Medical Forum / General / Vision / September 2006
Wavefront LASIK and surface retreatments are a hoax!
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southeasteyecare@hotmail.com - 16 Sep 2006 17:30 GMT Wavefront LASIK and surface retreatments are a hoax. Once you rip up a flap or remove the epithelium, the wavefront map is no longer applicable to that eye. No wonder so many patients are made worse by wavefront retreatments.
What do you think, Otis?
otisbrown@pa.net - 16 Sep 2006 19:13 GMT Dear southeasteyecare,
I have nothing to say about Lasik.
Only about preveting the development of a negative refractive STATE of the eye -- at the threshold -- based on pure science as it concerns the behavior of all natural eyes.
Best,
Otis
> Wavefront LASIK and surface retreatments are a hoax. Once you rip up a > flap or remove the epithelium, the wavefront map is no longer > applicable to that eye. No wonder so many patients are made worse by > wavefront retreatments. > > What do you think, Otis? Mike Tyner - 16 Sep 2006 20:04 GMT > I have nothing to say about Lasik. > > Only about preveting the development of a negative > refractive STATE of the eye -- at the threshold -- based And don't forget you're also the local expert on that vast conspiracy of eye doctors and opticians who all work to keep your therapy from being offered to the public.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 16 Sep 2006 23:06 GMT I certainly agree the plus-prevention on the threshold is a decision or choice the person himself must make,
Given the arrogance of Dr. Grant, and his hostility towards the preventive second-opinion, I doubt that you will ever be involved in effective plus-prevention.
Best,
Otis
> > I have nothing to say about Lasik. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -MT Mike Tyner - 17 Sep 2006 00:12 GMT > Given the arrogance of Dr. Grant, and his hostility > towards the preventive second-opinion, I doubt > that you will ever be involved in effective > plus-prevention. Every eye doctor in the world would get "involved" if you simply show us that it works.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Sep 2006 02:25 GMT Dear Mike,
The "eye doctor" who gets involved with the SCIENTIFIC FACTS -- and can judge them CORRECTLY will have his child BEGIN wearing that plus at the threshold -- when it MUST be used to be effective.
The SECOND-OPINION ODs children will simply NEVER enter into a negative refractive STATE because of that knowledge and wisdom.
It is his concern for his own children's visual welfare, and the ability to "control" their "near" environment with the proper-strength plus that makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE.
But you are a "majority-opinion OD" who can not understan that TRUE ISSUE. I indeed regret that fact -- but that is the way it is.
Best,
Otis
> > Given the arrogance of Dr. Grant, and his hostility > > towards the preventive second-opinion, I doubt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -MT otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Sep 2006 02:41 GMT Mike,
If you wish to argue that the plus does not "work" in 5 minutes -- I would agree with you.
If you wish to argue that plus-prevention is tedious -- I will agree with you.
But when you insist that a minus 3 diopter lens has NO EFFECT on the refractive STATE of the natural eye -- I must totally disagree with you because science tells us the dead opposite of your biased belief.
Best,
Otis
+++++++++++
Dear Prevention-minded freind,
The "problem" with plus-prevention.
People often ask how I "know" that prevention is possible at the threshold. The reason it this:
1. It has already been accomplised (on the threshold of 20/60, or -1.25 diopters) and
2. The fundamental science of the eye's behavior says so. (Primate studies).
Now what is the problem? The problem is this:
1. It is tedious.
2. Most people have NO INTEREST in clearing their vision with a plus -- since it is tedious. They want their vision made-sharp in 5 minutes with a minus.
Anyone wishing to "clear" their vision (from 20/60) must understand this issue.
Here is the example of 34 cases where vision was "cleared" from a negative value to normal.
But this should be a "factor" in your decision to help your child "clear" from 20/60. Note that it took several months to clear. This is what I would expect for your child. It takes commitment on the part of the parent and child. Both must "stick" with it.
Also note that the "plus" was 3.5 diopters. I think that the "plus" should be about 2.5 diopters -- but your child can work "up" to that amount of plus.
You have taken one MAJOR STEP in vision clearing. You measured her snellen youself. In my opinion, if you see the vision-clearing results -- you will believe them. I think that is the only way to be confident.
I know this is completely "new" to you -- so take your time. Accept that it is "difficult" but possible. But it truly does take personal determination and resolve, and trust in your own ability.
Best,
Otis
++++++++
Vision Clearing -- Both the Success and the difficulties. « on: September 11, 2006
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The "Plus" has been used to clear vision in the past.
But the effort requires strong resolve to do it.
Here is the discussion:
=================================
By Chalmer Prentice, M.D.
Transcription (c) A. Wik, 2004
----------+ | Chapter IX | +--------
The following are some very interesting experiments in myopia which can be verified by any operator, and which prove that refractive myopia depends on ciliary spasm, and that, even in axial myopia, considerable repression can sometimes be made at the near point. In either class of cases, repression must be made at the near point. In various lengths of time, we shall be able to reduce the myopia one or two dioptres, sometimes more. In most cases satisfactory results will require considerable time and patience; but a few experiments after the following example will suffice to show that in some very advanced stages of myopia, it is possible to suppress, or at least check, its onward course by repression at the near point.
This fact renders the fitting of minus glasses to myopic eyes an open question.
EXAMPLE CASES
Age forty-three; myopia; had been wearing over the right eye -1.25 D, left eye -1 D, with little or no change for the space of two years; eyes in use more or less at the near point. I recommended the removal of the concave glasses for distant vision and prescribed +3.50 D for reading, writing and other office work.
After reading in these glasses for several days, the patient was able to read print twelve inches from the eyes. This patient was of more than ordinary intelligence and understood the aim of the effort. In six months I changed the glasses for reading and writing to a +4 D without seeing the patient. After using the +4 D glasses for several months he again came under my care for an examination, when the left eye gave twenty-twentieths of vision, while the right eye was very nearly the same, but the acuity was just perceptibly less.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Similar results have been attained in 34 like cases;
...but the process is very tedious for the patients, and unless their understanding is clear on the subject, it is almost impossible to induce them to undergo the trial.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Comment: Anyone considering "prevention" must understand this issue. There is no "easy way" of prevention. As Chalmers said -- the person must fully understand this issue. It is for this reason that I suggest full transfer of "control" to the person himself. If he lacks the motivation to look at the chart, and "clear" himself, then no "third party" (i.e., OD) can do it for the person. This is why I separate a true-medical problem from preventing a negative refractive status in the natural eye. I believe that the above staement simply clarifies that point. OSB]
________________________
Dear Prevention minded friends,
Subject: Second-opinion on preventing negative refractive states.
I suggest that there is a profound difference concerning "pure science" and "pure medicine". And I suggest the difference is this:
Medicine: Must deal with a great mass of people walking in off the street. There might be some "intelligent" people but that can never be the assumption of the medical doctor. The result is that we get "canned" procedures that "work" instantly. I consider that people in this profession have no choice but to conduct that kind of work -- and I would do the same thing IN THEIR PROFESSION. That would not make it "right" but I do understand them -- and what they are doing. Also let me include the incredible arrogant statement by "Dr. Grant", as the worst of the worst -- where he declares himself a "God" in his office. That is why I would avoid these M.O. ODs -- and accept them for detecting exclusively MEDICAL problems. And a negative refractive STATE of -1.25 diopters (20/60) is NOT a medical problem.
Science: Must "step back" from that situation, and think about the behavior of the natural eye as a dynamic system. Engineers and scientists simply do not deal with children, nor with others that do not understand the need to work on prevention with the plus.
But when you ask very fundamental questions about whether a population of eyes (primates) are dynamic, you get the "second-opinion" answer, that POTENTIALLY a negative refractive status could be prevented -- before the minus lens is applied.
I believe that pure science (i.e., the SCIENTIFIC -- not medical -- experiments proves that point.) But that is the nature of our arguments. Many concepts in science simply can never be reduced to "medicine" (as per the above) and we should understand that truth.
This is how I separate "medical issues" from scientific concepts and experimental and objective testing.
But that is why it took a scientist like Dr. Stirling Colgate to do the "work" correctly and clear his vision from 20/70 to 20/20.
His statements are confirmed by direct experiments with the primate eye, again on a pure-scientific (not medical) level.
Use the term "refractive state" where the natural eye can have positive and negative refractive status (as a dynamic device) and this situation becomes much clearer.
Best,
Otis
> > Given the arrogance of Dr. Grant, and his hostility > > towards the preventive second-opinion, I doubt [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -MT p.clarkii@gmail.com - 17 Sep 2006 03:52 GMT > I have nothing to say about Lasik. Thats what this thread was about. so why did you reply? You should just shut up if you have "nothing to say" about a topic.
Dr. Leukoma - 17 Sep 2006 04:03 GMT > > I have nothing to say about Lasik. > > Thats what this thread was about. so why did you reply? > You should just shut up if you have "nothing to say" about a topic. Otis has nothing to say about a number of things.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Sep 2006 05:27 GMT > > I have nothing to say about Lasik. > > Thats what this thread was about. so why did you reply? PClar -- why do you not READ the lead in statement.
I was personally asked to make a comment.
> You should just shut up if you have "nothing to say" about a topic. Your opinion. This is an "open" site -- and all opinions are welcome.
Otis
A Lieberma - 17 Sep 2006 13:58 GMT "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in
> Your opinion. This is an "open" site -- and all opinions > are welcome. WRONG AGAIN Otis,
YOUR opinions are not welcomed here.
Why don't you try to take a scientific poll? Bet you will find you are wrong.....
Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 17 Sep 2006 18:42 GMT Allen,
Science is not a "vote" or a popularity contest -- that you think it is.
"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual."
Galileo
"All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them."
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world. Indeed it's the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead
Every creative act involves ... a new innocence of perception, liberated from the cataract of accepted belief.
Arthur Koestler
Those who fall in love with practice without science are like a sailor who enters a ship without a helm or compass, and who never can be certain whither he is going.
Leonardo da Vinci
Best,
Otis
Galileo
> "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Allen William Stacy - 17 Sep 2006 23:05 GMT > "In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not >worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." > > Galileo > > Of course Galileo was referring to the lucid and logical reasoning of a single sensible person, especially when that person brings real evidence to bear.
> "All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; >the point is to discover them." > > I don't know who said that, but they obviously haven't studied quantum mechanincs.
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed >citizens can change the world. Indeed it's the only thing that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Poor Maggie. She forgot to point out that many small groups of "thoughtful committed citizens" are are committed allright, and are committed to mental institutions, and they never have nor ever will change the world.
> Every creative act involves ... a new innocence of >perception, liberated from the cataract of accepted belief. > > Arthur Koestler > > Art is talking about creative acts like art and music, not science, which is founded upon a body of accepted beliefs. There isn't much room in science for creativity. Only logic and reason based on careful observations.
> Those who fall in love with practice without science are like >a sailor who enters a ship without a helm or compass, and who >never can be certain whither he is going. > > Leonardo da Vinci > Leo had it right, and was referring to guys like you, who have become emotionally entangled with their own special little belief systems and refuse to subject them to the light of scientific examination.
w.stacy, o.d.
Mike Tyner - 17 Sep 2006 17:25 GMT > Your opinion. This is an "open" site -- and all opinions > are welcome. Meaning, this is the gutter of the internet, where anyone can present themselves as an expert, misrepresent facts and ignore inconvenient questions.
It's a place where you can make up your own definitions, like "natural eye" and "threshold".
It's a place where you can make up your own data, and design "thought experiments" that clearly prove your point.
It's a place where imagination rules, where physics and statistics no longer describe the real world, where aspartame is poison and wearing glasses causes nearsightedness.
If your fallacies get pointed out, no worries. Just wait a week or two, til the embarassment fades, and start all over with the same unsupported assertions, because that's what you be-lieve.
Make it new. Make it real. Preach it, brudder.
-MT
retinula - 17 Sep 2006 19:01 GMT you started off your reply just fine--- "i have nothing to say...". its the diarrhea that followed that you should have held back.
> > > I have nothing to say about Lasik. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Otis LarryDoc - 17 Sep 2006 05:49 GMT > Dear southeasteyecare, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > on pure science as it concerns the behavior of > all natural eyes. Except that SCIENCE has already proved you wrong, you idiotic zealot. Not once in nearly three years of posting your bullshit over and over and over again have you ever replied to anyone's request for supportive scientific data that validates your "theory". Just one peer reviewed real scientific study that proves you right.
Of course you can't, because there are indeed good scientific studies that prove you wrong.
Geez! Get a life. At the threshold.
LB, O.D.
Salmon Egg - 17 Sep 2006 04:50 GMT On 9/16/06 9:30 AM, in article 1158424236.844623.322010@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com,
> Wavefront LASIK and surface retreatments are a hoax. Once you rip up a > flap or remove the epithelium, the wavefront map is no longer > applicable to that eye. No wonder so many patients are made worse by > wavefront retreatments. > > What do you think, Otis? Not coming from the optometric profession, whenever I hear about wavefront correction, I think interferometry. When I think of interferometry, I think of measuring optical error to a fraction of a wavelength such as 1/10 wave or less. I doubt that eye surfaces are so stable or reproducible so that measurement of error to less than a wavelength or two is truly meaningful. Thus, although you truly are correcting the wavefront, use of the term "wavefront" IMPLIES working at an unrealistically high precision when vision is involved.
If there is a hoax, it lies in puffery that makes it sound better than it really is.
Bill -- Fermez le Bush
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