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Medical Forum / General / Vision / December 2006

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A Scientist, Dr. Colgate, suggests a lens choice for plus-prevention.

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otisbrown@pa.net - 16 Dec 2006 21:13 GMT
Dear Prevention-minded friends,

Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following
regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid
entry into progressive myopia -- as
previously discussed.

Otis

----- Original Message -----

From: Stirling Colgate

Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006

Subject: Re: The Majority-opinion argument against
plus-prevention

Otis,

I wrote this in order to offer some guidance about what
strength lens might be used in myopia prevention.

It can be posted on the web site if you want to.

Stirling

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From: Stirling A. Colgate

Subject: The Strength of Positive Lenses Needed to Alleviate
Progressive Myopia

The purpose of a positive lens is to transform optically the
near-point focal environment of reading a book or paper into an
optical image with focal properties of infinity. Lens "strengths"
are measured in diopters, which is the focal length of the lens
measured in inverse meters. A lens with a focal length of half a
meter is then one with a strength of 2 diopters.

Consider using a lens to image the sun onto a piece of paper
and making it catch fire as we used to do as children. This
teaches us that a lens of 1 diopter will focus the sun image onto
the paper when the lens is held one meter from the paper. This is
a relatively "weak" lens. A stronger one might focus the sun's
image onto the paper when held 8 inches or 20 cm from the paper.
This would be called a five diopter lens, (100 cm/20 cm) = 5
diopters. Conversely the same lens directed onto writing on the
same piece of paper will convert the image of the writing to the
focal properties of the distance to the sun, i.e., infinity.

The light rays simply follow a reverse path. For practical
purposes for the human eye, infinity is any object at a distance
of greater than 3 to 10 meters. Therefore if one looks at the
paper through a one diopter lens with the paper held one meter
from the lens the image will appear to the eyes of the viewer as
if it were at the distance of the sun, infinity. If the paper is
held closer to the viewer, the lens must be stronger in order to
produce the same result.

The fundamental assumption for myopia prevention is that the
eye adapts to its mean focal environment. Most of us want to see
distant objects without glasses, so-called normal vision.
However, most of us spend many hours a day reading. This is
performed at a distance of about 15 inches, half a meter from the
eye, a close focal environment. In order to artificially convert
the artificial focal environment of reading back to a natural one
of infinity, a positive lens of plus two diopters is needed.

A few shy young people will hold a book at 12 inches or even
closer. Then to prevent reading- induced myopia, a plus three
lens may be used. As a practical matter no one reads all the time
so that a somewhat weaker lens, say 1.5 diopters for reading, may
"hold" an eye with "normal" focal properties normal, i.e., a mean
relaxed focus of infinity.

On the other hand most young people will start doing
something about their progressive myopia only when they are
significantly myopic and then a somewhat stronger lens, say 2.5
diopters (and a mild head ache) can be used for a month until
partial focal restoration has occurred followed by a weaker one
for holding the gain. Unfortunately older people progressively
lose the physiological function of the growth in length of the
eyeball in response to the focal environment. The length of the
camera, the length of the eyeball, is the principle mechanism for
the long-term (greater than six months) adaptive focal mechanism
of the eye.

===============================

For additional review of Stirling Colgate's successful
use of the plus for vision-clearing read
Colgate to 20/20 on my site:

www.myopiafree.com

There is a strong scientific basis for
preventing the development of a negative
refractive STATE in the dynamic, natural
eye.

Best,

Otis
Neil Brooks - 16 Dec 2006 21:34 GMT
> Dear Prevention-minded friends,
>
> Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following

And he asked ME to follow your posts with this:

PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE READING ANY POST BY OTIS BROWN

If you didn't know better, you'd think this text was written entirely
ABOUT Otis ;-)

----

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html

Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience
Rory Coker, Ph.D.

The word "pseudo" means fake. The surest way to spot a fake is to know
as much as possible about the real thing-in this case, about science
itself. Knowing science does not mean simply knowing scientific facts
(such as the distance from earth to sun, the age of the earth, the
distinction between mammal and reptile, etc.) It means understanding
the nature of science-the criteria of evidence, the design of
meaningful experiments, the weighing of possibilities, the testing of
hypotheses, the establishment of theories, the many aspects of
scientific methods that make it possible to draw reliable conclusions
about the physical universe.

Because the media bombard us with nonsense, it is useful to consider
the earmarks of pseudoscience. The presence of even one of these
should arouse great suspicion. On the other hand, material displaying
none of these flaws might still be pseudoscience, because its
adherents invent new ways to fool themselves every day. Most of the
examples in this article are related to my field of physics, but
similar beliefs and behavior are associated with iridology, medical
astrology, meridian therapy, reflexology, subluxation-based
chiropractic, therapeutic touch, and other health-related
pseudosciences.

Pseudoscience displays an indifference to facts.
Instead of bothering to consult reference works or investigating
directly, its advocates simply spout bogus "facts" where needed. These
fictions are often central to the pseudoscientist's argument and
conclusions. Moreover, pseudoscientists rarely revise. The first
edition of a pseudoscience book is almost always the last, even though
the book remains in print for decades or even centuries. Even books
with obvious mistakes, errors, and misprints on every page may be
reprinted as is, over and over. Compare this to science textbooks that
see a new edition every few years because of the rapid accumulation of
new facts and insights.

Pseudoscience "research" is invariably sloppy.
Pseudoscientists clip newspaper reports, collect hearsay, cite other
pseudoscience books, and pore over ancient religious or mythological
works. They rarely or never make an independent investigation to check
their sources.

Pseudoscience begins with a hypothesis-usually one which is appealing
emotionally, and spectacularly implausible-and then looks only for
items which
appear to support it.  Conflicting evidence is ignored. Generally
speaking, the aim of
pseudoscience is to rationalize strongly held beliefs, rather than to
investigate or to test alternative possibilities. Pseudoscience
specializes in jumping to "congenial conclusions," grinding
ideological axes, appealing to preconceived ideas and to widespread
misunderstandings.

Pseudoscience is indifferent to criteria of valid evidence.
The emphasis is not on meaningful, controlled, repeatable scientific
experiments. Instead it is on unverifiable eyewitness testimony,
stories and tall tales, hearsay, rumor, and dubious anecdotes. Genuine
scientific literature is either ignored or misinterpreted.

Pseudoscience relies heavily on subjective validation.
Joe Blow puts jello on his head and his headache goes away. To
pseudoscience, this means jello cures headaches. To science this means
nothing, since no experiment was done. Many things were going on when
Joe Blow's headache went away-the moon was full, a bird flew
overhead,
the window was open, Joe had on his red shirt, etc.-and his headache
would have gone away eventually in any case, no matter what. A
controlled experiment would put many people suffering from headaches
in identical circumstances, except for the presence or absence of the
remedy it is desired to test, and compare the results which would then
have some chance of being meaningful. Many people think there must be
something to astrology because a newspaper horoscope describes them
perfectly. But close examination would reveal that the description is
general enough to cover virtually everyone. This phenomenon, called
subjective validation, is one of the foundations of popular support
for pseudoscience.

Pseudoscience depends on arbitrary conventions of human
culture, rather than on unchanging regularities of nature.
For instance, the interpretations of astrology depend on the names of
things, which are accidental and vary from culture to culture. If the
ancients had given the name Mars to the planet we call Jupiter, and
vice versa, astronomy could care less but astrology would be totally
different, because it depends solely on the name and has nothing to do
with the physical properties of the planet itself.

Pseudoscience always achieves a reduction to absurdity if pursued far
enough.  Maybe dowsers can somehow sense the presence of water or
minerals
under a field, but almost all claim they can dowse equally well from a
map! Maybe Uri Geller is "psychic," but are his powers really beamed
to him on a radio link with a flying saucer from the planet Hoova, as
he has claimed? Maybe plants are "psychic," but why does a bowl of mud
respond in exactly the same way, in the same "experiment?"

Pseudoscience always avoids putting its claims to a meaningful test.
Pseudoscientists never carry out careful, methodical experiments
themselves-and they also generally ignore results of those carried
out
by scientists. Pseudoscientists also never follow up. If one
pseudoscientist claims to have done an experiment (such as the "lost"
biorhythm studies of Hermann Swoboda that are alleged basis of the
modern pseudoscience of biorhythms), no other pseudoscientist ever
tries to duplicate it or to check him, even when the original results
are missing or questionable! Further, where a pseudoscientist claims
to have done an experiment with a remarkable result, he himself never
repeats it to check his results and procedures. This is in extreme
contrast with science, where crucial experiments are repeated by
scientists all over the world with ever-increasing precision.

Pseudoscience often contradicts itself, even in its own terms.
Such logical contradictions are simply ignored or rationalized away.
Thus, we should not be surprised when Chapter 1 of a book on dowsing
says that dowsers use newly cut twigs, because only "live" wood can
channel and focus the "earth-radiation" that
makes dowsing possible, whereas Chapter 5 states that nearly all
dowsers use metal or plastic rods.

Pseudoscience deliberately creates mystery where none
exists, by omitting crucial information and important details.
Anything can be made "mysterious" by omitting what is known about it
or presenting completely imaginary details. The "Bermuda Triangle"
books are classic examples of this tactic.

Pseudoscience does not progress.
There are fads, and a pseudoscientist may switch from one fad to
another (from ghosts to ESP research, from flying saucers to psychic
studies, from ESP research to looking for Bigfoot). But within a given
topic, no progress is made. Little or no new information or uncovered.
New theories are seldom proposed, and old concepts are rarely modified
or discarded in light of new "discoveries," since pseudoscience rarely
makes new "discoveries." The older the idea, the more respect it
receives. No natural phenomena or processes previously unknown to
science have ever been discovered by pseudoscientists. Indeed,
pseudoscientists almost invariably deal with phenomena well known to
scientists, but little known to the general public-so that the public
will swallow whatever the pseudoscientist wants to claim. Examples
include firewalking and "Kirlian" photography.

Pseudoscience attempts to persuade with rhetoric, propaganda, and
misrepresentation rather than valid evidence (which presumably does
not exist).
Pseudoscience books offer examples of almost every kind of fallacy of
logic and reason known to scholars and have invented some new ones of
their own. A favorite device is the non sequitur. Pseudoscientists
also love the "Galileo Argument." This consists of the pseudoscientist
comparing himself to Galileo, and saying that just as the
pseudoscientist is believed to be wrong, so Galileo was thought wrong
by his contemporaries therefore the pseudoscientist must be right too,
just as Galileo was. Clearly the conclusion does not follow! Moreover,
Galileo's ideas were tested, verified, and accepted promptly by his
scientific colleagues. The rejection came from the established
religion which favored the pseudoscience that Galileo's findings
contradicted.

Pseudoscience argues from ignorance, an elementary fallacy.
Many pseudoscientists base their claims on incompleteness of
information about nature, rather than on what is known at present. But
no claim can possibly be supported by lack of information. The fact
that people don't recognize what they see in the sky means only that
they don't recognize what they saw. This fact is not evidence that
flying saucers are from outer space. The statement "Science cannot
explain" is common in pseudoscience literature. In many cases, science
has no interest in the supposed phenomena because there is no evidence
it exists; in other cases, the scientific explanation is well known
and well established, but the pseudoscientist doesn't know this or
deliberately ignores it to create mystery.

Pseudoscience argues from alleged exceptions, errors, anomalies,
strange events, and suspect claims-rather than from well-established
regularities of
nature.  The experience of scientists over the past 400 years is that
claims
and reports that describe well-understood objects behaving in strange
and incomprehensible ways tend to reduce upon investigation to
deliberate frauds, honest mistakes, garbled accounts,
misinterpretations, outright fabrications, and stupid blunders. It is
not wise to accept such reports at face value, without checking them.
Pseudoscientists always take such reports as literally true, without
independent verification.

Pseudoscience appeals to false authority, to emotion, sentiment, or
distrust of established fact.
A high-school dropout is accepted as an expert on archaeology, though
he has never made any study of it! A psychoanalyst is accepted as an
expert on all of human history, not to mention physics, astronomy, and
mythology, even though his claims are inconsistent with everything
known in all four fields. A movie star swears it's true, so it must
be. A physicist says a "psychic" couldn't possibly have fooled him
with simple magic tricks, although the physicist knows nothing about
magic and sleight of hand. Emotional appeals are common. ("If it makes
you feel good, it must be true." "In your heart you know it's right.")
Pseudoscientists are fond of imaginary conspiracies. ("There's plenty
of evidence for flying saucers, but the government keeps it secret.")
And they argue from irrelevancies: When confronted by inconvenient
facts, they simply reply, "Scientists don't know everything!"

Pseudoscience makes extraordinary claims and advances fantastic
theories that contradict what is known about nature.
They not only provide no evidence that their claims are true. They
also ignore all findings that contradict their conclusions. ("Flying
saucers have to come from somewhere-so the earth is hollow, and they
come from inside." "This electric spark I'm making with this
electrical apparatus is actually not a spark at all, but rather a
supernatural manifestation of psycho-spiritual energy." "Every human
is surrounded by an impalpable aura of electromagnetic energy, the
auric egg of the ancient Hindu seers, which mirrors the human's every
mood and condition.")

Pseudoscientists invent their own vocabulary in which many terms lack
precise or unambiguous definitions, and some have no definition at
all.  Listeners are often forced to interpret the statements according
to
their own preconceptions. What, for for example, is "biocosmic
energy?" Or a "psychotronic amplification system?" Pseudoscientists
often attempt to imitate the jargon of scientific and technical fields
by spouting gibberish that sounds scientific and technical. Quack
"healers" would be lost without the term "energy," but their use of
the term has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of energy used
by physicists.

Pseudoscience appeals to the truth-criteria of scientific methodology
while simultaneously denying their validity.  Thus, a procedurally
invalid experiment which seems to show that
astrology works is advanced as "proof" that astrology is correct,
while thousands of procedurally sound experiments that show it does
not work are ignored. The fact that someone got away with simple magic
tricks in one scientific lab is "proof" that he is a psychic superman,
while the fact that he was caught cheating in several other labs is
ignored.

Pseudoscience claims that the phenomena it studies are "jealous."
The phenomena appear only under certain vaguely specified but vital
conditions (such as when no doubters or skeptics are present; when no
experts are present; when nobody is watching; when the "vibes" are
right; or only once in human history.) Science holds that genuine
phenomena must be capable of study by anyone with the proper equipment
and that all procedurally valid studies must give consistent results.
No genuine phenomenon is "jealous" in this way. There is no way to
construct a TV set or a radio that will function only when no skeptics
are present! A man who claims to be a concert-class violinist, but
does not appear to have ever owned a violin and who refuses to play
when anyone is around who might hear him, is most likely lying about
his ability to play the violin.

Pseudoscientific "explanations" tend to be by scenario.
That is, we are told a story, but nothing else; we have no description
of any possible physical process. For instance, Immanuel Velikovsky
(1895-1979) claimed that another planet passing near the earth caused
the earth's spin axis to flip upside down. This is all he said. He
gave no mechanisms. But the mechanism is all-important, because the
laws of physics rule out the process as impossible. That is, the
approach of another planet cannot cause a planet's spin axis to flip.
If Velikovsky had discovered some way that a planet could flip
another's spin axis, he would presumably have described the mechanism
by which it can happen. The bald statement itself, without the
underlying mechanism, conveys no information at all. Velikovsky said
that Venus was once a comet, and this comet was spewed out of a
volcano on Jupiter. Since planets do not resemble comets (which are
rock/ice snowball-like debris with connection whatsoever to volcanoes)
and since Jupiter is not known to have volcanoes anyway (or even a
solid surface!), no actual physical process could underlie
Velikovsky's assertions. He gave us words, related to one another
within a sentence, but the relationships were alien to the universe we
actually live in, and he gave no explanation for how these could
exist. He provided stories, not genuine theories.

Pseudoscientists often appeal to the ancient human habit of magical
thinking.  Magic, sorcery, witchcraft-these are based on spurious
similarity,
false analogy, false cause-and-effect connections, etc. That is,
inexplicable influences and connections between things are assumed
from the beginning-not found by investigation. (If you step on a
crack
in the sidewalk without saying a magic word, your mother will crack a
bone in her body; eating heart-shaped leaves is good for heart
ailments; shining red light on the body increases blood production;
rams are aggressive so someone born in the sign of the ram is
aggressive; fish are "brain food" because the meat of the fish
resembles brain tissue, etc.)

Pseudoscience relies heavily on anachronistic thinking.
The older the idea, the more attractive it is to pseudoscience-it's
the wisdom of the ancients!-especially if the idea is transparently
wrong and has long been discarded by science. Many journalists have
trouble in comprehending this point. A typical reporter writing about
astrology may think a thorough job can be done by interviewing six
astrologers and one astronomer. The astronomer says it's all bunk; the
six astrologers say it's great stuff and really works and for $50
they'll be glad to cast anyone's horoscope. (No doubt!) To many
reporters, and apparently to many editors and their readers, this
would confirm astrology six to one!

This table contrasts some of the characteristics of science and
pseudoscience

[TABLE SNIPPED.  WOULD NOT DISPLAY CORRECTLY.  SEE:
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html ]

This table could be greatly expanded, because science and
pseudoscience are precisely opposed ways of viewing nature. Science
relies on-and insists on-self-questioning, testing and analytical
thinking that make it hard to fool yourself or to avoid facing facts.
Pseudoscience, on the other hand, preserves the ancient, natural,
irrational, unobjective modes of thought that are hundreds of
thousands of years older than science-thought processes that have
given rise to superstitions and other fanciful and mistaken ideas
about man and nature-from voodoo to racism; from the flat earth to
the
house-shaped universe with God in the attic, Satan in the cellar and
man on the ground floor; from doing rain dances to torturing and
brutalizing the mentally ill to drive out the demons that possess
them. Pseudoscience encourages people to believe anything they want.
It supplies specious "arguments" for fooling yourself into thinking
that any and all beliefs are equally valid. Science begins by saying,
let's forget about what we believe to be so, and try by investigation
to find out what actually is so. These roads don't cross; they lead in
completely opposite directions.

Some confusion on this point is caused by what we might call
"crossover." "Science" is not an honorary badge you wear, it's an
activity you do. Whenever you cease that activity, you cease being a
scientist. A distressing amount of pseudoscience is generated by
scientists who are well trained in one field but plunge into another
field of which they are ignorant. A physicist who claims to have found
a new principle of biology-or a biologist who claims to have found a
new principle of physics-is almost invariably doing pseudoscience.
And
so are those who forge data, or suppresses data that clash with their
preconceptions, or refuse to let others see their data for independent
evaluation. Science is like a high peak of intellectual integrity,
fairness, and rationality. The peak is slippery and smooth. It
requires a tremendous effort to remain near it. Slacking of effort
carries one away and into pseudoscience. Some pseudoscience is
generated by individuals with a small amount of specialized scientific
or technical training who are not professional scientists and do not
comprehend the nature of the scientific enterprise-yet think of
themselves as "scientists."

One might wonder if there are not examples of "crossovers" in the
other direction; that is people who have been thought by scientists to
be doing pseudoscience, who eventually were accepted as doing valid
science, and whose ideas were ultimately accepted by scientists. From
what we have just outlined, one would expect this to happen extremely
rarely, if ever. In fact, neither I nor any informed colleague I have
ever asked about this, knows of any single case in which this has
happened during the hundreds of years the full scientific method has
been known to and used by scientists. There are many cases in which a
scientist has been thought wrong by colleagues but later-when new
information comes in-is shown to be correct. Like anyone else,
scientists can get hunches that something is possible without having
enough evidence to convince their associates that they are correct.
Such people do not become pseudoscientists, unless they continue to
maintain that their ideas are correct when contradictory evidence
piles up. Being wrong or mistaken is unavoidable; we are all human,
and we all commit errors and blunders. True scientists, however, are
alert to the possibility of blunder and are quick to correct mistakes.
Pseudoscientists do not. In fact, a short definition of pseudoscience
is "a method for excusing, defending, and preserving errors."

Pseudoscience often strikes educated, rational people as too
nonsensical and preposterous to be dangerous and as a source of
amusement rather than fear. Unfortunately, this is not a wise
attitude. Pseudoscience can be extremely dangerous.

Penetrating political systems, it justifies atrocities in the name of
racial purity

Penetrating the educational system, it can drive out science and
sensibility;

In the field of health, it dooms thousands to unnecessary death or
suffering

Penetrating religion, it generates fanaticism, intolerance, and holy
war

Penetrating the communications media, it can make it difficult for
voters to obtain factual information on important public issues.
Signature

Dr. Coker is Professor of Physics, University of Texas at Austin.

Salmon Egg - 16 Dec 2006 22:49 GMT
On 12/16/06 1:13 PM, in article
1166303609.333789.81390@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "otisbrown@pa.net"

> Dear Prevention-minded friends,
>
> Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following
> regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid
> entry into progressive myopia -- as
> previously discussed.

<snip>

I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe
something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's background.
I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to
help prevent progressive myopia.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Neil Brooks - 16 Dec 2006 22:57 GMT
> I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe
> something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's background.
> I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to
> help prevent progressive myopia.

But why -- if/since they're KNOWN to induce double vision in some
(unsuspecting) people, and since they've failed to impact myopic
progression in ANY but the near-point esophores, in testing --
shouldn't the recommendation be that anybody that wants to try them
work with an optometrist to be sure that binocular function is
evaluated and prism, if appropriate, is prescribed.

Again, even Don Rehm seems to get this.  Can't figure out why this
other guy doesn't, and why he shows such callous disregard for those in
whom he has CAUSED double-vision....
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 01:16 GMT
> I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe
> something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's
> background.
> I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to
> help prevent progressive myopia.

Dr. Stirling Colgate is a physicist affiliated with the Los Alamos nuclear
project since 1942. He won a prestigious scientific award in 2006, but it's
been a long time since he put together a human efficacy study.

As a teenager, Colgate "cured" himself of accommodative spasm and became
convinced that plus lenses would also be effective against anatomical
myopia.

One has to respect Dr. Colgate's achievements in nuclear physics. We respect
Linus Pauling too, but nobody gobbles vitamin C anymore.

http://egadgets1.blogspot.com/2006/07/astroblaster.html

-MT
Dan Abel - 17 Dec 2006 01:31 GMT
> One has to respect Dr. Colgate's achievements in nuclear physics. We respect
> Linus Pauling too, but nobody gobbles vitamin C anymore.

I'm sure many people do.  It's a lot easier to slap on a plus lens or
take vitamin C than to actually deal with the problem.
Salmon Egg - 17 Dec 2006 06:11 GMT
On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article
Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
<mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote:

> As a teenager, Colgate "cured" himself of accommodative spasm and became
> convinced that plus lenses would also be effective against anatomical
> myopia.

I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to interpret it. When
you say "anatomical myopia" do you restrict the term to in situ anatomy? I
can understand how using plus lenses might not improve existing myopia. The
question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from becoming even more
myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it
happens to many bookworms?

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 17 Dec 2006 11:27 GMT
> I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to interpret it. When
> you say "anatomical myopia" do you restrict the term to in situ anatomy? I
> can understand how using plus lenses might not improve existing myopia. The
> question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from becoming even more
> myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it
> happens to many bookworms?

Essentially, what you are asking is whether or not making the eye
artificially myopic with a plus lens will prevent the eye from becoming
myopic.  This is like saying a positive eye will prevent itself from
becoming more positive.

DrG
Salmon Egg - 17 Dec 2006 20:31 GMT
On 12/17/06 3:27 AM, in article
1166354835.283961.240230@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma"
<drg@leukoma.com> wrote:

> Essentially, what you are asking is whether or not making the eye
> artificially myopic with a plus lens will prevent the eye from becoming
> myopic.  This is like saying a positive eye will prevent itself from
> becoming more positive.

1. If I were using chemical terminology my questions would be:

2. Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given
instant stabilize the focal properties of that eye?

Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?

My guess is that the answer to the first question is no.

My guess is that the answer to the second depends upon who gives the answer.

Bill

-- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 18 Dec 2006 01:27 GMT
> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?

Absolutely not.  Glad that I could be of help.

The problem is that you are not approaching the problem with the right
set of tools.  You expect that everyone will just translate the
research into your own terms, so that you don't have to break a sweat.
Oh, you and Otis both.

DrG
Salmon Egg - 18 Dec 2006 05:39 GMT
On 12/17/06 5:27 PM, in article
1166405244.597708.28390@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma"
<drg@leukoma.com> wrote:

>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
>> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> DrG

Scientists sometimes try to explain their work in a way so that a person
with a decent scientific education, say at the graduate level, can
understand the essence. The Scientific American sets a decent standard for
explaining science to non-specialists. The American Scientist, Science, and
Nature may require somewhat greater specialized knowledge of jargon and
other details. But their entire raisons d'être is for communicating to
scientists. I do not see much of that kind of communication happening for
optometry. I realize that such an undertaking (explanation in simple but
non-trivial terms) cannot be forced upon one.

Although I cannot expect the typical scientist to match up to Richard
Feynman, he really tried to explain quantum physics at a simple level
without dumbing it down.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 18 Dec 2006 12:49 GMT
> Scientists sometimes try to explain their work in a way so that a person
> with a decent scientific education, say at the graduate level, can
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> optometry. I realize that such an undertaking (explanation in simple but
> non-trivial terms) cannot be forced upon one.

Why don't you come visit me for an eye exam.  I'll answer any question
you ask and try to put it into simpler terms you can understand, such
as astigmatism is like a football instead of a basketball.  You might
even be satisfied with that kind of an analogy.

> Although I cannot expect the typical scientist to match up to Richard
> Feynman, he really tried to explain quantum physics at a simple level
> without dumbing it down.

Some writers have that talent.  I don't make my living that way.

DrG
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 05:40 GMT
On 12/18/06 4:49 AM, in article
1166446154.284097.236340@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma"
<drg@leukoma.com> wrote:

> Why don't you come visit me for an eye exam.  I'll answer any question
> you ask and try to put it into simpler terms you can understand, such
> as astigmatism is like a football instead of a basketball.  You might
> even be satisfied with that kind of an analogy.

I KNOW what astigmatism is! If I depended upon the football analogy I would
know less than I do. BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a
lens designers' astigmatism.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
William Stacy, O.D. - 19 Dec 2006 06:42 GMT
> BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a
> lens designers' astigmatism.

That's news to me.  How is it different?  My working definition is
simply an optical element that has a cylindrical component.

w.stacy, o.d.
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 21:43 GMT
On 12/18/06 10:42 PM, in article
kRLhh.10723$hI.4208@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D."
<wstacy@obase.net> wrote:

>> BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a
>> lens designers' astigmatism.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> w.stacy, o.d.

Astigmatism shows up in perfectly spherical multi-element lenses such as
used for cameras. It is an off-axis aberration in which a point does not
image as a point on the film plane. In pure astigmatism, a point can be
focused so as to produce lines, either radial or tangential with respect to
the cone at that angle. It is the job of the lens designer to balance this
defect by selecting usually SPHERICAL curvatures and indexes of the elements
forming the lens.

In optometry, I believe, astigmatism is an on-axis visual defect. Short
straight line segments may not image as straight line segments (depending
upon orientation) because of cylindrical error in the eye's optical system

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
William Stacy, O.D. - 20 Dec 2006 05:54 GMT
Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their
definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that
stretches out the focal points into lines.  Your "pure" astigmatism is
the same thing as our plain old astigmatism, except as you say, ours is
generally defined on axis.  I'm not sure what you are getting at in the
last sentince below. In "your kind" of off axis astigmatism and in "our"
on axis astigmatism, distant points are focused to lines rather than
points. And in both kinds, objects composed of short line segments will
similarly be imaged as disjointed when their orientation is misaligned
with that of the astigmatism. This occurs not just in eyes but also in
the spherocylindrical ophthalmic lenses that we use to correct such eyes.

w.stacy, o.d.

> On 12/18/06 10:42 PM, in article
> kRLhh.10723$hI.4208@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D."
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> Bill
> -- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 20 Dec 2006 13:50 GMT
Do you ever get the sense that some people just lead you around in
circles?

> Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their
> definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> > Bill
> > -- Fermez le Bush
Salmon Egg - 20 Dec 2006 20:35 GMT
On 12/19/06 9:54 PM, in article
me4ih.4797$yC5.1286@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D."
<wstacy@obase.net> wrote:

> Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their
> definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> with that of the astigmatism. This occurs not just in eyes but also in
> the spherocylindrical ophthalmic lenses that we use to correct such eyes.

Actually, the definition of astigmatism used by lens designers is very
specific. It arises from off-axis rays seeing different radial and
tangential curvatures. In pure astigmatism, points get focused into two
separate lines at different distances from the lens. There also is an
off-axis aberration called coma which is of little importance to  optometry.

These aberrations are treated by considering the wavefront deviations from a
true sphere after it passes through a lens. When the actual wavefront is
approximated by a sum of quadratic expressions, each coefficient is assigned
a name representing the amount of that aberration.

To truly represent a wavefront requires higher order functions than
quadratic, and that leads to higher order aberrations. That is where
Zernicke functions get into the act.

Rather than belabor the point, I will just mention that astigmatism is
defined by two coefficients that tell how much xy and x^2-y^2 must be added
to the spherical component x^2+y^2 to best describe the distorted wavefront.
These two coeffients define the amount and orientation of the astigmatism.

Bill
William Stacy - 20 Dec 2006 23:42 GMT
Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens
designers" is only defined in terms of wave front polynomials?  I
seriously doubt that to be the case, since wave front is fairly new
while precision optics is fairly old technology.  They must have a
concise definition somewhere.  Perhaps part of the problem is that in
ophthalmic optics, astigmatism is not considered to be an aberration,
except the type known as "irregular astigmatism".  Regular astigmatism
is simply a lens or optical system where the power or focal length
varies along the various meridians  of a plane intersecting its optical
axis. We also sometimes deal with astigmatism induced by lens tilt and
off axis viewing, as in highly "wrapped" sunglasses, but we correct for
this using ordinary sphero-cylindrical notation.  Irregular astigmatism
and really all high order aberrations are  not optically correctible
without rigid contact lenses, so we generally ignore them all.

w.stacy, o.d.

>Actually, the definition of astigmatism used by lens designers is very
>specific. It arises from off-axis rays seeing different radial and
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>  
William Stacy - 20 Dec 2006 23:54 GMT
I guess I should have added "except when corrected with wave front
guided laser surgery".

> .  Irregular astigmatism and really all high order aberrations are  
> not optically correctible without rigid contact lenses, so we
> generally ignore them all.
Salmon Egg - 21 Dec 2006 01:38 GMT
On 12/20/06 3:54 PM, in article V2kih.806$sR.72@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net,

> I guess I should have added "except when corrected with wave front
> guided laser surgery".
>
>> .  Irregular astigmatism and really all high order aberrations are
>> not optically correctible without rigid contact lenses, so we
>> generally ignore them all.

Again, there seems to be a divergence of nomenclature. What you guys call
wavefront surgery, I would call surgical figuring. An example of figuring is
when a spherical mirror is made parabolic for use as a primary mirror in an
astronomical telescope. The primary mirror of the Hubble telescope, which
was not supposed to be a parabola, was not figured correctly.

Optically, I would think that the biggest problem would be to measure the
error. I am not familiar with the techniques used, but I would guess that
you use an interferometer of some kind. It would be no big trick to measure
how much the surface of the cornea deviates from its ideal shape. It is
another story when it comes to what is in the imaging path. I am curious
enough to look that up, but have not done so yet.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Scott Seidman - 21 Dec 2006 13:37 GMT
Salmon Egg <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:C1AF259E.52B70%
salmonegg@sbcglobal.net:

> wavefront surgery,

It's named because it is guided by wavefront measurement--that is, the
tool, and not the outcome.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Salmon Egg - 21 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT
On 12/20/06 3:42 PM, in article 1Ujih.800$sR.634@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net,

> Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens designers" is
> only defined in terms of wave front polynomials?  I seriously doubt that to be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> high order aberrations are  not optically correctible without rigid contact
> lenses, so we generally ignore them all.

This discussion is making my point that astigmatism as defined by lens
designers is not the astigmatism defined by optometrists.

I will admit not having historical knowledge of how aberrations were handled
and defined. Although I am not a lens designer I have had to learn something
about aberration. My bible is Born and Wolf¹s Principles of Optics. Chapter
V covers the geometrical theory of aberrations. The rays exiting the optical
system define a wavefront in terms of a surface normal to the rays. It is
this surface that deviates from a sphere that characterizes perfect imaging.
This chapter covers the primary Seidel aberrations; spherical, coma,
astigmatism, curvature of field, and distortion.

Chapter IX covers the diffraction theory of aberrations.

-- Fermez le Bush
Scott Seidman - 21 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT
William Stacy <wstacy@obase.net> wrote in news:1Ujih.800$sR.634
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:

> Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens
> designers" is only defined in terms of wave front polynomials?

I think more like "The definition of astigmatism used by opthalmic lens
designers is that which can be described by a second order Zernicke
polynomial.  More complex abberations require higher order polynomials".  
Sometimes you might hear terms like "trefoil" or "quadrafoil" to describe
some higher order abberations without invoking the Zernicke gods.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 14:10 GMT
> I think more like "The definition of astigmatism used by opthalmic lens
> designers is that which can be described by a second order Zernicke
> polynomial.  More complex abberations require higher order polynomials".
> Sometimes you might hear terms like "trefoil" or "quadrafoil" to describe
> some higher order abberations without invoking the Zernicke gods.

...not to mention secondary astigmatism.

DrG
Mike Tyner - 18 Dec 2006 21:30 GMT
> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?

You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.

-MT
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 05:43 GMT
On 12/18/06 1:30 PM, in article
TPidnXRvQKX6lRrYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
<mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
>> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?
>
> You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.
>
> -MT

Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 19 Dec 2006 12:41 GMT
> Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma.

I think it depends on how one translates your term "anatomical focal
kinetics," which I too to mean the mechanism by which the posterior
chamber elongates.  I think Mike interpreted it differently, which
underscores the need for the terminology you don't seem to want to use.

DrG
Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 13:23 GMT
>>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given
>>> instant
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
> Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma.

I'm not concerned. :)

You did say "given instant" so I assumed you weren't talking about the
development of myopia.

Bottom line, you can't accommodate without converging, can't converge
without accommodating. Even in presbyopia, the innervation remains the same.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 19 Dec 2006 05:53 GMT
Yet again, Mike only PARTIALLY understands the
behavior of the accommodation SYSTEM and
the convergence system.

For SHORT TERM, in the matter of 2 to 3 seconds, the
accommodation system does receive an engineering "kick"
from the convergence system.

But longer term, each accommodation system is
controlled by micro-blur sensed at the surface
of the retina.

But since Mike does not understand this type of
engineered system, let us call his simplistic
notion the "Majority opinion".

Best,

Otis

> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?

You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.

-MT

> > Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant
> > cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?
>
> You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 13:41 GMT
> Yet again, Mike only PARTIALLY understands the
> behavior of the accommodation SYSTEM and
> the convergence system.

Like you know what to do with a cover paddle.

> For SHORT TERM, in the matter of 2 to 3 seconds, the
> accommodation system does receive an engineering "kick"
> from the convergence system.

Again, you rely on your own imagination as your authority.

> But longer term, each accommodation system is
> controlled by micro-blur sensed at the surface
> of the retina.

So six diopters base out OU wouldn't change anything.

> But since Mike does not understand this type of
> engineered system, let us call his simplistic
> notion the "Majority opinion".

Non-sequitur. If you care.

-MT
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 12:21 GMT
> I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to
> interpret it. When you say "anatomical myopia" do you
> restrict the term to in situ anatomy?

Not sure what you're asking; "anatomical" means physical myopia due to axial
length. Otis does not distinguish axial myopia from "functional" myopia,
which is accommodative spasm. In the young, the two types often coexist.

> I can understand how using plus lenses might not improve
> existing myopia.

But that's exactly what Stirling Colgate did, according to Otis, something
like 6 diopters of it.

When a 14-year-old "recovers" from 6 or more diopters of myopia, the most
likely explanation (other than diabetes) is that the myopia was due to
excess accommodation, not axial length. Functional myopia would respond to
"relaxation" techniques. Anatomical myopia would not.

> The question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from
> becoming even more myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball
> from lengthening the way it happens to many bookworms?

There are several studies that test this question directly or indirectly,
and almost all of them indicate that plus lenses, or reading without
glasses, or bifocals make no real difference in the progress of myopia. If
it worked, they'd all show pronounced differences between experimental and
control groups. They don't, in fact sometimes it goes the other way - full
correction and full-time wear seem more preventative than "undercorrection"
(a form of "plus".)

"..myopic progression is connected with much use of the eyes in reading and
close work and with short reading distance but .. progression cannot be
reduced by diminishing accommodation with bifocals or by reading without
spectacles."

-MT
Dr Judy - 19 Dec 2006 14:12 GMT
> On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article
> Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it
> happens to many bookworms?

1) Anatomical myopia is myopia due to mismatch between the total
refractive power of the refractive elements of a given eye and the
length of that eye.  It is determined with the accommodative system at
rest (usually with cycloplegia).  Accomodativ spasm is myopia due to
over accommodation.

2) Plus lenses at near have been clinically trialed in humans many
times and plus lenses worn full time have been trialed a few times as
prevention for myopia.  In some trials, the plus lenses slowed myopia
progression slightly, usually only for the first year of wear and to an
amount under 1D.  Human myopic eyes using plus continued to have myopic
progression even in the trials where myopia was slowed.  In one study,
relative plus resulted in increased, not decreased, myopia progression.

So the answer is no, plus lenses cannot prevent myopia.

Dr Judy
otisbrown@pa.net - 20 Dec 2006 14:34 GMT
Subject:  The SECOND OPINION on plus-prevention.

The study conducted by Oakley-Young involved the use of a
"high placed" plus.  The plus was placed so the child could not
AVOID LOOKING THROUGH THE PLUS.  These other "plus"
studies used a lower, small-segment plus, so the child WITH
NO INSTRUCTIONS ON USE, could completely AVOID
LOOKING THROUGH THE PLUS.  Even so, it is difficult
to run a plus-prevention study -- if the person himself does
not know, nor understand the reasons for the plus.

But under the above circumstance, the Oakley-Young study,
using a HIGH PLUS, resulted in the single-minus going
DOWN at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year, while the rate
of the "plus" group was close-to 0 diopters per year,

And this was over a period of four years.

The implications of this result, is that a "pure-plus" study,
or effort COULD BE EFFECTIVE, if:

1.  The person were instructed in the PROPER USE
OF A STRONGER PLUS.

2.  Had the intellect and motivation to use the plus
PROPERLY in a four-year college.

3.  Undertood college statistics.

4.  Had the gumption to be a participant in this
type of study on an intellectual level.

5.  Was a pilot, or knew the value of retaining
a refractove state of zero or better during a
four year college.

6.  Understood plus-prevention as the second-opinion.

Just one man's opinion.

Otis

) Plus lenses at near have been clinically trialed in humans many
times and plus lenses worn full time have been trialed a few times as
prevention for myopia.  In some trials, the plus lenses slowed myopia
progression slightly, usually only for the first year of wear and to an

amount under 1D.  Human myopic eyes using plus continued to have myopic

progression even in the trials where myopia was slowed.  In one study,
relative plus resulted in increased, not decreased, myopia progression.

So the answer is no, plus lenses cannot prevent myopia.

Dr Judy

> > On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article
> > Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Dr Judy
Dr. Leukoma - 20 Dec 2006 15:56 GMT
We've listened to your drivel long enough, Otis.  This study is ancient
by any standards, but it is the only fig leaf you have to stand behind.

DrG

> Subject:  The SECOND OPINION on plus-prevention.
>
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
> >
> > Dr Judy
Neil Brooks - 20 Dec 2006 16:01 GMT
These were near-point esophores, you dishonest old coot.

http://www.myopia.org/bifocals.htm

THIS is why YOU induce DOUBLE VISION in the unwary and trusting.

Sick, sick, pathetic, old man......
otisbrown@pa.net - 20 Dec 2006 20:10 GMT
Dear Bill,

1.  Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length
CHANGE)
will be produced when you apply a -3 diopter lens to a population of
fundamental, or natural eyes.

This is neatly shown by Wildsoet's dynamic-eye paradigm, as
blue-tinted eyes.

Thus if you forced a soldier to wear a -3 diopter lens for six months,
(from zero diopters), his refactive STATE would change by
-2 diopters.

If you took that in for an eye-exam, Judy would have
the soldier read the chart.  20/140 is as good as the
soldier could do.  And yes, by placing a -2 diopter lens
on his eyes, he could again read the 20/20 line.

Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that
this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as
the majority-opinion.

The second-opinion would say that the natural eye
is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter
lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process.

But opinions differ on the proven dynamic behavior
of all natural eyes.

See:

http://vision.berkeley.edu/wildsoet/myopiaprimer.html

For the neat animation graphics of the natural eye's behavior.

Best,

Otis

> 1) Anatomical myopia is myopia due to mismatch between the total
> refractive power of the refractive elements of a given eye and the
> length of that eye.  It is determined with the accommodative system at
> rest (usually with cycloplegia).  Accomodativ spasm is myopia due to
> over accommodation.

> > On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article
> > Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Dr Judy
Mike Tyner - 21 Dec 2006 00:20 GMT
> 1.  Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length
> CHANGE)
> will be produced when you apply a -3 diopter lens to a population of
> fundamental, or natural eyes.

According to Otis.

Schools of medicine and optometry teach that it doesn't. So you're lying.

> This is neatly shown by Wildsoet's dynamic-eye paradigm, as
> blue-tinted eyes.

Wildsoet's "paradigm" does not apply after age 3 or so. So you're lying.

> Thus if you forced a soldier to wear a -3 diopter lens for six months,
> (from zero diopters), his refactive STATE would change by
> -2 diopters.

It clearly doesn't happen, so you're lying.

> Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that
> this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as
> the majority-opinion.

You're lying about the logic part. There is no logic to arguing something
that doesn't happen.

> The second-opinion would say that the natural eye
> is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter
> lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process.

The second-opinion is based upon your own imagination.

> But opinions differ on the proven dynamic behavior
> of all natural eyes.

Your opinion doesn't change what happens. -3 myopes don't usually become -5
myopes in 6 months.

-MT
Dan Abel - 21 Dec 2006 01:55 GMT
> > 1.  Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length
> > CHANGE)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Schools of medicine and optometry teach that it doesn't. So you're lying.

Do schools teach about fundamental or natural eyes?
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 02:12 GMT
> Do schools teach about fundamental or natural eyes?

I guess this reflects a fundamental flaw in the curriculum.

DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 02:10 GMT
> > Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that
> > this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as
> > the majority-opinion.
> > The second-opinion would say that the natural eye
> > is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter
> > lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process.

I feel that I am peering Through The Looking Glass and reading
Jabberwocky.

DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 14:58 GMT
Dear Bill,

I posted Dr. Colgate's remarks as a counter to those
people who insist that "...a scientists BELIEVE".

Stirling is a physicist like you.

If you will contact me from my site:

www.myopiafree.com

by email I will send you his complete C.V.

It is indeed impressive, and he is a
member of the National Academy of Science -- as
I recall.

Best,

Otis

> On 12/16/06 1:13 PM, in article
> 1166303609.333789.81390@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "otisbrown@pa.net"
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Bill
> -- Fermez le Bush
A Lieberma - 17 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT
> -- as
> I recall.

Dear Bill,

When you get this made up list of credentials from a person who has no
credibility, please post to the group.

Thanks!

Allen
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 00:51 GMT
> The fundamental assumption for myopia prevention is that the
> eye adapts to its mean focal environment.

as·sume (-sm)
tr.v. as·sumed, as·sum·ing, as·sumes
1. To take upon oneself: assume responsibility; assume another's debts.
2. To undertake the duties of (an office): assumed the presidency.
3. To take on; adopt: "The god assumes a human form" John Ruskin.
4. To put on; don: The queen assumed a velvet robe.
5. To affect the appearance or possession of; feign.
6. To take for granted; suppose: assumed that prices would rise.
7. To take over without justification; seize: assume control.
8. To take up or receive into heaven.

> A few shy young people will hold a book at 12 inches or even
> closer. Then to prevent reading- induced myopia, a plus three
> lens may be used.

They get nearsighted anyway. We tell 'em not to read so close and focus away
occasionally. That works better than lenses. Neither one makes much
difference compared to atropine.

> The length of the
> camera, the length of the eyeball, is the principle mechanism for
> the long-term (greater than six months) adaptive focal mechanism
> of the eye.

So you've found a treatment that stops axial growth in myopia? We can't get
it to work in controlled studies, except occasionally as a fluke.

> For additional review of Stirling Colgate's successful
> use of the plus for vision-clearing read
> Colgate to 20/20 on my site:

"Clearing" means cure, if you care what you're saying.

See, you've made a public declaration that this Dr. Colgate's has a
"successful" therapy which will restore vision loss due to myopia. Please
tell us more.

You and your unsuspecting public are the only ones who believe it.

> There is a strong scientific basis for
> preventing the development of a negative
> refractive STATE in the dynamic, natural
> eye.

There is a strong scientific basis for concluding neither you nor Dr.
Colgate have access to Medline.

-MT
Dr. Leukoma - 17 Dec 2006 05:02 GMT
> Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following
> regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid
> entry into progressive myopia -- as
> previously discussed.

Ahem.  Ahem.  There is simply no credible visual scientist today who
thinks that plus lenses can stop the progression of myopia.  None, zip,
zero, nada.  Therefore, you will not find any serious papers being
published using plus lenses to treat myopia anymore.

So, Otis, it looks like you have this particular niche all to yourself.
I know you enjoy it, and you can print all the inane drivel that you
want.  Heck, some people may actually believe you, and if they have
lots of time to waste, well who is going to stop them?

But, the one thing I won't do is to propagate a bad idea, an old idea,
a disproven idea, discarded onto the junk heap of pseudo-science.

DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 15:09 GMT
So, Leukoma,

You are saying that:

1.  The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as
per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm, and that:

2.  A -3 diopter lens has NO EFFECT on the
refractive STATE of a population of fundamental eyes.

3. With measurements made OBJECTIVELY with
a retinoscope/cycloplegic.

4.  This testing PROVES that the refractive STATE
of the eye FOLLOWS the average value of accommodation.

Stirling got is RIGHT.  Wildsoet's blue-eye tint paradigm
is confirmed.

So let us say that preventing a negative refractive STATE
of the natural eye is possible -- if the person himself
has a competent grasp of this scientific paradigm.

See, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", by
Thomas Kuhn, to understand the use of mathematical
models to represent experimental reality.

And let us just describe your box-camera PARADIGM,
the majority-opinion and let is go at that.

Best,

Otis

> > Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following
> > regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> DrG
Jan - 17 Dec 2006 16:43 GMT
otisbrown@pa.net schreef:

Otis, can you show me where Dr. Leukoma wrote what you are stating below?

I can't remember seeing him (Dr. Leukoma) publishing this.

Please enlighten me.

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

> So, Leukoma,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> Otis
Neil Brooks - 17 Dec 2006 16:55 GMT
> So, Leukoma,
>
> You are saying that:

[snip Otis's psychotic attempt to put words into other people's mouths]

....Reason #11,278 why people think you're an idiot, Otis.
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 17:34 GMT
> 1.  The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as
> per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm,

No. Dr. Wildsoet knows the "paradigm" only works during very early
development.

> 2.  A -3 diopter lens has NO EFFECT on the
> refractive STATE of a population of fundamental eyes.

Irrelevant. We don't put -3 lenses on fundamental eyes.

> 4.  This testing PROVES that the refractive STATE
> of the eye FOLLOWS the average value of accommodation.

Please show us some evidence this happens after age 6.

> Stirling got is RIGHT.  Wildsoet's blue-eye tint paradigm
> is confirmed.

For neonates.

> So let us say that preventing a negative refractive STATE
> of the natural eye is possible -- if the person himself
> has a competent grasp of this scientific paradigm.

And if he starts at age 2.

2-year-olds don't get nearsighted.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 20:30 GMT
And if he starts at age 2.

Mikr>  2-year-olds don't get nearsighted.

Otis>  Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post
of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity
was 20/50 -- so someone prescribed a -10 diotper
lens for the little tyke.

Otis

-MT

> > 1.  The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as
> > per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm,
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 18 Dec 2006 21:28 GMT
> Otis>  Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post
> of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity
> was 20/50 -- so someone prescribed a -10 diotper
> lens for the little tyke.

Jeeze, Otis, you must have no concept how rare that is, and how likely it is
to be accompanied by other abnormalities.

But then again, you believe EVERYBODY gets nearsighted.

I guess "concerned parent" should not have let her daughter read at such a
young age?

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 19 Dec 2006 02:41 GMT
Dear Mike,

Let us just say that you believe that the natural
eye is not a dynamic system, and
that the accommodation system is not
controlled by micro-blur at the surfact of the
retina (as both systems are sophisticated and
competent.)

For "convenience of practic" you believe that
the the natural eye is NOT DYAMIC with
respect to the AVERAGE VALUE OF ACCOMMODATION,
and that when you place the accommodation SYSTEM
at -6 diopters, that the natural eye will not
change its refactive STATE accordingly.

Ok, yeah, I understand your shop-practice
majority opinion.

You then tell the parents that, kids doing this
will have NO EFFECT on their reafractive STATE.

See below:

http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/SaveEye.html

Sorry, Mike, you want to believe somthing -- then go
ahead and believe it.

I certainly do agree that any PREVENTIVE step
will involved "intrusion" into a child's life.  And I would
agree that YOU are not resonsible to institute
that INTRUSION.

But I believe, that at least for pilots who truly
VALUE their distant vision would be interested
in plus-prevention at the threshold -- as
Dr. Colgate was interested as a scientist.

But what this issue truly must face is the
necessity of "empowerment" of the parent
and child to begin understanding these
issues BEFORE that first minus is applied.

This is the issue that Ron "woke up" to, and
instituted plus-preventive work with his
own child, and cleared his Snellen from
20/70 to 20/25.

The real issue is this ... who is going to
be in "control".

If the issue is prevention (after all medical issues are
elliminated) and the ONLY issue is a negative
refractive STATE of -1.25 diopters -- then
I think that the parents should be willing to
take a greater degree of responsibility to
institute this preventive work UNDER THE
DIRECTION OF A COMPETENT SCECOND-OPINION
OPTOMETRIST LIKE STEVE LEUNG.

Best,

Otis

> > Otis>  Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post
> > of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> -MT
Neil Brooks - 19 Dec 2006 02:53 GMT
> Dear Mike,
>
> Let us just say that you believe

[ssssnip]

Let us just say that you continually putting words into other people's
mouths is a worse form of intellectual dishonesty than your ignorance of
the scientific method, your bald-faced lies (Oakley-Young), or your
inability to form an argument without invoking several logical fallacies.

You really are a pathetic character, Otis.
Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 05:25 GMT
> Let us just say that you believe that the natural
> eye is not a dynamic system,

That is NOT what I believe. Which only proves that you can lie to us,
building strawmen that you can beat down with illogical diatribe.

> that the accommodation system is not
> controlled by micro-blur at the surfact of the
> retina (as both systems are sophisticated and
> competent.)

That is NOT what I believe. Nor has it anything to do with myopia.

> For "convenience of practic" you believe that
> the the natural eye is NOT DYAMIC with
> respect to the AVERAGE VALUE OF ACCOMMODATION,

Nonsense. Uncorrected hyperopes can habitually accommodate MUCH more than a
myopic kid with his glasses off. The myopic kid gets more nearsighted. The
uncorrected hyperopes don't. Why don't hyperopes get nearsighted?

> and that when you place the accommodation SYSTEM
> at -6 diopters, that the natural eye will not
> change its refactive STATE accordingly.

+6 hyperopes don't get nearsighted if they go uncorrected. THEY have to
accommodate TWELVE diopters to read at 17 cm. Why don't they get
nearsighted?

> You then tell the parents that, kids doing this
> will have NO EFFECT on their reafractive STATE.

Again you're lying. I tell parents that reading very close, and reading
prolonged periods without visual breaks WILL contribute somewhat to myopia.
GLASSES DON'T, if you bother to look up any studies that actually compare
kids wearing glasses with kids who don't. You've never done that.

> Sorry, Mike, you want to believe somthing -- then go
> ahead and believe it.

You don't get to decide what I believe.

-MT
 
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