Medical Forum / General / Vision / February 2007
Can the difference in how people see be explained?
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Katy - 28 Dec 2006 19:19 GMT Can the difference in how people see be explained? By that I mean why people who have the same prescription but don't appear to need them to the same degree. I am -2.75 and get by without wearing glasses except for essentials like driving, tv and movies and shopping. I know other people who are surprised by that. Am I unusual and if I am why can I tolerate more than other people seem to be able to?
Mike Tyner - 28 Dec 2006 20:29 GMT > Can the difference in how people see be explained? By that I mean why > people > who have the same prescription but don't appear to need them to the same > degree. It's entirely subjective, as variable as personalities.
Sometimes there are physical differences - small pupils or squinting can significantly reduce subjective blur.
-MT
Salmon Egg - 28 Dec 2006 20:35 GMT On 12/28/06 11:19 AM, in article 6b72f493f545c@uwe, "Katy via MedKB.com" <u12444@uwe> wrote:
> Can the difference in how people see be explained? By that I mean why people > who have the same prescription but don't appear to need them to the same > degree. I am -2.75 and get by without wearing glasses except for essentials > like driving, tv and movies and shopping. I know other people who are > surprised by that. Am I unusual and if I am why can I tolerate more than > other people seem to be able to? A more meaningful question is: Why do some people visually perceive better than others? Difference in prescription is at just about the bottom of the list of explanations.
1. I have a friend who can spot fish in a moving stream and is able to distinguish among rocks, plants and weeds. I am lucky just to see the object.
2. Why are some radar (sonar) operators much better at picking out signals from oscilloscope traces that look like grass (noise)?
3. As an aural analogy, some radio operators are able to pick out Morse code from background noise in a way that boggles my mind. One time, as I was listening to the "noise," I heard a slight change in the timbre of the noise. I could not read it, but that slight change was the other person's big signal.
4. When Sputnik was launched many decades ago I listened to a recording of the signal. At the same time, the signal was sent to an oscilloscope. Even when the trace seemed to be totally noise, it was easy to hear the Sputnik tone. Do some people have the ability to see the tone from the scope trace? I have no idea.
There is much more to seeing than the eyeball.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 Dec 2006 21:13 GMT Dear Katy,
There is a tendency to "over-prescribe" a minus lens.
Some people "tense up", and wind up getting an excessive prescription.
Further in semi-darkness, vision can be profoundly different.
It may be in room-illumination you have functional vision (pass the DMV in some states), and thus don't truly need glasses except for night vision.
It would be a good idea to read a Snellen chart on your own, just to check this -- objectively.
Others indeed have "real" (non-pseudo) myopia, and a strong minus is necessary.
Best,
Otis
> Can the difference in how people see be explained? By that I mean why people > who have the same prescription but don't appear to need them to the same [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Message posted via MedKB.com > http://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200612/1 Neil Brooks - 29 Dec 2006 00:29 GMT > There is a tendency to "over-prescribe" a minus lens. There IS?? Really??
On what basis do you make this assertion??
Do you have any evidence (forget 'proof' for the moment), or is this just a lie you have concocted to help you convince yourself that your theory makes sense?
Thanks.
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Dec 2006 02:19 GMT To a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
DrG
> Dear Katy, > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Message posted via MedKB.com > > http://www.medkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/vision/200612/1 Salmon Egg - 29 Dec 2006 04:21 GMT On 12/28/06 6:19 PM, in article 1167358755.614373.259110@79g2000cws.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote:
> To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Sometimes they look like thumbs or fingers. Bill -- Fermez le Bush
A Lieberma - 29 Dec 2006 04:41 GMT > Dear Katy, Dear Katy,
Please disregard Otis's postings. He is not in the medical profession and not in any position to give medical advice.
Thanks!
Allen
Salmon Egg - 29 Dec 2006 19:06 GMT On 12/28/06 8:41 PM, in article Xns98A7E6E7963F2liebermamyselfcom@216.77.188.18, "A Lieberma" <lieberma@myself.com> wrote:
> Please disregard Otis's postings. He is not in the medical profession and > not in any position to give medical advice. During my lifetime, I have gotten plenty of poor medical advice from professionals in medicine. This does not prove that Otis's advice is good. It is not a logical basis for proving that it is not.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
William Stacy - 29 Dec 2006 20:28 GMT Probably true, but the logical basis for rejecting him out of hand is the garbage he actually has posted over the years. It doesn't exactly take a rocket scientist to discern his fallacious thinking. Sure, he sometimes expresses a reasonable thought, but those are scattered pretty thinly, like pearls hear and there across the cow pasture of his universe.
>On 12/28/06 8:41 PM, in article >Xns98A7E6E7963F2liebermamyselfcom@216.77.188.18, "A Lieberma" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > A Lieberma - 29 Dec 2006 22:23 GMT > During my lifetime, I have gotten plenty of poor medical advice from > professionals in medicine. This does not prove that Otis's advice is > good. It is not a logical basis for proving that it is not. Good or bad, your professionals are much more in a position to give medical advice as they received training in doing so. What happens afterwards, well, only 20/20 hindsite tells.
Inso far for Katy, she needs to be aware that Otis has nothing to do with the medical profession, and his advice should be ignored.
That's not to say, others may play "doctor", but it's been proven Otis doesn't have any medical background whatsoever, and first time posters need to be aware of it.
He sure doesn't put an caveats on his postings, and not to alert new posters is in my opinion just as bad as Otis himself.
Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 04 Jan 2007 21:19 GMT Dear Bill,
> During my lifetime, I have gotten plenty of poor medical advice from > professionals in medicine. This does not prove that Otis's advice is good. > It is not a logical basis for proving that it is not. I have received poor advice also from majority-opinion medical people.
They MIGHT think they are PERFECT, but that only makes you doubt them more.
I PERSONALLY would like to hear the unvarnished TRUTH of the matter. That respects my intelligence, and above all else, my right of choice in the matter.
If I am too young, then my parents should be supplied with the appropriate second-opinion information.
If a given person in a professions does not "like" the second-opinion, then he should say so -- and EXPLAIN why he does not "like" the second-opinion.
That would be ethical and reasonable.
He does have the obligation to make you aware of the preventive second-opinion, and supply internet "links" so you can personally evaluate the scientific facts and truth behind the preventive second opinion.
I would respect a professional who respects me in that regard.
It is clear from our discussion that that type of RESPECT is not shown to the public at this time.
You can draw your own conclusions.
Best,
Otis
> On 12/28/06 8:41 PM, in article > Xns98A7E6E7963F2liebermamyselfcom@216.77.188.18, "A Lieberma" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Bill > -- Fermez le Bush Neil Brooks - 04 Jan 2007 23:18 GMT > I have received poor advice also from majority-opinion medical people. But surely orders of magnitude LESS than YOU have GIVEN to others!
otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Jan 2007 01:25 GMT Dear Bill,
Bill> During my lifetime, I have gotten plenty of poor medical advice from professionals in medicine. This does not prove that Otis's advice is good. It is not a logical basis for proving that it is not.
Subject: The OPINION about the plus -- according to highly qualified S.O. optometrists
Regarding: How to JUDGE an OD who advocates PREVENTION at the threshold.
Or, if you begin wearing that wretched minus, your eye "adapt" to it, any your distant vision is permanently lost -- like so much spilt milk, or water over the dam.
Wake up!
Yes, you should get advice from a qualified PROFESSIONAL. The question is -- WHICH professional.
You will hear the majority-opinion every day, that nearsightedness CAN NOT BE PREVENTED, and you are wasting your time if you even attempt to do so.
The majority opinion OD will give you the impression that ALL ODs believe that myopia CAN NOT BE PREVENTED. This is simply false.
While difficult (as we all acknowledge) it is indeed possible to clear your Snellen from 20/70 to pass all DMV VA requirements and continue and pass the 20/30 and 20/20 line. But it truly takes personal resolve and persistence to do it. On that we can all agree.
Here is a statement by an optometrist who "woke up" to the NECESSITY of plus-prevention for his own children.
That is why most clearly defines the nature of and honest second-opinion on the subject -- what a man will do for his own children.
Here is the statement:
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From:
Steve I.H. LEUNG Optometrist
Hong Kong, SAR, China
May 2003
steveleung@chinamyopia.org
Subject: An optometrist's personal experience or MY AWAKENING
Dear Myopic Folk,
I am a practicing optometrist working in the field of optics for more than 16 years. During these years I faced an excessive high rate of children developing nearsightedness (myopia). It is very hard to resist the obvious need to use a minus lens (concave lens) for these children. I deeply appreciate that we all value clear distant vision for life. Achieving this goal would be of great value for all of us.
Everyday, a great many people are developing the vision problems of nearsightedness, farsightedness, aged vision -- as well as crossed and lazy eyes. These people come to my office and require immediate vision correction. They all need glasses.
Among the visual problems, the case of myopia correction bothers me greatly. It is a dilemma and tragedy of using a "correcting" lenses, which in fact these glasses eventually become a crutch for life.
In the early years of practice, I was not aware the long-term bad effect that a minus lens has on the eye. This is because neither the curriculum textbooks nor the professors pointed out the ultimate side effect that a minus lens has on the eye -- during my many years of doing course work in optometry.
After graduation, I practiced the full scope of optometry, from refraction to fundus eye examination, and vision correction by optical means. But once these means are removed, the vision is neither improved nor restored.
The minus lens is merely an aid to vision, i.e., compensation by external means.
In the majority of cases, naked-eye vision gets worse with the traditional minus lens correction.
The children will need stronger power glasses in the following years. It is a matter of treating the symptom -- but does not achieve an effective cure.
I have been mulling over in my mind -- to think about alternative and better methods to manage myopic eyes, because I also am nearsighted.
With my accumulating experience, I am well aware that constant wearing of minus lens glasses are harmful especially the full power ones. However, there is no choice but to use a minus lens if the child cannot see well in his class.
At times, the best that I can do is to emphasize that the use of (minus lens) glasses be restricted to chalk board, and always must be removed after class. This is the first step in goal of avoiding the glasses' side effect.
But being myopic is unfortunate and inconvenient. At times it seems that none of us can escape the use of a minus lenses to restore clear vision.
I have been driven into deep thinking about a way of, "how to restore clear vision from myopic and how to maintain distant vision for life."
As a father and an optometrist, I felt a strong commitment to protect my own child's vision. It was because my child (age 4) in her curiosity asked me, "Dad, why do you always wear glasses? Why are the kids I play with in school wearing glasses?"
Her statement had a serious impact on me, and I woke up to the fact that a child should not be fitted with minus lens glasses -- if there are means to doing so.
Why? The earlier age you begin wearing the minus lens, the faster vision deteriorates. The minus lens can make vision worse all by itself! Many scientists, engineers and health workers have formed this opinion -- that the minus lens is definitely harmful to young kid's long-term vision.
Because I was sensitive to both the requirement to use the minus lens, but also understood the secondary effect (vision deteriorates )I began much broader research into the subject matter. This included the judgment of engineers and scientists (and some ophthalmologists )who "object" to the use of the minus lens.
Fortunately, I met several enthusiastic engineers, physicists and scientists via internet in 2001 by chance. They provided excellent postings in their web sites where I got a deep insight about the development and management of child's acquired myopia -- to include the potential of preventing it in the first place by wise use of a (reading) plus lens. They are Donald Rehm, Otis Brown, James Arthur, Dr. Stirling Colgate and Alex Eulenberg.
In fact, researchers such as Dr. Jacob Raphaelson and Dr. Francis Young had conducted pioneering work to determine the cause, effect, and remedy for myopia acquired in school. As early as 1904, Dr. Jacob Raphaelson had used the plus (convex) lens to effectively cure a child's myopia. Further, Dr. Francis Young has revealed the true cause of acquired myopia with his large number of insightful experiments and scientific publications in the 1960s. All the above mentioned scientists advocate that preventative measures be instituted to help children avoid getting into myopia in the first place.
In view of their spirit and fortitude, I felt that I bore a responsibility as an optometrist if I did nothing to assist in the prevention of myopia.
I regret that I became part of the system (use minus lens) that was put in place long time ago -- and that this system has not changed in any significant detail since its inception.
My goal is to look to the future and begin preventive methods which can be effective for the child who is on the threshold of myopia. Today, I make it clear that my mission and task is to try my best to discuss the alternate opinion on the therapeutic use of the plus lens -- instead of the compensatory use of minus lens. I do everything in my power to explain the long-term effect that the minus lens has on the eye's refractive status, and I encourage parents to review this issue for themselves.
I have supported several hundred children with the plus lens since 2001. The long term effect of the lens is developing, and results will become better as the use becomes more complete. Most of the children retain their current refractive (focal) status and few of them achieved significant vision improvement. Although it is unusual, there have been several cases of complete vision recovery! I also felt that making this commitment is a matter of my personal integrity, and is necessarily part of my work and career.
====================
An optometrist to will do this with his own children will also help you -- if you will let him and accept his guidance and support.
In other words, what man among us, would, if his child asked for bread -- would give him a stone?
In the final analysis, an OD who has figured out plus-prevention will have his own child wearing the plus to avoid entry into it.
Otis
> On 12/28/06 8:41 PM, in article > Xns98A7E6E7963F2liebermamyselfcom@216.77.188.18, "A Lieberma" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Bill > -- Fermez le Bush Dr. Leukoma - 05 Jan 2007 01:44 GMT Brown:
This thread has nothing to do with The Force Strong Plus On Children Society. Now, please be a good boy and go to bed.
DrG
> Dear Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 215 lines] > > Bill > > -- Fermez le Bush otisbrown@pa.net - 05 Jan 2007 02:05 GMT Good New, Majority-opinion Leukoma,
Some parents "wake up" to the need to PROTECT their child's distant vision -- by helping them clear their Snellen with the plus at near.
The way they avoid entry into myopia in the FIRST PLACE is to stop it before it begins. And professionals like Steve Leung will indeed help with that process.
So, I guess if Ron wants to make certain that his child avoids stair-case myopia from the minus -- he must avoid you.
Otis
Dear Prevention-minded parents,
I have received this today from a parent.
I have changed the names of the people to protect them.
Best,
Otis
==================================
From: Ron
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:23 AM
Subject: Mike's vision 20/70 to 20/30
Dear Otis,
I am Ron and my son is Mike. Mike is eight years old now and can read most of the 20/30 line of i-see random Snellen chart. He has been using plus for three months.
In 2004 when he was 6. My wife and I took him to see the optometrist in a university. We were told that Mike's vision was farsighted +0.75D both eyes and the eyes were healthy.
In 2005 he was 7. We went to the same optometrist. We were told that Mike's farsightedness was gone. We worried he would be myopic soon. But nothing we could do at the time. The optometrist said that they suggest some children to use the hard contact lens to slow down the myopia if myopia grows fast. But he said Mike was not myopic yet and did not need at the time. My wife and I also think the hard contact lens is too dangerous for a young boy like Michael. We do not consider. What we could do was just keep an eye on his vision.
At his regular body check early August this year. The doctor told us Mike needed to see an optometrist. My wife and I took him to see an optometrist on the same day. We were told that Mike was R-1.25 D and L-1.00 D nearsighted. That guy said Mike needed a pair of nearsightedness glasses. I told him Mike's refractive state was 0 diopter last year. That guy said ..you know.. he has grown. he has grown taller. his eyes have grown longer. and heredity. so myopia. I thought only the heredity made sense (not any more now).
I think the NBA players are much taller. Are they all myopic? We rejected to let Michael wear glasses the guy wanted to sell. We went to two more different optometrists at different places in the week (because I don't really trust some of them ). One said Michael was R-1.25 D and L-1.50 D. Another said he was -1.50 D both eyes. Sure enough he was nearsighted. We did not go to the university because it takes months for an appointment. We needed to know earlier.
My wife and I were very sad. We have been doing everything we can to protect his vision since he was a baby, no close reading at home (in school we don't know and can not control), 12 feet away from the TV and only two or three hours a week, no TV game and no computer etc. Unfortunately, he can not stay away from myopia.
In that week. My wife and I searched on the net. We wanted to find some methods to slow down Mike's myopia progress. We found O.K lens then we found plus method on Steve's site and your site. We read as much as possible in a week. Though we read a lot. We could not let Mike try the plus. Because we didn't know too much about this. We worried. So we decided to try the plus lenses by myself first. After a few days using plus lenses. I felt good and my vision improved little. It was no harmful at all. Then we got a pair of +1.50 D lenses for Michael starting. Mike started using plus in the end of August 2006.
Mike's vision improved a little bit in a month. I always check his vision at home with the eye charts on the net. I have read a lot about plus prevention on the net. Too bad Steve doesn't update his website any more for some reason. Some people accused him.
I have read a lot on your site, your forum, the Yabb vision improvement forum, sci.med.vision and i-see etc. I realize the +1.50 D lenses are not strong enough for Michael when he reaches 20/50 or better. So I gave him a pair of +2.50D lenses on 26 September 2006. He uses plus at home and his class room. He now can read most of the 20/30. Sometimes 4 of 6 sometimes 5 of 6. His vision was about 20/60 - 20/70 three months ago. He has improved a lot through three months.
Last week Mike had a vision assessment in the department of health. The optometrist put the -0.50D lenses on Mike's face. Michael could read the smallest line each eye separately with those lenses. The optometrist said Mike was -0.50 D nearsighted both eyes. I asked him if the smallest line was 20/20. He told me that was 20/15. He said Mike didn't need glasses.
Otis, is that kind of over-prescription you always say? Anyway, we are so happy about that Michael is just -0.50D nearsighted (may be) confirmed by a professional optometrist though I know his vision level on the eye chart at home, though I don't trust some of them too much.
Mike improves his vision by using plus. So do I. But my vision is too bad can not be restored. One thing is certain. Plus prevention works. Mike doesn't do any eye exercise like zooming, sunning and palming etc. He doesn't even know it. I have given him some blue berry extract with DHA since October 2006. I don't know if it helps. Who knows?
One more thing is certain. God has been helping us. Thank God.
Otis, you are doing great. You are helping a lot of people. Some people overcome myopia with your help. I have learnt much about plus-prevention on your site. Mike can avoid the stair-case myopia. His vision doesn't need to be sacrificed. I can't tell you how excited I am that he doesn't need the nearsightedness glasses in his life even he is just 20/30 now. You are making things better.
I have seen some people bash you unreasonably. So I just want to write this letter to say thank you and encourage you. It is not easy for me to type an English letter like this. But I have to.
I don't know if Mike will reach 20/20. I believe he will. I will let you know on the day.
Thank you very much again Otis.
Best regards,
Ron
++++++++
Dear Vision-clearing friends,
Here is a further report on Ron's helping clear his child's vision from 20/70 to 20/30.
It does take a parent with a logical mind and scientific common sense to do it.
Otis
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Dear Otis,
Thank you for your message. I read those pages of Wildsoet Lab and Good Vision. I understand the effect of the minus lens. When I was teen. I needed stronger minus lenses every one or two years. I don't want my child to do the same thing that I did. I value his vision.
I test Mike's vision once a week. Yesterday I tested his vision again. He could read 4 of 5 letters of IVAC 20/25 line. It amazed me. Last week he could just read 5 of 6 letters of I-SEE Snellen 20/30 line. He is getting better and better. I think kid's vision can be restored much easier than adult.
As you know. There are so many people nearsighted in Hong Kong. I am one of them. Michael is in a grade 3 class with 20 classmates. Unfortunately there are already five students wearing minus glasses in his class. My wife has talked about plus prevention to a parent whose child is -1.50 D nearsighted. But she didn't really believe it. People prefer the minus lens the optometrists suggest. You are right. The Lord helps the people who help themselves.
I will get Mike proper medical checks certainly and we will go to the Polytechnic university to see the optometrist again when his vision gets better.
Thank you very much for your attention.
Best regards,
Ron
++++++++++++
> Dear Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 215 lines] > > Bill > > -- Fermez le Bush A Lieberma - 05 Jan 2007 02:10 GMT > I have changed the names of the people to > protect them. > > Best, > > Otis Dear vision prevention friends.
GOOD NEWS!!! Please disregard.
The names were changed to add another chapter to his fictional story.
Thanks!
Allen
Dr. Leukoma - 05 Jan 2007 02:52 GMT Otis Brown, the chaiman of the Force Heavy Plus on Children Society, must think that posts measured in feet actually get read.
DrG
> Good New, Majority-opinion Leukoma, > [quoted text clipped - 416 lines] > > > Bill > > > -- Fermez le Bush Dr. Leukoma - 05 Jan 2007 02:53 GMT > Otis Brown, the chaiman of the Force Heavy Plus on Children Society, > must think that posts measured in feet actually get read. > > DrG I stand corrected. They do get read...by Otis Brown.
Mike Ruskai - 03 Jan 2007 15:36 GMT >Can the difference in how people see be explained? By that I mean why people >who have the same prescription but don't appear to need them to the same >degree. I am -2.75 and get by without wearing glasses except for essentials >like driving, tv and movies and shopping. I know other people who are >surprised by that. Am I unusual and if I am why can I tolerate more than >other people seem to be able to? This is probably more a question of psychology. Why are you less bothered by blurry vision?
Perhaps you dislike glasses so much, you simply don't wear them unless absolutely necessary.
I went through such a phase when I was 12, but grew out of it as I realized how much I was missing by leaving the world in a blur.
 Signature - Mike
Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.
Katy - 04 Jan 2007 21:09 GMT >This is probably more a question of psychology. Why are you less >bothered by blurry vision? Is that a rhetorical question? I'd be interested to know myself!
>Perhaps you dislike glasses so much, you simply don't wear them unless >absolutely necessary. No, I don't dislike them, in fact I think they can be a stylish fashion accessory.
>I went through such a phase when I was 12, but grew out of it as I >realized how much I was missing by leaving the world in a blur. Yes but then I guess your glasses were maybe stronger than mine are?
Mike Ruskai - 08 Jan 2007 01:13 GMT >>This is probably more a question of psychology. Why are you less >>bothered by blurry vision? >Is that a rhetorical question? I'd be interested to know myself! Well, it's half-rhetorical, since I agree that the answer would be interesting. But I don't know the answer.
>>Perhaps you dislike glasses so much, you simply don't wear them unless >>absolutely necessary. >No, I don't dislike them, in fact I think they can be a stylish fashion >accessory. Well, there must be *some* reason you take them off. What is it?
>>I went through such a phase when I was 12, but grew out of it as I >>realized how much I was missing by leaving the world in a blur. >Yes but then I guess your glasses were maybe stronger than mine are? I'm -3.75 with contacts now, but was less back then (nearly 20 years ago). I was probably close to your current prescription.
 Signature - Mike
Ignore the Python in me to send e-mail.
Katy - 02 Feb 2007 23:04 GMT Mike, you said to me "Well, there must be *some* reason you take them off. What is it?".
I say: "I guess it's habit - I take them off when I've "finished" seeing something like the tv. Its what I've always done since I first had glasses because that's what I was told and it stuck. I figure i don't need them for a conversation across a room because it doesn't need 20/20 vision? But I have friends who'd disagree, that's why I asked the question, I wondered if there was a scientific explanation."
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