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Medical Forum / General / Vision / July 2006

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Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???

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studyandjobs@yahoo.com - 26 Jun 2006 05:33 GMT
Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???

Diamonds can now be made in laboratories and can be used for very
unusual purposes.
http://www.studyandjobs.com/diamond.html

or visit
http://www.studyandjobs.com/basicscience_study.htm

regards
jeff - 26 Jun 2006 13:26 GMT
> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> regards

OMG!!! Are these Rocket Scientists???
Real Genuine Synthetic Diamonds, Who would'a thunk.
<cue the vikings>

Signature

jeff

Peter Trei - 26 Jun 2006 15:30 GMT
>> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Real Genuine Synthetic Diamonds, Who would'a thunk.
> <cue the vikings>

It's my suspicion that when the patents run out, around
15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
fall to a realistic level, and deBeers will pack up shop.

For the time being, the profitability of both natural and
synthetic diamonds is maximized by restricting supply.

Peter Trei
John Schilling - 25 Jun 2006 01:44 GMT
>>> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???

>>> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories and can be used for very
>>> unusual purposes.
>>> http://www.studyandjobs.com/diamond.html

>>> or visit
>>> http://www.studyandjobs.com/basicscience_study.htm

>>> regards

>> OMG!!! Are these Rocket Scientists???
>> Real Genuine Synthetic Diamonds, Who would'a thunk.
>> <cue the vikings>

>It's my suspicion that when the patents run out, around
>15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
>fall to a realistic level, and deBeers will pack up shop.

People have been making diamonds in laboratories for more
than fifty years.  The basic patents have long since run
out, and the price of diamonds remains high.

Three reasons.  First, even the most recent, still-patented
techniques, cannot practically duplicate top-end natural
gem-quality diamons.  The one-carat blue-white "flawless",
which is essentially the benchmark of the industry, is
still somthing you have to hunt for in a mine.  Or you
can have one made in a laboratory as a stunt, but you
can't have them mass-produced for sale with any technology
we know of.

Second, people don't *want* synthetic diamond gemstones.
The ones who might have wanted such a thing, have long
since moved on to cubic zirconia or whatever; the ones
who are still buying mediocre half-carat diamonds of the
sort that can be mass-produced in a factory, want them
not for what they intrinsically are but for what they
represent - the closest thing people on a budget can
get to the archetypal one-carat blue-white flawless.
Which is to say, among other things, natural and mined.

Third, the techniques for producing synthetic diamond,
are not themselves cheap.  Well, industrial abrasive
diamond, yes, sort of, but not any sort of synthetic gem
diamond.  Some of them are pure laboratory curiosities
of no practical or economic significance; others can be
industrialized, but you're not going to be seeing the
output at your local 99-cent store any time soon.

>For the time being, the profitability of both natural and
>synthetic diamonds is maximized by restricting supply.

Not really, no.  DeBeers has long since lost its monopoly
in the field; the Australians and Canadians and Russians
provide most of the world's gem diamonds now and each will
gladly fill any supply shortfall the others might try to
create.

The profitability of both natural and synthetic diamonds
is for the most part maximized by increasing demand, by
means of some rather noteworthy and successful advertising
campaigns.  

You might still be able to arrange cheap diamonds, but by
definition nobody will care.

Signature

*John Schilling                    * "Anything worth doing,         *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP       *  is worth doing for money"     *
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BernardZ - 26 Jun 2006 16:27 GMT
> >> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> 15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
> fall to a realistic level, and deBeers will pack up shop.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well equipment can tell them apart!

What is interesting is that deBeers gave Jewelers in Australia free
special equipment to tell them apart because most Jewelers could not
tell them apart!

> For the time being, the profitability of both natural and
> synthetic diamonds is maximized by restricting supply.

That is for sure. The Russians are apparently sitting on a fortune of
diamonds and not selling them for that reason.

> Peter Trei

Signature

Self control is what keeps us from being rapist.

Observations of Bernard - No 100


Erik Max Francis - 26 Jun 2006 20:29 GMT
> It's my suspicion that when the patents run out, around
> 15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
> fall to a realistic level, and deBeers will pack up shop.

I kind of doubt it.  A lot of people who want diamonds for jewelry want
them because they're expensive, not because they're just diamonds.  All
De Beers has to do is keep pumping the idea that their diamonds are what
the consumers want and artificial diamonds are fake, regardless of
whether they're indistinguishable.  De Beers already has methods of
tracking the authenticity of their diamonds, so whether you can't tell
them apart is really irrelevant in that respect.

Diamonds for industrial purposes is another thing, but there already De
Beers doesn't have a lock on that market.

Signature

Erik Max Francis && max@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
 San Jose, CA, USA && 37 20 N 121 53 W && AIM erikmaxfrancis
  But you're not going to be there tomorrow. And it's all about
   tomorrow. -- Montgomery Brogan

Luke Campbell - 27 Jun 2006 02:58 GMT
> I kind of doubt it.  A lot of people who want diamonds for jewelry want
> them because they're expensive, not because they're just diamonds.  All
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tracking the authenticity of their diamonds, so whether you can't tell
> them apart is really irrelevant in that respect.

In addition:  suppose you have a small start-up company that produces
diamond in large crystals.  Do you try to compete in an established
market of luxury baubles already dominated by De Beers, or do you
target the market for high temperature semiconductors, radiation
detectors, and lasers which is currently wide open?  The later requires
moderately priced materials that can compete with silicon, silicon
carbide, and Nd:YAG.  I know I'd try to make my fortune by touting my
product as a superior material for technological applications, and if
flooding the jewelry market with inexpensive diamonds was a by-product
of this, then so much the better.

Luke
Mark A - 27 Jun 2006 03:14 GMT
>> I kind of doubt it.  A lot of people who want diamonds for jewelry want
>> them because they're expensive, not because they're just diamonds.  All
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> tracking the authenticity of their diamonds, so whether you can't tell
>> them apart is really irrelevant in that respect.

Diamonds also come in various colors and clarities. Gem quality diamonds (as
opposed to industrial diamonds) are not cost effective to make in a
laboratory.
Cliff Schuring - 27 Jun 2006 14:38 GMT
To All:
     Diamond material has been created for a long time. Diamond
particles have been created for grinding and polishing compounds for
years. Diamond coatings for thermal transfer for say heat sinks
attached to micropocessors has been available of the shelf. Creating
diamond optically clear films or windows, lenses is around. The problem
is if you look is that De Beers owns the patents on any diamond
material that is considered optically transparent (any wavelenght not
specified in patent) above a certian thickness. Figure out away around
that and you can create your gems in a vacuum chamber fairly simply.
You include what ever impurities you want (a lot of analysis of these
has been done over the years and is in papers) and you would have a
very hard time telling the real from the newly created diamond.

Cliff Schuring

> > I kind of doubt it.  A lot of people who want diamonds for jewelry want
> > them because they're expensive, not because they're just diamonds.  All
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Luke
Peter Trei - 28 Jun 2006 20:43 GMT
>> It's my suspicion that when the patents run out, around
>> 15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Diamonds for industrial purposes is another thing, but there already De
> Beers doesn't have a lock on that market.

The Wikipedia article on "Synthetic Diamond" is informative.

You might want to look at Apollo Diamond
http://www.apollodiamond.com/ who say they will start
selling synthetic colorless diamonds this year.

Gemesis http://www.gemesis.com/home.htm is specializing on
colored diamonds, which actually command a higher price than
mined ones.

The current "custom" of diamond engagement rings actually only
dates back to an advertising campaign by deBeers in the 1940s.

When its possible to buy synthetic diamond jewelry for a
fraction of the current price, and the stones are
distinguishable from mined stones by (a) their lack of
flaws, (b) or by using lab equipment, deBeers is going to
have a real problem on its hands. Most people simply won't
care.

Peter Trei
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 30 Jun 2006 22:04 GMT
> >> It's my suspicion that when the patents run out, around
> >> 15-20 years from now, the price of diamonds will finally
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Peter Trei

Hes right, many people insist on the real thing even when replicas look
identical to the nakid eye. It may be a while before technology can
make synthetic diamonds as perfect as the real thing where no one can
tell any difference. Still I wouldnt invest in diamonds now because
they wont be worth so much years from now. As for diamond lens glasses,
they would cost a fortune to make and probably will consist of hundreds
of tiny diamonds glued together. The chromatic and other aberrations
would make them impratical. They also would be impratical for anything
less than -15 diopters. We have 1.9 index glass(a far cry from 4.0
diamond) and I cant believe how thin those 1.9 glasses are! A -14 was
shown in those glasses and they are about half a centimeter thick or as
thick as standard index -5 glasses! I hear cermics with index as high
as 2.5 is in the works. This will mean super, super high pescriptions,
even -30 can have 2.5 index glasses less than a centimeter thick! No
more cokebottles, no more myodiscs(very poor field of vision)
Salmon Egg - 26 Jun 2006 18:32 GMT
On 6/25/06 9:33 PM, in article
1151296424.239616.62670@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com,

> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> regards

If it should ever come to that, diamond lenses would become the lightest and
highest index lens material. The would impervious to scratching. The biggest
drawback would be the design and application of a decent antireflection
coating. Without a coating, reflectivity at each surface would be about 17%.
Chromatic aberration might be a problem.

Even so, based upon posts here, people will be complaining about thick
lenses and want lighter ones as well.

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
Cliff Schuring - 27 Jun 2006 17:28 GMT
Bill and Salmon Egg,

        Diamond lense are already here about $1700 each and the
company Sixth Element is making them, wild quess who owns them. Thats
right the De Beers, here is a site with a PDF file talking about them.
By the way Intel also uses a lense version for IC analysis on the new
emmi instruments. Enjoy.

http://files.hanser.de/zeitschriften/docs/2669134433-101_eLP100379.pdf

Regards
Cliff

> On 6/25/06 9:33 PM, in article
> 1151296424.239616.62670@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Bill
> -- Ferme le Bush
John Savard - 02 Jul 2006 08:19 GMT
>         Diamond lense are already here about $1700 each and the
>company Sixth Element is making them, wild quess who owns them. Thats
>right the De Beers, here is a site with a PDF file talking about them.
>By the way Intel also uses a lense version for IC analysis on the new
>emmi instruments. Enjoy.

I know one company bought some Russian technology, and was near being
able to commercially make inexpensive yellow diamonds.

Another company was a bit further off with chemical vapor deposition.
Did De Beers buy their technology?

Also, sapphire seems like a very good lens material, because it has not
only a high index, but low dispersion. Diamond has a high dispersion -
and isn't it birefringent too?

In any case, according to the latest issue of Scientific American, a
very thin coating of silver on a lens can produce, at least at a short
range, the ability for that lens, through a partial adoption of
characteristics of negative refraction, to focus light to make details
shorter than its wavelength.

Just the thing to keep Moore's Law going for a few more years!

Of course, there may still be uses for a diamond lens. A flint element
to go with a sapphire lens as the crown?

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
Salmon Egg - 02 Jul 2006 22:24 GMT
On 7/2/06 12:19 AM, in article 44a77263.25199926@news.usenetzone.com, "John
Savard" <seewebsite@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote:

> Also, sapphire seems like a very good lens material, because it has not
> only a high index, but low dispersion. Diamond has a high dispersion -
> and isn't it birefringent too?

Being a cubic crystal, diamond is not birefrinent.

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
John Savard - 03 Jul 2006 12:16 GMT
>Being a cubic crystal, diamond is not birefrinent.

I found out that diamond was not birefringent from a website on diamond
simulants, but although I posted a correction, it didn't show up.

I'm surprised, though. Quartz has the same structure, yet it is
birefringent.

John Savard
http://www.quadibloc.com/index.html
Salmon Egg - 03 Jul 2006 19:00 GMT
On 7/3/06 4:16 AM, in article 44a8fc41.358346@news.usenetzone.com, "John
Savard" <seewebsite@excxn.aNOSPAMb.cdn.invalid> wrote:

> I'm surprised, though. Quartz has the same structure, yet it is
> birefringent.

More antiknowledge. Quartz is indeed birefringent but its crystal class is
trigonal, not cubic.

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
Steve Hix - 26 Jun 2006 21:23 GMT
> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> regards

This was news a few decades ago.
Leonard Migliore - 26 Jun 2006 23:58 GMT
> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???

Even better, diamonds can now be made in factories by Laborers.
Marc VB - 27 Jun 2006 09:02 GMT
Is it possible to stop to spam ou newgroup fr.rec.arts.sf ?
herve.forum@messagerie.net - 27 Jun 2006 09:35 GMT
Marc VB a écrit :

> Is it possible to stop to spam ou newgroup fr.rec.arts.sf ?

fu2 sauvage.

Hervé <YFAB>
doctor_my_eye@msn.com - 03 Jul 2006 17:20 GMT
The real novelty is in the use of carbon from dead relatives to make a
"wearable legacy" in the form of a diamond.  So, if you just can't wait
to wear grandma on your ring finger or really remember your dog Spike,
look at this website:

http://www.lifegem.com/

> Diamonds can now be made in laboratories by Scientists???
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> regards
Salmon Egg - 03 Jul 2006 19:02 GMT
On 7/3/06 9:20 AM, in article
1151943657.356864.164410@h44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,

> The real novelty is in the use of carbon from dead relatives to make a
> "wearable legacy" in the form of a diamond.  So, if you just can't wait
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> regards

Isn't that something like a graven image?

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
 
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