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Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2006

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Dont do it! I wish I had not, my eyes are a mess now!

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malcontent - 29 May 2006 02:52 GMT
Hello everyone. I am informing all of you about the dangers and evils
of lasik. I had great correctable vision with thick glasses. One eye
was in the -7 range, the other at -8. One day I heard an AD for lasik
and how it was the 15 minute miracle. This intrigued me so I scheduled
a consultation. I was declared the "perfect" candidate and told about
all the "wonders" lasik had to offer. I even got to talk to the other
patients who had lasik. All of them loved it and said it was a miracle.
I never even heard anything bad about lasik. Excited, I scheduled my
surgury. Five minutes before I was to be led into the operating room, I
was handed a consent form. When I read about the risks, I got worried
but was assured the odds were one in a million and theres always
"enhancements" to fix any complications. Too groggy from the sedation
and out of time to read the consent form carefully, I just signed. My
glasses were removed and I was told I wont be needing them ever again.
This was the last time I ever saw clearly. After my lasik was done, I
was led back into the waiting room with very blurry vision. When the
surgeon came to check my eyes, he said everything was fine. He showed
me an eyechart and I could only read the top three lines. He said dont
worry, your 20/200 vision will become 20/20 the next morning. Have a
good night's sleep. The next morning when I woke, my vision was still
blurry and didnt improve much. My eyes felt extremely dry and the
eyedrops only helped for ten minutes. I wasn't even going to drive so
my husband had to drive me. The surgeon was too busy to see me for more
than three minutes and he just said im healing along fine even though I
was only 20/70. He gave me another bottle of eyedrops and my husband
drove me back home. A week after my lasik, I started getting worried
because my vision was not good. Everything was hazy, the contrast
terrible and I was seeing some doubling in each eye! A big mess! At my
week appointment I tested out at 20/40 and I asked why everything was
so blurry and why I was seeing some doubling. He said I had a
"residual" pescription and that if it didn't improve in three months I
can get "enhancement"
In the meantime he pescribed me temp glasses because I was being
"picky" about my 20/40 vision which he considered a "success" When I
picked up those glasses a few days later and put them on, I felt panic!
Surely those couldn't be the right glasses! They were next to useless,
my vision still blurry, hazy and much of the doubling remained.

Only after did lasik make a mess of my eyes did I find the truth! I had
been lied to and never informed of the risks and the fact lasik damages
every eye by inducing aberrations and astigmatism! I did not have any
astigmatism before lasik, now I do! I also have very dry eyes and need
eyedrops many times a day. I feel legally blind at night and absolutely
can't drive, in fact I don't see much at night. My vision is quite bad
even during the day and that annoying doubling won't go away! My
corneas are too thin for an "enhancement" and they will just ruin my
eyes further. To summarize it, don't get lasik! You will regret it
forever!
William Stacy - 29 May 2006 04:16 GMT
> Hello everyone. I am informing all of you about the dangers and evils
> of lasik. I had great correctable vision with thick glasses. One eye
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> eyes further. To summarize it, don't get lasik! You will regret it
> forever!
William Stacy - 29 May 2006 04:20 GMT
(sorry for the empty response)
William Stacy - 29 May 2006 04:19 GMT
Sorry you had such a bad experience; your story is unusual, and I'm
especially concerned that your corneas are too thin for a secondary
procedure.  Usually they don't take much off during a "touch up" and I'm
wondering if you were maybe too thin to start with.  Anyway, how long
has it been since the surgery?

w.stacy, o.d.

> Hello everyone. I am informing all of you about the dangers and evils
> of lasik. I had great correctable vision with thick glasses. One eye
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
> eyes further. To summarize it, don't get lasik! You will regret it
> forever!
Anon E. Muss - 29 May 2006 05:59 GMT
[snip]

>absolutely can't drive

It must be quite frustrating not being able to drive anymore.

How do you go shopping, go to work, etc. now since you no longer are
able to drive?

[snip]

>To summarize it, don't get lasik! You will regret it forever!

The vast majority of people who have LASIK end up with excellent
results.  Our practice has comanaged several hundred patients and we
have never had a patient that we thought would be a good candidate for
LASIK surgery, who then had LASIK regret it.

Statistics show that a very, very few number of people will end up
with severe complications.  But the same goes for any elective,
cosmetic surgery -- like breast augmentation, rhinoplasty, etc. --
which is what LASIK is for the vast majority of people.

Potential candidates for LASIK can increase their chance of success
rate even higher by making sure they choose a quality surgeon.  In
general, those who heavily advertise and have the lowest rates are not
the highest quality surgeons.
Roy Starrin - 29 May 2006 14:35 GMT
>Statistics show that a very, very few number of people will end up
>with severe complications.  But the same goes for any elective,
>cosmetic surgery -- like breast augmentation, rhinoplasty, etc. --
>which is what LASIK is for the vast majority of people.
The reason for this is that statistics are for populations, not for
individuals.  When any given individual has any given procedure it
will either be successful or it won't.  (And let's not get into a
discussion of what is success and what isn't)  OP here has had
surgery.  It does not good to tell her what happens with the ideal
potential candidate or what a given surgeon shudda,wudda,cudda done.
For the OP, I would recommend you get several consults with other
surgeons; see if you can find a corneal specialist.  If you you are
close to a univeristy with a good medical school covering opthmology,
you might try there.  As far as refraction, see if you can find an
independent consulting OD, or at least one who is separate from the
refraction factory which did the initial surgery. (I did and he made
such a difference in my vision that I am considering abandoning
further surgery)   It will cost you some $$$.  
When you are all done with the above, you will still be in  the same
boa you are now.  You will still have to make a decision on what will
be the best course of action for you.  No one can make it for you.
There are no guarantees, and statistics don't apply to you as an
individual.
Lots of luck.  I truly hope it works out for you.
   Roy
Anon E. Muss - 29 May 2006 16:05 GMT
>It does not good to tell her what happens with the ideal potential
>candidate or what a given surgeon shudda,wudda,cudda done.

I was not only speaking to the OP, but to all the other readers of SMV
(which is why I "follow-up"ed here, rather the reply directly via
email) -- IOW, those here who might be comtemplating having refractive
surgery.

IOW, I wasn't intending to criticize the OP or the OP's decisions, but
to alert future refractive surgery candidates who might be lurking
here.

Sorry that wasn't clear to you.
Bassslapper - 29 May 2006 16:31 GMT
I find it disturbing and somewhat odd that the consent form, a major
part of the whole procedure, was handed to you at the last minute while
you were in an altered state mentally. The fact that potential
complications were not addressed as part of the pre-op procedures is
also weird.
Dan Abel - 02 Jun 2006 19:10 GMT
> discussion of what is success and what isn't)  OP here has had
> surgery.

Why do you think that?  This post uses the same bad spelling and
phrasing that Ace uses.

If Ace didn't write this, I'll eat my hat.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Scott Seidman - 29 May 2006 15:39 GMT
>  Five minutes before I was to be led into the operating room, I
> was handed a consent form. When I read about the risks, I got worried
> but was assured the odds were one in a million and theres always
> "enhancements" to fix any complications. Too groggy from the sedation
> and out of time to read the consent form carefully, I just signed.

This does not constitute legal consent.  If this actually happened this
way, you should have quite the lawsuit on your hands.  If you haven't
contacted a good malpractice attorney, you might consider doing so.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Dan Abel - 02 Jun 2006 17:05 GMT
> Hello everyone.

Hello, Ace.  Nice post.  Have you ever considered a career as a fiction
writer?  You are pretty good.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

otisbrown@pa.net - 02 Jun 2006 18:21 GMT
Jeeze Dan -- do you think Ace posted under "Malcontent"?

We know that Brooks posts under "OdisBrown" -- so perhaps ....

Otis

> > Hello everyone.
>
> Hello, Ace.  Nice post.  Have you ever considered a career as a fiction
> writer?  You are pretty good.
The Central Scrutinizer - 02 Jun 2006 18:24 GMT
> We know that Brooks posts under "OdisBrown" -- so perhaps ....

At least 'Odis' is interesting to read.
A Lieberman - 03 Jun 2006 01:40 GMT
> Jeeze Dan -- do you think Ace posted under "Malcontent"?
>
> We know that Brooks posts under "OdisBrown" -- so perhaps ....
>
> Otis

Proof it!  Bet you won't and can't!

Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 03 Jun 2006 05:28 GMT
Dear Sci.med.vision member,

Subject:  Bad out-come from Lasik.

When Lasik is good -- it is very good.  There are
many who swear by it -- no doubt about it.

But is a percentage of cases -- the results are bad -- as
described in this thread.  And it is very difficult to "fix"
them -- if they can be fixed at all.

I think that ANYONE who is contemplating Lasik
should read all these bad outcomes -- and consider
the risks carefully.

That is the real understanding you should develop
from this bad outcome.

BE VERY CAREFUL WITH LASIK -- would
be the correct "message".

Best,

Otis
Neil Brooks - 03 Jun 2006 05:35 GMT
> I think that ANYONE who is contemplating Lasik
> should read all these bad outcomes -- and consider
> the risks carefully.

But, of course, Otis begins with a conclusion, then looks for the data
that supports his conclusion ... at the exclusion of all else.

If you only look for horror stories, you'll find them.  If you only
read about plane CRASHES, you'll never fly.

If you do some independent research and learn a little something about
probability and statistics, then:

a) You'll be WAY ahead of Otis, and

b) You'll make informed decisions with an objective understanding of
risks and probable outcomes in your particular case.
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 03 Jun 2006 06:32 GMT
> Dear Sci.med.vision member,
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Otis

I extend my condolences for Malcontent's negetive lasik experience
which ruined her eyes. Otis is right about the warning and is in
agreement with Malcontent. I also agree with both of your warnings. I
too have seen good and bad results from those I know who got lasik.
otisbrown@pa.net - 04 Jun 2006 04:18 GMT
Dear Ace,

Subject:  "Block on laser eye surgery in Britain"

BRITAIN'S health authorities are blocking laser eye surgery to correct
myopia because of concerns over its long-term safety for patients.

Current evidence on its safety does not justify its widespread use in
the National Health Service (NHS), the National Institute for Clinical
Excellence (Nice) concluded after a year-long review, Britain's Sunday
Times reported.

The decision will add to the controversy over Lasik, which is seen as
quick and simple and has received many celebrity endorsements.

The surgery uses a laser to cut a piece out of the cornea, the
transparent protective covering over the eye's lens. This procedure can
correct a misshapen lens, which would otherwise require glasses or
contact lenses. The operation is irreversible.

At least 100,000 people a year in Britain pay £2,000 (S$6,351) to
£3,000 for 'cosmetic' eye surgery to correct myopia, attracted by the
promise of freedom from wearing glasses and contact lenses.

Many companies carrying out this surgery have said there are 'no known
long-term side effects or complications' while others boast a 98 per
cent success rate.

But a draft of a Nice report due out on Dec 15, says: 'There are
concerns about ... safety in the long term and current evidence does
not appear adequate to support its use without special arrangement for
consent from the NHS.'

While the report concedes that laser surgery can help fix mild or
moderate shortsightedness, it says there is no clear evidence backing
safety claims made by companies.

The Medical Defence Union, Britain's largest insurer for doctors, said
claims against clinics offering laser surgery doubled since 1998.

Last year the American Journal of Ophthalmology said the failure rate
for eye surgery was one in 10, not the one in 1,000 figure widely
advertised, according to the Times.

One complication, corneal ectasia, can lead to patients having to
undergo a corneal transplant.

According to Nice, the Royal College of Ophthalmologists and the US
Food and Drug Administration have identified more than 20 other
possible complications.

The surgery has become popular in Singapore since its introduction in
1996. Its popularity has grown as prices have dropped. In August, it
cost $1,320 an eye, almost $1,000 less than a year earlier.

>From November last year to August, demand for Lasik rose by 25 per
cent, from about 4,000 cases to more than 5,000.

++++++++++++++++

Ace>

> I extend my condolences for Malcontent's negetive lasik experience
> which ruined her eyes. Otis is right about the warning and is in
> agreement with Malcontent. I also agree with both of your warnings. I
> too have seen good and bad results from those I know who got lasik.
otisbrown@pa.net - 04 Jun 2006 04:25 GMT
The publication date was December, 2004.

The suggested failure rate of 1 in 10 is much
higher than is published by people "selling" Lasik.

Otis

> Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> > agreement with Malcontent. I also agree with both of your warnings. I
> > too have seen good and bad results from those I know who got lasik.
Neil Brooks - 05 Jun 2006 05:55 GMT
> The publication date was December, 2004.
>
> The suggested failure rate of 1 in 10 is much
> higher than is published by people "selling" Lasik.

I'm wondering when you'll get around to answering these questions:

1. There seems to be a great deal of evidence that primates have widely
differing visual systems.  How is it that you feel so secure in saying
that "all primate eyes" behave similarly ... in ANY regard?

2. In these monkey studies that you reference, isn't it true that the
SAME STUDIES showed that, with even BRIEF periods away from the minus
lens, the myopia was prevented?

3. If there was no medical indication that these monkeys needed
corrective lenses at all, can you be sure that appropriate CORRECTION
of somebody's REFRACTIVE ERROR will have similar results?  If so, how?

4. You continually claim that a minus lens causes something that you
call "stair-case myopia."  Presuming that you mean that it does
this in humans, can you cite your source for this claim?

5. You have repeatedly claimed that the Oakley-Young study is
"proof" of this "stair-case myopia" phenomenon, but
Oakley-Young only establishes that-in some people-myopia can get
worse over time.  It doesn't even CLAIM that a minus lens CAUSES
this.  Please explain your position.

6. Also-at least in part, based on the Oakley-Young study-you
recommend that people use plus lenses to prevent myopia.  Are you aware
that the only people in the Oakley-Young study for whom plus lenses
made ANY difference were those with diagnosed "near-point
esophoria?"  This is a convergence disorder.  Do you have ANY
EVIDENCE that the same result is likely with people who DO NOT HAVE
this convergence disorder?

7. You claim to have known Donald Rehm, the founder of the
International Myopia Prevention Association, for some decades.  I
presume that you are familiar with his FDA petition.  In it, Mr. Rehm
states:

Quote:"A percentage of children may have difficulty "accepting" a large
add because of the strong linkage in the human visual system between
accommodation and convergence (turning the eyes inward when looking at
something close). As a viewed object approaches the eyes, accommodation
and convergence increase in proportion to each other. Over thousands of
years, the brain has learned that this is the normal situation.
Consequently, accommodation stimulates convergence and vice versa.
Thus, if we converge without accommodating the appropriate amount, or
if we accommodate without converging the appropriate amount, problems
can develop for this small percentage of children such as eye fatigue,
double vision, or other types of fusion problems. That is, the two
images can no longer be fused together without discomfort. Normal
binocular vision is interfered with."

Is there a valid reason why you have not attempted to make people aware
of these SERIOUS risks of unprescribed plus lenses?

8. You continually cite Fred Deakins as a (questionable) success story.
Do you think it is honest NOT to mention that Mr.  Deakins is--in
truth--myopic, that he is trying to sell a $40.00 product, and that his
"testimonial" is used as an inducement to buy this product?

9. Do you have any economic interest in the product sold by Mr.
Deakins?

10. You claimed that you were not selling a book--until, that is, I
provided links to websites where it WAS being sold for $24.95 (with
your home address as the "send check to" address).  You then claimed
that the entire book was available for free on the internet--until,
that its--I pointed out that only approximately four of 14+ chapters
were on the internet. Would you please clarify whether or not you have
ever received money for a copy of your book, "How to avoid
nearsightedness: A scientific study of the normal eye's behavior?"
If so, please state how many copies you have sold, and when the last
copy was sold.  If not, please state how long it has been since you
received any money for this book.

11. Do you believe that it is dishonest NOT to mention that you have a
commercial interest in inducing people to visit your website?

12. Presuming that you understand the difference between accommodative
spasm (pseudomyopia) and axial-length myopia, would you please provide
credible proof that either a) pseudomyopia CAUSES axial-length myopia,
or that b) relieving pseudomyopia REDUCES axial-length myopia

13. You CONSTANTLY make reference to "Second Opinion"
optometrists--presumably meaning those who share your views.  Other
than the now-infamous Steve Leung, are there ANY OTHER such "second
opinion optometrists" in the ENTIRE WORLD?  Does any of these people
have any evidence to support the claims that you make?  Would you
please provide it?

14. Mr. Steve Leung is also trying to sell a book.  Do you have any
economic interest in the book sold by Steve Leung?  Do you think it is
honest NOT to mention that Mr. Leung is--in truth--myopic, that he is
trying to sell a book, and that the "testimonials" on his website,
and your repeated referrals TO his website are used as inducements to
sell both your and his  book?

15. Do you feel that it is HONEST NOT TO admit that--even though your
niece, Joy, NEVER WORE MINUS LENSES, and DID USE PLUS LENSES, she is,
at this time, a myope?
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 05 Jun 2006 06:59 GMT
> Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
> > agreement with Malcontent. I also agree with both of your warnings. I
> > too have seen good and bad results from those I know who got lasik.

Wow I didnt know lasik has been banned in Britain! I did hear Germany
isnt pro-lasik and theres alot of restrictions on lasik there and many
people fail the night driving test. What is meant by a "failed" lasik?
Neil Brooks - 05 Jun 2006 17:00 GMT
> > Dear Ace,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> isnt pro-lasik and theres alot of restrictions on lasik there and many
> people fail the night driving test. What is meant by a "failed" lasik?

ACE!!!

For God's sake, man ... just ONCE in your life ... DO NOT take Otis's
word for things.  Do some independent research, like:

http://www.nice.org.uk/page.aspx?o=IP_233

OR

http://www.nice.org.uk/download.aspx?o=IPG102publicinfo

THEN ... if you HAVE half a brain ... you can decide: Did Otis outright
LIE, or did he present a very distorted and incomplete picture of the
truth.`
otisbrown@pa.net - 06 Jun 2006 02:00 GMT
Dear Ace,

Subject:  Source of article and date was from YaBB.

I think there is a strong warning to be VERY CAREFUL WITH
LASIK.

The "restrictions" could have been removed since the date
of the article -- and "new" techniques.

However, the article still supports the lead-in to this
thread -- that some people have their vision totally
screwed up by "bad outcomes" from Lasik -- and
this should be part of the "document" you sign
when you "release" your surgeon from
the bad effects of Lasik.

Obviously the woman who signed the "release" never
saw the 1 in 10 figure as to "bad outcomes".

Best,

Otis
Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2006 02:09 GMT
>Dear Ace,
>
>Subject:  Source of article and date was from YaBB.

Nothing in this world as compelling as a fifth-hand anecdote provided
by Otis Brown.

Idiot.
LarryDoc - 06 Jun 2006 03:08 GMT
> >Dear Ace,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Idiot.

And what's with all the "   "     ???
Stuck key or stuck brain?
Quick - 06 Jun 2006 03:30 GMT
>>> Dear Ace,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> And what's with all the "   "     ???
> Stuck key or stuck brain?

Only 5 in a quarter page post... He is getting much better.
Notice the dramatic reduction of words in all caps. Only
a few and he managed to group them all together so as
to get it out of the way in one spot. Modern medications
are truly remarkable.

-Quick
The Central Scrutinizer - 06 Jun 2006 05:49 GMT
> And what's with all the "   "     ???
> Stuck key or stuck brain?

"Otis" must have taken "remedial" English in school: he "apparently"
doesn't know what "quotation" marks are really "for".

They're not for "emphasis".

"Sad."
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 06 Jun 2006 03:48 GMT
> Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Otis

Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis stands
correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis credit for never
being rude to me. I also am never rude to anyone and the respect I
show, I recieve respect. Otis and others are right about the 1 in 10
figure, my research shows that theres a 90% satisfaction rate for
lasik. Of course if you are a perfectionist your odds are very poor. If
you dont care what happens and will accept 20/40 vision theres near
100% chance youll be happy.
Quick - 06 Jun 2006 05:17 GMT
> Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis
> stands correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> very poor. If you dont care what happens and will accept
> 20/40 vision theres near 100% chance youll be happy.

Wow, great value add Ace. One question about your
own research that you refer to. Did you use the SCIENTIFIC
method or the MEDICAL method?

-Quick
Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2006 05:52 GMT
> Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis stands
> correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis credit for never
> being rude to me.

So move in with him and become soul-mates, but ... the both of you ...
should really leave this newsgroup alone AND stop talking to people
about eyes and eyesight.  You two deserve each other.  You're both
ill-informed and dangerous.

> I also am never rude to anyone and the respect I
> show, I recieve respect.

I don't know what that means, but I have a nagging hunch that nobody
here respects you, and that this respect-seeking behavior is
epithetical of much of your life.

BTW: I'll take RUDE AND RIGHT over POLITE AND WRONG all day long.
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 06 Jun 2006 06:31 GMT
> > Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis stands
> > correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis credit for never
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> BTW: I'll take RUDE AND RIGHT over POLITE AND WRONG all day long.

Why dont you make me a list of questions you want me to answer? Ill
settle any concerns you have and ill be polite about it :) I noticed
you made like 15 questions that Otis never answered.
Quick - 06 Jun 2006 06:42 GMT
> Why dont you make me a list of questions you want me to
> answer? Ill settle any concerns you have and ill be
> polite about it :) I noticed you made like 15 questions
> that Otis never answered.

DING!!! Why don't you start with those?

-Quick
Neil Brooks - 06 Jun 2006 13:50 GMT
>> > Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis stands
>> > correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis credit for never
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Why dont you make me a list of questions you want me to answer?

I actually don't care to *ever* hear your "answers" [note the
APPROPRIATE use of quotation marks....] again.  

I don't view this as a quiz-show--the prize from participation being a
boost to the fragiile ego of a substance-abusing 27 year old online
porn surfer.

I personally view this as a place where people with concerns get
answers and where people with interest discuss.

You falll handily into neither category.

> Ill
>settle any concerns you have and ill be polite about it :)

Please allow me to offer you a quarter so that you may call somebody
who gives a $hit.

> I noticed
>you made like 15 questions that Otis never answered.

Gee.  Really?

You feel the need to be loved, respected, coddled, and appreciated?
Get Otis to answer the questions himself ... fully, directly, and
completely.

Then ... don't let the door hit ya'.....
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 07 Jun 2006 00:09 GMT
> >> > Some articles are biased or stretching the truth but Otis stands
> >> > correct reguarding the risks of lasik. I give Otis credit for never
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Then ... don't let the door hit ya'.....

Now I can see why Otis is ignoring you. You are rude to everyone so why
should we do what you want? Its not just about you. Otis is here to
help the world prevent and reduce myopia and doesnt care for the drama.
He also doesnt care for your arguements. His plus lens methods work and
he knows it, has seen it work.
Neil Brooks - 07 Jun 2006 00:32 GMT
>Now I can see why Otis is ignoring you.

Ignoring me?  I wish.

What he IS doing is avoiding answering valid and direct questions.

Big difference, Champ.

>You are rude to everyone

I see you've learned your statistics from Otis ... AGAIN.

I'm "rude" to you and to Otis.  I can think of no two more deserving
people.

By the way, what you call "rude," most people here (I would venture to
guess) seem to think is more accurately referred to as "treatment with
appropriate contempt."

>so why
>should we do what you want? Its not just about you.

I think you have the view of who here is selfish and wants the world
to believe him ... backwards.  'Tis Uncle Otis who is Johnny One Note,
Spaceman, not I.

>Otis is here to
>help the world

Hallelujah and praise be Miister Otis, for his is the glory and the
kingdom and the ....

Except that ... he's basically full of sh.t, and ... the LEAST logical
person I have ever encountered.

> prevent and reduce myopia and doesnt care for the drama.

...other than to cause it and then run....

>He also doesnt care for your arguements.

Because to answer them would expose him as a fraud.

> His plus lens methods work and
>he knows it, has seen it work.

Ace, forgive me if this sounds rude--I don't mean it to be--but ...
you're an absolute idiot.  Back to online porn.  Gotta' imagine that's
as close to the opposite sex as you'll ever get.

Kisses, sweetie!
Dan Abel - 06 Jun 2006 23:27 GMT
> > I also am never rude to anyone and the respect I
> > show, I recieve respect.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> BTW: I'll take RUDE AND RIGHT over POLITE AND WRONG all day long.

How about RUDE and WRONG?  Ace may think that he is not rude, but I
don't agree.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Neil Brooks - 07 Jun 2006 00:41 GMT
>> > I also am never rude to anyone and the respect I
>> > show, I recieve respect.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>How about RUDE and WRONG?  Ace may think that he is not rude, but I
>don't agree.

I'm inclined to agree with you, Dan ;-)

There really aren't too many forms of disrespect more egregious than
foisting onesself forcefully on others--who come here regarding their,
or their loved ones' medical problems--with as little knowledge and as
admittedly narcissistic a motive as SpaceCake's.

THAT is why you are treated with contempt, disdain, and loathing ...
pretty much the same reasons as your sugar-daddy, Uncle Otis.
Neil Brooks - 07 Jun 2006 01:04 GMT
> >> > I also am never rude to anyone and the respect I
> >> > show, I recieve respect.
> >>
> >> I don't know what that means, but I have a nagging hunch that nobody
> >> here respects you, and that this respect-seeking behavior is
> >> epithetical of much of your life.

One more little aside for you there, Spaceman:

If you do a little homework, I think you'd find that--for maybe three
years--people (myself included) POLITELY (as--to his credit--Mike Tyner
still does) asked Your Savior, Otis, to explain contradictions, clarify
terminology, cite studies, answer questions, etc., etc., etc.

He didn't ... just as he doesn't now.

You see, Spaceman ... part of positing a hypothesis is defending it.
Part of having assumptions is testing them.  Part of trying to get a
theory accepted is explaining all of its failings.

The old guy from PA seems to ... um ... fall woefully short on these
scores ... yet insinuates that I don't understand science ... or
engineering ... or ... whatever it is he thinks I fail to understand.

So ... now he gets to reap what he sowed ... and ain't it a beautiful
thing?

(Scr)Otis is clearly a man of deep faith ... but ... in his case ... it
clearly works at cross-purposes with the search for truth in medicine
OR science.

Don't let your faith (in this ol' charlatan) derail your quest for
knowledge ... or the love of a Rubenesque woman ... or ... whatever it
is that you seek (no details.  Please!).
 
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