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Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2007Follow up - My next question about optometrists
So, as I suspected, the overwhelming response of this group was that I would get more attention and better chance at a good refraction from an optometrist. So - how does one go about finding a good optometrist. My local opticians may not necessary employ the best optometrists. How does one evaluate? My lenses are around $500 - trial and error is a little expensive and it's what I've been doing with my opthalmologist, but without much success. Louise > So, as I suspected, the overwhelming response of this group was that I > would get more attention and better chance at a good refraction from an [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Louise It is hard to say whether OD's associated with a chain store (or at least located on the premises) are any worse than OD's with a completely independent office. However, I would look for an older OD with their own successful practice (or in a small group practice). An older OD may not be any smarter than a younger one, but experience has its merits, especially if you have an unusual Rx. Most progressive lens makers will allow for one free remake due to an Rx change or flitting problem. That is one reason they cost $300- $500. in most all states, optometrists located in a retail optical store ARE completely independent from the retail outlet. they just lease the space for their office. it is beneficial for store to have one on-site sense most customers who get a prescription just go out and order glasses there. by law, they are not employed by the optical chain. having experience in refraction (>5 years) is indeed an advantage if you are looking for the best refractive exam. younger optometrists may be the better trained in terms of disease, surgical possibilities, etc. i would recommend asking around until you hear the name of a person several times from different people, and then try them. going to someone solely based on age or location is not the best way to do it IMHO ================== > So, as I suspected, the overwhelming response of this group > was that I would get more attention and better chance at a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Louise > in most all states, optometrists located in a retail optical store ARE > completely independent from the retail outlet. they just lease the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > someone solely based on age or location is not the best way to do it > IMHO "Completely independent" is a loaded phrase. Yes, in most states they are required to be legally independent of the chain, but I assume that the chain builds out the office, supplies the equipment, and leases it all back to the OD so that the OD requires little or no capital investment. I would assume that the lease terms are such that it is easier for an OD to leave and a replacement OD to be found without the normal long term financial obligations that would be incurred by an OD setting up their own practice at their own location. The bottom line is that an OD in an office attached to a large optical chain is likely to be younger and have less experience than an OD who has saved up enough money to open up their own practice. But at the same time, I would assume that if the OD was causing a lot of problems for the optical chain (a lot of remakes, for example) then they could take steps to cancel (or not renew) the lease, effectively firing the OD. Certainly, if you purchase the lenses at a particular optical chain, you may have less hassles getting a remake if you use the OD who leases the space and equipment from the optical chain. However, after much experience, I have found very few large chains that I would purchase lenses from. I'll add a couple more items to this list that I posted on the first thread copied below: 7. If the office has a web site, go there and explore it thoroughly. You might learn a lot about the office there. 8. If the web site offers an e-mail link to the doc, use it and contact him/her directly via e-mail with your questions. Tell about any problems you have had/are having. The response may be very illuminating. As a matter of fact, 7 and 8 are how I found my cataract surgeon. He answered by e-mails to my liking and it worked out fine. w.stacy, o.d. 1. Make a list of the practices near where you live, or easily accessible to you, since you will probably have to go back there for additional visits. Make notes on that list based on: 2. Talk to the receptionist about the doctors that are there. How many are there? How good are they (I know, this seems crass and unscientific, but you'd be surprised at what you might find out). 3. Ask her what kind of followup and redo policies the office has if the patient has a problem. 4. Ask her about fees. How much for the exam, do they work with this or that insurance. 5. Ask how soon you can be seen at this time, and is that a usual waiting time for this office? 6. Ask if the office has frames and lenses, and if they do, how much do the kind of lenses you wear cost? If they don't, whom do they recommend for obtaining eyewear? (if they say walmart, costco, lenscrafters, sears or penney's, or if they say "anywhere", scratch them off your list unless you happen to like the optical departments of those establishments). and nuber 9: If there is no useful web site, ask if you can have the doc's e-mail and send your note to him directly. They may be hesitant, but tell them you are looking for a new doc and it would help you a lot, rather than having to bother him during office hours. finally 10, which really should be #1, ask if they are taking new patients and if so, do they accept patients with any insurance you might have (both vision and medical). If you have no insurance, be sure to ask if there are any discounts available for cash patients. You might not get a straight answer to this one if they think you are shopping for an insurer, but by e-mail they might be more open, esp. if you give them your phone and home address in the e-mail... ok 11, my last one:, when you've got it narrowed down to a couple or 3 offices, visit the offices unannounced. Take a look around. If the place is a dump or doesn't smell right, back on out the door (you can say "oops, wrong office"). If they have a dispensary, ask to take a look at their frames. Be up front with what you're doing. Tell them you're looking for a new doc. If they seem eager to please you, are polite and efficient with others in the reception area, go ahead and make your appointment. You might get lucky and even meet the doc. Or you might like the dispensary even if you find a doc somewhere else. No reason you can't return with Rx in hand (but ask if they accept outside Rxs; some don't). good luck i am sure that this will spark much argument, but "after much experience" I conclude the opposite. After educating myself on what good lenses actually are, I would prefer to buy them from a large optical chain. I have worked in private, educational, co-medical, and retail environments and I have found that the retail optical chains are quicker to stand-by their product and put customer satisfaction first compared to other optical locations. of course this is a gross over-generalization so i'm sure opinions will differ. for example, one of the places I have worked at before was Wal-Mart Optical. The way Walmart looks at it is, if the customer is not satisfied, whether their refraction is correct or not, or whether they have just changed their mind about the type of frames they prefer after they have picked-up their glasses and worn them for a week, they will fully refund the cost of the glasses without hesitation. Of course they understand that the true economic value of a satisfied customer over their lifetime of purchasing is much more important than the profit margin on a single pair of glasses, so they gladly do it. Many private optometric offices would not be so gracious about remaking glasses and would haggle over such situations. just my observation and UNDOUBTEDLY it isn't true in all cases. ============ > Certainly, if you purchase the lenses at a particular optical chain, you may > have less hassles getting a remake if you use the OD who leases the space > and equipment from the optical chain. However, after much experience, I have > found very few large chains that I would purchase lenses from. Just a little one. Quickness to refund is very nice and should be expected from those who don't really know what's going on optically. My biggest beef with the big chains is most of them can't or won't order the latest, highest quality lenses. They offer what they can get dirt cheap and restrict it those items, giving the "customer" short shrift. w.stacy, o.d. > i am sure that this will spark much argument, but "after much > experience" I conclude the opposite. After educating myself on what [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>and equipment from the optical chain. However, after much experience, I have >>found very few large chains that I would purchase lenses from. > Just a little one. Quickness to refund is very nice and should be > expected from those who don't really know what's going on optically. come on now. i think we all know of at least a "few" patients who have been given perfectly good glasses (dead on refraction, insignificant change from previous Rx, all measurements correct, acuity 20/20 or better, same base curve and lens material as habitual specs, etc. etc.) who INSIST that their glasses aren't right and who want a refund. i consider myself and my office to know quite well "what is going on optically" yet I still occasionally run into these patients. some docs are hesitant to provide a refund since they "know" that their product is right. but its really just a cost of doing business in this industry and the optical chains can realize it and absorb it better than some private practices can. its unfair to label commercial practices as places who "don't know whats going on optically" so instead they just give you a refund. >>Just a little one. Quickness to refund is very nice and should be >>expected from those who don't really know what's going on optically. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > practices as places who "don't know whats going on optically" so > instead they just give you a refund. Of course there are very few of those, thankfully. However, I think those who are quick to refund don't really want to take the time to figure out what went wrong. So they don't learn in those cases. I suppose it's efficient, but the problem is that they will probably make the same mistakes again (whatever it was to cause the patient to be unhappy). I am slow to refund only because I want to figure out what the problem was and right it through remakes, at no extra cost to the patient, except for upgrades, which often solve the problem. > Of course there are very few of those, thankfully. However, I think > those who are quick to refund don't really want to take the time to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > problem was and right it through remakes, at no extra cost to the > patient, except for upgrades, which often solve the problem. I remember Pearle Vision with their Great Eyeglass Guarantee. You could literally go out and stomp on the glasses in the parking lot and then return the eyeglasses for a complete refund. They did this in order to take market share from the private O.D. The same applies to BOGOF's, or buy one get one free. A refund is what you give when you have been unable to please the customer. They're still not pleased after the refund, but at least you won't have an angry person standing there yelling and screaming and badmouthing you wherever they go. If you do a good job, the number of refunds will be miniscule. If we gave any refunds at all in 2006 I would be surprised. DrG > come on now. i think we all know of at least a "few" patients who have > been given perfectly good glasses (dead on refraction, insignificant [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > practices as places who "don't know whats going on optically" so > instead they just give you a refund. Well, it ain't the same story, but I'll tell it anyway. It may be instructive to some patients. I started wearing glasses in fourth grade. I needed them much earlier, but nobody knew. Back then, glasses were skinny little things. I got a few, since my myopia progressed for some time. Then I didn't get any for a long time. I thought it was time, so I saw an OD. I didn't want to get my glasses there, though. So I went to an independent optician. She said I had to get the monster glasses, because that was just it. I just couldn't stand them, and wore my older glasses. Some time later, I went to a different OD, and was insistent that I didn't want the monsters. I got something in between. They worked fine. After a few months, I tried the monsters again. They worked fine. I assumed that wearing the in between glasses got me used to larger glasses. > > Just a little one. Quickness to refund is very nice and should be > > expected from those who don't really know what's going on optically. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > practices as places who "don't know whats going on optically" so > instead they just give you a refund. Do people actually go to Walmart because of quality, or do they go for price, hoping that the quality is the same? DrG "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote in news:1168436469.512619.317460@ 77g2000hsv.googlegroups.com: > Do people actually go to Walmart because of quality, or do they go for > price, hoping that the quality is the same? > > DrG Try not to lose sight of the fact that there are plenty of people for whom every dollar they can save is a big deal.  SignatureScott Reverse name to reply > Try not to lose sight of the fact that there are plenty of people for whom > every dollar they can save is a big deal. If you have been in this business for any length of time, it would be impossible to lose sight of this fact. I don't shop Walmart, and stay as far away from it as I can. I tend to shop Nordstroms, Whole Foods, and other upscale yuppy-type stores. I generally purchase the best quality I can afford, and will shop around for the better price, and that's exactly the kind of clients I like to serve. DrG as Scott suggested, do not lose sight of the fact that there are MANY MANY people who cannot afford to make purchasing decisions like you do (and admittedly like I do too since I am much like you in my shopping habits). however, having worked at a Wal-Mart before, as well as at other retail outlets and other practice-types, you must realize there are quite a few people who can barely scrape together enough money to come to someplace to replace their broken, superglued, 5 year-old glasses. those people try to find a place where they can get quality eye care at an affordable price. they couldn't afford to buy glasses at your practice and you freely admit that you don't care to serve such people. Wal-Mart has brought quality eyecare to a level where it is affordable to the masses and they should be commended for it. and their next target is to bring quality medical care to their SuperCenters at affordable prices-- stay tuned! ==== > > Try not to lose sight of the fact that there are plenty of people for whom > > every dollar they can save is a big deal. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > DrG Wrong. It is not that I don't care to serve such people. I have given countless free eye exams and eyewear in the 20+ years I have been in practice. I love helping people, but managed care says that I am unfairly subsidizing those patients by OVERCHARGING OTHERS. I just don't like Walmart and their philosophy. I am from a small town. When the Walmart moved in, the downtown died...and they have since threatened to close their store thereby leaving the town with nothing. Cockroaches is what they are. I mean no offense to you. I'll gladly superglue anybodies frame for free. If someone cannot afford eyewear, I have made it known that I will provide it.... DrG p.clar...@gmail.com wrote: > as Scott suggested, do not lose sight of the fact that there are MANY > MANY people who cannot afford to make purchasing decisions like you do [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > > > DrG I am not a huge fan of what Wal-Mart can do to a small community also. But I do work at one part-time now and the quality of the services that they render is quite admirable. They work people to death for low wages and low benefits, put local store owners out of business, and all the while try to feed everyone a dose of feel-good happy horseshit in their television advertising. 90% plus of what they sell is sourced from oversees at the lowest price they can command. In their defense, and in particular regarding their optical division, there are many folks out there that can barely make ends meet and Wal-Mart optical serves their needs well. And those people aren't looking for a free hand out from you. they are willing to pay for their own glasses but they need to get the value out of every penny they spend. I too, like the other poster here, suspect that they could not afford to buy glasses at your private practice. they don't want you to super glue their old ones- they are looking to buy a new pair for themselves without any charity from anyone. This is a segment for Wal-mart and other discount optical chains. They exist because you and other private practioners are not meeting patient's financial needs. These are low-to-middle income families with children in school that are living from paycheck to paycheck or single-parent households. There are many many such folks out there and I don't think you even realize it because they don't come to see you and they aren't shopping at Nordstrom's. Its fine for you to be up front about the class of patients you prefer to serve, but don't delude yourself into thinking EVERYONE can afford to get glasses from you and that the chains are ruining your profession. And regarding refunds, in my humble experience the folks that scrape to put together enough money to buy themselves glasses at a discount chain are probably among the toughest when is comes to satisfying them. they want 110% from every penny they spend. in the private medical practice that I also work at we almost never get requests for spectacle refunds. =========== > Wrong. It is not that I don't care to serve such people. I have given > countless free eye exams and eyewear in the 20+ years I have been in [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > > > DrG >I am not a huge fan of what Wal-Mart can do to a small community also. > But I do work at one part-time now and the quality of the services that [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > ruining your profession. ><SNIP> I am not exactly sure what the difference is between meeting the financial needs of people who need to buy glasses, and the financial needs of people who needs to purchase food, medicine, auto-parts, etc, at a Wal-Mart. I would also say that Wal-Mart tends to hire disabled workers and very senior workers who could not get a job at competing stores that sell the same items. I would appreciate you not turning this discussion into class warfare. I serve the market that I serve and it is different than Walmart's in the main. I would actually like to sell more high end frames and lenses than I do. I like selling the high end stuff and it's nice to have customers who can purchase it. If anything, I resent having to carry some of the frames I have to carry to satisfy certain vision plans. Where I practice doesn't have a Walmart, but there are two within a five mile radius. I learned early that I could not be all things to all people, and that trying to compete with Walmart in their price segment is insanity. When I have actually bought clothing merchandise at Walmart (running socks, sweats and the like), it barely lasted three washings before it fell apart. But, hey, they sure were cheap. One more thing: I started my practice from scratch and worked hard. There are 15 chains within a five mile radius, and I'm still in business. Typically the only refunds I see are the ones that patients are getting from the department stores where they bought their previous eyeglasses. DrG > I am not a huge fan of what Wal-Mart can do to a small community also. > But I do work at one part-time now and the quality of the services that [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > > > > > DrG > I just don't like Walmart and their philosophy. I am from a small > town. When the Walmart moved in, the downtown died...and they have > since threatened to close their store thereby leaving the town with > nothing. Cockroaches is what they are. I mean no offense to you. Interesting how people who bash a Walmart probably own Walmart shares in their investment portfolio either directly or indirectly thru mutual funds. "Wall St. news today: shares of cockroaches reach all time high". > Interesting how people who bash a Walmart probably own Walmart shares > in their investment portfolio either directly or indirectly thru mutual > funds. > > "Wall St. news today: shares of cockroaches reach all time high". OK. So what you're saying is that what's good for Walmart is good for the economy and everybody owns a share. I did buy some peanuts at a Walmart last year...what was I thinking? > > Interesting how people who bash a Walmart probably own Walmart shares > > in their investment portfolio either directly or indirectly thru mutual > > funds. > > > > "Wall St. news today: shares of cockroaches reach all time high". The above post is what I said. > OK. So what you're saying is that what's good for Walmart is good for > the economy and everybody owns a share. Where did this come from? I never said this. > I did buy some peanuts at a Walmart last year...what was I thinking? Good for you!!! Next year maybe you'll buy some popcorn. >> I did buy some peanuts at a Walmart last year...what was I thinking? Probably the same thing everyone else was thinking. "How come these peanuts cost twice as much at my grocery store." > >> I did buy some peanuts at a Walmart last year...what was I thinking? > > Probably the same thing everyone else was thinking. "How come these peanuts > cost twice as much at my grocery store." Hehe. That was just a phase I went through, but it didn't last long. We still buy our peanuts at Albertsons, where we might pay a little bit more to avoid the hassle. Actually, the wife prefers Costco. She's the power shopper. > Do people actually go to Walmart because of quality, or do they go for > price, hoping that the quality is the same? > > DrG Believe it or not, the quality of the products and the service at Wal-Mart Optical is typically noticeably better than you can find at other large optical chains. They actually will sell name-brand products (instead of rebranding them like LensCrafters Featherwate to hide the mediocre quality of the product), and the opticians at Wal-Mart are quite knowledgeable (at least the lead optician). The biggest problem for me with Wal-Mart is that their product line is obviously much smaller than an independent optical or OD. Even when they offer a particular brand and model, they may only offer a limited number of materials (even when the manufacturer offers the lens in other materials). > Believe it or not, the quality of the products and the service at > Wal-Mart Optical is typically noticeably better than you can find at > other large optical chains. They actually will sell name-brand products > (instead of rebranding them like LensCrafters Featherwate to hide the > mediocre quality of the product), and the opticians at Wal-Mart are > quite knowledgeable (at least the lead optician). I know you keep saying that, and I am sceptical because of my experience. I think it just depends on the staff at the local establishment. DrG > I know you keep saying that, and I am sceptical because of my > experience. I think it just depends on the staff at the local > establishment. > > DrG Yes, it does depend, and there is a lot of variability. I have surveyed over 10 Wal-Mart and Lenscrafters locations each, several Pearle, Pennys, and quite a few independent opticals. I have also talked to several ODs and their staff in the small in-house optical shop. It is sort of my hobby, every time I go out shopping, to stop and talk to (mostly) idiot optical shop employees to see if they have any idea what they are talking about. I was almost thrown out of one Lenscrafters when I caught a salesperson lying and told him he was lying. The biggest variable is the OD's office. An OD may not be able to afford to hire high priced staff to run their optical shop, and they may be too busy with refractions to have a lot of time to talk to patients about products. But some OD's have excellent opticians and some have ones that are about the same as the average Lenscrafters salesperson. Wal-Mart does have "some" marginal employees in their optical shop, but if you ask for the head optician, they usually know what they are talking about. And the products that Wal-Mart sells are not rebranded junk like Lenscrafters. My most recent experience at a high end independent optical with only 4 locations (all in the same city) is that their staff is highly trained and extremely knowledgeable. Actually, my current optician came from Walmart. Of course he had to learn quite a bit, but he is very personable, very eager, and a good learner. He has been with me for about 6 years. Perhaps this is what Walmart excels in: the hiring of people with a good work ethic. It is very difficult to keep good people when the entire industry is driving the profit margins through the floor. This will only compound the quality problems, IMO. DrG > > I know you keep saying that, and I am sceptical because of my > > experience. I think it just depends on the staff at the local [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > locations (all in the same city) is that their staff is highly trained > and extremely knowledgeable. >i am sure that this will spark much argument, but "after much > experience" I conclude the opposite. After educating myself on what [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > glasses and would haggle over such situations. just my observation and > UNDOUBTEDLY it isn't true in all cases. I was not referring to Wal-Mart. You probably don't know this, but I have frequently remarked in this forum that Wal-Mart (on average) is the best optical chain stores of any I have surveyed, and even better than many independents and OD offices (especially when the OD hires cheap labor to do the dispensing and fitting). The lead optician on duty at Wal-Mart is usually very knowledgeable and you can purchase name brand products from them, and they will tell you the real name of the product your are purchasing. This is contrast to most of the other optical chains where all the products are rebranded (like Lenscrafters "FeatherWates"), so it is very difficult to know exactly what you are getting and even most of the salespeople don't know what the true brand or lens material of the products are. The vast majority of salespeople at the large chain stores are not career opticians. The main drawback of Wal-Mart is that compared to independents and OD offices (who can use any number of independent labs) is that Wal-Mart only offers a small range of brands, models, and materials, and the range seems to have shrunk over the last few years. I don't understand your comment about private optometric offices not offering a money-back guarantee since I was specifically referring to chain stores with an OD office attached (where there is a lease-back relationship between the two). Some of the other major chain stores (notably Lenscrafters) also offer a 30-day unconditional money back guarantee on frames and lenses, and I believe they offered this guarantee before Wal-Mart offered it.. On the other hand, I would never attempt to purchase a high-tech product (such as a progressive lens) from Lenscrafters because the lenses they sell are very mediocre in quality and their salespeople are generally unqualified to fit progressives. For independent optical and OD offices that use independent labs, almost all high-end progressive lens makers will do a free remake for the retailer, since they are difficult to fit and the cost of remakes is built into the price of the lens. Walmart has nothing to do with the operations of their opticals. It's a third party. I hired my optician from Walmart about 5 years ago. He was a bit wet behind the ears, but he was eager and quality-oriented. I don't see how you can say that Lenscrafters employees are less qualified, because it doesn't correspond to my experiences. DrG > >i am sure that this will spark much argument, but "after much > > experience" I conclude the opposite. After educating myself on what [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > since they are difficult to fit and the cost of remakes is built into the > price of the lens. > Walmart has nothing to do with the operations of their opticals. It's > a third party. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > DrG If it doesn't correspond to Leukoma's experiences it MUST be false. He knows everything. >> Walmart has nothing to do with the operations of their opticals. It's >> a third party. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> DrG My experience is as a consumer having visited over 10 Lenscrafters locations. Every time I go to a mall, I visit various optical stores and ask the salesperson questions (it is my hobby). The Lenscrafters salespeople are usually idiots, usually former department store sales clerks. > My experience is as a consumer having visited over 10 Lenscrafters > locations. Every time I go to a mall, I visit various optical stores and ask > the salesperson questions (it is my hobby). The Lenscrafters salespeople are > usually idiots, usually former department store sales clerks. Your hobby? No kidding? You should make it a business. I'm surrounded by Walmarts, Sams, Costcos, Pearles, Lenscrafters, Eyemasters, etc. all within a five mile radius. Typically the quality of eyewear from the Lenscrafters is pretty good, but that's not a scientific observation. It's just my impression. DrG > If it doesn't correspond to Leukoma's experiences it MUST be false. He > knows everything. You should stop by my office sometime. I would really enjoy meeting you. DrG > You should stop by my office sometime. I would really enjoy meeting > you. > > DrG If I'm in your neck of the country, I'll pop by and introduce myself. > Walmart has nothing to do with the operations of their opticals. It's > a third party. wrong. wal-mart owns the store and the labs. wal-mart laboratories are the 3rd largest optical laboratories in the US. > wrong. wal-mart owns the store and the labs. wal-mart laboratories > are the 3rd largest optical laboratories in the US. Leukoma wrong? I'll now have to rethink my flat Earth theory. > > wrong. wal-mart owns the store and the labs. wal-mart laboratories > > are the 3rd largest optical laboratories in the US. > > Leukoma wrong? I'll now have to rethink my flat Earth theory. It is a rare thing, isn't it? DrG Anybody who changes their mind about a frame in my office gets to pick another. Anybody who doesn't like a lens, gets another, and I can pick from any brand in the universe. Anybody whom I cannot please by doing the above, gets a refund. Those are so few and far in between as to be negligible. We do everything we can to please the patients/customer. I don't regard giving refunds as having pleased the customer. On the contrary, it is an admission of not having been able to please the customer. DrG > i am sure that this will spark much argument, but "after much > experience" I conclude the opposite. After educating myself on what [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > and equipment from the optical chain. However, after much experience, I have > > found very few large chains that I would purchase lenses from. |
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