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Medical Forum / General / Vision / November 2006

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no depth perception??

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Liz Day - 17 Nov 2006 19:36 GMT
A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
always been nearsighted, but not drastically so, and wears glasses to
correct this anyway.

How is this possible?  If someone has two eyes both with (corrected to)
20/20 vision, how could they not also have depth perception?
Especially if they have been successfully driving a car their whole
life.   Possible?   I would have thought that wasn't very safe.

cheers,
LD
Mike Tyner - 17 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT
>A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
> sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
> always been nearsighted, but not drastically so, and wears glasses to
> correct this anyway.

Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size
and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving.

Normally, we also have a special stereo sense called "stereopsis," a
delicate neurological discrimination of the differences between two images
perceived from slightly different positions in space. Vision physiologists
call it "retinal disparity." It contributes to "depth perception" even far
away, but it is most effective up close, in arm's reach. It's how you
appreciate random-dot stereograms and the Viewmaster.

Stereopsis isn't present at birth. Both eyes must learn to work together,
during a "critical period" in early childhood when the brain actually grows
connections to enable us to discriminate retinal disparity. Beyond six, or
ten, if the brain has never had good, simultaneous input from both eyes, the
ability doesn't develop. It's almost unheard-of to develop stereopsis after
age 10 or 12.  ("Almost" because there are famous stories (google "Stereo
Sue") but many think they actually started development as an infant.)

So your friend can be totally lacking in stereopsis but fully competent to
drive. If a subtle condition (eg small-angle esotropia) deprived him of
complete binocular fusion as a child, stereopsis won't develop. All he gets
from a 3-D movie is double images and confusion, and he might not make it as
a fighter pilot.

It's more common than you might think, and it's one reason that patching
amblyopic kids is not as effective as patching combined with vision
training.

-MT
Salmon Egg - 18 Nov 2006 01:58 GMT
On 11/17/06 11:36 AM, in article
1163792208.624222.117340@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Liz Day"
<beebuzz@kiva.net> wrote:

> A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
> sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cheers,
> LD

Haven't you ever met someone who appears to have excellent hearing but
comprehends almost nothing?

Bill
-- Fermez le Bush
Mark A - 18 Nov 2006 05:25 GMT
>A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
> sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cheers,
> LD

Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his bad
eye.

Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a muscle
imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular
vision.
Liz Day - 18 Nov 2006 07:57 GMT
> Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size
and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving.

I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of
disorientation is immediate and disturbing.  It's scary to imagine
driving without stereo vision.  YIKES!!   I suppose you could move your
head back and forth like a mongoose.
<8-(

>Normally, we also have a special stereo sense called "stereopsis," a
delicate neurological discrimination of the differences between two
images
perceived from slightly different positions in space.

Right.

>Stereopsis isn't present at birth. Both eyes must learn to work together,
during a "critical period" in early childhood

Makes sense.

> Beyond six, or ten, if the brain has never had good, simultaneous input from both eyes, the ability doesn't develop.

Hmmm.   I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his
eyes at that time.   Maybe I should ask.  I'm having trouble imagining
how someone could not develop this "natural" ability, or what things
would look like if your eyes didn't work in synch.

Yet I believe him, as I've watched him use a camera and be unable to
tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder
or not.   The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the
center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the
edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't
pointing at it).   Could this be a dominant-eye thing?   Perhaps the
non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder?   Neither of us
could ever figure out what happened.

> If a subtle condition (eg small-angle esotropia) deprived him of complete binocular fusion as a child, stereopsis won't develop.

Small-angle esotropia?

>Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his bad eye.
Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a
muscle
imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular
vision.

Can you say more?  How would you tell if that was happening?

thanks,
LD
Mike Tyner - 18 Nov 2006 14:50 GMT
> I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of
> disorientation is immediate and disturbing.  It's scary to imagine
> driving without stereo vision.

Yes, but you haven't had a lifetime to adapt. Many of them don't know
anything is missing.

> I suppose you could move your
> head back and forth like a mongoose.
> <8-(

Sometimes they do. They also thread a needle differently.

> Hmmm.   I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his
> eyes at that time.

Well, that's not true. If he lacks stereo, there was most likely a binocular
vision problem in youth.

> Yet I believe him, as I've watched him use a camera and be unable to
> tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder
> or not.   The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the
> center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the
> edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't
> pointing at it).

I don't see how it relates to lack of stereo.

> Could this be a dominant-eye thing?   Perhaps the
> non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder?   Neither of us
> could ever figure out what happened.

I can't either. Using the non-dominant eye wouldn't trash your ability to
frame and compose a picture.

> Small-angle esotropia?

Google it. It's a subtle eye turn that isn't obvious.

>>Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his
>>bad eye.
> Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a
> muscle
> imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular
> vision.

Like a small-angle esotropia. BTW - by definition, amblyopia means vision is
less than 20/20. Amblyopia can be treated but stereo doesn't always follow.

> Can you say more?  How would you tell if that was happening?

By testing stereo vision. :)

-MT
jerzger - 18 Nov 2006 15:37 GMT
Wondering if this might apply to me. Is testing stereo vision something
you can test on your own, something you ask your eye doctor to do,
something they automatically do during an eye exam? If you don't have
stereo vision, are you more likely to do well in correcting cataracts
with one iol for distance and the other for close up or doesn't it
matter.


> By testing stereo vision. :)
>
> -MT
Loren Amelang - 18 Nov 2006 22:08 GMT
>Wondering if this might apply to me. Is testing stereo vision something
>you can test on your own, something you ask your eye doctor to do,
>something they automatically do during an eye exam?

Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot
stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates
you learned stereopsis during the "critical period" in your youth, but
it does not necessarily indicate that you use binocular fusion when
viewing your daily life. I've always been able to see these contrived
images in 3D.

I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings
in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive
system that divided my visual world into discrete bits - each tagged
with a preferred eye, perspective, size, and location in a maplike
flat universe. I knew I didn't see like other people, because I
remembered the process of losing binocular fusion, but I had
completely forgotten what the actual experience of 3D was like.

Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on
roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis
back, I'm finding height is spectacularly, viscerally scary - in the
same places where it used to be just logical information.

Loren
William Stacy, O.D. - 19 Nov 2006 20:21 GMT
> Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot
> stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates
> you learned stereopsis during the "critical period" in your youth, but
> it does not necessarily indicate that you use binocular fusion when
> viewing your daily life. I've always been able to see these contrived
> images in 3D.

You can call them contrived, but they are legitimate measures of
stereopsis, unless you've learned how to get around them without
binocular fusion. This trick can be done for some tests, but not others
(the ones that are truly random dot style). And just getting around the
test does not mean you "learned stereopsis".

Stereopsis is unique to binocular fusion, and ACCURATE stereo (down to
the level of 30 seconds of arc) is not possible without "normal"
bifoveal fixation (coupled with normal or non-anomalous retinal
correspondence, and roughly normal acuity in both eyes).

And stereopsis is only "learned" in the sense that it develops along
with normal retinal correspondence.  It is not something you can "teach"
to someone who doesn't possess binocularity unless you can correct the
underlying defect, and it is certainly not something you can "unlearn"
without depriving the person of a normal binocularity he/she once had.

> I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings
> in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> remembered the process of losing binocular fusion, but I had
> completely forgotten what the actual experience of 3D was like.

This is not making sense to me.  For one thing, exactly how did you
"lose" binocular fusion?  Did you lose an eye, or develop a constant
strabismus, or what?

> Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on
> roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis
> back,

How are you getting it back, and has it been measured clinically?

w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 21 Nov 2006 07:26 GMT
>> Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot
>> stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>(the ones that are truly random dot style). And just getting around the
>test does not mean you "learned stereopsis".

I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always
been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones,
without resorting to any tricks. My point was that even though my
stereopsis capability with such images was normal, I did not maintain
binocular fusion when looking at the "real world".

>Stereopsis is unique to binocular fusion, and ACCURATE stereo (down to
>the level of 30 seconds of arc) is not possible without "normal"
>bifoveal fixation (coupled with normal or non-anomalous retinal
>correspondence, and roughly normal acuity in both eyes).

What I'm recovering now is far from your "accurate" level of detail,
but the feeling of 3D space, even though it lacks detail, is dramatic.
>And stereopsis is only "learned" in the sense that it develops along
>with normal retinal correspondence.  It is not something you can "teach"
>to someone who doesn't possess binocularity unless you can correct the
>underlying defect, and it is certainly not something you can "unlearn"
>without depriving the person of a normal binocularity he/she once had.

I totally agree about stereopsis. I must have had relatively normal
vision in early childhood. And I was certainly deprived of normal
binocularity starting around age eight. But I somehow maintained the
ability to view stereo photographs and stereograms.  

>> I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings
>> in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>"lose" binocular fusion?  Did you lose an eye, or develop a constant
>strabismus, or what?

Following a failed vision screening in second grade, I was prescribed
bifocals (plano with a +.75 add, to start) which were supposed to
prevent myopia. I suspect now that the centers were wildly wrong, and
the fitting was miserable. Wearing them was head-splittingly painful,
but both the doctor and my parents refused to listen to my complaints,
and I was forced to wear them during every waking moment. (I've since
met other victims of that bifocal plus experiment who smashed every
pair of lenses until their parents gave up, but none who tried to live
with them.)

I could not read at all through the bifocal part, but my parents had
been prompted to force me to, so I learned how to sneak one eye just
above the dividing line while still appearing to have my head and book
in the required position. That was just the beginning of a series of
different adaptations to different lenses, with more and more minus on
top, but seemingly no better fit.

Through all of this no one ever explained to me what I should be doing
in order to make the "plus lens" theory work, and nobody ever listened
when I said my glasses hurt my eyes and brain, or didn't fit.

Then hard contacts became available, and the story was they would
prevent myopia, so the bifocals were yanked away along with the
separate space where I had done all of my reading for years, and I
entered a totally different world of visual distortion and poor fit.
By college I ended up -5.25, with miserable oblique astigmatism, and
finally just threw the lenses all away cold turkey.

>> Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on
>> roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis
>> back,
>
>How are you getting it back, and has it been measured clinically?

It has been a long slow process of becoming aware of the visual cues
that were preventing "normal binocularity", and consciously practising
undoing them. For instance, today's exercise has been to force myself,
while turning my head toward the right, to "anchor" myself to the
earth via the image in the part of my right eye's field of view that
is blocked from the left eye by my nose.

While wearing negative lenses, the view through the binocular part of
my field of view was tiny relative to my peripheral vision, so a small
head rotation caused a lot of "world space" to disappear behind my
nose quickly. When it re-appeared outside the lenses and behind my
nose in the peripheral area it was much larger and slower-moving (in
the angular sense), but I knew it was the same scene and learned to
"create mental space" to take up the difference. (Eventually I created
so much of this space that the nose boundaries were projected to
infinity, and then beyond infinity. I lived most of my life feeling
like I had backed out of the universe, back through the last shell of
a pre-Copernican heaven, and the universe was contained in a roughly
four foot bubble suspended in front of my eyes.)

For most of my life the trustworthy edge of the peripheral boundary
formed by my nose was the binocular side - the peripheral side was
like a "space pump" where the sizes and angular dimensions of objects
were completely flexible. So today I've been learning to mentally hold
the size of objects in my right peripheral view constant as they
approach and then appear beyond the nose boundary in binocular view.
The experience is still unsettling, somewhat on the level of an LSD
trip. Learning to hold the left side "solid" was comparatively easy.
To make this remaining side solid I am forced to resolve my sense of
the size and location of my own body.

I'm reminded of the discussion in some of the later replies about
catching a ball. Early in my adventures in lens wearing, the issue
with ball sports was just to be able to track the ball fast enough in
the trustworthy central binocular vision area to know where the ball
was. As my sense of peripheral space became more disconnected from my
central vision, the issue was more with feeling where my body was in
relation to the ball and the ball field. I could tell where the ball
was relative to the other players, but its relation to my own body was
about as real and immediate as that of a ball on television. My body
didn't even feel like it was on the same field.

No, none of this has been measured clinically. I'm not sure it even
relates to anything the optical professions measure. When I abandoned
lenses and started my self-directed journey, I thought the problem was
with my eyes. Now I'm convinced it is much deeper in my brain, and
bordering on metaphysics.

Loren
William Stacy, O.D. - 21 Nov 2006 20:40 GMT
> I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always
> been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones,
> without resorting to any tricks. My point was that even though my
> stereopsis capability with such images was normal, I did not maintain
> binocular fusion when looking at the "real world".

I doubt that.  You are implying that under the totally artificial and
difficult to fuse conditions of random dot stereograms, you do just
fine, but under the relatively easy conditions of real world, you lose
fusion. How do you know you lose fusion?  I would expect you to answer
that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of
alignment with the other whereupon you get instant double vision, or
possibly you have supression or anomalous retinal correspondence.  Your
own self diagnosing below does not support a condition of losing
binocular fusion. Those glasses you had were not sufficient to break
your binocularity, by any stretch.

> What I'm recovering now is far from your "accurate" level of detail,
> but the feeling of 3D space, even though it lacks detail, is dramatic.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> binocularity starting around age eight. But I somehow maintained the
> ability to view stereo photographs and stereograms.  

> Following a failed vision screening in second grade, I was prescribed
> bifocals (plano with a +.75 add, to start) which were supposed to
[quoted text clipped - 71 lines]
> with my eyes. Now I'm convinced it is much deeper in my brain, and
> bordering on metaphysics.

Rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the
presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really
quite easy to do.  While you might have some metaphysical or even
psychological problems, those are not in the realm of binocularity and
stereopsis.

w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 22 Nov 2006 03:44 GMT
>> I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always
>> been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>fine, but under the relatively easy conditions of real world, you lose
>fusion.

The difference is that stereograms and images are small, they fit
easily in the center of the binocular vision area that is evenly
affected by lenses. The real world wraps around and includes one's
body, and crosses many tricky physical and conceptual boundaries.

>How do you know you lose fusion?  

Perhaps fusion is the wrong word. I definitely did not experience the
same sensation of 3D solidity when looking at the real world that I
could get from stereo images, and that I'm now recovering. I was often
aware of which single eye I was depending on at any particular moment.
Closing that eye would produce an uncomfortable jump as the other one
took over.

> I would expect you to answer
>that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of
>alignment with the other

I've had several people report profound disturbance with how they see
my eyes aligned, and I've gradually learned to avoid certain "spaces"
that would trigger their anger, but if there is a misalignment, most
people are content to ignore it.

I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought
a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum
interpupillary distance was too narrow to allow me to see the full
field of view through both sides simultaneously. I actually filed down
the stops until they fit my eyes exactly. In the last few weeks since
I've started experiencing 3D views of the real world, I find that
spacing is too wide. I can't imagine an explanation...  

> whereupon you get instant double vision, or
>possibly you have supression or anomalous retinal correspondence.  

I rarely noticed any problem with double vision, unless I
intentionally tried to connect central and peripheral vision, or to
interfere with subconscious eye preference cues. .

> Your
>own self diagnosing below does not support a condition of losing
>binocular fusion. Those glasses you had were not sufficient to break
>your binocularity, by any stretch.

They were one factor among many, but they were the obvious physical
one.

>Rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the
>presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really
>quite easy to do.  

How? Are there any methods that don't involve the patient's report of
what they see?

If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite
its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of
3D solidity that I'm rediscovering?

Loren
William Stacy - 23 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT
>Perhaps fusion is the wrong word. I definitely did not experience the
>same sensation of 3D solidity when looking at the real world that I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>  

OK fusion IS the wrong word.  In physiology we talk about fusion as a
very specific condition of binocularity where the foveas are
simultaneously "locked on" an object, which allows the very special
ability to achieve 3-D vision or stereopsis where the brain can compute
the disparity between the two images and accurately determine the
distance of the object from the eyes.

>>I would expect you to answer
>>that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>  

That sounds like non-comitant strabismus (where one eye is more
misaligned in one direction of gaze and less in another).  If you have
it, you should be easily able to see it in a mirror, by moving your head
to various positions of gaze.

>I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought
>a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>spacing is too wide.
>  

It's easy to understand the binoculars not accommodating your presumably
wide pupillary distance, but I don't understand your last sentence
above.  What spacing is too wide?

>>rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the
>>presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>what they see?
>  

Yes there are.  Simple cover/uncover of one eye while closely observing
the other eye for movement will rule out or in strabismus.  The angle of
any deviation can be measured fairly accurately with loose prisms.

For stereo, the only one that I know of that doesn't require patient
reporting is the Howard Dolman test, where the patient tries to align
two pegs in a box where all monocular clues are removed.  He doesn't
report what he sees, but either can align them (in which case stereo is
present) or cannot, (in which case it is absent or defective). More
commonly, we use vectographic tests that do require interpretation from
the patient, but are pretty reliable except where a person has learned
to identify "closer" targets simply by detecting their slight offset on
the background.

>If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite
>its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of
>3D solidity that I'm rediscovering?
>
>  

Not sure, but if you are fusing binocularly even part time, you may be
developing some stereo.  It would take some careful testing to determine
if you are.  If not, it's as you said, maybe metaphysics not optics.

w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 23 Nov 2006 22:46 GMT
>OK fusion IS the wrong word.  In physiology we talk about fusion as a
>very specific condition of binocularity where the foveas are
>simultaneously "locked on" an object, which allows the very special
>ability to achieve 3-D vision or stereopsis where the brain can compute
>the disparity between the two images and accurately determine the
>distance of the object from the eyes.

Over a small area, like that of a stereo photograph, or the field of
view through binoculars, I could definitely achieve fusion. For an
object that was part of a continuous real world scene, other cues
interfered, and the binocular disparity information about the object
would get mentally divided up among disjointed facets, like a cubist
painting.

If I chose to attend to the "normal-looking" but flat information, I
saw just what a 2D camera would see. If I chose to attend to the
spatial information despite its illogical structure, I saw something
so much like Picasso's cubism that I'm convinced he saw like I do.

>>I've had several people report profound disturbance with how they see
>>my eyes aligned, and I've gradually learned to avoid certain "spaces"
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>it, you should be easily able to see it in a mirror, by moving your head
>to various positions of gaze.

I've tried several times to quantify that, both with mirrors and
video. Do you remember the part of my first post where I described
how, when I was wearing negative lenses, the motion of the smaller
objects seen through the lenses, relative to their slower motion as
they passed into peripheral vision, was a major problem for me? What
seems to be happening, even after many years with no lenses, is that
remnants of those distortions of angular space are still in the
feedback loops that orient my eyes.

If I look straight ahead, and then begin turning my head to one side
while looking back at my eyes in the mirror, my eyes track well until
the one turned toward my nose gets near the point where the inner edge
of a spectacle lens would interfere with its view. Then it seems to
dive too rapidly into the corner of my eye, while the angular motion
of the other eye slows way down and finally almost stops.

>>I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought
>>a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>wide pupillary distance, but I don't understand your last sentence
>above.  What spacing is too wide?

The pupillary distance of the binoculars when set to the previously
optimal width. But...  After just spending a long time studying them,
I think that conclusion is bogus. It looks like they have been damaged
internally somehow. If I put my eyes right up to them, I can fuse the
images, but if I gradually move them farther away from my eyes, it
becomes obvious that the two sides no longer point in the same
direction. The exit rays diverge by over an inch per foot. If this is
the result of damage since I filed the stops, it would explain why I
now need the two sides about 1.5mm closer together.

I gather from
<http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=416>
that the optical axes of binoculars should be parallel. I wouldn't be
able to achieve their first step, of keeping the same star in both
fields of view as I move away from the eyepiece. I've found the screws
on my binoculars, so I guess I'll try adjusting them. Not much to lose
at this point.

Sorry for the distraction - nothing is ever as simple as it seems...  

>For stereo, the only one that I know of that doesn't require patient
>reporting is the Howard Dolman test, where the patient tries to align
>two pegs in a box where all monocular clues are removed.  He doesn't
>report what he sees, but either can align them (in which case stereo is
>present) or cannot, (in which case it is absent or defective).

Sounds appropriate. I suspect I'd fail, since I can easily adapt to
gross deviations. I've been content to use these uncollimated
binoculars without realizing what was wrong. I can go from crossed-eye
to same-eye direct view stereo images at will.

>More
>commonly, we use vectographic tests that do require interpretation from
>the patient, but are pretty reliable except where a person has learned
>to identify "closer" targets simply by detecting their slight offset on
>the background.

I'm very good at slight offsets. I once called a 3/8" sag along a 30'
roofline to the attention of my contractor from the ground in front of
the house. He thought I was crazy, but when I insisted, he verified it
exactly with a string line.

>>If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite
>>its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>developing some stereo.  It would take some careful testing to determine
>if you are.  If not, it's as you said, maybe metaphysics not optics.

Seems to me the best criteria for 3D vision is the subjective
experience of solidity and depth. Of course if you don't have it, you
may not know what you are missing, so I see why reports are suspect.

Loren
Dan Abel - 18 Nov 2006 18:08 GMT
> > Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size
> and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving.
>
> I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of
> disorientation is immediate and disturbing.  It's scary to imagine
> driving without stereo vision.

> Hmmm.   I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his
> eyes at that time.   Maybe I should ask.  I'm having trouble imagining
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder?   Neither of us
> could ever figure out what happened.

Now you're getting scary.

:-(

Both my wife and I see out of only one eye.  We can drive just fine.  
The kind of depth perception that requires two eyes doesn't work well at
longer distances, so doesn't affect driving that much.

But we can both use a camera just fine.  Your colleague's inability to
take a picture is something different, and I wonder how it affects his
driving.  Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a
viewfinder?

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

William Stacy - 18 Nov 2006 18:24 GMT
>Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a viewfinder?
>  

If they use a viewfinder, they must use their "good" eye, or close their
good eye if viewing with the amblyopic eye (why would they do that?  I
don't have a clue).  I've run into this more with shooters of guns than
shooters of pictures, and it is a real problem for those who are, e.g.
right handed and left "eyed".  You could get a tooth knocked out trying
to aim a rifle or shotgun trying to "cross over".  They even make
expensive left handed guns for such people.
Dan Abel - 18 Nov 2006 21:40 GMT
> >Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a viewfinder?
> >  
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> to aim a rifle or shotgun trying to "cross over".  They even make
> expensive left handed guns for such people.

I've given up shooting.  With cataract in both eyes, besides the retinal
detachments, my dominant eye has shifted sides way too many times, and I
am now "left eyed" and right handed.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Liz Day - 20 Nov 2006 18:30 GMT
> ... I've watched him use a camera and be unable to tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder or not.   The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the  edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't  pointing at it).

>I don't see how it relates to lack of stereo.

Well....  If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who
does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??

Allen?  You say you don't see simultaneously out of both eyes.  Tell me
more what this is like.
When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same
point, I see double images.   Do you see double images of everything?
If so, don't you have to tune one of them out at any given time?

[But]
>Using the non-dominant eye wouldn't trash your ability to frame and compose a picture.
>Your colleague's inability to take a picture is something different, and I wonder how it affects his driving.

So do I!!!   I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure it's
OK to drive.   Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't see
very well, or is in some way confused, but I don't know *what* it is
that he isn't seeing.  It worries me.

> [In people who didn't acquire stereopsis]  there may be a muscle imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular vision.

If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring
stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking
at them?   That their eyes are pointing in slightly different
directions?   Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside
observer?

Thanks,
Liz
Neil Brooks - 20 Nov 2006 19:23 GMT
> If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring
> stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking
> at them?   That their eyes are pointing in slightly different
> directions?   Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside
> observer?

I'll speak from personal experience here ... having had three
strabismus surgeries AND vision therapy, but becoming more EXotropic
now.

It depends.  They could well maintain alignment via their fusion
mechanism and look like they have straight eyes until something breaks
down their alignment (fatigue, alcohol, a "cover test" used to elicit
alignment issues in an exam setting, etc.).  They could also be
perfectly straight when looking in ONE direction, but all over the
proverbial map when looking in another.

I look at photos of me and my eyes look pretty darned straight, but ...
especially in my case ... it takes a huge amount of autonomic
(involuntary) effort to keep them this way.  This, alone, can cause
symptoms....

By the way, I drive fine, just took something like 1,500 beautiful
pictures in about nine different countries, on vacation, and can even
parallel park reasonably well.  Don't throw the ball my way, though.
Please.
A Lieberma - 20 Nov 2006 23:11 GMT
"Neil Brooks" <neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1164050602.942250.210010
@j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> By the way, I drive fine, just took something like 1,500 beautiful
> pictures in about nine different countries, on vacation, and can even
> parallel park reasonably well.  Don't throw the ball my way, though.
> Please.

Why is this Neil?  If you can drive / parallel park a car, you don't have
eye hand coordination to catch a ball?

I don't have problems catching a ball or even hitting one myself.  

A Babe Ruth or Nolan Ryan I am not, but for your basic pick up games, I am
able to hold my own.

Allen
Neil Brooks - 21 Nov 2006 03:53 GMT
> "Neil Brooks" <neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1164050602.942250.210010
> @j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Why is this Neil?  If you can drive / parallel park a car, you don't have
> eye hand coordination to catch a ball?

No simple answer, but best characterized as this: something tossed to
me, with a decent amount of arc and minimal velocity: good chance of
catching it;

A line drive: I'm getting beaned ... a virtual certainty.

> I don't have problems catching a ball or even hitting one myself.
>
> A Babe Ruth or Nolan Ryan I am not, but for your basic pick up games, I am
> able to hold my own.

One of the issues that may come heavily into play: your alignment may
have been =stable= since just post-operative.  In my case, the
strabismus is nonconcomitant (varying in every direction in which I
look) AND has been altered with the three surgeries that I've had, with
vision therapy interventions, AND with age.  So ... the neurologic
whatever-it-is that handles these issues probably never had enough
stable data to develop the right algorithm.

I seem to recall that you could say--with some certainty--that a person
whose eyes turned OUT nearly always threw the ball (say: basketball)
short of the hoop, while a person whose eyes turned IN nearly always
over-threw the ball.

Something like that....

As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my
accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to
stabilize the angles.
Mike Tyner - 21 Nov 2006 04:57 GMT
> As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my
> accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to
> stabilize the angles.

Sometimes presbyopia helps, freeing up accommodative convergence without
adding blur.

-MT
Neil Brooks - 21 Nov 2006 05:47 GMT
> > As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my
> > accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> -MT

This is actually really encouraging, Mike.  I've been wondering
whether--when accommodative amplitudes fade--accommodative
_convergence_ would remain relatively unaffected.

I _assumed_ so based on knowing that 80 year olds can still converge.

Thanks.
A Lieberma - 20 Nov 2006 23:08 GMT
> Well....  If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but
> who does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??

Can't resist.... the same thing you do????

> Allen?  You say you don't see simultaneously out of both eyes.  Tell
> me more what this is like.

Pretty much seeing out of one eye, but lesser peripheral vision should I
close one eye.  If I switch the focus of attention in the way I look, the
image will jump a little to the right or left, other then that nothing
different I'd suspect then what you see????

> When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same
> point, I see double images.   Do you see double images of everything?
> If so, don't you have to tune one of them out at any given time?

I don't get the benefits of double vision as you describe above.  My eyes
truly don't work together vision wise.  If I look right and left, they
both move simultaneously, but if I look right, I end up looking out of
the right eye, and if I look left, I look out of the left eye.  I notice
a slight jump in perception as what I see jumps from one eye to the other
eye as I shift my eyes to the right or left.

Other then seeing "simulated double vision" via the computer, when I look
outside the monitor, it's only one of a kind, no double anything.

> So do I!!!   I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure
> it's OK to drive.   Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't
> see very well, or is in some way confused, but I don't know *what* it
> is that he isn't seeing.  It worries me.

Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo vision.  
Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain adjusts
accordingly.  Again, what I don't have, I don't miss.

If the car in front of me is getting larger, it's a no brainer I'd better
be working the brakes.  Flying does add a third dimension in which people
seemed surprise I am able to master.   Not only you have to gauge right
and left, but up and down too!  This obviously becomes more critical in
the landing stage so to compensate for my lack of stereoscopic vision, I
pick a spot on the windshield and aim that spot for the runway numbers.  
If the spot moves up from the numbers, that means my plane is dropping
faster then I need to be.  If the spot moves down from the numbers of the
runway, that means I am staying aloft longer then I need to and have to
adjust the plane accordingly.

I don't have the ability to look out those 3D glasses, my eyes don't join
what ever is suppose to join together, either I see out of the right or
left, but the two images though shall not meet in the middle.

> If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring
> stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking
> at them?   That their eyes are pointing in slightly different
> directions?   Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside
> observer?

In my case, after surgical correction, you would never know I didn't have
binocular vision.  The alignment issue is seperate especially after
surgery.

Allen
Scott Seidman - 21 Nov 2006 01:08 GMT
> Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo
> vision.  Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain
> adjusts accordingly.  Again, what I don't have, I don't miss.

There are a ton of cues for distance listed at
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~msl/courses/2223/notes.8.pdf.

Stereopsis becomes less useful at distances above about three feet, which
is surprisingly close.  

For the one-eyed individual, the bigger problem is the lack of visual
field.  I suspect that two-eyed people without stereopsis often don't know
of their problem-- possibly there are more in ignorant bliss than there are
those in the know.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Ann - 21 Nov 2006 19:46 GMT
>> Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo
>> vision.  Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>of their problem-- possibly there are more in ignorant bliss than there are
>those in the know.

This one eyed person can't even reach out for a door handle and get it
first time.  Don't you have problems like that?  I can't shake hands
with anyone properly either.  I just hold my hand out and make them do
the finding, it works better that way.

I have also found that it isn't quite true that stereoscopic vision
isn't used at distance.  Many times I can't tell where something is in
relation to something else while nobody else seems to have quite the
same problem.

Ann
Mike Tyner - 21 Nov 2006 20:11 GMT
> I have also found that it isn't quite true that stereoscopic vision
> isn't used at distance.  Many times I can't tell where something is in
> relation to something else while nobody else seems to have quite the
> same problem.

Stereopsis doesn't quit working when you focus far away, else nobody could
appreciate 3-D movies. The geometry of triangles simply makes disparities
more useful up close.

Further away we depend more on relative size, relative motion and
atmospheric cues than on stereopsis.

-MT
A Lieberma - 19 Nov 2006 00:21 GMT
>> Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative
>> size
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> your head back and forth like a mongoose.
> <8-(

Like Mike Tyner says, you don't miss what you don't have.

I don't have stereoscopic vision and miserably flunk the eye test that
has the objects placed in a different position when looked out of both
eyes vs one eye when looking through the view finder.

I drive, fly a plane (FAA requires a vision test every two years for my
class of license), climb ladders and all sorts of good stuff like that.

I don't have any problems with peripheral vision, just that I don't see
simultaneously out of both eyes.

Like you, if I close one eye, I do feel something is amiss, but not to
the point of disorientation.  This happens whether I use my dominant or
non dominant eye.

My eyes were crossed when growing up, and I had that surgically
corrected, but that did not change the stereoscopic vision issues I have.

Allen
jerzger - 18 Nov 2006 15:14 GMT
Interesting question. I'm in the same boat as your neighbor. As a teen
I was warned by my eye doctor to be very careful driving due to having
no depth perception. To be honest, I never knew the different. I'm 55
now and have an accident free driving record, so somehow, we are able
to drive safely. Hope this helps to reassure you about your neighbors
driving :-)  You'd probably have more to worry about if I was your
neighbor because now I'm also driving with cataracts!  :-)

> A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
> sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> cheers,
> LD
William Stacy - 18 Nov 2006 17:35 GMT
Stereopsis is really not needed for ordinary driving.  Only parking in
close quarters does it become helpful in avoiding scrapes.  Most people
who don't have stereo do quite well utilizing parallax.   Same thing for
pilots.  Lots of one-eyed pilots, and stereo is only needed if they are
flying close formation like the Blue Angles.

w.stacy, o.d.

>Interesting question. I'm in the same boat as your neighbor. As a teen
>I was warned by my eye doctor to be very careful driving due to having
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>  
Liz Day - 21 Nov 2006 00:36 GMT
>> If someone has enough strabismus... can you see this by looking at them?

>It depends.  They could well maintain alignment via their fusion
mechanism and look like they have straight eyes until something breaks
down their alignment (fatigue, alcohol, a "cover test" used to elicit
alignment issues in an exam setting, etc.).  They could also be
perfectly straight when looking in ONE direction, but all over the
proverbial map when looking in another.

OK, thanks.

>> If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??

>Can't resist.... the same thing you do????

ACK!  How would I know?!   I'm realizing now not to be too sure of
anything.   I had thought everything I saw was so "normal"...... hah.
What a confusing mess.
:-(   :-(

>> You don't see simultaneously out of both eyes.  Tell me more what this is like.

Pretty much seeing out of one eye, but lesser peripheral vision should
I
close one eye.  If I switch the focus of attention in the way I look,
the
image will jump a little to the right or left....

> When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same
> point, I see double images.   Do you see double images of everything?

I don't get the benefits of double vision as you describe above.  My
eyes
truly don't work together vision wise.  If I look right and left, they
both move simultaneously, but if I look right, I end up looking out of
the right eye, and if I look left, I look out of the left eye.  I
notice
a slight jump in perception as what I see jumps from one eye to the
other
eye as I shift my eyes to the right or left.

It sounds as though you can somehow switch your brain "off" off the
view through the eye you're not using.   As though you can shift from
one eye being totally dominant to the other totally dominant.   True?

> I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure it's OK to drive.   Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't see very well....

>Driving is NOT affected by lack of stereo vision... the brain adjusts accordingly.

I understand this now.   See my next post.  :-(

LD
A Lieberma - 21 Nov 2006 03:03 GMT
>>> If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who does
>>> have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> What a confusing mess.
>:-(   :-(

Hey Liz,

Just messing with you.  We both SEE the same thing.  

What we don't see is the quality difference *smile*.  You see the same tree
as I would.  However our brains may interpret the tree in a different
image.  But we both see the same tree.  Make more sense?

> It sounds as though you can somehow switch your brain "off" off the
> view through the eye you're not using.   As though you can shift from
> one eye being totally dominant to the other totally dominant.   True?

Yes, one eye is "always dominant" though may not be my dominant eye at all
times.  For example.

If I look straight ahead, my right eye is the dominant eye and my left eye
is along for the ride.

If I look right, I see no image jump.
If I look to the left, guestimating about 45 degrees or so, I will see a
slight image jump to the left.  You can see this by pointing your finger
out, and close your left eye.  Then open your left eye and your finger will
be pointed slightly to a different point.  This is what my brain interprets
during this "transition" that is not so seamless I guess.

> I understand this now.   See my next post.  :-(

Has not hit my newserver server just yet....

Allen
Liz Day - 21 Nov 2006 08:32 GMT
> > I understand this now.   See my next post.  :-(
>
> Has not hit my newserver server just yet....

Possible you can email me privately?   I can't get through to you via
this group.

thanks,
Liz
Toller - 21 Nov 2006 21:22 GMT
>A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception.  He is in his
> sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life.  He has
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Especially if they have been successfully driving a car their whole
> life.   Possible?   I would have thought that wasn't very safe.

I have no depth perception because I don't see out of my left eye.  My
vision is normal in both eyes, but my right eye is so dominant that the left
image is largely ignored.
If I try hard, I can force it; but normally nothing.

I can't say I miss it; clues are so abundant I am not sure it matters.
Liz Day - 22 Nov 2006 08:16 GMT
After learning how stereoscopic vision works and is acquired (thank you
all!), I talked to my buddy again.

Briefly, it appears that he had good depth perception until recently.
Whatever is wrong seems to have occurred after one of two cataract
operations.

If so, he may not have developed the alternative visual coping skills
found in those of you who are mono from birth.  Given the way people
drive around here, I worry.

Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see
depth and distance?   Is there any help?

Thanks....

LD
Dan Abel - 22 Nov 2006 16:17 GMT
> After learning how stereoscopic vision works and is acquired (thank you
> all!), I talked to my buddy again.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see
> depth and distance?   Is there any help?

Without going into the details, yes.  I had this problem for five years,
the time between my cataract surgeries.  However, I knew this was
coming, and it was my choice.

Again, without knowing the details of your buddy's eyes, it is possible
that the second cataract surgery will fix the problem.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

William Stacy - 23 Nov 2006 00:31 GMT
>Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see
>depth and distance?   Is there any help?
>
>  

Yes.  and Yes.  Hopefully, he is correctible to close to 20/20 in each
eye.  If so, and he once had stereo, he should be able to have it
again.  If  he can't get 20/20 for some reason on one or both eyes, his
stereo may be permanently reduced.

w.stacy, o.d.
 
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