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Medical Forum / General / Vision / August 2006

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For Ace -- Avoiding entry into stair-case myopia.

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otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Aug 2006 13:46 GMT
Dear Ace,

    "All [people] occasionally stumble upon
the truth - but most pick themselves up, dust
themselves off, and carry on as if nothing
had happened."

                       Winston Churchill

    "All great truths begin as blasphemies."

                        George Bernard Shaw

    "The important thing is to not stop questioning.  Curiosity
has its own reason for existing".

                          Albert Einstein

    To avoid stair-case myopia -- it is necessary to clear your
vision back to normal, and then just montor your Snellen to make
certain you always PASS all legal visual-acuity requirements.

    That way, you never develop stair-case myopia from an
over-prescribed minus.

    Here is the discussion.  (Name changed due to
majority-opinion hostility to an an honest, preventive
second-opinion.)

    Otis

    Subject:  Preventive success -- from 20/60 to 20/20

    Re:  And keeping vision clear through the college years.

    I know that there are those who "object" to the use of the
"plus" at 20/60 -- and with some reasons.  But, as with Bates, or
any other second-opinion method -- it is DEPENDENT on the person
himself to make the method work.

    Here is a statement by "Jon" (name changed) who started the
vision-clearing process at age 14.  Two years later, his vision is
still clear -- and he must now pass the OBJECTIVE DMV level test.

    For your enjoyment,

    Otis

    ++++++++++

    "We do not see things as they are.  We see them as we are."

    - Anais Nin

    Email from Jon, 8/20/06

    Dear Otis

    I haven't contacted you in a while.  Just an update.....  i
tested my eyes outside today on a Snellen (with sunglasses on) and
I could read 1/4 letters on the 20/20 line.

    I haven't worn the plus lenses for over a year, but I do wear
them sometimes for extended near work.    My vision seems to be the
same.

    I'll be 16 in less than a month - off to the DMV!  Ill have
to do a little work with the plus lens before then - or do some
eye exercises.

    Jon

    ++++++++++++

    Dear Jon,

    Good to hear from you.  As you know, I receive incredible
"objections" for my advocacy that you personally protect your
distant vision -- through the school years.

    Your success is due to your personal persistence when you
were at 20/60, or about -1.5 diopters.

    You now know the "secret" of plus-prevention.

    It is an issue like "diet" where you simply monitor your
Snellen, and when your visual-acuity starts moving towards 20/40 to
20/50 --
(refracitve STATE moves in a negative direction as a natural process)
you simply re-start the preventive effort.

    This is a matter of personal responsibility.  As long as you
pass the DMV or better, you can avoid the minus and stair-case
myopia.

    I will send this to Stirling Colgate, since I am certain he
is as proud of your success as I am.

    But always keep me posted.  "Plus-prevention" is a trade off.

    Use it when necessary -- and be wise about this
second-opinion developed by Steve Leung at:

www.chinamyopia.org

    Best,

    Otis
Mike Tyner - 22 Aug 2006 14:05 GMT
Unless I'm mistaken, Churchill, Shaw and Einstein never studied the effects
of wearing eyeglasses.

Perhaps you could cite some publication that shows a credible comparison
between myopes wearing glasses and myopes who don't?

And, perhaps not.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Aug 2006 17:23 GMT
Dear Ace,

    "I know that most men ...  can seldom accept even the
simplest and most obvious truth if it be such as would oblige them
to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in
explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to
others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the very
fabric of their lives."

    Leo Tolstoy

    The formulation of a problem is often far more essential than
its solution, which may be a matter of mathematical or
experimental skill.  To raise new questions, new possibilities, to
regard old problems from a new angle, requires creative
imagination and marks real advances in science.

    Albert Einstein

    Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately
explained by stupidity.

    Hanlon's Razor

Subject:  The second-opinion on plus-prevention.

    Here is some commentary and a short article on nearsightedness
research -- FYI.

    THIS IS THE DIFFICULT PROBLEM AN OPTOMETRIST WILL HAVE WITH
US IF HE ATTEMPTS TO INTRODUCE PREVENTIVE METHODS WITH US -- AND
WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE METHOD.

For the person who has a low-power minus (-1.0 diopters)
the pseud-myopia statge that we all go through, the
bi-focal is not necessary.   All that is required is to make a habit
of using a "relaxing" +2 diopter lens for all reading and
computer work. The REAL issue is the dicipline it
thakes to do it -- as Jon did it.

Best,

Otis

++++++++++++++++++

From:  "Trying to get myopia into focus"

David Holzman, INSIGHT, Feb 16, 1987

Summary:  Numerous researchers are exploring the causes of myopia
     in order to find ways to prevent its onset in children.  At
     the heart of the problem is uncertainty whether genetics or
     environmental factors such as close work cause the disorder
     or, as some studies have indicated, it is a combination of
     both.  If one geneticist is right, two-thirds of the myopia
     developed by children eventually may be preventable.

    As the eye grows from infancy through late adolescence, the
shape of its lens must remain precisely in tune with the focal
length of the eyeball to maintain clear vision.  Given the level
of precision required, it is a wonder that by the end of high
school only 15 percent to 20 percent of students have become
nearsighted.

<Snip>

    "The human eye is beautifully designed for a life of hunting
for game and foraging for fruit on the savannas of Africa",
Torsten N.  Wiesel of Rockefeller University and Elio Raviola of
the Harvard Medical School wrote last year in THE SCIENCES
MAGAZINE.  "It is a less than ideal optical instrument for
creatures who devote their days to grading papers, reading memos,
and consulting THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

<Snip>

    Animal studies have shed light on the matter but have
raised as many questions as they have answered.  In the early
1960s, Washington State University psychologist Francis A.  Young,
a pioneer in the field, put hoods over monkeys, severely
restricting their vision in order to simulate close-work
conditions.  The monkeys became slightly myopic, which Young
attributed to their eyes being constantly focused on the hoods.
Other researchers considered the experiments to be somewhat
inconclusive because of the mildness of the myopia.  **

** [Since this was published, a great deal more information
  concerning both the chicken and primate eye shows much more
  dramatic effect about the effect both the plus and minus lens have
  on the focal state of the eye.  If you consider these studies and
  effort to establish the fact that the natural eye "follows" the
  visual environment, then the "primate" studies would be conclusive.
  To talk exclusively about a "myopia" and ignore to broad general
  question about the fundamental behavior characteristic of all eyes
  is intellectually blind -- in my opinion.  OSB]

<Snip>

    Despite the fact that results of studies of children who have
been given bifocals are highly equivocal, Theodore Grosvenor of
the University of Houston College of Optometry -- a proponent of
the role of bifocals in the prevention of myopia -- insists that
persistent close work causes myopia.  (In what researchers
generally consider to be the most carefully performed study to
date, the two scientists ** disagree on the results.) Some of the
studies have not borne out his hypothesis, he says, because they
were conducted too late.  "Once the eye has started to stretch, it
may be too late to keep it from stretching," he says, explaining
that most of the children in the study had already become myopic.
"The ultimate study would be to put reading glasses on
first-graders before anyone has developed myopia," he says.

** [One of the scientists was Dr.  Francis Young.  His bifocal
  study showed that a combination of under-correction and a
  strong plus stopped the eye's movement into myopia, i.e.,,
  would help the natural eye maintain clear distant vision
  if used when the eye was at the 20/40 to 20/50 level.
  OSB]

> Unless I'm mistaken, Churchill, Shaw and Einstein never studied the effects
> of wearing eyeglasses.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 22 Aug 2006 18:16 GMT
I must not have been clear. I was asking about comparisions between emerging
human myopes wearing glasses and those who don't. If your "staircase myopia"
is hidden in these comparisons, I couldn't find it.

Shotwell: "At the end of 4 years, the tropicamide refraction showed
approximately -0.25 D of myopic shift in all groups. There were no
significant differences between the myopic shifts in the controls and
experimental groups.

Grosvenor: "For the 124 subjects who completed the study, the mean changes
in refraction were found to be -0.34 D
per year for subjects wearing single vision lenses, -0.36 D per year for
those wearing +1.00 D add bifocals, and -0.34 D per year for those wearing
+2.00 D add bifocals. These differences were not statistically significant."

Goss: "Rates for the experimental and control groups were not significantly
different."

Ong: "based on their wearing patterns, subjects were divided into four
categories: (1) full-time wearers; (2) myopes who switched from distance to
full-time wear; (3) distance wearers; and (4) nonwearers. Exponential
functions were fit to the individual refraction data. The age of onset of
myopia, the mean myopia at onset of spectacle wear, and the refractive shift
over a period of at least 3 years were derived from these fits. Results show
that the 3-year refractive shifts are not significantly different among the
four groups."

Parssinen: "progression cannot be reduced by diminishing accommodation with
bifocals or by reading without spectacles."

Parssinen: "After 2-years follow-up the change in the spherical equivalent
was greatest in the distant use group. There were no significant positive
correlations between changes in refraction and accommodation or refraction
and convergence."

If you like, I can provide the specific citations, along with more, so you
can read those articles yourself. Meantime, would you please tell us where
we can see Dr. Leung's comparisons showing "staircase myopia"?

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Aug 2006 19:45 GMT
Dear Mike,

    THE ESSENCE OF IMAGINATION

    What we can easily see is only a small percentage of what is
possible.  Imagination is having the vision to see what is just
below the surface, to picture that which is essential, but
invisible to the eye.

    How can anyone learn anything new -- who does not find it a
shock?

                      John A. Wheeler

    The task of the physicist is to see through the appearances
down to the underlyling, very simple, symmetric reality.

                     Steven Weinberg

What I said was that SOME ODs preceive the natural, or
fundamental eye as a dynamic system -- versus your
concept -- that it is NOT.

You have every right to your box-camera paradigm, to
the effect that the fundamental eye will not change
its refractive STATE when tested in a pure scientific manner.

Thus you PREDICT that a population of fundamental eyes
will not change their refractive STATE when you place
a -3 diopter lens on them.  But you never
submit your box-camera pardigm to objective,
scientific testing.

Thus your null hypothesis(Ho) would be this for the natural eye.

1.  Take a population of natural eyes and measure all their refractive
STATES.

2. Place a -3 diopter lens on 1/2 of them.

3. Measure the refractive STATES at 2 week intervals for
a year.

4.  Verify Mike's box-camera paradigm, but determining
if a DIFFERENCE in refractive STATE will develop
between the control group (no -3 diopter lens) and
the test group.

I suggest that this scientific test will demonstrate that
you concept of the eye is NOT VERY ACCURATE -- on
a pure-scientific level.

And the very minimium, this test certifies the basis
for the preventive second-opinion as stated by
Steve Leung at:

www.chinamyopia.org

Have a pleasant day.

Best,

Otis

> I must not have been clear. I was asking about comparisions between emerging
> human myopes wearing glasses and those who don't. If your "staircase myopia"
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> -MT
Mike Tyner - 22 Aug 2006 20:16 GMT
> You have every right to your box-camera paradigm, to
> the effect that the fundamental eye will not change
> its refractive STATE when tested in a pure scientific manner.

We were hoping you would document your "staircase myopia" or explain why it
didn't occur in those studies I listed.

Once you do that, then you can teach me statistics.

-MT
LarryDoc - 23 Aug 2006 07:52 GMT
You folks don't get it.

Clearly, reading all Otis in this thread, it is obvious he has now
completed "cracked up", become so completely lost in fantasy he knows
not what is in the real world.

He is in desperate need of professional help and not ridicule and torment

or not
......now back to the reality and hand.

-LB
Quick - 22 Aug 2006 20:42 GMT
MT asks:
> Meantime, would you please tell us where we
> can see Dr. Leung's comparisons showing "staircase myopia"?

otisbrown responds:
> What we can easily see is only a small percentage of
> what is possible.  Imagination is having the vision to
> see what is just below the surface, to picture that which
> is essential, but invisible to the eye.

I guess that pretty much settles it.  lol

-Quick
Jan - 22 Aug 2006 19:01 GMT
otisbrown@pa.net schreef:

several snips made in much blablabla .........

> For the person who has a low-power minus (-1.0 diopters)
> the pseud-myopia statge that we all go through, the
> bi-focal is not necessary.   All that is required is to make a habit
> of using a "relaxing" +2 diopter lens for all reading and
> computer work. The REAL issue is the dicipline it
> thakes to do it -- as Jon did it.

Otis you cite to much, it is "pseudo" not "pseud" (to much Freud)

By any chance, can we expect real recent scientifically proof from your
side , besides your citations from some well known persons, as Mike
Tyner (see below)  did asked?
I'll think Mike is to polite when he said ''And, perhaps not''
Let's say, certainly not.

Otis, charlatan, beat the retread.

>> Unless I'm mistaken, Churchill, Shaw and Einstein never studied the effects
>> of wearing eyeglasses.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> -MT

Free to Marcus Porcius Cato's "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"

In conclusion, I think that the "old plus lens junk recovered by Otis"
should be destroyed.

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
Simon Dean - 22 Aug 2006 18:54 GMT
>      Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>                            Albert Einstein

You f***ing crook, f***ing whore and evil b***ard, trying to leech gain
from the brilliance and genius of others. You should be ashamed.
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Aug 2006 02:43 GMT
Simple Simon,

This thread was adressed to Ace -- and NOT TO YOU.

I do not see why you are getting "huffy" about -- since
you don't know what you are talking about.

Further, people who lurch into vulgar language almost never
have much intelligence about science, or abstract analysis
of the natural eye as a dynamic system.  You DEFINE
your self by your language.

Otis

> >      Dear Ace,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> You f***ing crook, f***ing whore and evil b***ard, trying to leech gain
> from the brilliance and genius of others. You should be ashamed.
serebel - 23 Aug 2006 03:36 GMT
I'd like to know how to prevent escalator myopia for those of us who
live in the city.
Quick - 23 Aug 2006 04:57 GMT
> Simple Simon,
>
> This thread was adressed to Ace -- and NOT TO YOU.

Then you should have used the SCIENTIFIC method and
sent Ace private email...

> Further, people who lurch into vulgar language almost
> never have much intelligence about science, or abstract
> analysis of the natural eye as a dynamic system.

What exactly is "abstract analysis"? Would that be where
you avoid looking at what you're studying? Followed by
waving your hands a lot when you draw your conclusion?

-Quick
Mike Tyner - 23 Aug 2006 08:00 GMT
> You DEFINE
> your self by your language.

And you define yourself by failing to explain why human studies contradict
you.

-MT
Simon Dean - 23 Aug 2006 08:32 GMT
> Simple Simon,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Otis

Caveman Otis,

This is a public newsgroup, not your private selling ground. You want to
communicate with Ace, get his phone number or email address and stop
polluting this forum with your spam.

My language was clearly asterisked out as necessary. Fill those in as
necessary. Don't ever quote the likes of "Albert Einstein" in order to
back up your alternative claims. My language was used to show how
f***ing angry I am.

You're right, I don't have any medical knowledge of my eye. That's not
my field. That's why I ask questions here. But don't credit me with no
intelligence.

I see your obviously supreme "intelligence" can't actually answer
anybodies questions. It has never answered mine, it has never answered
anybody elses. When you're asked a direct question, you go cut and paste
a lengthy document. You are unable to construct a direct response.

Simple? Pot and Kettle.

Cya
Simon
BD - 23 Aug 2006 18:16 GMT
> I see your obviously supreme "intelligence" can't actually answer
> anybodies questions. It has never answered mine, it has never answered
> anybody elses. When you're asked a direct question, you go cut and paste
> a lengthy document. You are unable to construct a direct response.

Otis answers direct questions with either the generic old dogmatic
ramblings, or (as is the case for me) complete absence of any response
whatever.

He also treats people who agree with him (ie Ace) with such
consideration and positive regard... I wonder if he really believes
he's not transparent as glass.

The quotation thing is new, though. At least there's variety in his
style of presentation. New clothes for the Emperor, Otis? Some kind
of... 'quoting people with credibility will somehow improve my own'
approach? All-righty then. You just keep on quoting. See how far it
gets you. I've got a couple of quotes for you, but they're not really
for public consumption. ;)

But, Otis - please don't think anyone is fooled, or distracted from the
essence of your writings. No one is fooled. You're closed-minded
dogmatic, ignorant and arrogant. So it is, so it ever shall be.

And you STILL haven't answered my question on accomodation in primates,
which I asked months ago, and asked several times - all you've said is
that I should conduct the research myself.

Foolish old codger. ;-)
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Aug 2006 19:23 GMT
If you do not like what is posted about the dynamic nature
of the fudamental eye  -- then don't read it.

There -- that was easy.

Otis

+++++++++++

> > I see your obviously supreme "intelligence" can't actually answer
> > anybodies questions. It has never answered mine, it has never answered
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> Foolish old codger. ;-)
BD - 23 Aug 2006 19:29 GMT
> There -- that was easy.

Easy for you, maybe - there's no kf on Google Groups!!!
Simon Dean - 24 Aug 2006 09:50 GMT
> If you do not like what is posted about the dynamic nature
> of the fudamental eye  -- then don't read it.
>
> There -- that was easy.
>
> Otis

OK Kettle, if you don't like what I write about you, or what anybody
else writes, don't read it, and don't respond to it. It would cut down
so much of your spam.
CatmanX - 25 Aug 2006 11:23 GMT
Hey Ace,

Do you want to come and molest boys with me?

I have just bought a bag of boiled lollies.

Yours

Cletis
otisbrown@pa.net - 26 Aug 2006 01:59 GMT
Mr. Grant,

Do you refer to your patients this way -- who ask questions.

Do you privately think of them this way.

I have not heard Ace use vulgar language on you.  He is
more polite than you ever will be.

You do not deserve the respect of anyone here
because of your crude, non-professional ways.

Otis

> Hey Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Cletis
A Lieberma - 26 Aug 2006 04:06 GMT
"otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in news:1156553961.566384.18950
@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com:

> You do not deserve the respect of anyone here
> because of your crude, non-professional ways.

You professional???????  Since you are not doctor, you sure are not a
professional either.  Go to alt.vision.stupididiot Otis.  When are you
going to realize, when you are in Rome, you do what the Romans say.

Allen
Simon Dean - 26 Aug 2006 09:23 GMT
> You do not deserve the respect of anyone here
> because of your crude, non-professional ways.
>
> Otis

"non-professional"? Hahahahahaha.

i've never met a more arrogant ignorant waste of life than you.
Ace - 26 Aug 2006 09:43 GMT
> Mr. Grant,
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Otis

I am not even sure Grant is a doctor, his demeanor is most vulgar.
Grant is one old sick man with abnormal obsessions and dirty mouth. I
respect Neil Brooks, William Stacy, Mike Tyner much more because while
they are M.O optometrists set in their ways, at least they are usually
polite and professional.
CatmanX - 26 Aug 2006 23:38 GMT
I say it as it is Nancy. You are a total w.nker.

Not miuch to add other than that.
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 Aug 2006 20:48 GMT
Dear Ace,

You will find out how an OD (like Grant) thinks of his
patients -- by the way he thinks of your.

Given the "quality" of his language -- I truly fear
for the welfare of the people who "trust" him.

That fact that other M.O. ODs say nothing about
the abuse visited on you by Grant -- tells you
about the nature of their "character".

You NEVER abuse a person if he asks sincere
questions -- as you are doing.

Just remember, their are S.O. ODs who would support
the preventive method with ths plus -- when your refractive STATE
is slightly positive (say +1/4 diopter), zero, or slightly negative.

Provided you RESPECT the eye's behavior (as a dynamic
system -- and proven to be so) you can use this scientific
method -- to your own personal advantage.

If you wish help, then you will find a PREVENTIVE OD
by his statement that he will help you master the
skill of using the plus correctly, and he will
also STATE that he insists that his children
wear a correct-strength plus when their refractive
STATE is zero.

Best,

Otis

> > Mr. Grant,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> they are M.O optometrists set in their ways, at least they are usually
> polite and professional.
CatmanX - 28 Aug 2006 22:31 GMT
You are still a w.nker Cletis, no matter what spin you try to put on
it.

My patients get the best care, best advice and best service available.
This probably comes from their optom having done 25 years of
post-graduate study to ensure his patients get the best and most up to
date treatment available.

As for you and Nancy, I don't have to be nice. You are worms. You suck
and whinge and complain, you scare monger and purport rumour as fact.
You do not deserve respect.

The fact no other optoms comment is a roar of silence supporting me in
my attitude that you are one sick, demented fool.

Now where was that randomised double-blind trial you were going to show
me again Cletis?????????

dr grant
The Second Opinion
drfrank21@gmail.com - 29 Aug 2006 20:08 GMT
> You are still a w.nker Cletis, no matter what spin you try to put on
> it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The fact no other optoms comment is a roar of silence supporting me in
> my attitude that you are one sick, demented fool.

I'd be personally embarrassed if my own patients read some of
your "witty" insults and subject lines, especially the pedophile
references.
You do go way over the top at times and I bet that casual posters
on the fence (after reading your rant(s) ) end up siding with Otis.

You can be far more effective by debunking the fallacies of Otis's
post by sticking to facts and allowing posters to make up their
minds on their own. Otis and Ace will NEVER change their minds
no matter what facts stare them in the face. They are like
religious fanatics (really no difference).  Using obscenity only
lowers you to their level (actually, below).

frank
Scott Seidman - 29 Aug 2006 20:41 GMT
drfrank21@gmail.com wrote in news:1156878535.047193.110630
@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> You can be far more effective by debunking the fallacies of Otis's
> post by sticking to facts and allowing posters to make up their
> minds on their own.

Or even better, ignore them and let Bev's periodic post deal with it.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

CatmanX - 29 Aug 2006 21:58 GMT
Maybe you should take another Valium.

I really don't care that you get upset by my language, and readers will
not side with Cletis and Nancy over anything I say, that is if there
are any readers anyway.

I am not going to stand by and allow these clowns propagate garbage,
and any putdown is acting as a counterpoint to the drivel seeping from
their keyboards.

Anything I say simply puts the nonsense into perspective. It is
meaningless crap that deserves no rational discussion as you can't
argue logic with a fanatic. I simply ask for proof by way of a
randomised double-blind trial. After that, any retort, being related to
Cletis' paedophelia, Nancy's oedipus complex or bed-wetting are fair
game.

If they don't like it, they may elect not to post.

Cheers,

dr grant
drfrank21@gmail.com - 29 Aug 2006 23:11 GMT
> Maybe you should take another Valium.

Maybe you should pop a prozac and chill out
yourself. You arrogantly boasted that no
peers/colleagues  were calling out on your posting
and I took you up on it.

> I am not going to stand by and allow these clowns propagate garbage,
> and any putdown is acting as a counterpoint to the drivel seeping from
> their keyboards.

So be clever; much more effective than outright obscenity. I don't
think pedophilia is funny.Hear of the Jon Bent Ramsey media
circus in the U.S. (Boulder, Co.) and the scary dude that
confessed?? Only the guy is living in a fantasy world??

> Anything I say simply puts the nonsense into perspective. It is
> meaningless crap that deserves no rational discussion as you can't
> argue logic with a fanatic. I simply ask for proof by way of a
> randomised double-blind trial. After that, any retort, being related to
> Cletis' paedophelia, Nancy's oedipus complex or bed-wetting are fair
> game.

No it doesn't.  So who are you embarrassing - Otis/Ace or yourself??

frank
Neil Brooks - 29 Aug 2006 10:38 GMT
> Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Given the "quality" of his language -- I truly fear
> for the welfare of the people who "trust" him.

This is the kind of faulty logic that--especially when it DOES come to
eyes and vision--makes you one senile, dangerous, old man: your
propensity to conflate unrelated issues to form mis-guided conclusions.

Up the dosage, Otis.  Seriously.  If it's more ECT you need, then get
it.
William Stacy - 29 Aug 2006 19:32 GMT
> That fact that other M.O. ODs say nothing about
> the abuse visited on you by Grant -- tells you
> about the nature of their "character".

I don't care for the vulgarity, but it offends me less than the
pseudoscientific and illogical junk you two incessantly bombard people
with.   At least people can understand foul language.

Fortunately, there aren't very many people that use this part of the
internet, or I'd be more concerned than I am. Newsgroups are well known
as the gutter of the internet, and that is well deserved in more ways
than one.

w.stacy, o.d.
Simon Dean - 29 Aug 2006 19:51 GMT
>> That fact that other M.O. ODs say nothing about
>> the abuse visited on you by Grant -- tells you
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> w.stacy, o.d.

unfortunately, you'll find that there are several usenet to web
gateways, and all this junk is filtering out into the mainstream.

so for example, if i say, http://tree.blargle.homeunix.net for my family
tree website, I'll get a few links in return and my page will be ranked
higher in Google!

You know what I mean though!
Neil Brooks - 29 Aug 2006 10:37 GMT
> I am not even sure Grant is a doctor, his demeanor is most vulgar.
> Grant is one old sick man with abnormal obsessions and dirty mouth. I
> respect Neil Brooks, William Stacy, Mike Tyner much more because while
> they are M.O optometrists set in their ways, at least they are usually
> polite and professional.

Your respect means nothing--if not less--to me, and ... as I've said a
thousand times ... I'm not in the eye care business in any way, shape,
or form.  I'm a patient, and I never pretend to be more (unlike you,
Ace).

Neil
otisbrown@pa.net - 30 Aug 2006 05:24 GMT
Dear Ace,

    "All great truths begin as blasphemies."

                        George Bernard Shaw

Given the "reaction" to scientific proof that the natural
eye is a dynamic system -- you can see the validity
of George Shaw's quote.

++++++++++++

    To avoid stair-case myopia -- it is necessary to clear your
vision back to normal, and then just montor your Snellen to make
certain you always PASS all legal visual-acuity requirements.

    That way, you never develop stair-case myopia from an
over-prescribed minus.

+++++++++++++

When a person has LOST the technical-scientific argument,
(that the eye is a dynamic system, and not a box-camera
as presented by the Gullistrand "model", then they
resort to foul language.

Profoundly tragic.  Just read:

www.chinamyopia.org

To recognize there are excellent second-opinion OD who
will work WITH you on plus-prevention -- if you
will work with them before you begin wearing that
wretched minus.

Best,

Otis

> > Mr. Grant,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> they are M.O optometrists set in their ways, at least they are usually
> polite and professional.
William Stacy - 30 Aug 2006 05:58 GMT
>      "All great truths begin as blasphemies."

Maybe, but not all blasphemies become great truths.  In fact most don't
make it, like yours.
Simon Dean - 30 Aug 2006 13:29 GMT
> +++++++++++++
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Profoundly tragic.  

No, people resort to different tactics when it's clear they're arguing
with  an imbecile. If you were to argue with me that the sky was red I'd
call you a f***ing whatever, because you argue things with such passion,
that there is a danger that someone might believe.

But maybe we could include Otis's own personal disclaimer...

Otis Sez: "Because I am not medically trained and because I am averse to
the prospect of being sued for giving advice (medical or otherwise), I
am stating emphatically that everything written here  is
nothing more than my personal opinion and experience. If you want a
medical opinion or advice, you should contact a medical professional.

If something I write seems to be advice, you should re-read
this paragraph and understand that I am only using literary
license to convey my experiences and opinions.    I offer you NO
ADVICE and I do not recommend to anyone that they should subscribe
to any treatment for any condition without proper medical advice,
EVEN IF I TELL YOU THAT I AVOID SOME MEDICAL ADVICE OR TREATMENT
FOR MYSELF."

I think that's the best advice. Otis is not a doctor or medically
trained. If you want medical advice, see a professional. Otis's
ramblings are no substitute. If you want to surrender yourself to what
is nothing more than opinion under "literary license" that's up to you.
Remember, if anything goes wrong, you can't claim damages from him!

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