Medical Forum / General / Vision / December 2006
Long Sighted to Short Sighted
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Simon Dean - 11 Dec 2006 13:26 GMT Is Otis's prediction coming true?
Is close work really affecting my eyes?
Optician said Im slightly short sighted now.
In the course of one and a half years, my vision has changed slightly from being hyperopic to myopic.
I obviously realise that it could just be very slightly oversensitive equipment/me/whatever, and it's nothing to worry about. At the same time, hoping that it's not the start of a downward trend.
Obviously thyroid thoughts come into it too... Wonder if Im now overmedicated?
April 2002: Right Distance +0.50 Sph, -0.25 Cyl, 130 Axis Left Distance +0.50 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 30 Axis
May 2004: Right Distance ~ Sph , -0.25 Cyl 130 Axis Left Distance ~ Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 25 Axis
May 2005: Right Distance +0.50 Sph, -0.75 Cyl, 135 Axis Left Distance +0.75 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 35 Axis
December 2005: Right Distance ~ Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 135 Axis Left Distance ~ Sph, -0.25 Cyl, 30 Axis
December 2006: Right Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 140 Axis Left Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 35 Axis
John H. - 11 Dec 2006 13:55 GMT Close work may have very significant affects on vision. I only found the below recently and it relates directly to me because I do mountains of reading, or was until about 4 years ago when my vision went bye bye. Also, I have ptosis in my good eye, the left one, which is significant in light of below.
Have you had a thyroid function tested?
John.
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/061027_eyelid_vision.html --> Eyelids Alter Shape of the Eye
The pressure of the eyelid on the eyeball could cause one of the most common vision problems, new research shows. The work builds on previous research showing that heavy reading (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060718_illiterate_boys.html) can change the shape of the eye (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/051128_eye_works.html) during the day, temporarily degrading eyesight. Imperfections in the shape of the cornea (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060719_clear_eyes.html), a transparent shield that protects and covers the front of the eyeball, often causes corneal astigmatism. The condition, which affects somewhere between 33 and 60 percent of all people, can lead to distorted vision. The study of 100 normal-sighted young subjects showed that the shape of the eyelid (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050725_blink.html) opening at different angles of gaze affected the shape of the cornea, says Scott Read of Queensland University of Technology, in Brisbane, Australia. "It appears eyelids do play a part in determining the shape of the cornea," Read said. "One explanation is that pressure from the eyelids is involved in the cause of corneal astigmatism." The results, announced last week, were published in the journal Optometry and Vision Science. It is still unproven that eyelid pressure definitely causes corneal astigmatism, Read told LiveScience. "An important next step is for us to develop an accurate and precise means of measuring the amount of pressure that the eyelids do exert on the cornea," he said. Then scientists could link those measurements with the development of astigmatism. Astigmatism and corneal shape change a lot in young children and older people, so Read also plans to study the peepers and lids of those populations to learn more. Astigmatism takes a few different forms. One way to think of one form of it is to envision light (http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html) coming into the eye (http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/051118_animal_eyes.html) along two perpendicular axes. With astigmatism, the light along one axis is more in focus than the light along the other. In other cases, the light fails to line up with the light-receiving axes in the eye. Heavy readers, take note: Earlier research by Read and his colleagues shows that downcast eyelids degrade your vision (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050811_attention_problem.html), pressing against the cornea and worsening eyesight as the day wears on. People who read or do close work tend to maintain a downward gaze for a long time, such that the upper eyelid exerts pressure on the cornea and actually changes the shape of the eyes throughout the day. The study found that the shape of the cornea changed significantly throughout the day, with the eyelid pressure forming horizontal bands of distortion on the cornea where the eyelid was sitting. The cornea bounced back by morning. "As these changes appear to be related to forces from the eyelids themselves and were more marked in people who spent a lot of time reading in downward gaze, it is certainly one reason why people's vision may be slightly worse at the end of the day or after doing a lot of close work," Read said. "It suggests," he said, "that people should take a short break from reading or close work (http://www.livescience.com/technology/051223_future_office.html) at least every hour."
> Is Otis's prediction coming true? > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Right Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 140 Axis > Left Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 35 Axis John H. - 11 Dec 2006 13:55 GMT Close work may have very significant affects on vision. I only found the below recently and it relates directly to me because I do mountains of reading, or was until about 4 years ago when my vision went bye bye. Also, I have ptosis in my good eye, the left one, which is significant in light of below.
Have you had a thyroid function tested?
John.
http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/061027_eyelid_vision.html --> Eyelids Alter Shape of the Eye
The pressure of the eyelid on the eyeball could cause one of the most common vision problems, new research shows. The work builds on previous research showing that heavy reading (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060718_illiterate_boys.html) can change the shape of the eye (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/051128_eye_works.html) during the day, temporarily degrading eyesight. Imperfections in the shape of the cornea (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/060719_clear_eyes.html), a transparent shield that protects and covers the front of the eyeball, often causes corneal astigmatism. The condition, which affects somewhere between 33 and 60 percent of all people, can lead to distorted vision. The study of 100 normal-sighted young subjects showed that the shape of the eyelid (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050725_blink.html) opening at different angles of gaze affected the shape of the cornea, says Scott Read of Queensland University of Technology, in Brisbane, Australia. "It appears eyelids do play a part in determining the shape of the cornea," Read said. "One explanation is that pressure from the eyelids is involved in the cause of corneal astigmatism." The results, announced last week, were published in the journal Optometry and Vision Science. It is still unproven that eyelid pressure definitely causes corneal astigmatism, Read told LiveScience. "An important next step is for us to develop an accurate and precise means of measuring the amount of pressure that the eyelids do exert on the cornea," he said. Then scientists could link those measurements with the development of astigmatism. Astigmatism and corneal shape change a lot in young children and older people, so Read also plans to study the peepers and lids of those populations to learn more. Astigmatism takes a few different forms. One way to think of one form of it is to envision light (http://www.livescience.com/technology/050819_fastlight.html) coming into the eye (http://www.livescience.com/animalworld/051118_animal_eyes.html) along two perpendicular axes. With astigmatism, the light along one axis is more in focus than the light along the other. In other cases, the light fails to line up with the light-receiving axes in the eye. Heavy readers, take note: Earlier research by Read and his colleagues shows that downcast eyelids degrade your vision (http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050811_attention_problem.html), pressing against the cornea and worsening eyesight as the day wears on. People who read or do close work tend to maintain a downward gaze for a long time, such that the upper eyelid exerts pressure on the cornea and actually changes the shape of the eyes throughout the day. The study found that the shape of the cornea changed significantly throughout the day, with the eyelid pressure forming horizontal bands of distortion on the cornea where the eyelid was sitting. The cornea bounced back by morning. "As these changes appear to be related to forces from the eyelids themselves and were more marked in people who spent a lot of time reading in downward gaze, it is certainly one reason why people's vision may be slightly worse at the end of the day or after doing a lot of close work," Read said. "It suggests," he said, "that people should take a short break from reading or close work (http://www.livescience.com/technology/051223_future_office.html) at least every hour."
> Is Otis's prediction coming true? > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Right Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 140 Axis > Left Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 35 Axis otisbrown@pa.net - 11 Dec 2006 14:11 GMT Dear Simon,
The second-opinion on the natural eye's performance.
You might enjoy this commentary:
http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/SaveEye.html
As is presented, a positive refractive STATE is considered "long-sighted". A negative refractive STATE is "short sighted".
Tragically, no one has ever pointed out to this kid that the natural eye will change its refractive STATE if he continues to write and read at 6 inches (-6 diopters) -- as the second-opinion.
Best,
Otis
++++++++
> Is Otis's prediction coming true? > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Right Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 140 Axis > Left Distance -0.25 Sph, -0.50 Cyl, 35 Axis Mike Tyner - 11 Dec 2006 16:08 GMT > In the course of one and a half years, my vision has changed slightly from > being hyperopic to myopic. The change from May to Dec 2005 was more significant than crossing some arbitrary line in 06.
No blood sugar problems? No cataracts?
Did you stop reading between May 04 and May 05? :)
-MT
Simon Dean - 11 Dec 2006 16:24 GMT >>In the course of one and a half years, my vision has changed slightly from >>being hyperopic to myopic. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -MT I was thinking about the change in the whole from between May 2005 to Dec 2006... which to me, a whole 1D down is a bit disconcerting... I've never been short sighted before...
No blood sugar problems, no cataracts, Im 29... Regular blood tests for thyroxine, and Im sure they check other things as well, nothing major has come to mind.
There's a few things that spring to my mind though...
1) Thyroid conditions... I seem to be particularly sensitive to my thyroid medication, and so it might be worth getting that re-tested. I've been taking it for three years, and my vision seems to correlate with the treatment for that. Just a thought.
2) Doctor said I had a slightly enlarged liver, and some very near normal values. That means to me, very slightly abnormal values. Quick reading, would have me believe... Enlarged Liver = Fatty Liver = Insulin Resistance = Type 2 Diabetes on the horizon
3) Somethings going on here that the docs in all my tests (MRI's, Migraine Tests, Worth 4 Dot, Bagolini, Maddox, Frisby, Lees Screen, Mallet et al); are not picking up on - certainly I've been told I have a 4th nerve palsy and my eye motions feel quite apparent when they do the cover tests, but Im compensating, but of course, whether the compensating is causing me any great deal of physical or mental stress I don't know... They did mumble something about fatty tissue around my orbits on the MRI, but said everything was fine... of course, MRI was done in September, so three months on...
Thanks Simon
Simon Dean - 11 Dec 2006 16:35 GMT >>In the course of one and a half years, my vision has changed slightly from >>being hyperopic to myopic. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -MT Incidentally Mike, Im really bewildered by when Im "decompensating" for whatever it is Im supposed to be compensating for, I'll assume some kind of eye alignment/4th Nerve Palsy, then Im really bewildered as to how a pair of sunglasses or a nice halogen light really makes things, standout.
It's like things become more 3D with depth and clarity.
I forgot to mention when i went for my eye test, about a small concern, probably not real, but a concern that colours when Im out and about (like green plants etc), appear washed out and has a grayish hue.
A carefully worn pair of sunglasses though brings out all the colours with more definition. Things look too cold and clinical without sunglasses, no heart or warmth. Of course at this stage, anything that anybody could suggest would be pure speculation, but speculate away. Robert suggested intraocular light scatter... and some of the pictures shown of low contrast seemed eerily familiar. I like to look through some of the potential issues and see if I can check off the tickboxes.
Cya Simon
Dr Judy - 11 Dec 2006 17:01 GMT > Is Otis's prediction coming true? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In the course of one and a half years, my vision has changed slightly > from being hyperopic to myopic. Were the various refractions done with cycloplegia? If not, then a variation of +/- 0.25 (which is what we see) is nothing to be concerned about.
Judy
Sherman - 12 Dec 2006 03:50 GMT Simon Dean says...
> Is Otis's prediction coming true?
> Is close work really affecting my eyes?
> Optician said Im slightly short sighted now.
> In the course of one and a half years, my vision has > changed slightly from being hyperopic to myopic.
> I obviously realise that it could just be very slightly > oversensitive equipment/me/whatever, and it's nothing to > worry about. At the same time, hoping that it's not the > start of a downward trend. I started wearing glasses as a teenager, and got progressively more nearsighted as time went on. I got all the way up to -7.50 in my mid 40's. I've always done a lot of reading and closeup work.
It's said that myopia is virtually unknown in non-literate societies, and that idea has led to the inference that myopia is largely caused by long periods of the strong accomodation needed for reading and other closeup work.
The same logic says that the above effect can be largely avoided by using reading glasses for near vision even if you can still accomodate to read. The idea is that with strong reading glasses, the eyes are back at full distance vision with no accomodation.
So then we would have everyone using reading glasses, or bifocals, from an early age at an add of like +2.00 or +2.25, and in theory that would keep them from becoming myopic.
My myopia started to reverse a couple years after presbyopia set in, and I started getting an "add" prescription. My most recent Rx is -6.00, and as I said in another thread, my reading glasses are now my computer glasses, so I'm now down to something like -5.50, I would guess. I understand this is fairly common.
I'm not sure I buy the whole theory, but it seems to me that wearing +2.00 add reading glasses, even at age 29, is not likely to hurt you. It might be worth a try.
Neil Brooks - 12 Dec 2006 04:59 GMT > Simon Dean says... > [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > wearing +2.00 add reading glasses, even at age 29, is not > likely to hurt you. It might be worth a try. Interesting.
You're new here, aren't you ;-)
Sherman - 12 Dec 2006 14:01 GMT Neil Brooks says...
> Interesting.
> You're new here, aren't you ;-) Yes I am. Was that a subtle hint to keep my mouth shut because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I had been here for a while? :-)
Neil Brooks - 12 Dec 2006 15:38 GMT > Neil Brooks says... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I had > been here for a while? :-) Not at all. I would never advocate silence from anybody. This IS, however, a forum about the known and proven aspects of "sci" and "med." You should reed the weekly posting from Bev.
Also, If you search this forum for ... say ... "plus lens" and "myopia," you'll see that there is a =passionate= advocate who has lurked/trolled here for years. He claims to be an engineer, yet
- understands not at all the well-established scientific method
- refuses to answer myriad direct, honest, cogent, and relevant questions that SHOULD lead a real scientist to re-evaluate his position
- spouts logical fallacy after logical fallacy
etc., etc.
In other words, you've raised THE long-standing hot-button issue of s.m.v.
We don't seem to have anybody on this forum who is genuinely willing, or able, to answer the numerous questions that have been repeatedly raised over the years, so we're left with the Plus Lens Theory being the stuff of near religious beliefs pressed immutably forward by conspiracy theorists [1] who have never established a single 'proper' study that would prove their hypothesis,
Here's what's =known=:
For people with near-point esophoria -- a binocular function issue -- plus lenses can help slow myopia SLIGHTLY. For people WITHOUT this readily diagnosable issue, plus lenses CAN and DO induce DOUBLE-VISION in some people. This is generally considered a bad thing. In all other existing testing (this forum is rife with those citations), it doesn't help NON near-point esophores and has actually been shown to HASTEN myopia progression.
The "non-literate" civilization thing has been shot down repeatedly. Introduced to Western Culture, American Eskimos--the primary focus of this sort of study--pick up books AND junk food at the same time. Simple carbohydrates look as guilty as near work (another logical impediment handily overlooked by our avuncular loon, Mr. Brown).
I'm not in the optical, optometric, ophthalmologic, or otherwise eye-care business in any way, BUT ... before I recommended a therapy like plus lenses for the purposes stated here, I'd CERTAINLY recommend that they be thoroughly evaluated, by a competent optometrist, for binocular vision function AND appropriate prescription.
Even the guy who runs the linked website realized that--absent prisms in their plus lenses--some people would develop double vision. OUR local troll doesn't bother with that little snipet of information and has created double vision in probably a dozen people, leading yours truly to initiate a State of Pennsylvania investigation into his--presumably illegal--practices of Optometry Sans License :-)
Welcome!
Neil
[1] http://www.myopia.org
Sherman - 12 Dec 2006 17:14 GMT Neil Brooks says...
>> > Interesting.
>> > You're new here, aren't you ;-)
>> Yes I am. Was that a subtle hint to keep my mouth shut >> because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I >> had been here for a while? :-)
> Not at all. I would never advocate silence from > anybody. This IS, however, a forum about the known and > proven aspects of "sci" and "med." You should reed the > weekly posting from Bev.
> Also, If you search this forum for ... say ... "plus > lens" and "myopia," you'll see that there is a > =passionate= advocate who has lurked/trolled here for > years. He claims to be an engineer, yet
> - understands not at all the well-established scientific > method
> - refuses to answer myriad direct, honest, cogent, and > relevant questions that SHOULD lead a real scientist to > re-evaluate his position
> - spouts logical fallacy after logical fallacy
> etc., etc.
> In other words, you've raised THE long-standing > hot-button issue of s.m.v. Ok, well it looks like I was just wandering along, not paying much attention, and stumbled right into the main battlefield. Thanks for the heads-up.
Well, just to show you how new I am, I've never heard of the Plus Lens Theory, although I certainly had heard of the supposed association of heavy reading with myopia. And I was just trying to make sense of the fact that my own myopia stopped progressing, and began regressing, when I stopped trying to accomodate. Of course, I understand that that could have resulted from any number of unrelated changes as I got older - in the lens structure, or whatever.
For what it's worth, here's the history of my right eye Rx's since I began keeping copies. The left eye has always been a bit less myopic.
Age Rx
21 -4.25 27 -4.75 29 -5.50 32 -6.00 36 -6.50 40 -7.00 43 -7.25 44 -7.50 45 -7.75 46 -7.50 50 -6.50 58 -6.00 60 -5.50 (est)
Anyway, I'll try not to spout off again until I've been here a bit longer. And since I DO believe in science and evidence and all that stuff, I'll withdraw my comments to the OP.
I am curious, however, about the double-vision thing. Can you explain how that would be caused by wearing normal reading glasses at, say, +2 add? Assuming that the centers were properly placed at the IPD for close-up convergence, I don't see why reading glasses would lead to double-vision since the eyes should be converged the same whether you're accomodating or not. And, what does adding prism do - move you back out to distance convergence?
otisbrown@pa.net - 12 Dec 2006 17:33 GMT Dear Sherman,
Yes, the preventive second-opinion is a "hot button" topic on SMV.
Just to be clear, some ODs have their children wearing a plus for reading -- to avoid entry into myopia. See:
www.chinamyopia.org
Others LOVE that minus lens and its "instant" effect, ergo, the majority opinion.
Neither is right or wrong as such -- it is just that each OD sees this situtaion differerently.
I prefer to review the facts myself -- and not be TOLD what the facts are. See:
http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/DynamicEye.html
And enjoy,
Otis
> Neil Brooks says... > [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > accomodating or not. And, what does adding prism do - move > you back out to distance convergence? Neil Brooks - 12 Dec 2006 17:43 GMT > Dear Sherman, > > Yes, the preventive second-opinion is a "hot button" topic on SMV. > > Just to be clear, some ODs have their children wearing > a plus for reading -- to avoid entry into myopia. See: Sigh.
ONE, Otis, and he offers NO evidence that it's doing anything. YOU have a nephew and a niece who both used your method. One is puh-lenty myopic now to require DMV restrictions. Crashing failure, that, but you won't admit.....
> Others LOVE that minus lens and its "instant" effect, > ergo, the majority opinion. > > Neither is right or wrong as such -- it is just that > each OD sees this situtaion differerently. Yeah: they use the scientific method and evidence-based medicine. You use faith and vehemence of assertion, coupled with a wellspring of logical fallacies.
> I prefer to review the facts myself -- and not > be TOLD what the facts are. See: As if you'd ever listen anyway....
How are SALES of YOUR and STEVE LEUNG's books coming anyway?
Dan Abel - 12 Dec 2006 17:51 GMT > Dear Sherman, > > Yes, the preventive second-opinion is a "hot button" topic on SMV. > > Just to be clear, some ODs have their children wearing > a plus for reading -- to avoid entry into myopia. See: When you say "some" do you really mean "one"? Tell us their names.
> I prefer to review the facts myself -- and not > be TOLD what the facts are. See: > > http://www.geocities.com/otisbrown17268/DynamicEye.html Does this mean that you are going to tell yourself what the facts are?
Neil Brooks - 12 Dec 2006 17:40 GMT > I am curious, however, about the double-vision thing. Can > you explain how that would be caused by wearing normal [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > accomodating or not. And, what does adding prism do - move > you back out to distance convergence? First, we're getting above my pay-grade here. I'm just a patient with a pretty bad combination of refractive error, accommodative dysfunction, binocular dysfunction and ocular surface disorders (I'm easily beaten in any sport involving a ball!), but....
The "near vision triad" is a physiologically coupled triumvirate of accommodation, convergence, and puillary mydriasis. You can't really separate them. How CLOSELY bound this relationship is varies from person to person, based on such things as AC/A ratio, CA/C ratio, vergence amplitudes, accommodative amplitudes, etc.
IF, however, you "disrupt" this relationship where it's NOT indicated (say, by giving plus glasses to somebody who's not farsighted), then you relieve accommodation AND lower the convergence stimulus. This can cause problems ... if not in everybody.
Here's an example: I was leaving, in July, for four months bopping around Europe. I asked my strabismus ophthalmologist to prescribe readers for me. I don't have them because--essentially--I don't read. I wanted something for maps and travel guides. He took all the appropriate measurements and prescribed near vision glasses with about +2d and prisms.
They worked well, BUT ... when I REMOVED them ... I was seeing double. He pulled the plug on any further use of the readers. I'm NOT baseline; I'm an outlier, BUT ... when "you" futz with the near-vision-triad in people whose accommodative and binocular function status has not been evaluated, you CAN cause this problem.
One of the myriad legit questions that Mr. Brown won't answer is this: he constantly tells us what happens to the eyesight of monkeys who--while they don't NEED glasses--are GIVEN glasses. The question that =I= pose is this: how can you feel safe in extrapolating that the same results occur when glasses are APPROPRIATELY prescribed to somebody with refractive error.
The WAY I've chosen to pose this question, of late, is to ask him to inject his heart with high-dose epinephrine ... or to inject himself with insulin. If he doesn't think that underlying physiology is relevant, he shouldn't hesitate. Sadly, I don't think he's taken me up on this yet.
Don't be afraid to speak up. Just pointing out the "DANGER: MINEFIELD" sign that you missed when you showed up :-)
Neil
Sherman - 12 Dec 2006 18:35 GMT Neil Brooks says...
> First, we're getting above my pay-grade here. That's never a problem for a dancer. :-) Just turn up the volume.
> The "near vision triad" is a physiologically coupled > triumvirate of accommodation, convergence, and puillary > mydriasis. You can't really separate them. How CLOSELY > bound this relationship is varies from person to person, > based on such things as AC/A ratio, CA/C ratio, vergence > amplitudes, accommodative amplitudes, etc. I got all of that except the "etc." Well, maybe not quite all of it. But I get the idea. The brain is accustomed to converging and accommodating and, uh, mydriasising at the same time, and it's not nice, or may not be nice, to fool with Mother Nature.
> Don't be afraid to speak up. Just pointing out the > "DANGER: MINEFIELD" sign that you missed when you showed > up :-) Yes, I did indeed miss that sign. Probably need new glasses.
Dan Abel - 12 Dec 2006 17:54 GMT > >> Yes I am. Was that a subtle hint to keep my mouth shut > >> because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I > >> had been here for a while? :-) I think it's pretty common for myopes to get more myopic with age, and then at some point get less myopic. It certainly happened with me. At least until I got cataract.
Neil Brooks - 12 Dec 2006 17:59 GMT > > >> Yes I am. Was that a subtle hint to keep my mouth shut > > >> because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > then at some point get less myopic. It certainly happened with me. At > least until I got cataract. Dan,
Perhaps it would be good to clarify, for Sherman, whether you have "natural" eyes, "dynamic" eyes, or "fundamental" eyes.
I always forget.
Neil
Dan Abel - 12 Dec 2006 20:28 GMT > > > >> Yes I am. Was that a subtle hint to keep my mouth shut > > > >> because I'm restating the obvious, as I would know if I [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I always forget. I forget.
:-)
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