Medical Forum / General / Vision / November 2006
no depth perception??
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Liz Day - 17 Nov 2006 19:36 GMT A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has always been nearsighted, but not drastically so, and wears glasses to correct this anyway.
How is this possible? If someone has two eyes both with (corrected to) 20/20 vision, how could they not also have depth perception? Especially if they have been successfully driving a car their whole life. Possible? I would have thought that wasn't very safe.
cheers, LD
Mike Tyner - 17 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT >A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his > sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has > always been nearsighted, but not drastically so, and wears glasses to > correct this anyway. Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving.
Normally, we also have a special stereo sense called "stereopsis," a delicate neurological discrimination of the differences between two images perceived from slightly different positions in space. Vision physiologists call it "retinal disparity." It contributes to "depth perception" even far away, but it is most effective up close, in arm's reach. It's how you appreciate random-dot stereograms and the Viewmaster.
Stereopsis isn't present at birth. Both eyes must learn to work together, during a "critical period" in early childhood when the brain actually grows connections to enable us to discriminate retinal disparity. Beyond six, or ten, if the brain has never had good, simultaneous input from both eyes, the ability doesn't develop. It's almost unheard-of to develop stereopsis after age 10 or 12. ("Almost" because there are famous stories (google "Stereo Sue") but many think they actually started development as an infant.)
So your friend can be totally lacking in stereopsis but fully competent to drive. If a subtle condition (eg small-angle esotropia) deprived him of complete binocular fusion as a child, stereopsis won't develop. All he gets from a 3-D movie is double images and confusion, and he might not make it as a fighter pilot.
It's more common than you might think, and it's one reason that patching amblyopic kids is not as effective as patching combined with vision training.
-MT
Salmon Egg - 18 Nov 2006 01:58 GMT On 11/17/06 11:36 AM, in article 1163792208.624222.117340@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Liz Day" <beebuzz@kiva.net> wrote:
> A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his > sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cheers, > LD Haven't you ever met someone who appears to have excellent hearing but comprehends almost nothing?
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
Mark A - 18 Nov 2006 05:25 GMT >A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his > sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cheers, > LD Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his bad eye.
Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a muscle imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular vision.
Liz Day - 18 Nov 2006 07:57 GMT > Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving.
I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of disorientation is immediate and disturbing. It's scary to imagine driving without stereo vision. YIKES!! I suppose you could move your head back and forth like a mongoose. <8-(
>Normally, we also have a special stereo sense called "stereopsis," a delicate neurological discrimination of the differences between two images perceived from slightly different positions in space.
Right.
>Stereopsis isn't present at birth. Both eyes must learn to work together, during a "critical period" in early childhood
Makes sense.
> Beyond six, or ten, if the brain has never had good, simultaneous input from both eyes, the ability doesn't develop. Hmmm. I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his eyes at that time. Maybe I should ask. I'm having trouble imagining how someone could not develop this "natural" ability, or what things would look like if your eyes didn't work in synch.
Yet I believe him, as I've watched him use a camera and be unable to tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder or not. The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't pointing at it). Could this be a dominant-eye thing? Perhaps the non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder? Neither of us could ever figure out what happened.
> If a subtle condition (eg small-angle esotropia) deprived him of complete binocular fusion as a child, stereopsis won't develop. Small-angle esotropia?
>Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his bad eye. Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a muscle imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular vision.
Can you say more? How would you tell if that was happening?
thanks, LD
Mike Tyner - 18 Nov 2006 14:50 GMT > I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of > disorientation is immediate and disturbing. It's scary to imagine > driving without stereo vision. Yes, but you haven't had a lifetime to adapt. Many of them don't know anything is missing.
> I suppose you could move your > head back and forth like a mongoose. > <8-( Sometimes they do. They also thread a needle differently.
> Hmmm. I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his > eyes at that time. Well, that's not true. If he lacks stereo, there was most likely a binocular vision problem in youth.
> Yet I believe him, as I've watched him use a camera and be unable to > tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder > or not. The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the > center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the > edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't > pointing at it). I don't see how it relates to lack of stereo.
> Could this be a dominant-eye thing? Perhaps the > non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder? Neither of us > could ever figure out what happened. I can't either. Using the non-dominant eye wouldn't trash your ability to frame and compose a picture.
> Small-angle esotropia? Google it. It's a subtle eye turn that isn't obvious.
>>Maybe he has amblyopia (lazy eye) and only has peripheral vision in his >>bad eye. > Even if each eye is individually corrected to 20/20, there may be a > muscle > imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular > vision. Like a small-angle esotropia. BTW - by definition, amblyopia means vision is less than 20/20. Amblyopia can be treated but stereo doesn't always follow.
> Can you say more? How would you tell if that was happening? By testing stereo vision. :)
-MT
jerzger - 18 Nov 2006 15:37 GMT Wondering if this might apply to me. Is testing stereo vision something you can test on your own, something you ask your eye doctor to do, something they automatically do during an eye exam? If you don't have stereo vision, are you more likely to do well in correcting cataracts with one iol for distance and the other for close up or doesn't it matter.
> By testing stereo vision. :) > > -MT Loren Amelang - 18 Nov 2006 22:08 GMT >Wondering if this might apply to me. Is testing stereo vision something >you can test on your own, something you ask your eye doctor to do, >something they automatically do during an eye exam? Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates you learned stereopsis during the "critical period" in your youth, but it does not necessarily indicate that you use binocular fusion when viewing your daily life. I've always been able to see these contrived images in 3D.
I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive system that divided my visual world into discrete bits - each tagged with a preferred eye, perspective, size, and location in a maplike flat universe. I knew I didn't see like other people, because I remembered the process of losing binocular fusion, but I had completely forgotten what the actual experience of 3D was like.
Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis back, I'm finding height is spectacularly, viscerally scary - in the same places where it used to be just logical information.
Loren
William Stacy, O.D. - 19 Nov 2006 20:21 GMT > Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot > stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates > you learned stereopsis during the "critical period" in your youth, but > it does not necessarily indicate that you use binocular fusion when > viewing your daily life. I've always been able to see these contrived > images in 3D. You can call them contrived, but they are legitimate measures of stereopsis, unless you've learned how to get around them without binocular fusion. This trick can be done for some tests, but not others (the ones that are truly random dot style). And just getting around the test does not mean you "learned stereopsis".
Stereopsis is unique to binocular fusion, and ACCURATE stereo (down to the level of 30 seconds of arc) is not possible without "normal" bifoveal fixation (coupled with normal or non-anomalous retinal correspondence, and roughly normal acuity in both eyes).
And stereopsis is only "learned" in the sense that it develops along with normal retinal correspondence. It is not something you can "teach" to someone who doesn't possess binocularity unless you can correct the underlying defect, and it is certainly not something you can "unlearn" without depriving the person of a normal binocularity he/she once had.
> I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings > in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > remembered the process of losing binocular fusion, but I had > completely forgotten what the actual experience of 3D was like. This is not making sense to me. For one thing, exactly how did you "lose" binocular fusion? Did you lose an eye, or develop a constant strabismus, or what?
> Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on > roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis > back, How are you getting it back, and has it been measured clinically?
w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 21 Nov 2006 07:26 GMT >> Passing a contrived test, or being able to appreciate random dot >> stereograms, Magic Eye images, or a View Master, probably indicates [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >(the ones that are truly random dot style). And just getting around the >test does not mean you "learned stereopsis". I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones, without resorting to any tricks. My point was that even though my stereopsis capability with such images was normal, I did not maintain binocular fusion when looking at the "real world".
>Stereopsis is unique to binocular fusion, and ACCURATE stereo (down to >the level of 30 seconds of arc) is not possible without "normal" >bifoveal fixation (coupled with normal or non-anomalous retinal >correspondence, and roughly normal acuity in both eyes). What I'm recovering now is far from your "accurate" level of detail, but the feeling of 3D space, even though it lacks detail, is dramatic.
>And stereopsis is only "learned" in the sense that it develops along >with normal retinal correspondence. It is not something you can "teach" >to someone who doesn't possess binocularity unless you can correct the >underlying defect, and it is certainly not something you can "unlearn" >without depriving the person of a normal binocularity he/she once had. I totally agree about stereopsis. I must have had relatively normal vision in early childhood. And I was certainly deprived of normal binocularity starting around age eight. But I somehow maintained the ability to view stereo photographs and stereograms.
>> I'm only now beginning to be able to experience my actual surroundings >> in 3D, after fifty years of living with an elaborate and compulsive [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >"lose" binocular fusion? Did you lose an eye, or develop a constant >strabismus, or what? Following a failed vision screening in second grade, I was prescribed bifocals (plano with a +.75 add, to start) which were supposed to prevent myopia. I suspect now that the centers were wildly wrong, and the fitting was miserable. Wearing them was head-splittingly painful, but both the doctor and my parents refused to listen to my complaints, and I was forced to wear them during every waking moment. (I've since met other victims of that bifocal plus experiment who smashed every pair of lenses until their parents gave up, but none who tried to live with them.)
I could not read at all through the bifocal part, but my parents had been prompted to force me to, so I learned how to sneak one eye just above the dividing line while still appearing to have my head and book in the required position. That was just the beginning of a series of different adaptations to different lenses, with more and more minus on top, but seemingly no better fit.
Through all of this no one ever explained to me what I should be doing in order to make the "plus lens" theory work, and nobody ever listened when I said my glasses hurt my eyes and brain, or didn't fit.
Then hard contacts became available, and the story was they would prevent myopia, so the bifocals were yanked away along with the separate space where I had done all of my reading for years, and I entered a totally different world of visual distortion and poor fit. By college I ended up -5.25, with miserable oblique astigmatism, and finally just threw the lenses all away cold turkey.
>> Just as an example, I've always been strangely unafraid of climbing on >> roofs, trees, and antenna towers. Now that I'm getting some stereopsis >> back, > >How are you getting it back, and has it been measured clinically? It has been a long slow process of becoming aware of the visual cues that were preventing "normal binocularity", and consciously practising undoing them. For instance, today's exercise has been to force myself, while turning my head toward the right, to "anchor" myself to the earth via the image in the part of my right eye's field of view that is blocked from the left eye by my nose.
While wearing negative lenses, the view through the binocular part of my field of view was tiny relative to my peripheral vision, so a small head rotation caused a lot of "world space" to disappear behind my nose quickly. When it re-appeared outside the lenses and behind my nose in the peripheral area it was much larger and slower-moving (in the angular sense), but I knew it was the same scene and learned to "create mental space" to take up the difference. (Eventually I created so much of this space that the nose boundaries were projected to infinity, and then beyond infinity. I lived most of my life feeling like I had backed out of the universe, back through the last shell of a pre-Copernican heaven, and the universe was contained in a roughly four foot bubble suspended in front of my eyes.)
For most of my life the trustworthy edge of the peripheral boundary formed by my nose was the binocular side - the peripheral side was like a "space pump" where the sizes and angular dimensions of objects were completely flexible. So today I've been learning to mentally hold the size of objects in my right peripheral view constant as they approach and then appear beyond the nose boundary in binocular view. The experience is still unsettling, somewhat on the level of an LSD trip. Learning to hold the left side "solid" was comparatively easy. To make this remaining side solid I am forced to resolve my sense of the size and location of my own body.
I'm reminded of the discussion in some of the later replies about catching a ball. Early in my adventures in lens wearing, the issue with ball sports was just to be able to track the ball fast enough in the trustworthy central binocular vision area to know where the ball was. As my sense of peripheral space became more disconnected from my central vision, the issue was more with feeling where my body was in relation to the ball and the ball field. I could tell where the ball was relative to the other players, but its relation to my own body was about as real and immediate as that of a ball on television. My body didn't even feel like it was on the same field.
No, none of this has been measured clinically. I'm not sure it even relates to anything the optical professions measure. When I abandoned lenses and started my self-directed journey, I thought the problem was with my eyes. Now I'm convinced it is much deeper in my brain, and bordering on metaphysics.
Loren
William Stacy, O.D. - 21 Nov 2006 20:40 GMT > I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always > been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones, > without resorting to any tricks. My point was that even though my > stereopsis capability with such images was normal, I did not maintain > binocular fusion when looking at the "real world". I doubt that. You are implying that under the totally artificial and difficult to fuse conditions of random dot stereograms, you do just fine, but under the relatively easy conditions of real world, you lose fusion. How do you know you lose fusion? I would expect you to answer that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of alignment with the other whereupon you get instant double vision, or possibly you have supression or anomalous retinal correspondence. Your own self diagnosing below does not support a condition of losing binocular fusion. Those glasses you had were not sufficient to break your binocularity, by any stretch.
> What I'm recovering now is far from your "accurate" level of detail, > but the feeling of 3D space, even though it lacks detail, is dramatic. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > binocularity starting around age eight. But I somehow maintained the > ability to view stereo photographs and stereograms.
> Following a failed vision screening in second grade, I was prescribed > bifocals (plano with a +.75 add, to start) which were supposed to [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > with my eyes. Now I'm convinced it is much deeper in my brain, and > bordering on metaphysics. Rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really quite easy to do. While you might have some metaphysical or even psychological problems, those are not in the realm of binocularity and stereopsis.
w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 22 Nov 2006 03:44 GMT >> I wasn't suggesting any kind of cheating on the tests - I have always >> been able to see such images, even the totally random-dot ones, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fine, but under the relatively easy conditions of real world, you lose >fusion. The difference is that stereograms and images are small, they fit easily in the center of the binocular vision area that is evenly affected by lenses. The real world wraps around and includes one's body, and crosses many tricky physical and conceptual boundaries.
>How do you know you lose fusion? Perhaps fusion is the wrong word. I definitely did not experience the same sensation of 3D solidity when looking at the real world that I could get from stereo images, and that I'm now recovering. I was often aware of which single eye I was depending on at any particular moment. Closing that eye would produce an uncomfortable jump as the other one took over.
> I would expect you to answer >that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of >alignment with the other I've had several people report profound disturbance with how they see my eyes aligned, and I've gradually learned to avoid certain "spaces" that would trigger their anger, but if there is a misalignment, most people are content to ignore it.
I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum interpupillary distance was too narrow to allow me to see the full field of view through both sides simultaneously. I actually filed down the stops until they fit my eyes exactly. In the last few weeks since I've started experiencing 3D views of the real world, I find that spacing is too wide. I can't imagine an explanation...
> whereupon you get instant double vision, or >possibly you have supression or anomalous retinal correspondence. I rarely noticed any problem with double vision, unless I intentionally tried to connect central and peripheral vision, or to interfere with subconscious eye preference cues. .
> Your >own self diagnosing below does not support a condition of losing >binocular fusion. Those glasses you had were not sufficient to break >your binocularity, by any stretch. They were one factor among many, but they were the obvious physical one.
>Rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the >presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really >quite easy to do. How? Are there any methods that don't involve the patient's report of what they see?
If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of 3D solidity that I'm rediscovering?
Loren
William Stacy - 23 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT >Perhaps fusion is the wrong word. I definitely did not experience the >same sensation of 3D solidity when looking at the real world that I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > OK fusion IS the wrong word. In physiology we talk about fusion as a very specific condition of binocularity where the foveas are simultaneously "locked on" an object, which allows the very special ability to achieve 3-D vision or stereopsis where the brain can compute the disparity between the two images and accurately determine the distance of the object from the eyes.
>>I would expect you to answer >>that one eye obviously turns abnormally in, out, up or down, out of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That sounds like non-comitant strabismus (where one eye is more misaligned in one direction of gaze and less in another). If you have it, you should be easily able to see it in a mirror, by moving your head to various positions of gaze.
>I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought >a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >spacing is too wide. > It's easy to understand the binoculars not accommodating your presumably wide pupillary distance, but I don't understand your last sentence above. What spacing is too wide?
>>rest assured that the optometric profession can readily measure the >>presence and/or absence of binocular fusion and stereopsis. It is really [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >what they see? > Yes there are. Simple cover/uncover of one eye while closely observing the other eye for movement will rule out or in strabismus. The angle of any deviation can be measured fairly accurately with loose prisms.
For stereo, the only one that I know of that doesn't require patient reporting is the Howard Dolman test, where the patient tries to align two pegs in a box where all monocular clues are removed. He doesn't report what he sees, but either can align them (in which case stereo is present) or cannot, (in which case it is absent or defective). More commonly, we use vectographic tests that do require interpretation from the patient, but are pretty reliable except where a person has learned to identify "closer" targets simply by detecting their slight offset on the background.
>If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite >its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of >3D solidity that I'm rediscovering? > > Not sure, but if you are fusing binocularly even part time, you may be developing some stereo. It would take some careful testing to determine if you are. If not, it's as you said, maybe metaphysics not optics.
w.stacy, o.d.
Loren Amelang - 23 Nov 2006 22:46 GMT >OK fusion IS the wrong word. In physiology we talk about fusion as a >very specific condition of binocularity where the foveas are >simultaneously "locked on" an object, which allows the very special >ability to achieve 3-D vision or stereopsis where the brain can compute >the disparity between the two images and accurately determine the >distance of the object from the eyes. Over a small area, like that of a stereo photograph, or the field of view through binoculars, I could definitely achieve fusion. For an object that was part of a continuous real world scene, other cues interfered, and the binocular disparity information about the object would get mentally divided up among disjointed facets, like a cubist painting.
If I chose to attend to the "normal-looking" but flat information, I saw just what a 2D camera would see. If I chose to attend to the spatial information despite its illogical structure, I saw something so much like Picasso's cubism that I'm convinced he saw like I do.
>>I've had several people report profound disturbance with how they see >>my eyes aligned, and I've gradually learned to avoid certain "spaces" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it, you should be easily able to see it in a mirror, by moving your head >to various positions of gaze. I've tried several times to quantify that, both with mirrors and video. Do you remember the part of my first post where I described how, when I was wearing negative lenses, the motion of the smaller objects seen through the lenses, relative to their slower motion as they passed into peripheral vision, was a major problem for me? What seems to be happening, even after many years with no lenses, is that remnants of those distortions of angular space are still in the feedback loops that orient my eyes.
If I look straight ahead, and then begin turning my head to one side while looking back at my eyes in the mirror, my eyes track well until the one turned toward my nose gets near the point where the inner edge of a spectacle lens would interfere with its view. Then it seems to dive too rapidly into the corner of my eye, while the angular motion of the other eye slows way down and finally almost stops.
>>I have noticed one curious more objective phenomenon, though. I bought >>a pair of binoculars many years ago, and found their maximum [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >wide pupillary distance, but I don't understand your last sentence >above. What spacing is too wide? The pupillary distance of the binoculars when set to the previously optimal width. But... After just spending a long time studying them, I think that conclusion is bogus. It looks like they have been damaged internally somehow. If I put my eyes right up to them, I can fuse the images, but if I gradually move them farther away from my eyes, it becomes obvious that the two sides no longer point in the same direction. The exit rays diverge by over an inch per foot. If this is the result of damage since I filed the stops, it would explain why I now need the two sides about 1.5mm closer together.
I gather from <http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=416> that the optical axes of binoculars should be parallel. I wouldn't be able to achieve their first step, of keeping the same star in both fields of view as I move away from the eyepiece. I've found the screws on my binoculars, so I guess I'll try adjusting them. Not much to lose at this point.
Sorry for the distraction - nothing is ever as simple as it seems...
>For stereo, the only one that I know of that doesn't require patient >reporting is the Howard Dolman test, where the patient tries to align >two pegs in a box where all monocular clues are removed. He doesn't >report what he sees, but either can align them (in which case stereo is >present) or cannot, (in which case it is absent or defective). Sounds appropriate. I suspect I'd fail, since I can easily adapt to gross deviations. I've been content to use these uncollimated binoculars without realizing what was wrong. I can go from crossed-eye to same-eye direct view stereo images at will.
>More >commonly, we use vectographic tests that do require interpretation from >the patient, but are pretty reliable except where a person has learned >to identify "closer" targets simply by detecting their slight offset on >the background. I'm very good at slight offsets. I once called a 3/8" sag along a 30' roofline to the attention of my contractor from the ground in front of the house. He thought I was crazy, but when I insisted, he verified it exactly with a string line.
>>If what I previously experienced was binocular and stereopsis, despite >>its obvious flatness, what would you call the subjective experience of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >developing some stereo. It would take some careful testing to determine >if you are. If not, it's as you said, maybe metaphysics not optics. Seems to me the best criteria for 3D vision is the subjective experience of solidity and depth. Of course if you don't have it, you may not know what you are missing, so I see why reports are suspect.
Loren
Dan Abel - 18 Nov 2006 18:08 GMT > > Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative size > and atmospheric cues. This is plenty for normal skills like driving. > > I dunno - if I shut or cover one eye while I drive, the feeling of > disorientation is immediate and disturbing. It's scary to imagine > driving without stereo vision.
> Hmmm. I have no reason to think my friend had anything wrong with his > eyes at that time. Maybe I should ask. I'm having trouble imagining [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > non-dominant eye is looking through the viewfinder? Neither of us > could ever figure out what happened. Now you're getting scary.
:-( Both my wife and I see out of only one eye. We can drive just fine. The kind of depth perception that requires two eyes doesn't work well at longer distances, so doesn't affect driving that much.
But we can both use a camera just fine. Your colleague's inability to take a picture is something different, and I wonder how it affects his driving. Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a viewfinder?
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
William Stacy - 18 Nov 2006 18:24 GMT >Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a viewfinder? > If they use a viewfinder, they must use their "good" eye, or close their good eye if viewing with the amblyopic eye (why would they do that? I don't have a clue). I've run into this more with shooters of guns than shooters of pictures, and it is a real problem for those who are, e.g. right handed and left "eyed". You could get a tooth knocked out trying to aim a rifle or shotgun trying to "cross over". They even make expensive left handed guns for such people.
Dan Abel - 18 Nov 2006 21:40 GMT > >Besides, don't most people just use one eye to look through a viewfinder? > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to aim a rifle or shotgun trying to "cross over". They even make > expensive left handed guns for such people. I've given up shooting. With cataract in both eyes, besides the retinal detachments, my dominant eye has shifted sides way too many times, and I am now "left eyed" and right handed.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Liz Day - 20 Nov 2006 18:30 GMT > ... I've watched him use a camera and be unable to tell whether the object to be photographed is present in the viewfinder or not. The pictures come out randomly - some with the object in the center of the picture as intended, some with it half cut off on the edge, and some with it completely absent (because the camera wasn't pointing at it).
>I don't see how it relates to lack of stereo. Well.... If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??
Allen? You say you don't see simultaneously out of both eyes. Tell me more what this is like. When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same point, I see double images. Do you see double images of everything? If so, don't you have to tune one of them out at any given time?
[But]
>Using the non-dominant eye wouldn't trash your ability to frame and compose a picture. >Your colleague's inability to take a picture is something different, and I wonder how it affects his driving. So do I!!! I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure it's OK to drive. Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't see very well, or is in some way confused, but I don't know *what* it is that he isn't seeing. It worries me.
> [In people who didn't acquire stereopsis] there may be a muscle imbalance that does not allow the eyes to work together with binocular vision. If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking at them? That their eyes are pointing in slightly different directions? Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside observer?
Thanks, Liz
Neil Brooks - 20 Nov 2006 19:23 GMT > If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring > stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking > at them? That their eyes are pointing in slightly different > directions? Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside > observer? I'll speak from personal experience here ... having had three strabismus surgeries AND vision therapy, but becoming more EXotropic now.
It depends. They could well maintain alignment via their fusion mechanism and look like they have straight eyes until something breaks down their alignment (fatigue, alcohol, a "cover test" used to elicit alignment issues in an exam setting, etc.). They could also be perfectly straight when looking in ONE direction, but all over the proverbial map when looking in another.
I look at photos of me and my eyes look pretty darned straight, but ... especially in my case ... it takes a huge amount of autonomic (involuntary) effort to keep them this way. This, alone, can cause symptoms....
By the way, I drive fine, just took something like 1,500 beautiful pictures in about nine different countries, on vacation, and can even parallel park reasonably well. Don't throw the ball my way, though. Please.
A Lieberma - 20 Nov 2006 23:11 GMT "Neil Brooks" <neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1164050602.942250.210010 @j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> By the way, I drive fine, just took something like 1,500 beautiful > pictures in about nine different countries, on vacation, and can even > parallel park reasonably well. Don't throw the ball my way, though. > Please. Why is this Neil? If you can drive / parallel park a car, you don't have eye hand coordination to catch a ball?
I don't have problems catching a ball or even hitting one myself.
A Babe Ruth or Nolan Ryan I am not, but for your basic pick up games, I am able to hold my own.
Allen
Neil Brooks - 21 Nov 2006 03:53 GMT > "Neil Brooks" <neil0502@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1164050602.942250.210010 > @j44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Why is this Neil? If you can drive / parallel park a car, you don't have > eye hand coordination to catch a ball? No simple answer, but best characterized as this: something tossed to me, with a decent amount of arc and minimal velocity: good chance of catching it;
A line drive: I'm getting beaned ... a virtual certainty.
> I don't have problems catching a ball or even hitting one myself. > > A Babe Ruth or Nolan Ryan I am not, but for your basic pick up games, I am > able to hold my own. One of the issues that may come heavily into play: your alignment may have been =stable= since just post-operative. In my case, the strabismus is nonconcomitant (varying in every direction in which I look) AND has been altered with the three surgeries that I've had, with vision therapy interventions, AND with age. So ... the neurologic whatever-it-is that handles these issues probably never had enough stable data to develop the right algorithm.
I seem to recall that you could say--with some certainty--that a person whose eyes turned OUT nearly always threw the ball (say: basketball) short of the hoop, while a person whose eyes turned IN nearly always over-threw the ball.
Something like that....
As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to stabilize the angles.
Mike Tyner - 21 Nov 2006 04:57 GMT > As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my > accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to > stabilize the angles. Sometimes presbyopia helps, freeing up accommodative convergence without adding blur.
-MT
Neil Brooks - 21 Nov 2006 05:47 GMT > > As I'm going exo- now, AND working my way into presbyopia ... with my > > accommodative issues .... I'm looking into VT once again to try to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MT This is actually really encouraging, Mike. I've been wondering whether--when accommodative amplitudes fade--accommodative _convergence_ would remain relatively unaffected.
I _assumed_ so based on knowing that 80 year olds can still converge.
Thanks.
A Lieberma - 20 Nov 2006 23:08 GMT > Well.... If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but > who does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see?? Can't resist.... the same thing you do????
> Allen? You say you don't see simultaneously out of both eyes. Tell > me more what this is like. Pretty much seeing out of one eye, but lesser peripheral vision should I close one eye. If I switch the focus of attention in the way I look, the image will jump a little to the right or left, other then that nothing different I'd suspect then what you see????
> When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same > point, I see double images. Do you see double images of everything? > If so, don't you have to tune one of them out at any given time? I don't get the benefits of double vision as you describe above. My eyes truly don't work together vision wise. If I look right and left, they both move simultaneously, but if I look right, I end up looking out of the right eye, and if I look left, I look out of the left eye. I notice a slight jump in perception as what I see jumps from one eye to the other eye as I shift my eyes to the right or left.
Other then seeing "simulated double vision" via the computer, when I look outside the monitor, it's only one of a kind, no double anything.
> So do I!!! I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure > it's OK to drive. Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't > see very well, or is in some way confused, but I don't know *what* it > is that he isn't seeing. It worries me. Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo vision. Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain adjusts accordingly. Again, what I don't have, I don't miss.
If the car in front of me is getting larger, it's a no brainer I'd better be working the brakes. Flying does add a third dimension in which people seemed surprise I am able to master. Not only you have to gauge right and left, but up and down too! This obviously becomes more critical in the landing stage so to compensate for my lack of stereoscopic vision, I pick a spot on the windshield and aim that spot for the runway numbers. If the spot moves up from the numbers, that means my plane is dropping faster then I need to be. If the spot moves down from the numbers of the runway, that means I am staying aloft longer then I need to and have to adjust the plane accordingly.
I don't have the ability to look out those 3D glasses, my eyes don't join what ever is suppose to join together, either I see out of the right or left, but the two images though shall not meet in the middle.
> If someone has enough strabismus to have prevented their acquiring > stereopsis (i.e., it was never corrected), can you see this by looking > at them? That their eyes are pointing in slightly different > directions? Or could it be going on, but be invisible to the outside > observer? In my case, after surgical correction, you would never know I didn't have binocular vision. The alignment issue is seperate especially after surgery.
Allen
Scott Seidman - 21 Nov 2006 01:08 GMT > Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo > vision. Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain > adjusts accordingly. Again, what I don't have, I don't miss. There are a ton of cues for distance listed at http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~msl/courses/2223/notes.8.pdf.
Stereopsis becomes less useful at distances above about three feet, which is surprisingly close.
For the one-eyed individual, the bigger problem is the lack of visual field. I suspect that two-eyed people without stereopsis often don't know of their problem-- possibly there are more in ignorant bliss than there are those in the know.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Ann - 21 Nov 2006 19:46 GMT >> Driving (or flying in my case) is NOT affected by lack of stereo >> vision. Just like any other shall we call it "handicap" the brain [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >of their problem-- possibly there are more in ignorant bliss than there are >those in the know. This one eyed person can't even reach out for a door handle and get it first time. Don't you have problems like that? I can't shake hands with anyone properly either. I just hold my hand out and make them do the finding, it works better that way.
I have also found that it isn't quite true that stereoscopic vision isn't used at distance. Many times I can't tell where something is in relation to something else while nobody else seems to have quite the same problem.
Ann
Mike Tyner - 21 Nov 2006 20:11 GMT > I have also found that it isn't quite true that stereoscopic vision > isn't used at distance. Many times I can't tell where something is in > relation to something else while nobody else seems to have quite the > same problem. Stereopsis doesn't quit working when you focus far away, else nobody could appreciate 3-D movies. The geometry of triangles simply makes disparities more useful up close.
Further away we depend more on relative size, relative motion and atmospheric cues than on stereopsis.
-MT
A Lieberma - 19 Nov 2006 00:21 GMT >> Well, we all have "depth perception" using relative motion, relative >> size [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > your head back and forth like a mongoose. > <8-( Like Mike Tyner says, you don't miss what you don't have.
I don't have stereoscopic vision and miserably flunk the eye test that has the objects placed in a different position when looked out of both eyes vs one eye when looking through the view finder.
I drive, fly a plane (FAA requires a vision test every two years for my class of license), climb ladders and all sorts of good stuff like that.
I don't have any problems with peripheral vision, just that I don't see simultaneously out of both eyes.
Like you, if I close one eye, I do feel something is amiss, but not to the point of disorientation. This happens whether I use my dominant or non dominant eye.
My eyes were crossed when growing up, and I had that surgically corrected, but that did not change the stereoscopic vision issues I have.
Allen
jerzger - 18 Nov 2006 15:14 GMT Interesting question. I'm in the same boat as your neighbor. As a teen I was warned by my eye doctor to be very careful driving due to having no depth perception. To be honest, I never knew the different. I'm 55 now and have an accident free driving record, so somehow, we are able to drive safely. Hope this helps to reassure you about your neighbors driving :-) You'd probably have more to worry about if I was your neighbor because now I'm also driving with cataracts! :-)
> A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his > sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cheers, > LD William Stacy - 18 Nov 2006 17:35 GMT Stereopsis is really not needed for ordinary driving. Only parking in close quarters does it become helpful in avoiding scrapes. Most people who don't have stereo do quite well utilizing parallax. Same thing for pilots. Lots of one-eyed pilots, and stereo is only needed if they are flying close formation like the Blue Angles.
w.stacy, o.d.
>Interesting question. I'm in the same boat as your neighbor. As a teen >I was warned by my eye doctor to be very careful driving due to having [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Liz Day - 21 Nov 2006 00:36 GMT >> If someone has enough strabismus... can you see this by looking at them?
>It depends. They could well maintain alignment via their fusion mechanism and look like they have straight eyes until something breaks down their alignment (fatigue, alcohol, a "cover test" used to elicit alignment issues in an exam setting, etc.). They could also be perfectly straight when looking in ONE direction, but all over the proverbial map when looking in another.
OK, thanks.
>> If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who does have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see??
>Can't resist.... the same thing you do???? ACK! How would I know?! I'm realizing now not to be too sure of anything. I had thought everything I saw was so "normal"...... hah. What a confusing mess.
:-( :-(
>> You don't see simultaneously out of both eyes. Tell me more what this is like. Pretty much seeing out of one eye, but lesser peripheral vision should I close one eye. If I switch the focus of attention in the way I look, the image will jump a little to the right or left....
> When I move my eyes so that they are not both focused on the same > point, I see double images. Do you see double images of everything? I don't get the benefits of double vision as you describe above. My eyes truly don't work together vision wise. If I look right and left, they both move simultaneously, but if I look right, I end up looking out of the right eye, and if I look left, I look out of the left eye. I notice a slight jump in perception as what I see jumps from one eye to the other eye as I shift my eyes to the right or left.
It sounds as though you can somehow switch your brain "off" off the view through the eye you're not using. As though you can shift from one eye being totally dominant to the other totally dominant. True?
> I wonder if there is some test he can take to be sure it's OK to drive. Often his behavior suggests to me that he doesn't see very well....
>Driving is NOT affected by lack of stereo vision... the brain adjusts accordingly. I understand this now. See my next post. :-(
LD
A Lieberma - 21 Nov 2006 03:03 GMT >>> If you're a person who lacks stereo depth perception, but who does >>> have two functioning eyes.... what DO you see?? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What a confusing mess. >:-( :-( Hey Liz,
Just messing with you. We both SEE the same thing.
What we don't see is the quality difference *smile*. You see the same tree as I would. However our brains may interpret the tree in a different image. But we both see the same tree. Make more sense?
> It sounds as though you can somehow switch your brain "off" off the > view through the eye you're not using. As though you can shift from > one eye being totally dominant to the other totally dominant. True? Yes, one eye is "always dominant" though may not be my dominant eye at all times. For example.
If I look straight ahead, my right eye is the dominant eye and my left eye is along for the ride.
If I look right, I see no image jump. If I look to the left, guestimating about 45 degrees or so, I will see a slight image jump to the left. You can see this by pointing your finger out, and close your left eye. Then open your left eye and your finger will be pointed slightly to a different point. This is what my brain interprets during this "transition" that is not so seamless I guess.
> I understand this now. See my next post. :-( Has not hit my newserver server just yet....
Allen
Liz Day - 21 Nov 2006 08:32 GMT > > I understand this now. See my next post. :-( > > Has not hit my newserver server just yet.... Possible you can email me privately? I can't get through to you via this group.
thanks, Liz
Toller - 21 Nov 2006 21:22 GMT >A colleague tells me that he has no depth perception. He is in his > sixties and apparently this has been the case his entire life. He has [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Especially if they have been successfully driving a car their whole > life. Possible? I would have thought that wasn't very safe. I have no depth perception because I don't see out of my left eye. My vision is normal in both eyes, but my right eye is so dominant that the left image is largely ignored. If I try hard, I can force it; but normally nothing.
I can't say I miss it; clues are so abundant I am not sure it matters.
Liz Day - 22 Nov 2006 08:16 GMT After learning how stereoscopic vision works and is acquired (thank you all!), I talked to my buddy again.
Briefly, it appears that he had good depth perception until recently. Whatever is wrong seems to have occurred after one of two cataract operations.
If so, he may not have developed the alternative visual coping skills found in those of you who are mono from birth. Given the way people drive around here, I worry.
Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see depth and distance? Is there any help?
Thanks....
LD
Dan Abel - 22 Nov 2006 16:17 GMT > After learning how stereoscopic vision works and is acquired (thank you > all!), I talked to my buddy again. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see > depth and distance? Is there any help? Without going into the details, yes. I had this problem for five years, the time between my cataract surgeries. However, I knew this was coming, and it was my choice.
Again, without knowing the details of your buddy's eyes, it is possible that the second cataract surgery will fix the problem.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
William Stacy - 23 Nov 2006 00:31 GMT >Could a successful (?) cataract operation change ones ability to see >depth and distance? Is there any help? > > Yes. and Yes. Hopefully, he is correctible to close to 20/20 in each eye. If so, and he once had stereo, he should be able to have it again. If he can't get 20/20 for some reason on one or both eyes, his stereo may be permanently reduced.
w.stacy, o.d.
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