Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2006
Hyperopia in one eye
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romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 14:25 GMT My 4 years old daughter was just diagnosed with hyperopia and amblyopia.
Also I undersrstand that it was diagnosed with functional amblyopia.
I am trying to learn and understand more, what should I do and what are the hopes for normal vision and normal education.
One doctor (A) prescribed: LE: D1+ RE: D5+ and NO occlusion.
The other doctor (B) prescribed: LE: D0.5+ RE: D3.5+ and occlusion.
>From what I read in documents from AOA, amblyopia is now our worst enemy. I am trying to learn as much as I can about the diagnosis, condition treatment and so forth, so I can be able to understand how we should care about her and how we should go with the treatment.
I have no ideea when or if to leave LE occluded, what glasses to order. Also I am not sure, wheather she has binocular vision now, being diagnosed with amblyopia, probably not. What tests should be done, should I seek some abroad vision examination, and so on.
I have read the documents from:
http://www.aoa.org/documents/CPG-16.pdf http://www.aoa.org/documents/CPG-4.pdf
and understood as much as a layman with good knowledge of optics can.
What should I hope for? How much is usually the facultative hyperopia? What should I read/do next? Does she have any stereoscopic vision / depth perception now?
I have a schedule to another eye pediatric specialist in one month, but until then I need to know what I should do. Which presription to follow and so forth.
I have scanned the results of noncycloplegic and cycloplegic optopetrics from both specialists who diagnosed it.
(A) non-cycloplegic <R> SPH / CYL / AXIS +7.25 / +0.25 / 30 +7.00 / +0.50 / 30 * +7.00 / +0.50 / 31 <L> 0.00 / 0.00 / 0 +0.50 / 0.00 / 0 * +0.50 / 0.00 / 0
PD=52mm
cycloplegic <R> SPH / CYL / AXIS +8.25 / +0.50 / 27 +7.75 / +0.50 / 15 * +7.75 / +0.25 / 11 <L> +2.00 / 0.00 / 0 +1.50 / +0.50 / 142 * +1.50 / +0.25 / 135
PD=52mm
(B) non-cycloplegic <R> SPH / CYL / AXIS +5.50 / +1.50 / 44 +5.50 / +1.50 / 44 * +4.75 / +1.25 / 44# AVE: +5.50 / +1.50 / 44
<L> -2.50 / 0.00 / # -0.75 / -1.25 / 28# -0.75 / -1.50 / 53# -1.00 / 0.00 / -1.75 / -0.25 / 51# AVE: -1.00 / +0.00
PD=49mm
cycloplegic <R> SPH / CYL / AXIS +7.50 / +0.75 / 49# +8.25 / +0.75 / 51 +8.50 / +1.00 / 49 +8.25 / +0.75 / 46 AVE: +8.50 / +0.75 / 48
<L> +1.50 / +0.00 / +1.50 / +0.00 / +1.50 / +0.00 / +1.50 / +0.25 / 132 AVE: 1.50 / +0.00
PD=51mm
PS: thanks a lot for any inputs or advices. I don't know if this is the place to ask this, so I apologize if my post is not appropriate for the topic.
Dom - 06 Jun 2006 14:57 GMT This is the right place to ask this.
I'd get the glasses made from doctor (A).
As far as occlusion is concerned, the main reason NOT to do it would be because it's hard to get your daughter to comply with it - it's tough on parents as well as the kid. Maybe doctor A just wanted to let her get used to the glasses first before introducing another level of treatment. But if doctor A agrees with doctor B that your daughter has amblyopia then occlusion is what she needs. I would suggest occlusion for at least a couple of hours per day, and get her to do eye-hand activities such as colouring-in, mazes, etc while she is occluded. Depending on her level of amblyopia this may be difficult at first - as her 'good' eye will be occluded. If in doubt, occluding for 2hrs/day can't do any physical harm.
She may have very little or no stereoscopic vision but this does NOT mean she has no depth perception.
If you are able to post the corrected visual acuity of the left eye, that would be a help. Also, does she have a turned eye (esotropia)?
Dom
> My 4 years old daughter was just diagnosed with hyperopia and > amblyopia. [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > place to ask this, so I apologize if my post is not appropriate for the > topic. romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 15:15 GMT > As far as occlusion is concerned, the main reason NOT to do it would be > because it's hard to get your daughter to comply with it - it's tough on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If you are able to post the corrected visual acuity of the left eye, > that would be a help. Also, does she have a turned eye (esotropia)? We already made glasses from (B) prescription, should we also wait another month to see the pediatric eye specialists opinion? Why (B) presribed only +3.5? (B) said the oclussion must be ALL day or not at all. (A) said we'll wait two months only with glasses then well see.
We tried occluding one eye, for 2 hours last two days, to see how she reacts. Looks like she can do most of the things with no visible impairment. Maybe she does not like TV so much and looses interest. She colours and draw quite well occluded with the glasses (B) on.
Can I do some tests myself while playing with her to know some more information?
I have no ideea what "corrected visual acuity of the left eye" is and where to get if from. Maybe you can explain me, so I know what to ask for at the next scheduled appointment with doctor (C) which is one month away. (C) is a well renowned pediatric OD but she's very busy, so I only hope I can go to her earlier than scheduled.
THANKS! A Ray of light...
Dom - 07 Jun 2006 13:26 GMT >> As far as occlusion is concerned, the main reason NOT to do it would be >> because it's hard to get your daughter to comply with it - it's tough on [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > presribed only +3.5? (B) said the oclussion must be ALL day or not at > all. (A) said we'll wait two months only with glasses then well see. While some do advocate all day occlusion it would only be necessary if your daughter had deep amblyopia that was not responsive to more conservative treatment. It's not a case of 'all or nothing' as part time occlusion can be effective depending on the individual case.
> We tried occluding one eye, for 2 hours last two days, to see how she > reacts. Looks like she can do most of the things with no visible [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > month away. (C) is a well renowned pediatric OD but she's very busy, so > I only hope I can go to her earlier than scheduled. Corrected visual acuity of the left eye is something you might ask the eye doctor for. It is simply the best vision the left eye can achieve with the aid of corrective lenses. It is a guide to the presence or absence of amblyopia. In your country I'm not sure whether you record visual acuities using snellen fractions (e.g. 6/6, 6/9) or decimal notation (e.g. 1,0 or 1,5) which is just a different way of writing the same information. The 20/20 format suggested by another poster is used by Americans who still use feet & inches. Visual acuity in a four year old is not usually measured by asking the child to read a row of letters, but there are alternative methods.
Dom
> THANKS! A Ray of light... romulus.mare@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:34 GMT > In your country I'm not sure whether you record > visual acuities using snellen fractions (e.g. 6/6, 6/9) or decimal > notation (e.g. 1,0 or 1,5) which is just a different way of writing the > same information. As I have seen the chart recently I can only tell there are some fractions.
Is there any reason for a doctor not to test this? Also there were two devices used. One seem just like a photo machine, the other was very similar but had some prism in front of the lens. Can someone explain me why there are two, and what differences are between those.
Thanks, Romulus
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:46 GMT As I understand now, the basic principle for curing amblyopia is forcing the use of the not so good eye. But this means in my mind that corrected visual acuity of the amblyopic eye, should be close to normal in order that the brain trains/learns to use the amblyopic eye while patched/atropine drops are used.
Is this a correct assumption?
Why then only D3.5+ is prescribed along with ALL DAY occuding of the eye?
How much the latent hiperopia can measure usually to overcome the additional diopries? In my view the factultative hyperopia plus the glasses dioptries should bring the amblyopic eye in range of latent hyperopia that the eye can accomodate without strain/symptoms.
Is this correct?
If so, why they prescribed only D3.5+? Is the possible range of latent hyperopia so large? Will the amblyopic eye cure when the image is not in focus?
Another questions are... Judging from my posted data and no amblyopia. What she will with no glases? Hyperopia is farsightedness, but my question is, because it is so large, all objects regardless distance are blurred? Only the close ones? Can someone try to describe what she should see?
Another question: to experience the same vision (no amblyopia taken in account) if I have D0 on my eyes, placing a D8- on one of my eyes will form the image behind my retina exactly as in her case?
Me and my wife are scheduled on Friday to an eye exam. We rescheduled the daughter for 06.17 but I want to be prepared to put the right questions to the doctors.
Dom - 08 Jun 2006 14:43 GMT > As I understand now, the basic principle for curing amblyopia is > forcing the use of the not so good eye. But this means in my mind that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is this a correct assumption? Yes
> Why then only D3.5+ is prescribed along with ALL DAY occuding of the > eye? Well some would agree with you and argue that more than +3.50 could have been prescribed. But at the same time others would argue that you should leave a hyperopic eye a little undercorrected to allow for the process of emmetropisation (the hyperopic eye to become less hyperopic as the child grows, through a feedback mechanism).
> How much the latent hiperopia can measure usually to overcome the > additional diopries? In my view the factultative hyperopia plus the > glasses dioptries should bring the amblyopic eye in range of latent > hyperopia that the eye can accomodate without strain/symptoms. > > Is this correct? Sorry I don't understand your question above. What do you mean by factultative (it is not an English word, at least that I know of).
> If so, why they prescribed only D3.5+? Is the possible range of latent > hyperopia so large? Will the amblyopic eye cure when the image is not > in focus? Good question, and it MAY be that +3.50 is not enough. However when you have a very large difference between the right & left lens in glasses this can cause other problems, and perhaps this is what the prescriber had in mind. Me, I probably would have prescribed more plus - but then I didn't test your daughter's eyes.
> Another questions are... Judging from my posted data and no amblyopia. > What she will with no glases? Hyperopia is farsightedness, but my > question is, because it is so large, all objects regardless distance > are blurred? Only the close ones? Can someone try to describe what she > should see? She is using her 'good' eye most of the time and she can probably see most things reasonably well, but sustaining detailed focus for prolonged periods (such as when reading) would be hard.
> Another question: to experience the same vision (no amblyopia taken in > account) if I have D0 on my eyes, placing a D8- on one of my eyes will > form the image behind my retina exactly as in her case? It's next to impossible for you to simulate accurately what she sees, mainly because even if you simulated her vision, her young eyes have a much greater capacity than yours to accommodate for the hyperopia. Also, vision is about more than just blur, other factors such as strain, comfort etc come into it. Thirdly, your expectations of clarity are higher than hers so she doesn't know what she's missing out on and is probably quite happy with her vision.
> Me and my wife are scheduled on Friday to an eye exam. We rescheduled > the daughter for 06.17 but I want to be prepared to put the right > questions to the doctors. Dom
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 08 Jun 2006 15:11 GMT > [...] > > How much the latent hiperopia can measure usually to overcome the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > factultative (it is not an English word, at least that I know of). > [...] Thanks Dom.
Sorry for the typo above. I wanted to say: facultative hyperopia. Actually, as I undestand now, hyperopia can be classified in more than one way.
In my understanding that facultative hyperopia represents hyperopia that can be overcome by accomodation. Also latent hyperopia is the one that it is normally overcame by accomodation.
How much is normally at age 4, latent hyperopia? How much is usually facultative hyperopia?
Also another question: She's wearing occulus dextrus: 3.5+ / occulus sinistra: 0,5+ spectacles for a week now. I noticed that her suspected amblyopic eye (OD) seem to be more esotropic than before. Is this something normal?
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 08 Jun 2006 15:14 GMT Sorry. My daughter has a little bit of exotropia, not esotropia I mistakenly wrote above.
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 15:19 GMT > She may have very little or no stereoscopic vision but this does NOT > mean she has no depth perception. It's probably that I am confused. Can you detail? Are they not connected?
> If you are able to post the corrected visual acuity of the left eye, > that would be a help. Also, does she have a turned eye (esotropia)? Very, very little. I don't know where they know, I already posted all info, I received from (A) and (B). But yes, we noticed, when tired and so forth, that one eye is a bit turned.
http://coloc.interscope.ro/images/IMG_6293.jpg
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2006 15:33 GMT Dear Romulus,
You asked about the child's visual acuity.
Visual Acuity is determined by having the person read a Snellen chart at 20 feet.
Thus if the child reads 20/70, then her visual acuity would be 20/70.
If a lens is used, and "clears" the 20/20 line, then her "corrected" visual acuity is 20/20.
If the "best" corrected is 20/40 -- then that is generally ascribed to amblyopia.
You have only posted refractive state information -- no visual acuity data.
Hope this clears up this issue. Your OD can explain this issue in greater detail.
Best,
Otis
++++++++++
> > She may have very little or no stereoscopic vision but this does NOT > > mean she has no depth perception. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > http://coloc.interscope.ro/images/IMG_6293.jpg romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 15:59 GMT Thanks Otis,
> You asked about the child's visual acuity. > > Visual Acuity is determined by having the person > read a Snellen chart at 20 feet. Yes, she did some test but only with doctor (A). However, she's 4 years old, can read only some letters and cannot rely too much on such a test. The OD placed some glasses on her eyes, covered one eye, and aksed her to describe some pair of images 20 feet away (car, dice, etc).
With the good left eye, she told all from up to bottom. With the right eye, basically she could not tell anything, but I am in doubt that she could not see the big images or she was lost, scared, upset about cycloplegic drops, and so forth.
More than this she was cooperative up to some point, it was too much for her, two eye doctors in one week. Also, she seem to already know the incomfort from the drops and not liked them very much.
So, are there any other tests which can be done to measure Visual Acuity? I could not see any impairment when the good eye was occluded? Is this any indication of anything?
Thanks again, Romulus
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2006 16:12 GMT Dear Romulus,
Visual Acuity is defined by being able to read letters at 20 feet.
Some charts will use "E"s up down and sidewize.
Your child should be able to tell the DIRECTION of the "E".
That is how you can determine your child's visual acuity.
You could do this at home if you had the chart. I think you can find some at:
www.i-see.org
Your OD should be willing to assist you in this "non-pressure" setting (at home) for your child.
I am not a "doctor" -- but this is basic information -- and can be confirmed by your current optometrist or ophthalmolgist.
It sounds like your child's VA is better than 20/40.
Amblyopia is (in general) defined as the inability to "clear" the eyechart with a lens.
And the standard method is to occlude the better eye.
But you should establish the visual acuity of the poorer eye.
Best,
Otis
> Thanks Otis, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Thanks again, > Romulus Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2006 16:55 GMT Ask anybody else on this forum ...
Stay FAR away from any advice offered by Otis Brown or acemanvx@yahoo.com.
You'll see why soon enough.
My sincere wishes for the best possible outcome with your daughter. There are excellent, caring docs on this forum that will be very helpful to you. Just ignore the other two.
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 19:10 GMT > My sincere wishes for the best possible outcome with your daughter. > There are excellent, caring docs on this forum that will be very > helpful to you. Just ignore the other two. Thanks a lot. After the initial shock, we're now searching some light at the end of the tunnel, and we're trying to evaluate, the best and the worst scenarios we may face. Also the hardest thing is now choosing a good doctor to stick with, that's why I will try to present here any information I might have, and along with what I research myself to pick one doctor and stick with him/her for all future checkups.
Romulus
otisbrown@pa.net - 07 Jun 2006 14:18 GMT Dear Romulus,
The purpose in asking you to check the child's visual acuity is to determine the amount of amblyopia she has.
If you decide to eye-patch the good eye, then it is necessary to know exactly her visual acuity to see if she can function with the amblyopic eye.
If naked-eye is 20/40 to 20/50 -- then shes should be able to function with no lens and an eye-patch.
The European system is to use the fraction:
20/20, or 6/6 as "1".
Then
20/40, or 6/12 is 1/2 or 0.5
and so forth.
Auto-frefractors are not accurat, and should not be trusted.
Better is to just check youself -- if you can.
Best,
Otis
++++++++
> Thanks Otis, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Thanks again, > Romulus Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2006 15:14 GMT > The purpose in asking you to check the child's visual > acuity is to determine the amount of amblyopia she > has. Then you might offer some suggestions for testing a four year old.
> If you decide to eye-patch the good eye, then > it is necessary to know exactly her visual acuity > to see if she can function with the amblyopic eye. And you would do that... how?
> Auto-frefractors are not accurat, and should > not be trusted. Do you know how often autorefractors overestimate hyperopia?
> Better is to just check youself -- if you can. The OP asked for techniques. You have contributed exactly nothing.
-MT
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 15:23 GMT > Do you know how often autorefractors overestimate hyperopia? Thanks Mike. Is this common? I mean what methods are there to measure hyperopia?
Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2006 19:40 GMT >> Do you know how often autorefractors overestimate hyperopia? > > Thanks Mike. Is this common? I mean what methods are there to measure > hyperopia? It isn't common at all. More important, when autorefractors are off, they _underestimate_ hyperopia, so given several readings, the most hyperopic is usually most accurate. The intrinsic error (accommodation) is also a problem with the other "objective" measuring technique, retinoscopy.
Reviewing your results, the child's true hyperopia is probably about +950 in the right and +300 in the left. Pure speculation, of course, but a reasonable guess, rounding in astigmatism as the spherical equivalent.
Not necessarily a helpful guess. The exact numbers aren't really helpful, nor is the exact acuity. What's important is getting the aniso corrected and making sure both eyes develop the neurological reflexes necessary to fuse and get stereopsis.
I have to leave town for a couple of days. I wish you well finding guidance.
-MT, OD
Philip D Izaac - 08 Jun 2006 09:31 GMT > Dear Romulus, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If naked-eye is 20/40 to 20/50 -- then shes should > be able to function with no lens and an eye-patch. No lens and an eye-patch
You are again offering medical advice. Do you even understand the consequences of your sugestion.
Best
Roland J. Izaac
> Best, > > Otis A Lieberman - 07 Jun 2006 03:26 GMT > Dear Romulus, Romulus,
Please disregard Otis's postings. He is not in the medical profession nor is in any position to provide medical advice.
Thank you!
Allen
Dom - 07 Jun 2006 13:15 GMT >> She may have very little or no stereoscopic vision but this does NOT >> mean she has no depth perception. > > It's probably that I am confused. Can you detail? Are they not > connected? Yes they are connected but they are not the same thing. Stereopsis is when the brain compares & combines the two slightly different images from the right & left eyes. Stereopsis is a part of depth perception, but you can still have depth perception with only one eye, by using other factors such as relative movement, image size, etc etc. Stereopsis is an advantage for certain activities but is not essential for a happy life.
If her amblyopia is relatively mild then she may in fact have reasonable stereopsis anyway.
>> If you are able to post the corrected visual acuity of the left eye, >> that would be a help. Also, does she have a turned eye (esotropia)? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://coloc.interscope.ro/images/IMG_6293.jpg Dr Judy - 06 Jun 2006 17:48 GMT > My 4 years old daughter was just diagnosed with hyperopia and > amblyopia. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > RE: D3.5+ > and occlusion. Don't panic, age 4 is early enough to correct her vision with good results. Either doctor's advice could be taken, it is important to pick a doctor once you have a second opinion and stick with him/her; bouncing between docs, switching treatment and so on will cause problems.
Without knowing her best corrected acuity and thus the depth of amblyopia it is hard to give more advice. Personally, if the amblyopia was not too deep, I would usually treat conservatively like Dr A has. He is giving close to full correction then waiting to see if Mother Nature will do the rest. After 6 to 8 weeks of wearing the glasses, she should be reassessed. If the amblyopia is gone, great. If not, then patching can start.
Dr B is giving less correction to the left eye so Mother Nature is less likely to help and patching will be needed. Dr B should have instructed you in how many hours a day and when to come back, if he didn't call his office and ask. Usually acuity is checked every two weeks during patching. Likely Dr B is planning on increasing the correction as she adapts so at the end of day she will be weaing glasses similar to Dr A's prescription.
If your daughter does not have an eye turn while wearing glasses, the odds are very good that she will have normal vision in both eyes in a few months; she will need to continue to wear glasses or contact lenses. And be reassured that even if the amblyopia went untreated that it would not interfere with her education.
Dr Judy
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 19:05 GMT > If your daughter does not have an eye turn while wearing glasses, the > odds are very good that she will have normal vision in both eyes in a > few months; she will need to continue to wear glasses or contact > lenses. And be reassured that even if the amblyopia went untreated > that it would not interfere with her education. Thanks for your post.
So the best outcome we may hope for is wearing D6-7+ on right eye throughout all her life? Can we hope for emmetropization or at least a reduction of hypermetropia in just one eye? After what age reffractive surgery can be performed? As I know now, the development of the eyes stops at 9-10 years of age.
Shouldn't ambylopia scare us? I thought that the vision can be damaged irreversible by this if untreated.
Thanks Dr. Judy, Romulus
Mike Tyner - 06 Jun 2006 19:50 GMT > So the best outcome we may hope for is wearing D6-7+ on right eye > throughout all her life? Can we hope for emmetropization or at least a > reduction of hypermetropia in just one eye? Not very likely. At age 9 or 10 it becomes common to see myopia develop, and that might be beneficial but it's usually pretty symmetrical left and right.
> After what age reffractive > surgery can be performed? As I know now, the development of the eyes > stops at 9-10 years of age. Refractive surgery isn't very promising for +6.00, except "clear lens replacement" which isn't reasonable at this age.
With a reliable and dexterous kid, I might recommend a single soft contact lens as early as age 6 or 7. I would use the minimum lens power that brings both eyes into equal hyperopia, assuming she can maintain "fusion" (binocular vision) with this minimal correction. I would use an overnight lens like Acuvue Oasys but recommend she take it out at night.
> Shouldn't ambylopia scare us? I thought that the vision can be damaged > irreversible by this if untreated. No reason for alarm. The only danger is in letting it go untreated. At this age, with competent management, there's every reason to expect the "bad" eye to reach 20/20 or 20/25, functionally "normal."
BTW; despite Otis, it isn't crucial to know the precise visual acuity right now. The specialist will have better techniques. He or she will probably recommend a patching regimen, or may use eye drops to blur the _good_ eye, instead of patching.
-MT
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 20:05 GMT > > So the best outcome we may hope for is wearing D6-7+ on right eye > > throughout all her life? Can we hope for emmetropization or at least a > > reduction of hypermetropia in just one eye? > > Not very likely. At age 9 or 10 it becomes common to see myopia develop, and > that might be beneficial but it's usually pretty symmetrical left and right. Okay. So we only can hope for a reduction in both eyes but the anisometropia (the difference) is likely to remain the same, correct?
> > Shouldn't ambylopia scare us? I thought that the vision can be damaged > > irreversible by this if untreated. > > No reason for alarm. The only danger is in letting it go untreated. At this > age, with competent management, there's every reason to expect the "bad" eye > to reach 20/20 or 20/25, functionally "normal." Thanks. Will follow our chosen OD for it with hope. Also minor esotropia will correct itself after a while?
> BTW; despite Otis, it isn't crucial to know the precise visual acuity right > now. The specialist will have better techniques. He or she will probably > recommend a patching regimen, or may use eye drops to blur the _good_ eye, > instead of patching. Thanks Mike, I really appreciate your input.
Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2006 20:19 GMT >Thanks. Will follow our chosen OD for it with hope. Also minor >esotropia will correct itself after a while? I'm in a bit over my depth here, as usual, because I'm a patient, not a doc, BUT ... was a high hyperope at birth, congenital/infantile esotrope, amblyopic, and had/have astigmatism.
Wondering aloud (not recommending) about getting to a pediatric ophthalmologist. From what I'm hearing, there may be other factors that should guide how much plus is pushed (like alignment, to the extent that it's accommodative esotropia) in addition to simply balancing the acuities, no?
Also ... and, again, wondering out loud ... reading glasses/bifocals/contact lenses AND over-Rx reading glasses (all beginning with the appropriate underlying Rx, of course)?
ISTM that the esotropia has to be factored in here--primarily to determine whether it's strictly accommodative in nature or not, and--to the degree that it's not--whether it's severe enough to warrant any interventions on its own (whether via prisms or surgery or ?).
I would also solicit the opinions of these and other docs regarding the appropriateness of vision training to help your daughter improve/maintain good accommodative and vergence facility--something that will likely be stressed by her vision issues.
Last, contact lenses induce LESS accommodative effort in hyperopes than do spectacles (in addition to the obvious optical issues, peripheral vision, cosmesis, etc.), so ... back to Mike Tyner's point ... if it were me ... and I were 4yo again ... I'd hope to be pushed into CL's asap.
Where are you, geographically? I *love* my strabismus ophthalmologist ... and I've (literally) been seen by all the best. He's in Southern California (San Diego). If you're interested, just let me know.
Again ... all the best,
Neil
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 22:02 GMT > Where are you, geographically? I *love* my strabismus ophthalmologist > ... and I've (literally) been seen by all the best. He's in Southern > California (San Diego). If you're interested, just let me know. Hi Neil, thanks for all your help. We're in Bucharest, Romania. These days, it's not a problem to go for a consult or surgery in any part of the world, but as I understand now, eye treatment is something long-term, and the stability over a treatment course set by a doctor is far more important by anything else.
Thanks, Romulus
Mike Tyner - 06 Jun 2006 21:43 GMT > Okay. So we only can hope for a reduction in both eyes but the > anisometropia (the difference) is likely to remain the same, correct? That's the best assumption.
> Thanks. Will follow our chosen OD for it with hope. Also minor > esotropia will correct itself after a while? This sort of ET hopefully resolves itself given adequate correction and normal reflexes. It isn't important to correct the hyperopia completely, but it's crucial to obtain fusion, at least part-time, and learn to use the eyes together. Most kids are mildly hyperopic. The more hyperopic, the more one eye tends to cross. Once they've learned normal fusion and developed stereopsis, it's only a cosmetic problem, as it happens when they're tired, or not wearing correction, etc.
-MT
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 22:14 GMT > This sort of ET hopefully resolves itself given adequate correction and > normal reflexes. It isn't important to correct the hyperopia completely, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stereopsis, it's only a cosmetic problem, as it happens when they're tired, > or not wearing correction, etc. So, following available treatments can we expect the following?
- almost normal CVA resolution for amblyopia with hard work - possible reduction of hyperopia in both eyes until eye development complete - no reduction in hyperopia difference (anisometropia) - no etropia - corrective CL or EG on one eye, while no surgery performed - eye surgery to correct hyperopia after age of 18
Is this the best scenario that can be imagined? What's the worst?
Thanks, Romulus
Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2006 09:56 GMT > - almost normal CVA resolution for amblyopia with hard work > - possible reduction of hyperopia in both eyes until eye development > complete > - no reduction in hyperopia difference (anisometropia) > - no etropia > - corrective CL or EG on one eye, while no surgery performed Those are all pretty realistic, with good care.
> - eye surgery to correct hyperopia after age of 18 There may be a good surgical technique for treating hyperopia in 15 more years. Right now there isn't.
-MT
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2006 13:25 GMT > > - almost normal CVA resolution for amblyopia with hard work > > - possible reduction of hyperopia in both eyes until eye development [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Those are all pretty realistic, with good care. Thanks. Good care thing is in our hands. What's in our hands and depends only on us, will be done regardless efforts.
> > - eye surgery to correct hyperopia after age of 18 > > There may be a good surgical technique for treating hyperopia in 15 more > years. Right now there isn't. It was my impression also, that all techniques are not wide spread and more or less experimental. Anyway, surgery is too far away and my primary concerns are about childhood and proper development both physical and pshycological.
Thanks, Romulus
Anon E. Muss - 06 Jun 2006 20:10 GMT >My 4 years old daughter was just diagnosed with hyperopia and >amblyopia. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >RE: D3.5+ >and occlusion. I, like the other two eye doctors who have posted follow-up articles in this thread, normally do not immediately patch amblyopes -- especially ones so young because vision often improves with spectacles alone.
The sooner you begin therapy on an amblyope, the better the long-term prognosis chances, but you've got quite a bit of time here before you need to be concerned about the amblyopia not being amenable to treatment. This time frame in months and years, not days/weeks, but once again, certainly the sooner the better.
As far as the exact Rx and treatment, there is a lot of art and opinion rather than cut and dry. Some doctors patch, while others use atropine penalization -- there are dis/advantages to each method.
I wouldn't say Doctor "B" is "wrong" and "Doctor A" is right, especially without examining the child. And even after I examined the child, I might think, "Well, it could go either way." as far as how to treat her.
>I have no ideea when or if to leave LE occluded, what glasses to >order. I would pick a doctor and make sure your daughter follows her instructions religiously. Failure with amblyopia therapy with someone like your daughter almost invariably occurs because of patient compliance with therapy rather than whether you choose doctor "A" or doctor "B"'s therapy.
Make sure you/your daughter do exactly what the doctor instructs, and maintain all follow-ups. And if you have a question, obtain a consult with another pediatric eye specialist and have your medical records sent to his office. He should be able to go over all the findings and determine whether that doctor is following the commonly accepted standards-of-care when it comes to treating your daughter, and whether your daughter is responding to treatment as expected.
>Also I am not sure, wheather she has binocular vision now, being >diagnosed with amblyopia, probably not. What tests should be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >http://www.aoa.org/documents/CPG-16.pdf >http://www.aoa.org/documents/CPG-4.pdf I would also recommend the following website:
<http://public.pedig.jaeb.org/Completed_Studies.htm>
>and understood as much as a layman with good knowledge of optics can. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >until then I need to know what I should do. Which presription to follow >and so forth. [snip]
>PS: thanks a lot for any inputs or advices. I don't know if this is the >place to ask this, so I apologize if my post is not appropriate for the >topic. It sounds like you have already done a lot, and as a father, I understand the intensity of your concern when it comes to your daughter.
However, if I was a lay-person, I personally would put a lot more weight on the advice given to me by a known eye specialist that actually physically examined my daughter than a, potential, "keyboard Rambo" posting an article on the Usenet. But that's just me... :)
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 06 Jun 2006 22:07 GMT > It sounds like you have already done a lot, and as a father, I > understand the intensity of your concern when it comes to your [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > actually physically examined my daughter than a, potential, "keyboard > Rambo" posting an article on the Usenet. But that's just me... :) Well, I completely agree with your statement. I am not trying to get help directly here on the internet. I am more interested to really understand what's going on, what is the prognosis and what options we have. Moreover, it's important for me to get in touch with people outside my country where eye specialists have more up-to-date information about latest research. I am not saying we do not have good eye specialists here. I am just saying it's hard to find those who really know the latest developments and trends.
Learning will also help to discuss using the same language as doctors, not being forced to use layman terms, forcing doctor into some delicate explanations.
I also feel the need to get over this shock, and it certainly helps my moral these days.
Afterall I am using the net for most of my work and business, why not for helping my daughter.
Thanks, Romulus
David Robins, MD - 07 Jun 2006 07:02 GMT Doctor A found a cycloplegic difference between the eyes of 5.75D, and Doctor B found about 7D, if I am reading it right. Niehter Doctor A nor Doctor B prescribed glasses taking this full difference into account. The most was a 4D difference.
Now, since the cause of the amblyopia is one eye being out of focus when the other is in focus, the treatment must consist of putting both in focus AT THE SAME TIME. Meaning, you need the full difference in the glasses. Depending in who you believe, it is either 5.75 or 7 diopters difference. However, the list of numbers you showed lead me to believe this comes off an automatic refractor. This may or may not be accurate, depending on the fixation of each eye, and whether there are aberrations the autorefractor can't interpret. In general, I trust my own retinoscopy (using my brain), rather than trusting it to the autorefractor.
Without knowing the level of vision, and whether the eyes are truly straight, I cannot recommend how much to cut the prescription, if all. Any cut must be made equally from both eyes, so the lenses stay balanced for the anisometropia.
At this age, IF the eyes are straight, the act of simply placing both eyes in corect focus may allow the brain to use them, and the amblyopia may slowly go away. If not, penalization (patching, or atropine drops if there is not too much amblyopia) can be added later. I wouldn't expect a huge change in a month or two, even, and only if the correct prescription is used. If only 4 diopters of the 5.75 or 7 diopter is prescribed, that still leaves the "bad" eye 1.75 to 3 diopters out of focus. It only takes about 1.5 difference to cause amblyopia in the first place, so leaving a big difference will onl impede improvement.
If the eyes are not straight, the amblyopic eye will still be ignored, and patching can commence at the beginning.
David Robins, MD Board certified Ophthalmologist Pediatric ophthalmology and adult strabismus subspecialty
On 6/6/06 6:25 AM, in article 1149600306.676033.255760@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com,
> My 4 years old daughter was just diagnosed with hyperopia and > amblyopia. [quoted text clipped - 109 lines] > place to ask this, so I apologize if my post is not appropriate for the > topic. romulus.mare@gmail.com - 08 Jun 2006 13:31 GMT I found on wikipedia the following:
"The power of the eye's lens and cornea together is very high, about 40 dioptres, and the normal accommodation range of a young person is a further 15 to 20 dioptres. Most of the power comes from the curvature of the front face of the cornea, while the accommodation derives from the soft internal lens being squashed by muscles. As we get older, accommodation reduces, to about 10 dioptres at age 25 and around 1 dioptre or less at 50 and over, hence the almost universal need for older people to use reading glasses."
Is this accurate?
Dr Judy - 08 Jun 2006 16:55 GMT > I found on wikipedia the following: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Is this accurate? Sort of. The total refractive power of the eye, cornea and lens, is 60D to 65D, 40 to 45 from the cornea and 15 to 20 from the lens. An additional 15D or so can be added for near point tasks via accommodation which does, in fact, reduce as we age.
Accommodation is not the lens being squashed by muscles; it is the lens relaxing so as to increase thickness, decrease diameter and increase refractive power by relaxation of supporting zonules. They relax by contraction of a muscle.
Dr Judy
Mike Tyner - 09 Jun 2006 00:05 GMT > Is this accurate? Almost all of it. The lens isn't "squashed" during accommodation, but it does thicken by natural elasticity, much as if it were.
Yes, as to presbyopia, almost everyone with corrected distance vision will notice problems up close by age 45.
-MT
romulus.mare@gmail.com - 09 Jun 2006 15:24 GMT So we did an eye exam, both me and my wife. Both we have minor astigmatism.
me: <R> +0.00 -0.50 115 96 <L> +0.00 +0.25 3 VAO: 20/20 (-1)
I felt like I could go on...
wife: <R> -1.00 -0.50 80 <L> -1.00 -0.25 3 VAO 20/20 (-1)
The doctor tested me also on some green/red background snellen chart. Looks like on red background left eye is a bit blurred. What was this test for? Why my wife was not tested?
We have one week for another test with the daughter...
Mike Tyner - 09 Jun 2006 16:26 GMT > The doctor tested me also on some green/red background snellen chart. > Looks like on red background left eye is a bit blurred. What was this > test for? Why my wife was not tested? The red-green technique is just one of several methods for determining your refraction. Each practitioner has his/her own preference and other techniques give excellent results.
Red light and green light have slightly different properties. Green light focuses closer to the lens and red light focuses a little further away. The oculist starts with too much plus power, then adds minus until the green letters just become clear.
The result can be a pretty precise measure of your refraction, assuming astigmatism has been corrected and accommodation is stable. Accommodation can be too variable for a technique as precise as RG, so it's usually used as a final balancing technique, to assure both eyes are corrected equally.
Even those who prefer the RG balance technique won't use it all the time.
-MT
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