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Medical Forum / General / Vision / December 2006

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How to recognize AR coating

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RobyRob - 02 Dec 2006 19:38 GMT
How do you recognize that glasses have anti-reflective coating?

I recently bought new glasses with AR coating, but I constantly see
reflection of my eyes and there is no green color that I had in
previous glasses.

Did my optician screw me and didn't give me AR coating? Or is it just
poor quality?

I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
past.
Mark A - 02 Dec 2006 22:02 GMT
> How do you recognize that glasses have anti-reflective coating?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
> past.

Take off both pair of lenses and look at them from the outside under bright
overhead lights that are directly shining on the outer surface of the lens.
If the new lenses are much more difficult to see through because of the
reflection of the lights, then it probably has no coating. The coated lens
should only have soft glare of the reflected light, instead of harsh
reflections.

Or, have some one else look into your glasses while your wearing them in a
room with lots of very bright lights overhead.
William Stacy, O.D. - 03 Dec 2006 01:14 GMT
Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can see
the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a fluorescent
light) off the front surface.  If the reflection is white, you have no
coating.  If the reflection is blue, green, or purple, you have an AR
coating.

w.stacy, o.d.

> How do you recognize that glasses have anti-reflective coating?
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
> past.
The Real Bev - 03 Dec 2006 06:40 GMT
> Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can see
> the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a fluorescent
> light) off the front surface.  If the reflection is white, you have no
> coating.  If the reflection is blue, green, or purple, you have an AR
> coating.

I would have thought that ideally you would see NO reflection.  WTF is
it good for, then?

> w.stacy, o.d.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
>> past.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
===================================================================
"You know that I could go on the Internet right now under my
alternate screen name, "CherryXXX69," and get complete strangers to
email me a picture of their scrotum. I tell you, this country gave
the finger to privacy a long time ago."              -- Bill Maher

Mike Tyner - 03 Dec 2006 07:00 GMT
> I would have thought that ideally you would see NO reflection.  WTF is it
> good for, then?

The reflection will be there, but only 10-20% as bright as the original.
Nikon can't get 100% reduction on 35mm lenses, either.

The remaining reflections have a pale tint that can be controlled somewhat
but not totally eliminated. Most coatings are multi-layer, each layer acting
as a notch filter, reducing only a certain color from the reflection. Layers
of different thicknesses are combined to cover the entire visible spectrum.

AR coatings use optical interference (more on that, if you want), and
optical interference depends on thickness. So if you plant a fingerprint on
the front surface, you've created ridges that disrupt the uniformity of
thickness and produced a prominent smudge. AR coatings can be hard to keep
clean - another easy way to detect the coating.

-MT
Salmon Egg - 03 Dec 2006 20:22 GMT
On 12/2/06 11:00 PM, in article
Utadnc2upfGl6-_YnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
<mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote:

>> I would have thought that ideally you would see NO reflection.  WTF is it
>> good for, then?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> as a notch filter, reducing only a certain color from the reflection. Layers
> of different thicknesses are combined to cover the entire visible spectrum.

One thing an individual layer of an AR coating does not do is to act as
"notch" independent of what the other layers do. That is what makes
broadband AR coatings difficult to design and implement.

On the contrary, you can achieve high reflectivity across the spectrum by
using multiple sets of layers. Each set of layers increases reflectivity for
a band of wavelengths and overlapping the sets, broadens the band.

Designing antireflection coatings is analogous to designing antenna matching
circuits. It is easy to design for narrow bandwidth but difficult for large
bandwidths. Almost anything you do, without good planning, increases
reflection of the signal from the antenna.

> AR coatings use optical interference (more on that, if you want), and
> optical interference depends on thickness. So if you plant a fingerprint on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> -MT

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
David Combs - 22 Dec 2006 01:02 GMT
>On 12/2/06 11:00 PM, in article
>Utadnc2upfGl6-_YnZ2dnUVZ_vydnZ2d@giganews.com, "Mike Tyner"
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>bandwidths. Almost anything you do, without good planning, increases
>reflection of the signal from the antenna.

(1) I suppose (conservation of something?) there's recriprocity,
   in that what it does to the light impinging *on* the lens (from
   eg the sky) is equally done to any light coming the other direction?

   (eg a prior post about someone seeing his own eyes while he/she
    wears the glasses?)

(2) "Mirror-like" glasses, as worn by police, prison-guards (I suppose),
   etc, where the wearer can see your eyes, but you can't see his/hers?

   Question: I suppose that if he is looking at you *with setting sun
   at his back*, but fairly dark (ie opposite the sunset) impinging
   on the *front* of his glasses,

          then you can see his/her eyes, and he's looking into
          a mirror?

   Or does it somehow not work that way, symmetrically?

Thanks,

David
William Stacy, O.D. - 03 Dec 2006 07:08 GMT
Ideally yes, but the ideal does not exist (a film that eliminates ALL
reflections would be nice, but is theoretically impossible to achieve).
 The fact is, AR coatings work well because the intensity or visibility
of the reflections are REDUCED by around 90% or so.  Put another way,
instead of roughly 10% of the incoming light is reflected away without
AR coating (varies by index of refraction) while with AR, only about 1%
is reflected away.  That means under low light situations, transmission
to the the eye is increased from 90% to 99%, roughly.  Of course most
people get it for the cosmetic benefit of far less noticeable lenses.
You never see a TV person wearing uncoated lenses.  You wouldn't be able
to see their eyes for the reflections of all the lights they use in a
studio.

w.stacy, o.d.

>> Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can
>> see the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
>>> past.
bldegle2@comcast.net - 03 Dec 2006 13:43 GMT
I used to get coated lenses with my script, however, I have found that
the coating itself causes the reflection you described.

And, just to add to the mix, once the coating gets some age on it, it
actually starts clouding the lense a  bit, which causes more
reflection.  I noticed it was especially bad if the sun was coming from
your side, kinda over your shoulder.  annoying to no end while driving
unless the sun visor is protecting.

anyway, now i get my specs NONCOATED, much CLEARER, and they clean up
much better, and the reflection, gone.

I am not a TV personality, so coatings are required............

Just something to think about.

feathered one

> Ideally yes, but the ideal does not exist (a film that eliminates ALL
> reflections would be nice, but is theoretically impossible to achieve).
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> >>> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
> >>> past.
bldegle2@comcast.net - 03 Dec 2006 13:45 GMT
"so coatings are required............"

aren't>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sorry
RobyRob - 03 Dec 2006 14:47 GMT
I performed the tests you mentioned.
It seems that my glasses do NOT have AR coating.

What should I do with my optician who charged me for AR? What can I do?
I have good experience with AR and I need it.
VicTek - 03 Dec 2006 17:10 GMT
>I performed the tests you mentioned.
> It seems that my glasses do NOT have AR coating.
>
> What should I do with my optician who charged me for AR? What can I do?
> I have good experience with AR and I need it.

Why not just go back and talk about it?  Remember he (probably) hands the
job off to a lab and he may be completely unaware that they made a mistake.
You could say something like "You know, I seem to be getting a lot of glare
with these.  Can you check the AR coating for me?"
William Stacy, O.D. - 03 Dec 2006 17:25 GMT
I agree.  I would say something more like "I think the lab forgot the AR
coating". Dispensers hate to admit they make the error.

>>I performed the tests you mentioned.
>>It seems that my glasses do NOT have AR coating.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You could say something like "You know, I seem to be getting a lot of glare
> with these.  Can you check the AR coating for me?"
William Stacy, O.D. - 03 Dec 2006 17:28 GMT
Used to be true, and still is for the cheaper coatings, but the modern
ones, like Alize' or Hi Vision with View Protect are way better, easier
to clean, and don't scratch, unless you're grossly mishandling them.

Yes, the coating causes the reflections to change color, but the
INTENSITY of the reflection, or the AMOUNT of visible light reflected,
is WAY less.

> I used to get coated lenses with my script, however, I have found that
> the coating itself causes the reflection you described.
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>>>>>I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
>>>>>past.
William Stacy, O.D. - 03 Dec 2006 17:31 GMT
And why do you think camera, telescope and microscope makers wouldn't
THINK of releasing a product without coated optics?

Could it be because they work?
Salmon Egg - 03 Dec 2006 20:32 GMT
On 12/3/06 9:31 AM, in article
GRDch.9625$yf7.8393@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net, "William Stacy, O.D."
<wstacy@obase.net> wrote:

> And why do you think camera, telescope and microscope makers wouldn't
> THINK of releasing a product without coated optics?
>
> Could it be because they work?

The requirements for these kinds of optics is more stringent in many ways.
There are more glass to air interfaces in a typical camera lens and many
more in a zoom lens. Any flare is permanently recorded on film or stored
digitally to remind one of the flaw. For visual observation, you can usually
do something to see better. If you are driving into the sun and trying to
tell what color the traffic light is against the glare, good AR coatings
will help a bit, but it still would be difficult. And when it is over, there
is no exposure to remind you of your traffic problem.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Dan Abel - 03 Dec 2006 22:22 GMT
> do something to see better. If you are driving into the sun and trying to
> tell what color the traffic light is against the glare, good AR coatings
> will help a bit, but it still would be difficult. And when it is over, there
> is no exposure to remind you of your traffic problem.

Actually, traffic lights (and signs) don't require that you know what
color they are.  That's why people who are color blind can drive just
fine.  The position of the light tells you what they mean.  The outline
of traffic signs tells you what they mean.  Of course, if you can see
colors, that just reinforces the message.

I only know how things work in the US.  It may be different elsewhere.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Salmon Egg - 03 Dec 2006 23:14 GMT
On 12/3/06 2:22 PM, in article
dabel-96058E.14221903122006@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net, "Dan Abel"
<dabel@sonic.net> wrote:

> Actually, traffic lights (and signs) don't require that you know what
> color they are.  That's why people who are color blind can drive just
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I only know how things work in the US.  It may be different elsewhere.

What you say is true. But I still remember some years ago, driving into the
sun while in Albuquerque. They depended mostly on single lights suspended in
the middle of intersections. They were small and poorly baffled. I could not
see the weak light well enough to tell whether it was red or green either by
observation of color or of position. Meanwhile, I could not understand why
the drivers there were zooming around me at high speed.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
The Real Bev - 04 Dec 2006 03:09 GMT
> Ideally yes, but the ideal does not exist (a film that eliminates ALL
> reflections would be nice, but is theoretically impossible to achieve).
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> is reflected away.  That means under low light situations, transmission
> to the the eye is increased from 90% to 99%, roughly.  

So an AR coating is the REVERSE of sunglasses?  Doesn't seem all that
useful...

> Of course most
> people get it for the cosmetic benefit of far less noticeable lenses.
> You never see a TV person wearing uncoated lenses.  You wouldn't be able
> to see their eyes for the reflections of all the lights they use in a
> studio.

Heh.  I have little squinty eyes and reflections would be GOOD.  So
that's it?  Largely cosmetic benefits for the benefit of other people?
I might hope that a coating on the back side of the lens would eliminate
the reflections that boN;ê off the glass into MY eyes, a truly
desirable feature if true...

>>> Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can
>>> see the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>>> I paid a lot for it. I got much better AR coating for less money in the
>>>> past.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
              Non illegitimi carborundum.

Mike Tyner - 04 Dec 2006 04:34 GMT
> So an AR coating is the REVERSE of sunglasses?  Doesn't seem all that
> useful...

There are two general justifications for AR coating.

It makes the lenses look less noticeable, a cosmetic benefit.

For vision, it reduces internal reflections, commonly streetlight
reflections at night.

It does increase transmittance a little but in daylight we just compensate
with smaller pupils. Which has its own benefits, BTW. But three or five
percent more "transmittance" is way less than one f-stop, I think.

-MT
Salmon Egg - 03 Dec 2006 20:13 GMT
On 12/2/06 10:41 PM, in article Jhuch.1297$M25.13@newsfe05.lga, "The Real
Bev" <bashley101+usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can see
>> the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a fluorescent
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I would have thought that ideally you would see NO reflection.  WTF is
> it good for, then?

Getting broadband antireflection performance is difficult indeed. In making
a design you really must have a specification as to what is tolerable. Cost
often is a consideration.

For typical glass, reflectivity is about 4% per surface. A simple one layer
coat can bring that down to about 1% in the middle of the visible range and
a fair about away from the middle as well. To do better requires more layers
and expense.

For single layer coatings, it turns out that higher index allows better AR
performance. For magnesium fluoride, a lens of index of 1.90 would give very
close to zero reflectance at the design wavelength. A slightly lower index,
1.80, is likely to give give better overall broadband performance.

If you are willing to pay hundreds, and possibly thousands, of dollars and
use glass lenses, you could get excellent AR coatings.

Panavision makes zoom lenses with many glass to air surfaces. Without good
AR coatings (better than used on spectacles) those lenses would not be
commercially viable.

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Robert Martellaro - 06 Dec 2006 17:35 GMT
>> Take them off and look at the lens while holding it so that you can see
>> the reflection of a bright light (preferably white, like a fluorescent
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I would have thought that ideally you would see NO reflection.  WTF is
>it good for, then?

The color is not visible from the wearer's perspective.

I show my clients my regular coated glasses compared to an uncoated pair (same
script), demonstrating the cosmetic difference. However, when I put on the
uncoated pair, my vision seems foggy, as if the lens needs cleaning. There's
less contrast and slightly less brightness, as if someone turned down the lights
a notch. The uncoated pair feels like a cheap piece of plastic in front of my
eyes.

I prefer the improved vision of coated optics, and most of my clients (about
80%) concur.
Robert Martellaro
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Optician/Owner
Roberts Optical
Wauwatosa Wi.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field."
 - Niels Bohr
dill - 03 Dec 2006 21:39 GMT
Of the four lenses in the two pairs of glasses I recently picked up,
three lenses showed pronounced starbursts on car headlights at night.
The fourth lens showed a soft halo around the headlights and more of a
scalloped cookie-cutter shape. When I descibed this to the manager, he
suggested we try a different brand of AR; he also thought the lab may
have pulled three lenses from one poorly made batch. He, too, looked
for the green tinge, which appeared on all four lenses. The lenses also
had UV coating - one would think that would have a tinge of color, too.

Definitely take them back and ask a few questions. -Dill

> How do you recognize that glasses have anti-reflective coating?
Liz Day - 05 Dec 2006 02:24 GMT
>I might hope that a coating on the back side of the lens would eliminate
the reflections that boN ;? off the glass into MY eyes, a truly
desirable feature if true...

I believe that they do do this.   If you go to Lenscrafters, they will
show you a sample lens that is supposedly AR coated in the middle and
not AR coated on the perimeter.   It certainly is a lot easier to see
through the AR part, even during ordinary room conditions.

LD
RobyRob - 08 Dec 2006 19:14 GMT
My optician apologized and immediately replaced the lenses with new
ones. So everything is OK now! Thank you all for your help!
VicTek - 09 Dec 2006 16:59 GMT
> My optician apologized and immediately replaced the lenses with new
> ones. So everything is OK now! Thank you all for your help!

Glad that worked out for you <g>.
 
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