Medical Forum / General / Vision / December 2006
A Scientist, Dr. Colgate, suggests a lens choice for plus-prevention.
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otisbrown@pa.net - 16 Dec 2006 21:13 GMT Dear Prevention-minded friends,
Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid entry into progressive myopia -- as previously discussed.
Otis
----- Original Message -----
From: Stirling Colgate
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006
Subject: Re: The Majority-opinion argument against plus-prevention
Otis,
I wrote this in order to offer some guidance about what strength lens might be used in myopia prevention.
It can be posted on the web site if you want to.
Stirling
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: Stirling A. Colgate
Subject: The Strength of Positive Lenses Needed to Alleviate Progressive Myopia
The purpose of a positive lens is to transform optically the near-point focal environment of reading a book or paper into an optical image with focal properties of infinity. Lens "strengths" are measured in diopters, which is the focal length of the lens measured in inverse meters. A lens with a focal length of half a meter is then one with a strength of 2 diopters.
Consider using a lens to image the sun onto a piece of paper and making it catch fire as we used to do as children. This teaches us that a lens of 1 diopter will focus the sun image onto the paper when the lens is held one meter from the paper. This is a relatively "weak" lens. A stronger one might focus the sun's image onto the paper when held 8 inches or 20 cm from the paper. This would be called a five diopter lens, (100 cm/20 cm) = 5 diopters. Conversely the same lens directed onto writing on the same piece of paper will convert the image of the writing to the focal properties of the distance to the sun, i.e., infinity.
The light rays simply follow a reverse path. For practical purposes for the human eye, infinity is any object at a distance of greater than 3 to 10 meters. Therefore if one looks at the paper through a one diopter lens with the paper held one meter from the lens the image will appear to the eyes of the viewer as if it were at the distance of the sun, infinity. If the paper is held closer to the viewer, the lens must be stronger in order to produce the same result.
The fundamental assumption for myopia prevention is that the eye adapts to its mean focal environment. Most of us want to see distant objects without glasses, so-called normal vision. However, most of us spend many hours a day reading. This is performed at a distance of about 15 inches, half a meter from the eye, a close focal environment. In order to artificially convert the artificial focal environment of reading back to a natural one of infinity, a positive lens of plus two diopters is needed.
A few shy young people will hold a book at 12 inches or even closer. Then to prevent reading- induced myopia, a plus three lens may be used. As a practical matter no one reads all the time so that a somewhat weaker lens, say 1.5 diopters for reading, may "hold" an eye with "normal" focal properties normal, i.e., a mean relaxed focus of infinity.
On the other hand most young people will start doing something about their progressive myopia only when they are significantly myopic and then a somewhat stronger lens, say 2.5 diopters (and a mild head ache) can be used for a month until partial focal restoration has occurred followed by a weaker one for holding the gain. Unfortunately older people progressively lose the physiological function of the growth in length of the eyeball in response to the focal environment. The length of the camera, the length of the eyeball, is the principle mechanism for the long-term (greater than six months) adaptive focal mechanism of the eye.
===============================
For additional review of Stirling Colgate's successful use of the plus for vision-clearing read Colgate to 20/20 on my site:
www.myopiafree.com
There is a strong scientific basis for preventing the development of a negative refractive STATE in the dynamic, natural eye.
Best,
Otis
Neil Brooks - 16 Dec 2006 21:34 GMT > Dear Prevention-minded friends, > > Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following And he asked ME to follow your posts with this:
PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE READING ANY POST BY OTIS BROWN
If you didn't know better, you'd think this text was written entirely ABOUT Otis ;-)
----
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html
Distinguishing Science and Pseudoscience Rory Coker, Ph.D.
The word "pseudo" means fake. The surest way to spot a fake is to know as much as possible about the real thing-in this case, about science itself. Knowing science does not mean simply knowing scientific facts (such as the distance from earth to sun, the age of the earth, the distinction between mammal and reptile, etc.) It means understanding the nature of science-the criteria of evidence, the design of meaningful experiments, the weighing of possibilities, the testing of hypotheses, the establishment of theories, the many aspects of scientific methods that make it possible to draw reliable conclusions about the physical universe.
Because the media bombard us with nonsense, it is useful to consider the earmarks of pseudoscience. The presence of even one of these should arouse great suspicion. On the other hand, material displaying none of these flaws might still be pseudoscience, because its adherents invent new ways to fool themselves every day. Most of the examples in this article are related to my field of physics, but similar beliefs and behavior are associated with iridology, medical astrology, meridian therapy, reflexology, subluxation-based chiropractic, therapeutic touch, and other health-related pseudosciences.
Pseudoscience displays an indifference to facts. Instead of bothering to consult reference works or investigating directly, its advocates simply spout bogus "facts" where needed. These fictions are often central to the pseudoscientist's argument and conclusions. Moreover, pseudoscientists rarely revise. The first edition of a pseudoscience book is almost always the last, even though the book remains in print for decades or even centuries. Even books with obvious mistakes, errors, and misprints on every page may be reprinted as is, over and over. Compare this to science textbooks that see a new edition every few years because of the rapid accumulation of new facts and insights.
Pseudoscience "research" is invariably sloppy. Pseudoscientists clip newspaper reports, collect hearsay, cite other pseudoscience books, and pore over ancient religious or mythological works. They rarely or never make an independent investigation to check their sources.
Pseudoscience begins with a hypothesis-usually one which is appealing emotionally, and spectacularly implausible-and then looks only for items which appear to support it. Conflicting evidence is ignored. Generally speaking, the aim of pseudoscience is to rationalize strongly held beliefs, rather than to investigate or to test alternative possibilities. Pseudoscience specializes in jumping to "congenial conclusions," grinding ideological axes, appealing to preconceived ideas and to widespread misunderstandings.
Pseudoscience is indifferent to criteria of valid evidence. The emphasis is not on meaningful, controlled, repeatable scientific experiments. Instead it is on unverifiable eyewitness testimony, stories and tall tales, hearsay, rumor, and dubious anecdotes. Genuine scientific literature is either ignored or misinterpreted.
Pseudoscience relies heavily on subjective validation. Joe Blow puts jello on his head and his headache goes away. To pseudoscience, this means jello cures headaches. To science this means nothing, since no experiment was done. Many things were going on when Joe Blow's headache went away-the moon was full, a bird flew overhead, the window was open, Joe had on his red shirt, etc.-and his headache would have gone away eventually in any case, no matter what. A controlled experiment would put many people suffering from headaches in identical circumstances, except for the presence or absence of the remedy it is desired to test, and compare the results which would then have some chance of being meaningful. Many people think there must be something to astrology because a newspaper horoscope describes them perfectly. But close examination would reveal that the description is general enough to cover virtually everyone. This phenomenon, called subjective validation, is one of the foundations of popular support for pseudoscience.
Pseudoscience depends on arbitrary conventions of human culture, rather than on unchanging regularities of nature. For instance, the interpretations of astrology depend on the names of things, which are accidental and vary from culture to culture. If the ancients had given the name Mars to the planet we call Jupiter, and vice versa, astronomy could care less but astrology would be totally different, because it depends solely on the name and has nothing to do with the physical properties of the planet itself.
Pseudoscience always achieves a reduction to absurdity if pursued far enough. Maybe dowsers can somehow sense the presence of water or minerals under a field, but almost all claim they can dowse equally well from a map! Maybe Uri Geller is "psychic," but are his powers really beamed to him on a radio link with a flying saucer from the planet Hoova, as he has claimed? Maybe plants are "psychic," but why does a bowl of mud respond in exactly the same way, in the same "experiment?"
Pseudoscience always avoids putting its claims to a meaningful test. Pseudoscientists never carry out careful, methodical experiments themselves-and they also generally ignore results of those carried out by scientists. Pseudoscientists also never follow up. If one pseudoscientist claims to have done an experiment (such as the "lost" biorhythm studies of Hermann Swoboda that are alleged basis of the modern pseudoscience of biorhythms), no other pseudoscientist ever tries to duplicate it or to check him, even when the original results are missing or questionable! Further, where a pseudoscientist claims to have done an experiment with a remarkable result, he himself never repeats it to check his results and procedures. This is in extreme contrast with science, where crucial experiments are repeated by scientists all over the world with ever-increasing precision.
Pseudoscience often contradicts itself, even in its own terms. Such logical contradictions are simply ignored or rationalized away. Thus, we should not be surprised when Chapter 1 of a book on dowsing says that dowsers use newly cut twigs, because only "live" wood can channel and focus the "earth-radiation" that makes dowsing possible, whereas Chapter 5 states that nearly all dowsers use metal or plastic rods.
Pseudoscience deliberately creates mystery where none exists, by omitting crucial information and important details. Anything can be made "mysterious" by omitting what is known about it or presenting completely imaginary details. The "Bermuda Triangle" books are classic examples of this tactic.
Pseudoscience does not progress. There are fads, and a pseudoscientist may switch from one fad to another (from ghosts to ESP research, from flying saucers to psychic studies, from ESP research to looking for Bigfoot). But within a given topic, no progress is made. Little or no new information or uncovered. New theories are seldom proposed, and old concepts are rarely modified or discarded in light of new "discoveries," since pseudoscience rarely makes new "discoveries." The older the idea, the more respect it receives. No natural phenomena or processes previously unknown to science have ever been discovered by pseudoscientists. Indeed, pseudoscientists almost invariably deal with phenomena well known to scientists, but little known to the general public-so that the public will swallow whatever the pseudoscientist wants to claim. Examples include firewalking and "Kirlian" photography.
Pseudoscience attempts to persuade with rhetoric, propaganda, and misrepresentation rather than valid evidence (which presumably does not exist). Pseudoscience books offer examples of almost every kind of fallacy of logic and reason known to scholars and have invented some new ones of their own. A favorite device is the non sequitur. Pseudoscientists also love the "Galileo Argument." This consists of the pseudoscientist comparing himself to Galileo, and saying that just as the pseudoscientist is believed to be wrong, so Galileo was thought wrong by his contemporaries therefore the pseudoscientist must be right too, just as Galileo was. Clearly the conclusion does not follow! Moreover, Galileo's ideas were tested, verified, and accepted promptly by his scientific colleagues. The rejection came from the established religion which favored the pseudoscience that Galileo's findings contradicted.
Pseudoscience argues from ignorance, an elementary fallacy. Many pseudoscientists base their claims on incompleteness of information about nature, rather than on what is known at present. But no claim can possibly be supported by lack of information. The fact that people don't recognize what they see in the sky means only that they don't recognize what they saw. This fact is not evidence that flying saucers are from outer space. The statement "Science cannot explain" is common in pseudoscience literature. In many cases, science has no interest in the supposed phenomena because there is no evidence it exists; in other cases, the scientific explanation is well known and well established, but the pseudoscientist doesn't know this or deliberately ignores it to create mystery.
Pseudoscience argues from alleged exceptions, errors, anomalies, strange events, and suspect claims-rather than from well-established regularities of nature. The experience of scientists over the past 400 years is that claims and reports that describe well-understood objects behaving in strange and incomprehensible ways tend to reduce upon investigation to deliberate frauds, honest mistakes, garbled accounts, misinterpretations, outright fabrications, and stupid blunders. It is not wise to accept such reports at face value, without checking them. Pseudoscientists always take such reports as literally true, without independent verification.
Pseudoscience appeals to false authority, to emotion, sentiment, or distrust of established fact. A high-school dropout is accepted as an expert on archaeology, though he has never made any study of it! A psychoanalyst is accepted as an expert on all of human history, not to mention physics, astronomy, and mythology, even though his claims are inconsistent with everything known in all four fields. A movie star swears it's true, so it must be. A physicist says a "psychic" couldn't possibly have fooled him with simple magic tricks, although the physicist knows nothing about magic and sleight of hand. Emotional appeals are common. ("If it makes you feel good, it must be true." "In your heart you know it's right.") Pseudoscientists are fond of imaginary conspiracies. ("There's plenty of evidence for flying saucers, but the government keeps it secret.") And they argue from irrelevancies: When confronted by inconvenient facts, they simply reply, "Scientists don't know everything!"
Pseudoscience makes extraordinary claims and advances fantastic theories that contradict what is known about nature. They not only provide no evidence that their claims are true. They also ignore all findings that contradict their conclusions. ("Flying saucers have to come from somewhere-so the earth is hollow, and they come from inside." "This electric spark I'm making with this electrical apparatus is actually not a spark at all, but rather a supernatural manifestation of psycho-spiritual energy." "Every human is surrounded by an impalpable aura of electromagnetic energy, the auric egg of the ancient Hindu seers, which mirrors the human's every mood and condition.")
Pseudoscientists invent their own vocabulary in which many terms lack precise or unambiguous definitions, and some have no definition at all. Listeners are often forced to interpret the statements according to their own preconceptions. What, for for example, is "biocosmic energy?" Or a "psychotronic amplification system?" Pseudoscientists often attempt to imitate the jargon of scientific and technical fields by spouting gibberish that sounds scientific and technical. Quack "healers" would be lost without the term "energy," but their use of the term has nothing whatsoever to do with the concept of energy used by physicists.
Pseudoscience appeals to the truth-criteria of scientific methodology while simultaneously denying their validity. Thus, a procedurally invalid experiment which seems to show that astrology works is advanced as "proof" that astrology is correct, while thousands of procedurally sound experiments that show it does not work are ignored. The fact that someone got away with simple magic tricks in one scientific lab is "proof" that he is a psychic superman, while the fact that he was caught cheating in several other labs is ignored.
Pseudoscience claims that the phenomena it studies are "jealous." The phenomena appear only under certain vaguely specified but vital conditions (such as when no doubters or skeptics are present; when no experts are present; when nobody is watching; when the "vibes" are right; or only once in human history.) Science holds that genuine phenomena must be capable of study by anyone with the proper equipment and that all procedurally valid studies must give consistent results. No genuine phenomenon is "jealous" in this way. There is no way to construct a TV set or a radio that will function only when no skeptics are present! A man who claims to be a concert-class violinist, but does not appear to have ever owned a violin and who refuses to play when anyone is around who might hear him, is most likely lying about his ability to play the violin.
Pseudoscientific "explanations" tend to be by scenario. That is, we are told a story, but nothing else; we have no description of any possible physical process. For instance, Immanuel Velikovsky (1895-1979) claimed that another planet passing near the earth caused the earth's spin axis to flip upside down. This is all he said. He gave no mechanisms. But the mechanism is all-important, because the laws of physics rule out the process as impossible. That is, the approach of another planet cannot cause a planet's spin axis to flip. If Velikovsky had discovered some way that a planet could flip another's spin axis, he would presumably have described the mechanism by which it can happen. The bald statement itself, without the underlying mechanism, conveys no information at all. Velikovsky said that Venus was once a comet, and this comet was spewed out of a volcano on Jupiter. Since planets do not resemble comets (which are rock/ice snowball-like debris with connection whatsoever to volcanoes) and since Jupiter is not known to have volcanoes anyway (or even a solid surface!), no actual physical process could underlie Velikovsky's assertions. He gave us words, related to one another within a sentence, but the relationships were alien to the universe we actually live in, and he gave no explanation for how these could exist. He provided stories, not genuine theories.
Pseudoscientists often appeal to the ancient human habit of magical thinking. Magic, sorcery, witchcraft-these are based on spurious similarity, false analogy, false cause-and-effect connections, etc. That is, inexplicable influences and connections between things are assumed from the beginning-not found by investigation. (If you step on a crack in the sidewalk without saying a magic word, your mother will crack a bone in her body; eating heart-shaped leaves is good for heart ailments; shining red light on the body increases blood production; rams are aggressive so someone born in the sign of the ram is aggressive; fish are "brain food" because the meat of the fish resembles brain tissue, etc.)
Pseudoscience relies heavily on anachronistic thinking. The older the idea, the more attractive it is to pseudoscience-it's the wisdom of the ancients!-especially if the idea is transparently wrong and has long been discarded by science. Many journalists have trouble in comprehending this point. A typical reporter writing about astrology may think a thorough job can be done by interviewing six astrologers and one astronomer. The astronomer says it's all bunk; the six astrologers say it's great stuff and really works and for $50 they'll be glad to cast anyone's horoscope. (No doubt!) To many reporters, and apparently to many editors and their readers, this would confirm astrology six to one!
This table contrasts some of the characteristics of science and pseudoscience
[TABLE SNIPPED. WOULD NOT DISPLAY CORRECTLY. SEE: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/pseudo.html ]
This table could be greatly expanded, because science and pseudoscience are precisely opposed ways of viewing nature. Science relies on-and insists on-self-questioning, testing and analytical thinking that make it hard to fool yourself or to avoid facing facts. Pseudoscience, on the other hand, preserves the ancient, natural, irrational, unobjective modes of thought that are hundreds of thousands of years older than science-thought processes that have given rise to superstitions and other fanciful and mistaken ideas about man and nature-from voodoo to racism; from the flat earth to the house-shaped universe with God in the attic, Satan in the cellar and man on the ground floor; from doing rain dances to torturing and brutalizing the mentally ill to drive out the demons that possess them. Pseudoscience encourages people to believe anything they want. It supplies specious "arguments" for fooling yourself into thinking that any and all beliefs are equally valid. Science begins by saying, let's forget about what we believe to be so, and try by investigation to find out what actually is so. These roads don't cross; they lead in completely opposite directions.
Some confusion on this point is caused by what we might call "crossover." "Science" is not an honorary badge you wear, it's an activity you do. Whenever you cease that activity, you cease being a scientist. A distressing amount of pseudoscience is generated by scientists who are well trained in one field but plunge into another field of which they are ignorant. A physicist who claims to have found a new principle of biology-or a biologist who claims to have found a new principle of physics-is almost invariably doing pseudoscience. And so are those who forge data, or suppresses data that clash with their preconceptions, or refuse to let others see their data for independent evaluation. Science is like a high peak of intellectual integrity, fairness, and rationality. The peak is slippery and smooth. It requires a tremendous effort to remain near it. Slacking of effort carries one away and into pseudoscience. Some pseudoscience is generated by individuals with a small amount of specialized scientific or technical training who are not professional scientists and do not comprehend the nature of the scientific enterprise-yet think of themselves as "scientists."
One might wonder if there are not examples of "crossovers" in the other direction; that is people who have been thought by scientists to be doing pseudoscience, who eventually were accepted as doing valid science, and whose ideas were ultimately accepted by scientists. From what we have just outlined, one would expect this to happen extremely rarely, if ever. In fact, neither I nor any informed colleague I have ever asked about this, knows of any single case in which this has happened during the hundreds of years the full scientific method has been known to and used by scientists. There are many cases in which a scientist has been thought wrong by colleagues but later-when new information comes in-is shown to be correct. Like anyone else, scientists can get hunches that something is possible without having enough evidence to convince their associates that they are correct. Such people do not become pseudoscientists, unless they continue to maintain that their ideas are correct when contradictory evidence piles up. Being wrong or mistaken is unavoidable; we are all human, and we all commit errors and blunders. True scientists, however, are alert to the possibility of blunder and are quick to correct mistakes. Pseudoscientists do not. In fact, a short definition of pseudoscience is "a method for excusing, defending, and preserving errors."
Pseudoscience often strikes educated, rational people as too nonsensical and preposterous to be dangerous and as a source of amusement rather than fear. Unfortunately, this is not a wise attitude. Pseudoscience can be extremely dangerous.
Penetrating political systems, it justifies atrocities in the name of racial purity
Penetrating the educational system, it can drive out science and sensibility;
In the field of health, it dooms thousands to unnecessary death or suffering
Penetrating religion, it generates fanaticism, intolerance, and holy war
Penetrating the communications media, it can make it difficult for voters to obtain factual information on important public issues.
 Signature Dr. Coker is Professor of Physics, University of Texas at Austin.
Salmon Egg - 16 Dec 2006 22:49 GMT On 12/16/06 1:13 PM, in article 1166303609.333789.81390@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "otisbrown@pa.net"
> Dear Prevention-minded friends, > > Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following > regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid > entry into progressive myopia -- as > previously discussed. <snip>
I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's background. I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to help prevent progressive myopia.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Neil Brooks - 16 Dec 2006 22:57 GMT > I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe > something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's background. > I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to > help prevent progressive myopia. But why -- if/since they're KNOWN to induce double vision in some (unsuspecting) people, and since they've failed to impact myopic progression in ANY but the near-point esophores, in testing -- shouldn't the recommendation be that anybody that wants to try them work with an optometrist to be sure that binocular function is evaluated and prism, if appropriate, is prescribed.
Again, even Don Rehm seems to get this. Can't figure out why this other guy doesn't, and why he shows such callous disregard for those in whom he has CAUSED double-vision....
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 01:16 GMT > I must comment that Dr. Colgate has used great complexity to describe > something relatively simple. I would like to know Dr. Colgate's > background. > I should point out that I do tend toward believing + lenses are likely to > help prevent progressive myopia. Dr. Stirling Colgate is a physicist affiliated with the Los Alamos nuclear project since 1942. He won a prestigious scientific award in 2006, but it's been a long time since he put together a human efficacy study.
As a teenager, Colgate "cured" himself of accommodative spasm and became convinced that plus lenses would also be effective against anatomical myopia.
One has to respect Dr. Colgate's achievements in nuclear physics. We respect Linus Pauling too, but nobody gobbles vitamin C anymore.
http://egadgets1.blogspot.com/2006/07/astroblaster.html
-MT
Dan Abel - 17 Dec 2006 01:31 GMT > One has to respect Dr. Colgate's achievements in nuclear physics. We respect > Linus Pauling too, but nobody gobbles vitamin C anymore. I'm sure many people do. It's a lot easier to slap on a plus lens or take vitamin C than to actually deal with the problem.
Salmon Egg - 17 Dec 2006 06:11 GMT On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner" <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote:
> As a teenager, Colgate "cured" himself of accommodative spasm and became > convinced that plus lenses would also be effective against anatomical > myopia. I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to interpret it. When you say "anatomical myopia" do you restrict the term to in situ anatomy? I can understand how using plus lenses might not improve existing myopia. The question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from becoming even more myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it happens to many bookworms?
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 17 Dec 2006 11:27 GMT > I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to interpret it. When > you say "anatomical myopia" do you restrict the term to in situ anatomy? I > can understand how using plus lenses might not improve existing myopia. The > question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from becoming even more > myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it > happens to many bookworms? Essentially, what you are asking is whether or not making the eye artificially myopic with a plus lens will prevent the eye from becoming myopic. This is like saying a positive eye will prevent itself from becoming more positive.
DrG
Salmon Egg - 17 Dec 2006 20:31 GMT On 12/17/06 3:27 AM, in article 1166354835.283961.240230@80g2000cwy.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote:
> Essentially, what you are asking is whether or not making the eye > artificially myopic with a plus lens will prevent the eye from becoming > myopic. This is like saying a positive eye will prevent itself from > becoming more positive. 1. If I were using chemical terminology my questions would be:
2. Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant stabilize the focal properties of that eye?
Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics?
My guess is that the answer to the first question is no.
My guess is that the answer to the second depends upon who gives the answer.
Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 18 Dec 2006 01:27 GMT > Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant > cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? Absolutely not. Glad that I could be of help.
The problem is that you are not approaching the problem with the right set of tools. You expect that everyone will just translate the research into your own terms, so that you don't have to break a sweat. Oh, you and Otis both.
DrG
Salmon Egg - 18 Dec 2006 05:39 GMT On 12/17/06 5:27 PM, in article 1166405244.597708.28390@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote:
>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant >> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > DrG Scientists sometimes try to explain their work in a way so that a person with a decent scientific education, say at the graduate level, can understand the essence. The Scientific American sets a decent standard for explaining science to non-specialists. The American Scientist, Science, and Nature may require somewhat greater specialized knowledge of jargon and other details. But their entire raisons d'être is for communicating to scientists. I do not see much of that kind of communication happening for optometry. I realize that such an undertaking (explanation in simple but non-trivial terms) cannot be forced upon one.
Although I cannot expect the typical scientist to match up to Richard Feynman, he really tried to explain quantum physics at a simple level without dumbing it down.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 18 Dec 2006 12:49 GMT > Scientists sometimes try to explain their work in a way so that a person > with a decent scientific education, say at the graduate level, can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > optometry. I realize that such an undertaking (explanation in simple but > non-trivial terms) cannot be forced upon one. Why don't you come visit me for an eye exam. I'll answer any question you ask and try to put it into simpler terms you can understand, such as astigmatism is like a football instead of a basketball. You might even be satisfied with that kind of an analogy.
> Although I cannot expect the typical scientist to match up to Richard > Feynman, he really tried to explain quantum physics at a simple level > without dumbing it down. Some writers have that talent. I don't make my living that way.
DrG
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 05:40 GMT On 12/18/06 4:49 AM, in article 1166446154.284097.236340@f1g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote:
> Why don't you come visit me for an eye exam. I'll answer any question > you ask and try to put it into simpler terms you can understand, such > as astigmatism is like a football instead of a basketball. You might > even be satisfied with that kind of an analogy. I KNOW what astigmatism is! If I depended upon the football analogy I would know less than I do. BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a lens designers' astigmatism.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
William Stacy, O.D. - 19 Dec 2006 06:42 GMT > BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a > lens designers' astigmatism. That's news to me. How is it different? My working definition is simply an optical element that has a cylindrical component.
w.stacy, o.d.
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 21:43 GMT On 12/18/06 10:42 PM, in article kRLhh.10723$hI.4208@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D." <wstacy@obase.net> wrote:
>> BTW, optometrists' astigmatism is not the same as a >> lens designers' astigmatism. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > w.stacy, o.d. Astigmatism shows up in perfectly spherical multi-element lenses such as used for cameras. It is an off-axis aberration in which a point does not image as a point on the film plane. In pure astigmatism, a point can be focused so as to produce lines, either radial or tangential with respect to the cone at that angle. It is the job of the lens designer to balance this defect by selecting usually SPHERICAL curvatures and indexes of the elements forming the lens.
In optometry, I believe, astigmatism is an on-axis visual defect. Short straight line segments may not image as straight line segments (depending upon orientation) because of cylindrical error in the eye's optical system
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
William Stacy, O.D. - 20 Dec 2006 05:54 GMT Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that stretches out the focal points into lines. Your "pure" astigmatism is the same thing as our plain old astigmatism, except as you say, ours is generally defined on axis. I'm not sure what you are getting at in the last sentince below. In "your kind" of off axis astigmatism and in "our" on axis astigmatism, distant points are focused to lines rather than points. And in both kinds, objects composed of short line segments will similarly be imaged as disjointed when their orientation is misaligned with that of the astigmatism. This occurs not just in eyes but also in the spherocylindrical ophthalmic lenses that we use to correct such eyes.
w.stacy, o.d.
> On 12/18/06 10:42 PM, in article > kRLhh.10723$hI.4208@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D." [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Bill > -- Fermez le Bush Dr. Leukoma - 20 Dec 2006 13:50 GMT Do you ever get the sense that some people just lead you around in circles?
> Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their > definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > Bill > > -- Fermez le Bush Salmon Egg - 20 Dec 2006 20:35 GMT On 12/19/06 9:54 PM, in article me4ih.4797$yC5.1286@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D." <wstacy@obase.net> wrote:
> Ok so apparently camera lens designers are very relaxed in their > definition to include any old kind of off axis distiortion that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with that of the astigmatism. This occurs not just in eyes but also in > the spherocylindrical ophthalmic lenses that we use to correct such eyes. Actually, the definition of astigmatism used by lens designers is very specific. It arises from off-axis rays seeing different radial and tangential curvatures. In pure astigmatism, points get focused into two separate lines at different distances from the lens. There also is an off-axis aberration called coma which is of little importance to optometry.
These aberrations are treated by considering the wavefront deviations from a true sphere after it passes through a lens. When the actual wavefront is approximated by a sum of quadratic expressions, each coefficient is assigned a name representing the amount of that aberration.
To truly represent a wavefront requires higher order functions than quadratic, and that leads to higher order aberrations. That is where Zernicke functions get into the act.
Rather than belabor the point, I will just mention that astigmatism is defined by two coefficients that tell how much xy and x^2-y^2 must be added to the spherical component x^2+y^2 to best describe the distorted wavefront. These two coeffients define the amount and orientation of the astigmatism.
Bill
William Stacy - 20 Dec 2006 23:42 GMT Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens designers" is only defined in terms of wave front polynomials? I seriously doubt that to be the case, since wave front is fairly new while precision optics is fairly old technology. They must have a concise definition somewhere. Perhaps part of the problem is that in ophthalmic optics, astigmatism is not considered to be an aberration, except the type known as "irregular astigmatism". Regular astigmatism is simply a lens or optical system where the power or focal length varies along the various meridians of a plane intersecting its optical axis. We also sometimes deal with astigmatism induced by lens tilt and off axis viewing, as in highly "wrapped" sunglasses, but we correct for this using ordinary sphero-cylindrical notation. Irregular astigmatism and really all high order aberrations are not optically correctible without rigid contact lenses, so we generally ignore them all.
w.stacy, o.d.
>Actually, the definition of astigmatism used by lens designers is very >specific. It arises from off-axis rays seeing different radial and [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > William Stacy - 20 Dec 2006 23:54 GMT I guess I should have added "except when corrected with wave front guided laser surgery".
> . Irregular astigmatism and really all high order aberrations are > not optically correctible without rigid contact lenses, so we > generally ignore them all. Salmon Egg - 21 Dec 2006 01:38 GMT On 12/20/06 3:54 PM, in article V2kih.806$sR.72@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net,
> I guess I should have added "except when corrected with wave front > guided laser surgery". > >> . Irregular astigmatism and really all high order aberrations are >> not optically correctible without rigid contact lenses, so we >> generally ignore them all. Again, there seems to be a divergence of nomenclature. What you guys call wavefront surgery, I would call surgical figuring. An example of figuring is when a spherical mirror is made parabolic for use as a primary mirror in an astronomical telescope. The primary mirror of the Hubble telescope, which was not supposed to be a parabola, was not figured correctly.
Optically, I would think that the biggest problem would be to measure the error. I am not familiar with the techniques used, but I would guess that you use an interferometer of some kind. It would be no big trick to measure how much the surface of the cornea deviates from its ideal shape. It is another story when it comes to what is in the imaging path. I am curious enough to look that up, but have not done so yet.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Scott Seidman - 21 Dec 2006 13:37 GMT Salmon Egg <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:C1AF259E.52B70% salmonegg@sbcglobal.net:
> wavefront surgery, It's named because it is guided by wavefront measurement--that is, the tool, and not the outcome.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Salmon Egg - 21 Dec 2006 01:28 GMT On 12/20/06 3:42 PM, in article 1Ujih.800$sR.634@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net,
> Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens designers" is > only defined in terms of wave front polynomials? I seriously doubt that to be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > high order aberrations are not optically correctible without rigid contact > lenses, so we generally ignore them all. This discussion is making my point that astigmatism as defined by lens designers is not the astigmatism defined by optometrists.
I will admit not having historical knowledge of how aberrations were handled and defined. Although I am not a lens designer I have had to learn something about aberration. My bible is Born and Wolf¹s Principles of Optics. Chapter V covers the geometrical theory of aberrations. The rays exiting the optical system define a wavefront in terms of a surface normal to the rays. It is this surface that deviates from a sphere that characterizes perfect imaging. This chapter covers the primary Seidel aberrations; spherical, coma, astigmatism, curvature of field, and distortion.
Chapter IX covers the diffraction theory of aberrations.
-- Fermez le Bush
Scott Seidman - 21 Dec 2006 13:36 GMT William Stacy <wstacy@obase.net> wrote in news:1Ujih.800$sR.634 @newssvr29.news.prodigy.net:
> Are you saying that the "definition of astigmatism used by lens > designers" is only defined in terms of wave front polynomials? I think more like "The definition of astigmatism used by opthalmic lens designers is that which can be described by a second order Zernicke polynomial. More complex abberations require higher order polynomials". Sometimes you might hear terms like "trefoil" or "quadrafoil" to describe some higher order abberations without invoking the Zernicke gods.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 14:10 GMT > I think more like "The definition of astigmatism used by opthalmic lens > designers is that which can be described by a second order Zernicke > polynomial. More complex abberations require higher order polynomials". > Sometimes you might hear terms like "trefoil" or "quadrafoil" to describe > some higher order abberations without invoking the Zernicke gods. ...not to mention secondary astigmatism.
DrG
Mike Tyner - 18 Dec 2006 21:30 GMT > Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant > cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.
-MT
Salmon Egg - 19 Dec 2006 05:43 GMT On 12/18/06 1:30 PM, in article TPidnXRvQKX6lRrYnZ2dnUVZ_qSrnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner" <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant >> cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? > > You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together. > > -MT Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Dr. Leukoma - 19 Dec 2006 12:41 GMT > Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma. I think it depends on how one translates your term "anatomical focal kinetics," which I too to mean the mechanism by which the posterior chamber elongates. I think Mike interpreted it differently, which underscores the need for the terminology you don't seem to want to use.
DrG
Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 13:23 GMT >>> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given >>> instant [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Great. But that also sounds at ods with Dr. Leukoma. I'm not concerned. :)
You did say "given instant" so I assumed you weren't talking about the development of myopia.
Bottom line, you can't accommodate without converging, can't converge without accommodating. Even in presbyopia, the innervation remains the same.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 19 Dec 2006 05:53 GMT Yet again, Mike only PARTIALLY understands the behavior of the accommodation SYSTEM and the convergence system.
For SHORT TERM, in the matter of 2 to 3 seconds, the accommodation system does receive an engineering "kick" from the convergence system.
But longer term, each accommodation system is controlled by micro-blur sensed at the surface of the retina.
But since Mike does not understand this type of engineered system, let us call his simplistic notion the "Majority opinion".
Best,
Otis
> Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant > cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together.
-MT
> > Does adding a positive lens to whatever a myopic eye is at a given instant > > cause a change in the kinetics of that eye's anatomical focal kinetics? > > You betcha. Accommodation and convergence are hard-wired together. > > -MT Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 13:41 GMT > Yet again, Mike only PARTIALLY understands the > behavior of the accommodation SYSTEM and > the convergence system. Like you know what to do with a cover paddle.
> For SHORT TERM, in the matter of 2 to 3 seconds, the > accommodation system does receive an engineering "kick" > from the convergence system. Again, you rely on your own imagination as your authority.
> But longer term, each accommodation system is > controlled by micro-blur sensed at the surface > of the retina. So six diopters base out OU wouldn't change anything.
> But since Mike does not understand this type of > engineered system, let us call his simplistic > notion the "Majority opinion". Non-sequitur. If you care.
-MT
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 12:21 GMT > I read this sentence very carefully. I am not sure how to > interpret it. When you say "anatomical myopia" do you > restrict the term to in situ anatomy? Not sure what you're asking; "anatomical" means physical myopia due to axial length. Otis does not distinguish axial myopia from "functional" myopia, which is accommodative spasm. In the young, the two types often coexist.
> I can understand how using plus lenses might not improve > existing myopia. But that's exactly what Stirling Colgate did, according to Otis, something like 6 diopters of it.
When a 14-year-old "recovers" from 6 or more diopters of myopia, the most likely explanation (other than diabetes) is that the myopia was due to excess accommodation, not axial length. Functional myopia would respond to "relaxation" techniques. Anatomical myopia would not.
> The question is: Can positive lenses prevent eye anatomy from > becoming even more myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball > from lengthening the way it happens to many bookworms? There are several studies that test this question directly or indirectly, and almost all of them indicate that plus lenses, or reading without glasses, or bifocals make no real difference in the progress of myopia. If it worked, they'd all show pronounced differences between experimental and control groups. They don't, in fact sometimes it goes the other way - full correction and full-time wear seem more preventative than "undercorrection" (a form of "plus".)
"..myopic progression is connected with much use of the eyes in reading and close work and with short reading distance but .. progression cannot be reduced by diminishing accommodation with bifocals or by reading without spectacles."
-MT
Dr Judy - 19 Dec 2006 14:12 GMT > On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article > Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > myopic? That is, can it prevent the eyeball from lengthening the way it > happens to many bookworms? 1) Anatomical myopia is myopia due to mismatch between the total refractive power of the refractive elements of a given eye and the length of that eye. It is determined with the accommodative system at rest (usually with cycloplegia). Accomodativ spasm is myopia due to over accommodation.
2) Plus lenses at near have been clinically trialed in humans many times and plus lenses worn full time have been trialed a few times as prevention for myopia. In some trials, the plus lenses slowed myopia progression slightly, usually only for the first year of wear and to an amount under 1D. Human myopic eyes using plus continued to have myopic progression even in the trials where myopia was slowed. In one study, relative plus resulted in increased, not decreased, myopia progression.
So the answer is no, plus lenses cannot prevent myopia.
Dr Judy
otisbrown@pa.net - 20 Dec 2006 14:34 GMT Subject: The SECOND OPINION on plus-prevention.
The study conducted by Oakley-Young involved the use of a "high placed" plus. The plus was placed so the child could not AVOID LOOKING THROUGH THE PLUS. These other "plus" studies used a lower, small-segment plus, so the child WITH NO INSTRUCTIONS ON USE, could completely AVOID LOOKING THROUGH THE PLUS. Even so, it is difficult to run a plus-prevention study -- if the person himself does not know, nor understand the reasons for the plus.
But under the above circumstance, the Oakley-Young study, using a HIGH PLUS, resulted in the single-minus going DOWN at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year, while the rate of the "plus" group was close-to 0 diopters per year,
And this was over a period of four years.
The implications of this result, is that a "pure-plus" study, or effort COULD BE EFFECTIVE, if:
1. The person were instructed in the PROPER USE OF A STRONGER PLUS.
2. Had the intellect and motivation to use the plus PROPERLY in a four-year college.
3. Undertood college statistics.
4. Had the gumption to be a participant in this type of study on an intellectual level.
5. Was a pilot, or knew the value of retaining a refractove state of zero or better during a four year college.
6. Understood plus-prevention as the second-opinion.
Just one man's opinion.
Otis
) Plus lenses at near have been clinically trialed in humans many times and plus lenses worn full time have been trialed a few times as prevention for myopia. In some trials, the plus lenses slowed myopia progression slightly, usually only for the first year of wear and to an
amount under 1D. Human myopic eyes using plus continued to have myopic
progression even in the trials where myopia was slowed. In one study, relative plus resulted in increased, not decreased, myopia progression.
So the answer is no, plus lenses cannot prevent myopia.
Dr Judy
> > On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article > > Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner" [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Dr Judy Dr. Leukoma - 20 Dec 2006 15:56 GMT We've listened to your drivel long enough, Otis. This study is ancient by any standards, but it is the only fig leaf you have to stand behind.
DrG
> Subject: The SECOND OPINION on plus-prevention. > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > > > Dr Judy Neil Brooks - 20 Dec 2006 16:01 GMT These were near-point esophores, you dishonest old coot.
http://www.myopia.org/bifocals.htm
THIS is why YOU induce DOUBLE VISION in the unwary and trusting.
Sick, sick, pathetic, old man......
otisbrown@pa.net - 20 Dec 2006 20:10 GMT Dear Bill,
1. Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length CHANGE) will be produced when you apply a -3 diopter lens to a population of fundamental, or natural eyes.
This is neatly shown by Wildsoet's dynamic-eye paradigm, as blue-tinted eyes.
Thus if you forced a soldier to wear a -3 diopter lens for six months, (from zero diopters), his refactive STATE would change by -2 diopters.
If you took that in for an eye-exam, Judy would have the soldier read the chart. 20/140 is as good as the soldier could do. And yes, by placing a -2 diopter lens on his eyes, he could again read the 20/20 line.
Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as the majority-opinion.
The second-opinion would say that the natural eye is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process.
But opinions differ on the proven dynamic behavior of all natural eyes.
See:
http://vision.berkeley.edu/wildsoet/myopiaprimer.html
For the neat animation graphics of the natural eye's behavior.
Best,
Otis
> 1) Anatomical myopia is myopia due to mismatch between the total > refractive power of the refractive elements of a given eye and the > length of that eye. It is determined with the accommodative system at > rest (usually with cycloplegia). Accomodativ spasm is myopia due to > over accommodation.
> > On 12/16/06 5:16 PM, in article > > Ht-dnRVaZr9nBxnYnZ2dnUVZ_tijnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner" [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Dr Judy Mike Tyner - 21 Dec 2006 00:20 GMT > 1. Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length > CHANGE) > will be produced when you apply a -3 diopter lens to a population of > fundamental, or natural eyes. According to Otis.
Schools of medicine and optometry teach that it doesn't. So you're lying.
> This is neatly shown by Wildsoet's dynamic-eye paradigm, as > blue-tinted eyes. Wildsoet's "paradigm" does not apply after age 3 or so. So you're lying.
> Thus if you forced a soldier to wear a -3 diopter lens for six months, > (from zero diopters), his refactive STATE would change by > -2 diopters. It clearly doesn't happen, so you're lying.
> Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that > this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as > the majority-opinion. You're lying about the logic part. There is no logic to arguing something that doesn't happen.
> The second-opinion would say that the natural eye > is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter > lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process. The second-opinion is based upon your own imagination.
> But opinions differ on the proven dynamic behavior > of all natural eyes. Your opinion doesn't change what happens. -3 myopes don't usually become -5 myopes in 6 months.
-MT
Dan Abel - 21 Dec 2006 01:55 GMT > > 1. Anatomical myopia (refractive CHANGE, or necessary eye-length > > CHANGE) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Schools of medicine and optometry teach that it doesn't. So you're lying. Do schools teach about fundamental or natural eyes?
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 02:12 GMT > Do schools teach about fundamental or natural eyes? I guess this reflects a fundamental flaw in the curriculum.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 21 Dec 2006 02:10 GMT > > Thus, by this logic, Judy would declare that > > this soldier had "anatomical myopia" -- as > > the majority-opinion. > > The second-opinion would say that the natural eye > > is dynamic and "follows" that applied -3 diopter > > lens as a NATURAL, OR "CONTROL" process. I feel that I am peering Through The Looking Glass and reading Jabberwocky.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 14:58 GMT Dear Bill,
I posted Dr. Colgate's remarks as a counter to those people who insist that "...a scientists BELIEVE".
Stirling is a physicist like you.
If you will contact me from my site:
www.myopiafree.com
by email I will send you his complete C.V.
It is indeed impressive, and he is a member of the National Academy of Science -- as I recall.
Best,
Otis
> On 12/16/06 1:13 PM, in article > 1166303609.333789.81390@j72g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, "otisbrown@pa.net" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Bill > -- Fermez le Bush A Lieberma - 17 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT > -- as > I recall. Dear Bill,
When you get this made up list of credentials from a person who has no credibility, please post to the group.
Thanks!
Allen
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 00:51 GMT > The fundamental assumption for myopia prevention is that the > eye adapts to its mean focal environment. as·sume (-sm) tr.v. as·sumed, as·sum·ing, as·sumes 1. To take upon oneself: assume responsibility; assume another's debts. 2. To undertake the duties of (an office): assumed the presidency. 3. To take on; adopt: "The god assumes a human form" John Ruskin. 4. To put on; don: The queen assumed a velvet robe. 5. To affect the appearance or possession of; feign. 6. To take for granted; suppose: assumed that prices would rise. 7. To take over without justification; seize: assume control. 8. To take up or receive into heaven.
> A few shy young people will hold a book at 12 inches or even > closer. Then to prevent reading- induced myopia, a plus three > lens may be used. They get nearsighted anyway. We tell 'em not to read so close and focus away occasionally. That works better than lenses. Neither one makes much difference compared to atropine.
> The length of the > camera, the length of the eyeball, is the principle mechanism for > the long-term (greater than six months) adaptive focal mechanism > of the eye. So you've found a treatment that stops axial growth in myopia? We can't get it to work in controlled studies, except occasionally as a fluke.
> For additional review of Stirling Colgate's successful > use of the plus for vision-clearing read > Colgate to 20/20 on my site: "Clearing" means cure, if you care what you're saying.
See, you've made a public declaration that this Dr. Colgate's has a "successful" therapy which will restore vision loss due to myopia. Please tell us more.
You and your unsuspecting public are the only ones who believe it.
> There is a strong scientific basis for > preventing the development of a negative > refractive STATE in the dynamic, natural > eye. There is a strong scientific basis for concluding neither you nor Dr. Colgate have access to Medline.
-MT
Dr. Leukoma - 17 Dec 2006 05:02 GMT > Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following > regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid > entry into progressive myopia -- as > previously discussed. Ahem. Ahem. There is simply no credible visual scientist today who thinks that plus lenses can stop the progression of myopia. None, zip, zero, nada. Therefore, you will not find any serious papers being published using plus lenses to treat myopia anymore.
So, Otis, it looks like you have this particular niche all to yourself. I know you enjoy it, and you can print all the inane drivel that you want. Heck, some people may actually believe you, and if they have lots of time to waste, well who is going to stop them?
But, the one thing I won't do is to propagate a bad idea, an old idea, a disproven idea, discarded onto the junk heap of pseudo-science.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 15:09 GMT So, Leukoma,
You are saying that:
1. The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm, and that:
2. A -3 diopter lens has NO EFFECT on the refractive STATE of a population of fundamental eyes.
3. With measurements made OBJECTIVELY with a retinoscope/cycloplegic.
4. This testing PROVES that the refractive STATE of the eye FOLLOWS the average value of accommodation.
Stirling got is RIGHT. Wildsoet's blue-eye tint paradigm is confirmed.
So let us say that preventing a negative refractive STATE of the natural eye is possible -- if the person himself has a competent grasp of this scientific paradigm.
See, "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions", by Thomas Kuhn, to understand the use of mathematical models to represent experimental reality.
And let us just describe your box-camera PARADIGM, the majority-opinion and let is go at that.
Best,
Otis
> > Dr. Colgate asked me to post the following > > regarding plus-prevention -- on how to avoid [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > DrG Jan - 17 Dec 2006 16:43 GMT otisbrown@pa.net schreef:
Otis, can you show me where Dr. Leukoma wrote what you are stating below?
I can't remember seeing him (Dr. Leukoma) publishing this.
Please enlighten me.
Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
> So, Leukoma, > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Otis Neil Brooks - 17 Dec 2006 16:55 GMT > So, Leukoma, > > You are saying that: [snip Otis's psychotic attempt to put words into other people's mouths]
....Reason #11,278 why people think you're an idiot, Otis.
Mike Tyner - 17 Dec 2006 17:34 GMT > 1. The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as > per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm, No. Dr. Wildsoet knows the "paradigm" only works during very early development.
> 2. A -3 diopter lens has NO EFFECT on the > refractive STATE of a population of fundamental eyes. Irrelevant. We don't put -3 lenses on fundamental eyes.
> 4. This testing PROVES that the refractive STATE > of the eye FOLLOWS the average value of accommodation. Please show us some evidence this happens after age 6.
> Stirling got is RIGHT. Wildsoet's blue-eye tint paradigm > is confirmed. For neonates.
> So let us say that preventing a negative refractive STATE > of the natural eye is possible -- if the person himself > has a competent grasp of this scientific paradigm. And if he starts at age 2.
2-year-olds don't get nearsighted.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Dec 2006 20:30 GMT And if he starts at age 2.
Mikr> 2-year-olds don't get nearsighted.
Otis> Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity was 20/50 -- so someone prescribed a -10 diotper lens for the little tyke.
Otis
-MT
> > 1. The natural eye is NOT DYANAMIC, as > > per the Wildsoet Dynamic-eye paradigm, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -MT Mike Tyner - 18 Dec 2006 21:28 GMT > Otis> Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post > of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity > was 20/50 -- so someone prescribed a -10 diotper > lens for the little tyke. Jeeze, Otis, you must have no concept how rare that is, and how likely it is to be accompanied by other abnormalities.
But then again, you believe EVERYBODY gets nearsighted.
I guess "concerned parent" should not have let her daughter read at such a young age?
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 19 Dec 2006 02:41 GMT Dear Mike,
Let us just say that you believe that the natural eye is not a dynamic system, and that the accommodation system is not controlled by micro-blur at the surfact of the retina (as both systems are sophisticated and competent.)
For "convenience of practic" you believe that the the natural eye is NOT DYAMIC with respect to the AVERAGE VALUE OF ACCOMMODATION, and that when you place the accommodation SYSTEM at -6 diopters, that the natural eye will not change its refactive STATE accordingly.
Ok, yeah, I understand your shop-practice majority opinion.
You then tell the parents that, kids doing this will have NO EFFECT on their reafractive STATE.
See below:
http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/SaveEye.html
Sorry, Mike, you want to believe somthing -- then go ahead and believe it.
I certainly do agree that any PREVENTIVE step will involved "intrusion" into a child's life. And I would agree that YOU are not resonsible to institute that INTRUSION.
But I believe, that at least for pilots who truly VALUE their distant vision would be interested in plus-prevention at the threshold -- as Dr. Colgate was interested as a scientist.
But what this issue truly must face is the necessity of "empowerment" of the parent and child to begin understanding these issues BEFORE that first minus is applied.
This is the issue that Ron "woke up" to, and instituted plus-preventive work with his own child, and cleared his Snellen from 20/70 to 20/25.
The real issue is this ... who is going to be in "control".
If the issue is prevention (after all medical issues are elliminated) and the ONLY issue is a negative refractive STATE of -1.25 diopters -- then I think that the parents should be willing to take a greater degree of responsibility to institute this preventive work UNDER THE DIRECTION OF A COMPETENT SCECOND-OPINION OPTOMETRIST LIKE STEVE LEUNG.
Best,
Otis
> > Otis> Jeeze, Mike, you must have missed the post > > of a "concerned" mother whose child's visual acuity [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > -MT Neil Brooks - 19 Dec 2006 02:53 GMT > Dear Mike, > > Let us just say that you believe [ssssnip]
Let us just say that you continually putting words into other people's mouths is a worse form of intellectual dishonesty than your ignorance of the scientific method, your bald-faced lies (Oakley-Young), or your inability to form an argument without invoking several logical fallacies.
You really are a pathetic character, Otis.
Mike Tyner - 19 Dec 2006 05:25 GMT > Let us just say that you believe that the natural > eye is not a dynamic system, That is NOT what I believe. Which only proves that you can lie to us, building strawmen that you can beat down with illogical diatribe.
> that the accommodation system is not > controlled by micro-blur at the surfact of the > retina (as both systems are sophisticated and > competent.) That is NOT what I believe. Nor has it anything to do with myopia.
> For "convenience of practic" you believe that > the the natural eye is NOT DYAMIC with > respect to the AVERAGE VALUE OF ACCOMMODATION, Nonsense. Uncorrected hyperopes can habitually accommodate MUCH more than a myopic kid with his glasses off. The myopic kid gets more nearsighted. The uncorrected hyperopes don't. Why don't hyperopes get nearsighted?
> and that when you place the accommodation SYSTEM > at -6 diopters, that the natural eye will not > change its refactive STATE accordingly. +6 hyperopes don't get nearsighted if they go uncorrected. THEY have to accommodate TWELVE diopters to read at 17 cm. Why don't they get nearsighted?
> You then tell the parents that, kids doing this > will have NO EFFECT on their reafractive STATE. Again you're lying. I tell parents that reading very close, and reading prolonged periods without visual breaks WILL contribute somewhat to myopia. GLASSES DON'T, if you bother to look up any studies that actually compare kids wearing glasses with kids who don't. You've never done that.
> Sorry, Mike, you want to believe somthing -- then go > ahead and believe it. You don't get to decide what I believe.
-MT
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