Medical Forum / General / Vision / August 2006
For Bill -- Could you check these statistics?
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otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Aug 2006 21:08 GMT Dear prevention minded friends,
Nothing will ever be attempted if all possible objections must be first overcome.
Samuel Johnson
Subject: A statistical engineering study to determine if the fundamental eye is dynamic -- vs. passive.
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Snippet from sci.med.vision:
The null hypothesis as stated by Majority-opinion Dr G,
Otis> Yes, this is the truth. (That the natural eye is a dynamic system -- and proven to be so.)
Otis> If there is to EVER be change here, then we must accept the results of science that show that the forced wearing of a -3 diopter lens on a population of NATURAL EYES, will result in the refractive STATE of the -3 diopter group CHANGING by at least -2 diopters in one year.
DrG > This is complete and utter garbage. In my profession of many years, I have indeed encountered instances of prescriptions being written in excess of the refractive error. In none of the cases was the myopia increased. None.
DrG
Otis> In other words, Dr G, your hypothesis is that a minus lens has NO EFFECT on the refractive STATE of all fundamental eyes, i.e., the null hypothesis, that the fundamental eye is not a dynamic system.
Otis> To avoid upset on your part, please use the word refractive STATE, and not "error" or "defect" in any form to respect the dynamic behavior of the natural eye.
Otis
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I have used standard statistics for this analysis. In my judgment, the students must understand this type of technical analysis, and would appreciate the type of intellectual and physical control they would use to protect their distant vision -- through their four years at the college.
The difference of 1 diopter between the test and control groups in 6 months would be sufficient to reject the null "optical bench", or "box camera" (paradigm) hypothesis as stated explicitly by Dr. G.
Since you have the technical background I would think that both you and pilots would be interested in conducting this type of study as an engineering-design effort.
Best,
Otis
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A TEST TO DEMONSTRATED THAT THE FOCAL STATE OF THE FUNDAMENTAL EYE "FOLLOWS" THE ACCOMMODATION SIGNAL
(As a dynamic system)
Test the hypothesis that there is absolutely no neurological linkage between the accommodation system of the eye and the focal state of the natural eye.
The mean focal state of a population of 100 natural eye is 0.6 diopters. (The natural eye in an "open" environment.) The 1-Sigma spread runs between zero and +2 diopters for the natural, or fundamental eye.
The standard deviation is approximately 0.25 diopters. (To be measured as part of the experiment protocol -- for this specific test.)
QUESTION:
Will these experimental results significant, or HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT, and if so, what is the calculated level of significance of the results.
NOTE: Standard testing states that a level of 0.05 is significant, and a level greater than 0.01 (1 in 100) described as highly significant.
SOLUTION:
The scientists must decide between the hypothesis:
Ho: The null hypothesis is the belief that the eye is a box camera, and there must be no relationship between the visual environment and focal state of the eye. (Stated as a fact by Dr. G.)
The Ho Hypothesis: Focus of Test group = Focus of Control Group
The null hypothesis states that there will be no significant difference in refractive STATE will develop between the two groups.
Ha: Test-group (will develop a more negative focal SATE) than Control-group (The single-tailed test.)
The alternative hypothesis (Ha) states that the natural eye behaves as an auto-focused camera, and will control (change) its focal STATE based on the "delta" produced by the assiduous use of a minus lens.
Part 2
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The values in this equation are translated as follows:
X-Bar = Average of Test and Average of Control:
At the start of the test, the average refractive status is identical for the group -- considered to be homogeneous.
After the group of 100 individuals are randomly divided in half, then a difference in refractive status (measured by atropine or other standard methods) which will develop. In this specific example the difference between the two groups was projected as greater than 0.5 diopters after four months. This POSSIBLITY is explicitly DENIED by Dr. G.
Sigma = Standard deviation:
In statistics, "Sigma" is a required calculation. Before the start of this test, Standard-deviation will be calculated for the group of 100.
After four months, standard-deviation will be calculated for the test-group and the control-group. This value is required for this calculation.
C = Control Group:
This group will wear no lens.
T = Test Group:
The wears the -3 diopter minus lens during the four month of the study.
N = Number in group:
100 individuals will start the test, with 50 in each group. It is expected that a number of individuals will not be able to complete the test for various reasons. In this example, 45 individuals were in the control group, and 35 in the test group, thus meeting the protocol of this scientific study to determine if the eye is a dynamic, versus passive, system.
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The null hypothesis Ho, assumes that the means of the two groups are identical after the completion of this study.
The following "Z" static is calculated as described below.
[ X-Bar(Control) - X-Bar(Test) ]
Z = ----------------------------------------------------------
Square Root [ Sigma-C ^2 / N(Control) + Sigma-T ^2 / N(Test) ]
The change in refractive STATE is expected to be greater-than -0.5 diopters.
Z = [( 0.1 ) - ( 0.6 )] / SQRT [ (0.25^2 / 45) + (0.25^2 / 35) ]
Z = 8.87
Notes: C = Control Group T = Test Group N = Number in group X-Bar = Average of Test and Average of Control Sigma = Standard deviation ^2 = Squared SQRT = Square Root of
Since this result exceeds 2.33, which is the 0.01 (99 percent) confidence level, we can say that it is highly probable that the eye is a control-system, and that this result is in agreement with the previous experiments that demonstrate that all eyes will change their refractive STATE in a negative direction when forced to wear a -3 diopter lens 16/7 for four months.
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LEVELS OF SIGNIFICANCE:
------------ Percent -----------
Significance Level: 0.05 0.01 0.005 0.002
Critical "Z" values 1.645 2.33 2.58 2.88 for the one-tailed test
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The values chosen for this review are representative numbers. The results of an a formal study will produce similar outcome. It is worth the effort to establish the above suggested relationship.
On the basis of this test, using the one-tailed test at a level of significance of 0.01 we should reject the null hypothesis, Ho, that the natural eye is a rigid box camera, and that there is NO RELATIONSHIP between the eye's visual environment and its focal STATE.
DrG > This is complete and utter garbage. In my profession of many years, I have indeed encountered instances of prescriptions being written in excess of the refractive error. In none of the cases was the myopia increased. None.
DrG
So, Dr. G, your null hypothesis fails under pure scientific testing.
At the very minimum, the second-opinion, that a negative refractive STATE can be prevented -- has scientific merit.
Have a nice day,
Otis
LarryDoc - 23 Aug 2006 21:38 GMT > Dear prevention minded friends, You have no friends here.
Listen you sick old man. Enough of your rants. And now stop abusing the basic and accepted policies of USENET news groups. If you want to communicate with a specific individual then do that via email or telephone, not by posting a subject directed toward that person.
Of course you take that one step further, as the text of your bogus subject has nothing to with it.
What I can't understand is that everyone here is quite aware of your agenda and the FACT that your posts are mostly lies and otherwise completely without merit, yet you continue. You'd think you go away and find a place where someone might actually engage you in conversation instead of continually attack you. That is truly sick/demented or whatever pyscho babble you want to call it.
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Aug 2006 03:57 GMT Larry, I have heard your majority opinion many times.
You do not respect the fundamental eye as a dynamic system. That is your majority opinion, and definitely not based on objective facts.
If you wish to continue to believe that the natural eye is not a sophisticated, and therefore not a dynamic system -- then do so.
There are second-opinion optometrists who recognize the need for basic change in concept, and support a person's right to an informed CHOICE in this preventive matter.
But that is the nature of scientific analysis of the behavior of all fundamental eyes.
But further, I asked Bill to check the statistis and math -- as the concern pure scientific issues -- and not you.
Let use hear what Bill has to say about science and the dynamic behavior as the natural eye as a paradigm.
Otis
> > Dear prevention minded friends, > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > instead of continually attack you. That is truly sick/demented or > whatever pyscho babble you want to call it. Mike Tyner - 24 Aug 2006 04:41 GMT > Let use hear what Bill has to say about science > and the dynamic behavior as the natural > eye as a paradigm. Let us hear what you have to say about Grosvenor, Ong, Parssinen, Shotwell, and the others. Why didn't their studies show "staircase myopia?" Was it hidden?
Why didn't wearing glasses accellerate myopia in real people with real myopia?
Your staircase goes nowhere and your elevator doesn't quite reach the top.
-MT
Simon Dean - 24 Aug 2006 14:24 GMT > Larry, I have heard your majority opinion many times. > > You do not respect the fundamental eye as a dynamic system. That is > your majority opinion, and definitely not based on objective facts. You wouldn't know a fact if it met you face to face said "hello, im a fact" and shook your hand. You'd probably just try and force it into plus lenses and show it a photo of some chickens.
> But further, I asked Bill to check the statistis and math -- as the > concern pure scientific issues -- and not you. He has an email address, use it, you cancerous leech.
> Let use hear what Bill has to say about science and the dynamic > behavior as the natural eye as a paradigm. You mean the Bill who isn't a vision professional?
CatmanX - 25 Aug 2006 11:19 GMT Hey Bill,
I made up some numbers. Can you invent some statistical looking gobbldy-gook and allow me to present it as fact.
I think it will look really Kool when the dicks at Sci-Med-Vision get sucked in by my invented logic.
I think I am going to play with myself now I am so excited.
Yours
Cletis
otisbrown@pa.net - 25 Aug 2006 15:23 GMT Otis> If there is to EVER be change here, then we must accept the results of science that show that the forced wearing of a -3 diopter lens on a population of NATURAL EYES, will result in the refractive STATE of the -3 diopter group CHANGING by at least -2 diopters in one year.
DrG > This is complete and utter garbage. In my profession of many years, I have indeed encountered instances of prescriptions being written in excess of the refractive error. In none of the cases was the myopia increased. None.
Dear Mr. Grant,
I used to have some respect for people who are PROFESSIONAL.
You are proving beyond any doubt that you are not.
But we now know the basis of your "majority-opinion".
A quick-fix works instantly -- and all other scientific facts and analysis is PROHIBITED.
That is indeed why there is a second-opinion (on the threshold) by optometrist who will HELP the public with prevention.
But of course when engineers and scientists RESPECT the eye as a dynamic system -- you simply revert to your convenient office-fib -- and call them names.
Otis
> Hey Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Cletis Mike Tyner - 25 Aug 2006 15:34 GMT > But of course when engineers and scientists RESPECT the > eye as a dynamic system -- you simply revert to your > convenient office-fib -- and call them names. Names like Shotwell, Grosvenor, Ong, and Parssinen.
Why did these well-designed studies show no evidence of staircase myopia?
C'mon, grow a set... don't just ignore the question.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 25 Aug 2006 21:30 GMT Dear MR Grant (Catman),
I have yet to encounter an opthamologist who "reacts" the way that you do -- with your foul mouth. You cease to be a professional when you do that -- and you have been doing a lot of that on this forum.
You remind me of a bunch of spoild adolescents -- who insist on having their own way -- ALL THE TIME.
And when they don't -- insist in calling everyone else (including the honest second-opinion) names -- and acting petulant.
Ace deserves a fair, honest answer. He may not "like" the correct answer -- but he has a right to it.
Try to grow up -- and treat people with respect.
Otis
> Hey Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Cletis BD - 25 Aug 2006 22:30 GMT > Ace deserves a fair, honest answer. He may not "like" the > correct answer -- but he has a right to it. Holy CRAP, Otis - you are a RIOT!
Ace deserves a fair, honest answer? Why? Because he aligns himself with you?? What about the questions that YOU have been asked repeatedly by Neil?? Or by myself, for that matter?? My question regarding accomodation in primates seems pretty to the point and reasonable to me... and yet it remains ignored and deflected! Do THESE questions not deserve a fair, honest answer?
What is it about my question that makes it undeserving of an answer from you, where a question from your prodigy deserves better? PLEASE share - inquiring minds want to know!
Fair, honest answer indeed. *Ptui!* ((that was me spitting at your hypocritical feet in disgust))
CatmanX - 26 Aug 2006 23:44 GMT Sorry Cletis, but I do not have to be polite to you as you choose to post total crap that has no scientific basis. You invent figures, you invent case reports, you promote fiction as fact.
You have no credibility, so why should I give you any?
Have you noticed that no-one with any knowledge in this arena agrees with you? This is because you can produce no scientific evidence that what you propose actually works. All your evidence is outdated, wrong and disproven.
Show me a randomised double blind trial.
dr grant BScOptom MOptom FACBO FCOVD GCOT Board Certified Second Opinion Expert
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