature's pinhole camera. As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in > bright light as well. Dr. G-
I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false cause to something he/she experienced, right?
<grin>
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 16:07 GMT > I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't > suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false > cause to something he/she experienced, right? No. I am suggesting that the subject obviously did not have any understanding of visual science and phyiological optics, and therefore was unable to entertain a scientific explanation for the experience. Instead of telling someone that pupil constriction can reduce the aberrations, you tell them something about the marvelous vision restorative benefits of natural sunlight. But, it is quite possible that Bates didn't know this. Perhaps he also didn't know of the accommodative/convergence/miosis triad, or of accommodative infacility, or the relationship between lenticular astigmatism and accommodation. Therefore, he invented other naturalistic/holistic explanations to explain the phenomena.
DrG
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 16:08 GMT > > I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't > > suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DrG Note the <grin> in my post. I knew what you meant ... and applaud it.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2007 16:12 GMT > > > I've always admired and respected you, but ... surely you aren't > > > suggesting that the author of the story may have attributed a false [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I couldn't tell if the <grin> applied to the explanation or the "admired and respected..."
<grin>
DrG
Revival - 28 May 2007 15:57 GMT Dr G,
"Simple optical explanation. The pupil constricts in bright light, thereby increasing depth of focus and reducing aberrations, i.e. nature's pinhole camera. As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in nature's pinhole camera. As a presbyope, my near vision is clearer in bright light as well."
"Well it may or may not be what we call a clear flash, a real improvement in vision and not just the effect of bright light. One of the best ways to tell which is is by how your eyes feel. If they feel more strained, then it isn't a clear flash. However, if they feel strangely different, more relaxed, more open, more loose, something along those lines, then it's a pretty good bet it's a real clear flash." - Kiesling
http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,506.msg2296.html#msg2296
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 16:11 GMT > Dr G, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > http://www.iblindness.org/forum/index.php/topic,506.msg2296.html#msg2296 Oh ... a guy named Dave said it on his own website; therefore, it must be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_assertion
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2007 17:18 GMT Dear Revival,
Subject: Respect for scientific facts concerning the natural eye's behavior.
Perhaps these majority-opinion ODs do not understand the preventive second-opinion, because they have not a clue about Bates. Here is some more supporting information.
http://www.central-fixation.com/bettereyesight.htm
I think the majority-opinion "problem" is that they believe that EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD must be a quick-fix in five minutes OR ELSE.
Thus the equate simplistic quick-fixing with fundamental science.
And it is impossible to reduce science into both a quick-fix and true-prevention.
The concepts contradict each other -- PROFOUNDLY.
But if you realize this, and feel "empowered" to clear your Snellen, pass the DMV leve visual acutiy tests, then their is no need to accept this majority-opinion abuse.
Think for youself. Act wisely. And clear your vision before you even start with that wretched minus.
Enjoy prevention! Because if you don't take care of it, then the minus lens must be used as the default.
Otis
> Dr G, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > -- > Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1 Neil Brooks - 28 May 2007 17:34 GMT On May 28, 9:18 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Think for youself. Act wisely. And clear your > vision before you even start with that wretched minus. > > Enjoy prevention! Because if you don't take care of > it, then the minus lens must be used as the default. But ... your niece, Joy Benson, never wore the minus lens, DID use the plus lens, and is now a myope with a restricted driver's license.
What happened there, Uncle Otie?
Why can't we talk about it??
Revival - 28 May 2007 17:46 GMT "Why can't we talk about it??"
Because it is unrelated to the current discussion.
spammer - 28 May 2007 20:29 GMT > "Why can't we talk about it??" > > Because it is unrelated to the current discussion. That would be too bad. How 'bout those Cleveland Indians ?
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 28 May 2007 18:50 GMT > Fellow community of sci.med.vision, > [quoted text clipped - 101 lines] > > -Revival Revival = Kaze = William H Bates
Otis is dragging his troll buddies into this newsgroup again.
this newsgroup is about "science" and "medicine" and "vision". your fairy-tale alternative medicine stuff is NOT what this newsgroup is about. go back to your little iblindness forum and post happy messages back and forth to each other. we could care less about your fiction.
Revival - 29 May 2007 00:00 GMT "But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system [that] its name."
'that' should have been 'than'.
Again, apologies, at the time of writing I had not expected there to be so many mistakes.
"You can correct any paragraph you choose, but the bates method is just a scam. "
Let us define a 'scam'. According to Wikipedia:
'A confidence trick, confidence game, or con for short (also known as a scam) is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the mark) usually with the goal of financial or other gain. The confidence trickster, con man, scam artist or con artist often works with an accomplice called the shill, who tries to encourage the mark by pretending to believe the trickster. ...'
And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method. Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet.
spammer - 29 May 2007 00:05 GMT > "But there are also, unfortunately, a number of ignorant and > unscrupulous quacks, who know little more of the system [that] its [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method. > Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet. Define it any way you want, a scam is a scam is a scam.
DoctorRick - 29 May 2007 01:08 GMT >And yet, there is no money to be made from promotion of the Bates method. >Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet. So what? Just because its free doesn't mean its valid. In this case, its worth about what you pay for it -- zero.
Simon Dean - 29 May 2007 19:03 GMT > Many of the significant books are available entirely for free on the internet. "financial or other gain"
Nut.
Revival - 29 May 2007 19:17 GMT ""financial or other gain"
There is no other gain, except for the satisfaction of knowing that we might just have stopped the unnecessary suffering of a fellow human being. The satisfaction of knowing that we have not, unlike the current mainstream medicine, sent them into a lifetime of completely unnecessary dependence on glasses Or, better described as 'a lifetime of hell'. The satisfaction of knowing that, when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable sate of affairs, that we will be able to say: 'told ya so ;-)'.
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 19:21 GMT > There is no other gain, except for the satisfaction of knowing that we might > just have stopped the unnecessary suffering of a fellow human being. Right off the bat, I can think of a few dozen people in whom you're INDUCING unnecessary suffering....
Simon Dean - 29 May 2007 19:36 GMT > ""financial or other gain" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > knowing that, when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable > sate of affairs, that we will be able to say: 'told ya so ;-)'. Unfortunately, the problem is, people like you and Otis are without liability. You come here, to a newsgroup where the prerequisites are Science and Medicine and you spout your own personal anecdotes with no independent qualified backup.
No one minds that you have a second opinion, or that you even voice your opinion, but it's the way you do it, to often frightened and scared individuals worried about their eye sight.
You don't care. You don't know them! You also don't have any issues about liability - if something should go wrong.
You and Otis are not medically trained (I don't know about you, but considering you don't know the difference between a retinoscope and that other machine and are here saying you and Otis know best, frankly is quite concerning).
But it's true. You guys don't know everything.
It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a question, he goes off on a tangent.
He posted some graphs here a couple years back, and it took me about five days of keep asking him the same question to find out what the ranges on the graphs are and just what the graphs were supposed to represent.
It is a danger that people, with SERIOUS problems, will come here and you and Otis will offer bad advice without knowing the SERIOUS situation. Oh I know, because there's more to vision than the eyes, eg Diabetes, Thyroid conditions, even Brain issues such as MS can affect vision.
Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "Im not a doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this".
It wouldn't hurt.
But he won't do it.
Of course, "when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable sate of affairs", I take it that's in relation to the truth that hasn't been seen for 100 years?
I'd love to see what you make out of my situation, having gone from slightly long sighted to slightly short sighted despite wearing plus lenses (whatever happened to that preventative medicine eh?). A couple years back I experienced blurry vision, a halo effect around text, text jumping off the paper at me.
I've been for more tests than you could possibly realise.
You don't care do you.
Cya Simon
Revival - 29 May 2007 20:55 GMT ---
considering you don't know the difference between a retinoscope and that other machine and are here saying you and Otis know best, frankly is quite concerning
---
That was a question asked by my 12 year old younger brother ;-)
---
It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a question, he goes off on a tangent.
---
Although we are both 'second opinion', my remarks are not that of Otis.
---
But it's true. You guys don't know everything.
---
True. Never said I did.
---
Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "I'm not a doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this".
---
I will add this disclaimer onto my posts if it makes you happy.
---
Of course, "when opthalmology finally sees the truth of this deplorable sate of affairs"
---
'sate' should have been 'state'. Apologies.
---
I take it that's in relation to the truth that hasn't been seen for 100 years?
--
Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an 'ignored' truth.
---
I'd love to see what you make out of my situation, having gone from slightly long sighted to slightly short sighted despite wearing plus lenses (whatever happened to that preventative medicine eh?).
---
I do not advocate the 'preventive' approach as promoted by Otis. Anyway, that isn't even how plus prevention works, where the patient starts off myopic, then uses a plus lens to cure himself. I do not know how exactly this works (if it does work), nor do I support such methods.
---
I've been for more tests than you could possibly realise.
---
Congratulations.
---
You don't care do you.
---
What, you want a hug or something?
---
You come here, to a newsgroup where the prerequisites are science and medicine
---
Well, I have two of the prerequisites: medicine.vision. And it's only a matter of time before I acquire the third, you watch me! When I get older, I will prove you all wrong!! >;-(
Ms.Brainy - 29 May 2007 21:03 GMT Didn't you say you came here to learn?
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 94 lines] > -- > Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1 Dr. Leukoma - 29 May 2007 21:07 GMT > Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth > everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it > is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an > 'ignored' truth. "Billions and billions."
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2007 21:35 GMT > Not an 'unseen' truth as such. There are more people awakening to the truth > everyday, every second, as we speak. More and more people seeing how easy it > is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an > 'ignored' truth. Got any objective, verifiable, evidence of these people improving their vision (other than relieving accommodative spasm, which--as I've said countless times--can be done safely, quickly, and easily with periocular warming?
If not, then you're still spouting uncorroborated, anecdotal crap. This just isn't the newsgroup for that. Why can't you, Otis, or your 12 year old sibling understand that??
There are a dozen other venues that are geared toward alternative/ natural vision improvement. Why must you troll here?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:53 GMT > --- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --- Would you please stop making replies like this? It's tiresome to read on a newsgroup. Your 12 year old brother appears to be using the same handle as you, and it would also explain the "text speak" that he uses. I advise you get your own handle.
> It is impossible to get a straight answer out of Otis, you ask him a > question, he goes off on a tangent. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > --- Yes, this is why I said it is impossible to get an answer out of Otis. You'll notice I used Otis's name specifically. However, I see you've just gone off on a tangent yourself, replying to something I havent said about yourself. So perhaps you and Otis are not that dissimilar?
> But it's true. You guys don't know everything. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > --- No, but people like you and Otis (Ok, maybe not you) postulate as if you did.
> Perhaps if Otis was to change the way he made advice, such as "I'm not a > doctor, and recommend you see your doctor to discuss this". > > --- > > I will add this disclaimer onto my posts if it makes you happy. Now, can you convince Otis? Even if he just suggests "talk about this second opinion with your Doctor". Of course, Otis's response will be, Doctor doesn't know anything, it's all a conspiracy. Woooo... Follow me.... Follow me to enlightenment or be damned forever, your children deserve to have their eyes gouged out and never to see again if you follow the "majority opinion" "minus lens".
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 'sate' should have been 'state'. Apologies. That's OK, Im not net police. I make enough of my own mistakes and I deplore those who resort to those tactics, no matter how fun it might be.
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is to cure imperfect sight. So more accurately, I would rephrase this as an > 'ignored' truth. Truth? What truth? Does one size really fit all? Your methods I gather are that of the great, Horatio "quack" Bates? How do you know your advice will work, that there isn't something more? The likes of you and Otis are those that will stop someone going to a doctor, or an optician, and even finding potentially serious conditions.
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > isn't even how plus prevention works, where the patient starts off myopic, > then uses a plus lens to cure himself. Well prevantitive would involve wearing the plus before becoming myopic to prevent myopia. At least in Otis's fantasy. Clearly this isn't true for everybody as even I, as a computer programmer, held back from myopia for a good what, ooh, twenty years?
> I do not know how exactly this works > (if it does work), nor do I support such methods. Hold on? Havent I seen you defending Otis? Apologies if that wasn't you? Maybe it was your younger 12 year old brother. How old are you then? 13? 15?
> --- > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What, you want a hug or something? No no... Just proving that you don't care about science, or medicine, don't care about any possible underlying factors, and possibly like Otis, don't care about the many many tests and physical and mental phenomena present in eye issues... as long as you can sell your palming, your books, your plus lenses, you couldn't give a crap.
Does yours or Otis's expertise stretch to advising me on my issue?
I've been for MRI's, electrical tests for migraine, worth 4 dot tests, bagolini tests, maddox red line tests etc etc etc.
Know what those are?
Cya Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 30 May 2007 05:01 GMT Dear Revival,
Subject: Just the scientific facts.
As you know, Bates deplored the over-prescribed minus.
Science now confirms that the eye will change its refractive STATE when you place a strong minus on it:
http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/FundEye.html
But of course, the majority-opinion ODs will DENY objective scientific facts and truth, and concoct their own "story" that this is not THEIR science.
But let us just call the objection to an over-prescribed minus the second-opinion. But science does support the concept of prevention.
Otis
> ""financial or other gain" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Message posted viahttp://www.medkb.com Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 06:10 GMT On May 29, 9:01 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Subject: Just the scientific facts. The "fact" is that you won't answer these perfectly reasonable questions:
http://nbeener.com/NDB_OSB_Qs.txt
Why is that, do you suppose?
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 16:29 GMT On May 30, 12:01 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > refractive STATE when you place a > strong minus on it: Really? please tell us what the proof is. in humans please.
now that you've resurfaced, please address these observations and questions. don't run away again, just try them one at a time if it seems too overwhelming for you.
1. What is your professional training, or professional experience, that allows you to give
people advise on how to manage their vision and eyecare problems? What Optometry, Ophthalmology,
or Optics training and/or experience do you have?
2. Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and are therefore walking
around with net plus power on their eye 24/7, do not become less myopic. This is optically the
same as wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't revert to emmetropia? Why is
it that they oftentimes become even more myopic? Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
3. How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do not become more myopic
(=less hyperopic) over time? They are straining to see, in exactly the same way that others do
who get very close their reading material. They do it 24/7. It's the same as wearing glasses
that are overminused. Your theory predicts their refraction should change, but it doesn't.
Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40.
4. How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom Physiol Opt. Feb;61(2):85-93,
1984) children who were overminused on purpose did not become myopic any more than children who
wore their proper spectacle prescription? Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
5. How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave them slightly myopic even
with their glasses on, they continued to develop myopia, and actually at an accelerate rate
(Chung K, Mohidin N, O'Leary DJ. Undercorrection of myopia enhances rather than inhibits myopia
progression. Vision Res. 2002, 42: 2555-9.) Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
6. How come the Hong Kong Progressive Lens Myopia Control Study (Investigative Ophthalmology and
Visual Science. 2002;43:2852-2858) concluded that using bifocal lenses on children has no effect
on myopia progression? Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
odisbrown@pa.net - 30 May 2007 16:41 GMT Dear PClark,
Subject: your querulous queries
Although, as a matter of "course," I NEVER "question my OWN faith," I will entertain a few of YOUR inquiries below.
>On May 30, 12:01 am, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote: >> Dear Revival, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Really? please tell us what the proof is. in humans please. My nephew, Keith.
I convinced his "mother" that he should wear the plus lens (at the threshold) and NOT wear the wretched minus.
He is now in his "fifth decade" and has 20/20 uncorrected vision.
He is also an accomplished athlete and personal trainer, all of which can be "attributed" to avoiding that first minus lens.
>now that you've resurfaced, please address these observations and >questions. don't run away again, just try them one at a time if it >seems too overwhelming for you. I shall do my best.
>1. What is your professional training, or professional experience, >that allows you to give [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >or Optics training and/or experience do you have? I wrote a book (that I, of necessity, self-published. No reputable publisher would come within a mile of it) about the wonders of the plus lens and the evils of the minus lens.
The mere "act" of having WRITTEN that book renders me highly qualified in this area.
>2. Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and >are therefore walking [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >it that they oftentimes become even more myopic? Your "theory" >predicts the opposite! They lack the requisite "personal resolve."
My niece is another example of this weak-willed, spineless, character- lacking sort who just "didn't have" what it "takes."
>3. How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do >not become more myopic [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40. See above. They are as feckless as my niece, Joy Benson.
>4. How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom >Physiol Opt. Feb;61(2):85-93, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >wore their proper spectacle prescription? Your "theory" predicts the >opposite! I can safely assume that this study was flawed.
>5. How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave >them slightly myopic even [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >progression. Vision Res. 2002, 42: 2555-9.) Your "theory" predicts >the opposite! It is safe to assume that this study, too, is flawed.
>6. How come the Hong Kong Progressive Lens Myopia Control Study >(Investigative Ophthalmology and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >on myopia progression? Your "theory" predicts the opposite! Do you FAIL to SEE the pattern here? Whenever you encounter a study whose "conclusions" are at variance with mine, then you have encountered a flawed study.
As always, enjoy our pleasant conversation about the behavior of the fundamental natural eye.
Best,
Odis Escapee
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:10 GMT >Dear PClark, > [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] >Odis >Escapee Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived. ' Scared of something, Neil?
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 17:17 GMT > Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived. > ' Scared of something, Neil? Sadly, I don't know anything about the message in question.
I'll put it to you, though:
Just like Otis, you steadfastly refuse to answer straight, legitimate, reasonable questions.
Scared of something ... like "being found out?"
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:22 GMT Yup.
Shivering in my boots.
T-t-t-terri-f-f-fied st-stiff.
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:26 GMT How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil?
Do you sit at your computer, desperately refreshing the page looking for my reply, so that you can make up some sort of 'witty' comeback?
You truly do have no life, Neil.
A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy.
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 17:34 GMT > How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy. Ouch. How will I recover? How ... will ... I ... recover?
Like Otis: rather than address the substance of an argument, you need to attack the person presenting the argument.
Also like Otis: you seem blind to the notion that your attacks are equally true of you. Wouldn't that tend to render them less effective?
Revival - 30 May 2007 17:47 GMT >Ouch. How will I recover? How ... will ... I ... recover? Yes, I'll leave you to ponder over that. Looks like it'll take a while...
>Like Otis: rather than address the substance of an argument, you need >to attack the person presenting the argument. Yikes - I smell a hypocrisy - better evacuate.
>Also like Otis: you seem blind Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd probably be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you, yourself, are blind. Never mind.
>your attacks are equally true of you. Wouldn't that tend to render them less effective? It's unfortunate, I know, Neil. But I don't have time to 'evaluate' the effectiveness of my attacks. I have better things to do. You obviously don't. A shame.
Scott Seidman - 30 May 2007 18:50 GMT > Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd > probably be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you, > yourself, are blind. A little odd that people with REAL visual problems tend to have a different perspective than Batesians
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 20:12 GMT > Wow, Neil. Since you are the one with -8 diopters of hyperopia, it'd probably > be a *teeny* bit more accurate to remember that you, yourself, are blind. As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision.
Though you haven't hurt me (or gotten my Rx right)--I've heard it all before--you've clearly let your true colors shine through.
Others, I'm sure, will be eager to receive your counsel in the future.
Revival - 30 May 2007 20:50 GMT --- As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision. ---
Sorry, Uncle Brookie; I didn't mean to tease you. I was just reminding you that you are, after all, the blind one. It seemed rather hypocritical that you should accuse me of being blind. Let's see what it was you wrote on your lovely jubbly website:
"MY EYES: Though I struggle daily not to let my life be defined by my eyes, they're--unfortunately--an all too significant component of who I am. Born cross-eyed, very farsighted, and with a lot of astigmatism, my eyes have not stayed straight despite three alignment surgeries. "
There we go.
--- Though you haven't hurt me (or gotten my Rx right)--I've heard it all before--you've clearly let your true colors shine through.
Others, I'm sure, will be eager to receive your counsel in the future. ---
OH NOES! I'm ever so scared, Neil!
*cough*pathetic...*cough*
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:08 GMT > --- > As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > --- There we go what? What's that proof of? Your misconceptions? Your misunderstanding? Your lack of knowledge?
> *cough*pathetic...*cough* Yes, you are rather.
TROLL!
<plonk>
Cya Simon
Revival - 30 May 2007 21:15 GMT --- As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration of honor, character, grace, style, and class than to come to a newsgroup about vision and tease people with bad vision. ---
What, are you gonna call your wifey DJ to give me a good smacking up the bottom?
I shiver at the thought!!
O' have mercy!
Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS.
Revival - 30 May 2007 21:19 GMT Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!
Ms.Brainy - 30 May 2007 21:33 GMT > Rofl... Tre is such a joka!! > > -- > Message posted via MedKB.comhttp://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200705/1 A friendly advice: Get out of here, Revival, together with your 12-yr old twin, before too late. You'll be eaten alive otherwise. Nobody here has any respect or appreciation of your personal attacks and flaming, and nobody here is interested in your voodoo preaching. You are not welcomed here, if you haven't yet noticed it. Your continued posting to this forum is pathetic. You have no supporters here. Go back to where you are wanted, the sooner the better!
Dan Abel - 30 May 2007 22:10 GMT > > Rofl... Tre is such a joka!!
> A friendly advice: Get out of here, Revival, together with your 12-yr > old twin, before too late. You'll be eaten alive otherwise. I suspect not. Such people thrive on creating trouble. The more trouble you give him, the happier he will be.
There is only one person in my killfile for this group. It isn't Otis. My newsreader said that there were five messages in this group when I checked. Only two survived the filter. Does it tell you something that the majority of messages were from one person who has nothing to contribute?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:17 GMT >>> Rofl... Tre is such a joka!! > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the majority of messages were from one person who has nothing to > contribute? Is it me? I have to know.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 23:31 GMT > > In article <1180557238.589373.108...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Is it me? I have to know. look-- you started out by saying you came to this forum to learn. that was obviously not true because you instead started telling people that they should try palming and other totally unproven therapies. now you have just degenerated into nothing but a flaming bandwidth- sucking troll. please leave this forum. you add ZERO value and instead just pollute every thread with your name-calling and ranting.
please go. and don't just create another profile name and start posting again. please go now.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 30 May 2007 23:38 GMT On May 30, 6:31 pm, p.clar...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > In article <1180557238.589373.108...@u30g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > please go. and don't just create another profile name and start > posting again. please go now. sorry simon. this reply is intended for Revival.
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 21:27 GMT > What, are you gonna call your wifey DJ to give me a good smacking up the > bottom? I've always understood that there are risks to using your true identity on the Internet, but ... because I am honest, forthcoming, and have nothing to hide, I have taken that chance. Of course, it's only you and Otis Brown who have compromised, threatened, or manipulated information gleaned FROM that trust.
Of course it is.
You, OTOH, have chosen to hide behind multiple identities for some inexplicable reason (other than: you SHOULD be ashamed).
For the record: you stand a much better chance by dealing with me than you do if you had to deal with my wife. Trust me.
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:08 GMT > --- > As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The > Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS. Are you the 12 year old or his older brother the 13 year old?
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 22:16 GMT > --- > As I've said to Uncle Otie before: there is no greater demonstration [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Jeez, you really are getting boring, Neil. Yawn... I think I'll go watch The > Apprentice. Better than listening to your BS. Sooo.... You're based in the UK then....
Obviously UK ISP's take abuse and spamming pretty seriously. Im sure MedKB also has a few things to say....
Complaints-To: http://www.MedKB.com/Uwe/NB/ReportAbuse.aspx
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:45 GMT > How is it that you are able to reply so fast, Neil? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > A real shame. Go fetch, 'boy. Hmm... He replied six minutes after you, you replied five minutes after.
I think you're the winner in having no life.
Cya Simon
Neil Brooks - 30 May 2007 18:07 GMT > Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived. > ' Scared of something, Neil? Sadly, I don't know anything about the message in question.
I'll put it to you, though:
Just like Otis, you steadfastly refuse to answer straight, legitimate, reasonable questions.
Scared of something ... like "being found out?"
Simon Dean - 30 May 2007 18:44 GMT > Why is it that 'The author of this message requested that it not be archived. > ' Scared of something, Neil? For someone who doesn't agree with the methods of Otis, you sure do spend a lot of time defending him.
Otis is a dangerous troll that you can not discuss anything with.
You might be more educated.
Cya Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 31 May 2007 03:08 GMT Dear Revival,
Neil Brooks keeps on insisting that he is not a doctor.
To his credit, he has extensive medical knowledge, and an exhaustive knowledge of the literature.
No one knows what is "profession" is -- but he keeps on providing MEDICAL ADVICE.
OK, so he is on course short of a degree in ophthamology, and not a "doctor".
But he does not want anyone to find out that he is in medical school, and will obtain a degree in ophthamology, and that is why he contiues to post under "Odis", and other false "capers".
You can judge for yourself the "quality" of Neil Brooks, and can guess who he is.
Be wise about Neil Brooks.
Otis
> odisbr...@pa.net wrote: > >Dear PClark, [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Neil Brooks - 31 May 2007 03:16 GMT >Dear Revival, > >Neil Brooks keeps on insisting that he is not a doctor. The fact that I'm not may have something to do with that.
>To his credit, he has extensive medical knowledge, >and an exhaustive knowledge of the literature. Why thank you, Otis. That's very kind.
>No one knows what is "profession" is -- but >he keeps on providing MEDICAL ADVICE. If you think that =I= am in violation of some law, then please feel free to consult with the appropriate authorities.
I don't hurt people. You do.
>OK, so he is on course short of a degree >in ophthamology, and not a "doctor". I've never taken a single course in either medical school OR ophthalmology. I have no formal training.
You, OTOH, are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.
>But he does not want anyone to find out >that he is in medical school, and will >obtain a degree in ophthamology, and >that is why he contiues to post under >"Odis", and other false "capers". When in doubt, manufacture a story and try to construct facts to support that story. If nothing else (which IS the case), you are consistent.
>You can judge for yourself the "quality" of >Neil Brooks, and can guess who he is. True enough. No guessing required, though. My life is on my website for all to see.
>Be wise about Neil Brooks. Sorry, Uncle Otie. I don't lie (you do), I'm not a doctor and I don't give medical advice (you do). More importantly, I don't hurt people (you do).
I have what knowledge about eyes and vision that I do because of necessity -- the mother of invention.
I've also never been afraid of either the scientific method (you are) or of questioning my own assumptions (you are) and learning as the knowledge evolves (you are).
There is an old saying: a fool cannot learn from a wise man, but a wise man can learn from a fool.
I am a wise man.
You are a fool.
It's THAT simple.
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 31 May 2007 04:15 GMT On May 30, 10:08 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival, > [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - Otis, what is your training that you feel qualified to suggest therapies to people with vision problems?
And why we are at it, why not explain why young myopes who don't wear any correction, such as ones that are "on the verge" of myopia at approximately -0.75 or -1.00, usually end up progressing further into myopia? since they aren't corrected they have a net plus optical power similar to wearing readers. you ask us to accept your claim that wearing readers is protective and can even reverse myopia yet in real-life it isn't true. why is that?
and why do hyperopes that strain constantly as if they were wearing excessive "wretched" minus lenses not advance toward myopia (or at least less hyperopia)? you ask us to believe that excessive accommodation causes eye elongation so hyperopes should get better-- but they usually don't. why is that?
and how come studies that show that excessive minus lenses, when used in human children, do not cause accelerated myopia development? you tell us that it does but there is not study to demonstate that in humans. the results, in fact, are opposite to what you claim.
don't run away now Otis. just try to explain these observations. how come there are SO MANY lines of study, and documented statistically- valid results, that don't agree with your doctrine. How can a truly logical person continue to embrace a doctrine that clearly doesn't at all resemble reality?
otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Jun 2007 04:17 GMT Dear Revival,
The ID of the "Odis" message is that it is posted from San Diego, CA.
But Neil Brooks does not want you to find this out, so he must "cover his tracks".
Otis Brown
> odisbr...@pa.net wrote: > >Dear PClark, [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > - Show quoted text - p.clarkii@gmail.com - 05 Jun 2007 04:23 GMT On Jun 4, 11:17 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> Dear Revival, > [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > > - Show quoted text - wow Otis, you sure are smart. you figured that one out real quick. why not apply your expansive brainpower to answering the open questions that seem to call into question your beliefs about myopia prevention? since you apparently can't and won't address these holes in your theory, then everyone just obviously concludes that what you are saying is worthless.
don't you have any pride? why do you run and hide? you are an unethical man Otis Brown, Engineer. Ha!
1. What is your professional training, or professional experience, that allows you to give people advise on how to manage their vision and eyecare problems? What Optometry, Ophthalmology, or Optics training and/or experience do you have?
2. Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and are therefore walking around with net plus refractive power in their eye 24/7, do not become less myopic. This is optically the same as wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't revert to emmetropia? Why is it that they oftentimes become even more myopic? Your "theory" predicts the opposite!
3. How come hyperopes (far-sighted people) who wear no correction do not become more myopic (=less hyperopic) over time? They are straining to see, in exactly the same way that others do who get very close to their reading material. And they do it 24/7. And it's optically the same as wearing glasses that are overminused. Your theory predicts their refraction should change, but it doesn't. Actually, they manifest even more hyperopia around age 40. How can that be Otis? Unless your theory is wrong!
4. How come, in a study published by Goss et al. (Am Jour Optom Physiol Opt. Feb; 61(2):85-93, 1984) children who were intentionally overminused did not become myopic any more than children who wore their proper spectacle prescription? Your "theory" predicts the opposite! You claim that the "wretched minus" would cause them to plunge deeper into the despair of myopia. Yet it doesn't seem to work that way. Why?
5. How come, when myopic patients were undercorrected so as to leave them slightly myopic even with their glasses on, they continued to develop myopia, and actually at an accelerated rate (Chung K, Mohidin N, O'Leary DJ. Undercorre
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