Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Vision / February 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Uncle Otie's AT IT again....

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Neil Brooks - 20 Feb 2007 03:33 GMT
>From the I-SEE site:

AlexWP.txt

Re: The West Point (Gmelin) Study and results.

Subject: The refractive behavior of the young eye.

A large number of studies of school children show
that when their eyes "go negative", they will continue
to go down at -1/2 diotper per year. In college
this rate slows down to about -1/3 diopter per year,
till graduation.

These statistics are reviewed below:

Otis Brown quoted Gmelin quoting McKinney's "Study of
Refractive Trends at West Point", saying:

Otis> The AVERAGE increase in myopia was -1.37 diopters (the range
being -1.12 diopters through -1.62 diopters).

>>>> Liar.

Alex> What I think Gmelin and McKenny were saying was that for those
myopic cadets (or perhaps non-myopic as well) whose myopia
increased, the increase was an average of -1.37 diopters
over four years, or about a third of a diopter per year.
Those cadets, myopic or not, who did not experience a myopic
shift were not included in the figure.

>>>> Annnnnd .... THIS would be more accurate!  Lying by partial disclosure of information.

Otis> Tragically, we would need ALL of the original data to settle
this dispute. We would have to know EXACTLY what was
considered a negative change. Would it be 1/8 diopter? 1/4
diopter? 1 diopter? The report does not say. It would
make a huge difference. For example, all went down, but
only 5 were greater that 1 diopter.

>>>> What dispute??  Why not review the USAF data that CLEARLY SHOWS the dishonesty of your "revelations."

Otis> So that would be your -1.1 to -1.6 diopters (for the five)
All others (250) stayed where they were, or went postive.
Maybe, but that is the issue.

>>>> I dunno' what that means, but ... as always .... when PRESSED HARD ... you start to move closer to honesty.  As always .... that's why I press.

Alex> This figure cannot be compared, unadjusted, to the results of
animal experiments where the refractive trend of all
subjects is included in the average.

Otis> As always, a matter of human judgment.

>>>> No, Uncle Otie.  It's not.  HONESTY DEMANDS identifying MONKEY STUDIES AS MONKEY STUDIES, CHICKEN STUDIES AS CHICKEN STUDIES, etc.  What you do is .... tantamount to lying .... or ... simply lying.

Alex> Francis Young speaks about this discrepancy of convention in his
1981 paper, "Primate Myopia". I quote:

Young> <<When fully adult monkeys (one even gave birth in the chair)
were
enclosed in the hooded situation, 7 of 10 developed myopia
or changes toward myopia which averaged 0.75 D in the period
of 1 year. While this amount is not spectacular, it does
exceed the usual amount of myopia of approximately 0.5D
developed in children over the same period. The
calculations of the amount of myopia developed included
those subjects who did not change into myopia whereas in
most human situations we exclude the subjects not changing
and deal only with subjects who are changing into myopia.
If the nonchanging subjects are excluded, the amount of
myopia developed is approximately 1.25 D of myopia in 1
year. Human subjects of a comparable age (18 to 23 years),
such as submariners, cadets at Virginia Military Institute,
or at the U.S. Naval academy tend to change at a rate of
approximately 0.25 D a year into myopia.>>

Otis> Excellent! I read the paper. The amount of accommodation
change was very small, about -0.8 diopters. The resultant
refractive STATE change was also very small.

Otis> In order to make a judgment of the behavior of all natural
eyes, you must take the AVERAGE of the refractive STATES of
all natural eyes. You can not just take, selectively, one
eye. The "noise" or randomness of these measurements is
such that it will effectively hide the deeper meaning of the
behavior of the population of natural eyes.

>>>> No, no, no, Uncle Otie.  There you go being dishonest (or just plain bone stupid) again.  YOUR use of an AVERAGE is ridiculous.  More granular data tells a very different story.  Hiding the fact that you cite ANIMAL data is dishonest.

Otis> What is truly required is a much greater change in the value
of accommodation. When a -3 diopter lens is applied to a
population of natural eyes, the refractive STATE will change
by -2 diopters (average) in six months.

Otis> This is truly the inherent behavior characteristic of all
normal and fundamental eyes.

>>>> And this is fundamentally (like that word??) dishonest (or just plain bone stupid), too.

Otis> In some aspects of science, you must realize that you can
not perform this experiment on the primate-human eye. And
you must exagerate the conditions of the test -- to get
meaningful results.

Otis> How you think about his -- is up to you.

>>>> Right.  You can begin with an assumption, and then try to fabricate data to support it OR you can craft an objective hypothesis, test it out, and modify your hypothesis based on the test results.  You choose the former.  Scientists choose the latter.

Alex> When the entire population of cadets is included in the numbers,
there still is a "negative" refractive trend, but it is much
smaller.

>>>> DESPITE the fact that Alex is FAR MORE HONEST THAN YOU, he's still committing the logical fallacy of misusing the mean.  More granularity reveals a different story altogether.  You simply obfuscate it for your personal agenda.  VERY UNscientific.  VERY DIShonest.

Otis> But the critical issues is to note that a Cadet with a
refractive STATE of zero and 20/20 has about a 1 in 100
chance staying at zero through four years of college. If
you are a cadet at zero, you should know this fact, and the
supporting information as per above. It might inspire you
to do something wise to prevent entry into myopia.

Alex> From the National Research Council book "Myopia: Prevalence and
Progression":

http://books.nap.edu/openbook/0309040817/html/31.html

Study> <<At entry 362 (43.7 percent) were myopic, while at graduation
443
(53.5 percent) were myopic.

Alex> Using Gmelin's frequency distributions for calculation, the mean
refractive error at entry was -0.873 D., while at graduation
it was -1.251 D. This is a mean change of -0.378 D., which
would be a rate change of -0.0945 D./yr, if the interval
between exams was four years.>>

OTis> Again, a matter of judgment. The Annapolis report showed a
"down" rate of -1 diopter in four years. If the person has
a refractive STATE of +1 diopter -- then he is safe. If
zero diopters, he is a serious risk of going negative. That
is the true issue -- and he should know about it.

Otis> If you wish to make the argument that nothing should be done
-- I accept your argument.

>>>> Oh, where to begin here.  Aside from creating a straw man vis-a-vis Alex, you're STILL cherry picking the data.  Review the USAF study, Uncle Otie.  Only 74% of entering MYOPES got more myopic.  That's the worst case scenario.  It's not compared to controls.  It does NOT support your conclusions or your hypothesis.

Otis> Indeed, most people truly do not care for or about
preserving or keeping their distant vision clear for life.
That is always a personal choice or decision.

>>>>  Doom, gloom, scare tactics, and accusations.  Threats, insults, evasion, obfuscation, illiterate analyses of statistics, etc., etc.,etc.  You are probably the most intellectually brain-dead person I've ever encountered.

On a good day.

Otis> Clearly I belive that the =1/3 diopter/per year figure is
very, very accurate, and that any person, enterning a four
year college witha refractive STATE of -1/4 diopter (20/30)
should understand these statistics. Again, this is a
personal choice.

>>>> This has ZERO to do with "personal choice."  You're a lying SOB.  That's the salient issue.

Otis> If the person UNDERSTANDS them and these issues, it might
encourage him to clear his Snellen by assidious use of a
strong plus for all close work.

Otis> If he does this, he can avoid picking up that -1.1 to -1.6
diopters of myopia for the four years in college.

>>>> WHAT "-1.1 to -1.6d of myopia??"

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.
otisbrown@pa.net - 20 Feb 2007 04:18 GMT
In this world there are air-heads like Neil D. Brooks.

I suggest that a wise person evaluate the statistics concerning
the behavior of the natural eye at a four year college -- and
make his own judgment, based on the facts, and not
on Neil D. Brooks OPINION of the facts.

Otis

> >From the I-SEE site:
>
[quoted text clipped - 192 lines]
>
> Liar.
Neil Brooks - 20 Feb 2007 05:21 GMT
On Feb 19, 8:18 pm, "otisbr...@pa.net" <otisbr...@pa.net> wrote:
> In this world there are air-heads like Neil D. Brooks.

Ouch.

> I suggest that a wise person evaluate the statistics concerning
> the behavior of the natural eye at a four year college -- and
> make his own judgment, based on the facts, and not
> on Neil D. Brooks OPINION of the facts.

Oh, Uncle Otie.  Would that it were....

If you would ever PROVIDE "the facts," or be HONEST ABOUT "the
statistics," then people truly COULD use their judgment to make
informed decisions.

Alas, .....
Neil Brooks - 20 Feb 2007 22:23 GMT
[good to keep these things in public forums, rather than allow Uncle
Otie to take them to his local soapbox, unchallenged]

PClarPLS.txt

Subject: M.O. OD asks for plus-prevention study -- and the would
BLOCK it in every way possible.

Dear Keith,

>>>> This is your nephew??  Oh, THAT's relevant!

Subject: Plus-prevention is indeed difficult.

You finally realize that you must do it yourself. Here a
majority-opinion OD argues against it, says it is impossible, and
then demands a plus-prevention study.

[Which he would do everything in his power to DESTROY.]

>>>> What are you talking about, Otis.  Conspiracy theories just never work.  Isn't there anything else about which you can talk with your nephew .... like .... whether or not you're under-medicated on a given day?

Best,

Otis

==============

Subject: M.O. OD asks for plus-prevention study -- and then would
BLOCK it in every way possible.

Re: Been there -- done that.

>>>> THE VAST OCULAR CONSPIRACY in action again.  Yawn.

From: PClar M.O. OD

>>>> Mood?  What does his mood have to do with anything?

Otis> What happened is the recognition of how totally you IGNORE
all scientific facts about the fundamental eye's proven
behavior -- when you dislike the implication of scientific
facts.

>>>> "Scientific facts?"  "Fundamental eye?"  "Proven behavior??"  Would you care to answer these questions??

>>>> http://nbeener.com/NDB_OSB_Qs.txt

PClar> what has been "proven" over this length of time is that
plus lenses, under-correction, bifocals, having myopes read
without their glasses, etc. IS ALL INEFFECTIVE. read the
literature you old fool!

PClar> why do you harass all the doctors here as if their is some
myopia prevention treatment that should be applied that
they are refusing to apply? all the treatments that you
suggest have been tested multiple times and proven to be as
effective as fairy dust.

[Comment:

>>>> Don't do that, you weak-willed douchebag.  Either HAVE a conversation or do not.  Your habit of trolling on s.m.v., then taking snipets of conversations away with you--like a squirrel hiding acorns--to your little pet sites ... then railing on against the evil doctors (WITHOUT, of course, their presence to point out where you're wrong or lying) is insufferable, weak, and just plain chicken-sh.t.  Your propositions can't stand challenge, and neither can you.

I am NOT "harassing" these majority-opinion ODs.

>>>> Sure you are.

What
I stated was that the person himself would have to size-up
the facts himself, and reach a point where he understands
the necessity of using the plus for prevention. It is my
belief that a mature adult, entering a four year college
could assess these issues, and clear his Snellen -- UNDER
HIS OWN CONTROL -- the way that Dr. Stirling Colgate did
it. I consider this SCIENCE, and NOT medicine. OSB]

PClar> as you point out, no one has more interest in this issue
than the Asian's and that's why researchers in Singapore
and Hong Kong have taken the lead on this issue. their
conclusions are the same -- nothing that has been tried so
far works except the anti-cholineric drugs therapies and
those are still being worked out. and don't start farting
out the name of Steve Leung -- he's and idiot and no one
over there accepts him at all. he hasn't proven a thing.

PClar> YOU are the one who has sat on your butt over the last 25
years and done nothing. if you think you have a clue about
how to prevent myopia then go out and PROVE it.

[Comment: I have taken Francis Young's bifocal (plus) study,

>>>> Actually, all you've done is to LIE about Francid Young's bifocal study.  I've shown you that time and again, but you're a bit deluded, making it difficult for you to comprehend.

>>>> http://nbeener.com/NDB_OSB_Qs.txt

and
SUGGESTED that his results could be repeated, but with the
proviso that the engineering students understand the
statistics concerning the natural eye's behavior. Thus
THEY would be the leaders of the study. So far, it is
people like PClar (M.O. OD) who effectively BLOCK even the
first steps towards this type of plus-preventive study.
THAT is why there is no successful preventive study. OSB]

>>>>  Annnnnnd they block it .... how??  Go work with an optometry college and create the study.  All you're doing is intellectual masturbation, Uncle Otie.  No more.  Go test your hypothesis.  It seems to fail for everybody else, and ... you exhibit the logic of a lobotomized rooster.

PClar> i don't care if you use engineering students, retired
optometrists or whatever, if the study design is valid then
everyone will take notice.

PClar> quit posting unsubstantiated drivel on the internet and
instead take the time to prove what you claim and we will
all be happier.

PClar.

===============

Otis> We all do typos, and spelling errors. But I truly "wonder"
at a man who has gone through four years of college
FOLLOWED by four years of optometry school, and still does
not understand that you capitalize the first letter of each
sentence.

>>>> Uncle Otie -- and I've said this MANY TIMES before -- you are the LAST human being alive who should EVER comment on the STYLE of somebody else's posts.

>>>> Come to think of it .... you should never criticize their substance, either.

>>>> It is truly pathetic to watch you.  You have nothing substantive to argue, so you try to discredit people for whether or not they capitalize on Usenet postings.

>>>> Fool.  Damned fool.  You couldn't pour water out of a shoe if the instructions were on the heel, Uncle Otie.

>>>> Maybe you should write another letter to Keith.  Get it refereed .... published even.
Neil Brooks - 20 Feb 2007 22:34 GMT
Gosh, Uncle Otie....

I just glanced at YOUR little Yahoo group.

Just how many times HAVE you talked about me?  I feel honored.

Also, how many "conversations" with the s.m.v. doctor have you ....
uh .... excerpted so that you could post them on your little group,
then comment without the doctor knowing, and with nobody challenging
you?

You can't answer questions here, so you just take pot-shots from the
peanut gallery and scurry away (never for good, though).

You are a pathetic little coward, Uncle Otie.

A pathetic little coward.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.