Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Vision / May 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

I'm finally GETTING a "second-opinion"

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
odisbrown@pa.net - 21 May 2006 04:53 GMT
Dear Second-opnion friends,

Subject: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

Clearly, I am having difficulty again.  The
caregivers in my Intensive Case Management
Program--while compassionate people--are making
little to no headway in my conditions.

They are using the word "refractory."  I am
unclear as to its meaning, but it does not
sound good.

Also, the side effects are quite annoying.
They include Delusions of Grandeur, inability
to think rationally, pathological lying, rampant
paranoia, antisocial personality disorder, mild
schizophrenia, and just a bit of Tinea versicolor
on my groin.  

Most disconcerting, especially that last.

They expect that I will be here a while.  It
has been exceptionally lonely.  

Perhaps one of you would be kind enough
to give Dr. Jacob Raphaelson a call and ask
him to drop by.  Strangely, he has not been
returning my calls.

Also, please tell my niece, Joy, that I am
indeed sorry that she became myopic despite
my intervention.  

She should find some solace
in the knowledge that, at least, her double
vision was not permanent.

Best,
Odis
Ingenue

+++++++++++++++++++++++
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 21 May 2006 05:43 GMT
Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and
isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use
NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.
Neil Brooks - 21 May 2006 07:02 GMT
>Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
>double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
>accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and
>isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use
>NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.

I would imagine they're restricting his access to e-mail.  I wouldn't
be surprised if he didn't respond for a day or two... :-(

We all wish you wel in your recoveryl, Otis.  It wouldn't be the same
without you around.

Granted, it would be *better,* but ... still ... that's *not* the
same.

Neil
Simon Dean - 21 May 2006 15:28 GMT
>>Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
>>double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Neil

(keep it quiet, but surely, odis isn't otis. for one thing, odis uses a
max line length in excess of 15 characters... tsk tsk tsk)

Cya
Simon
odisbrown@pa.net - 21 May 2006 22:27 GMT
>Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
>double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
>accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and
>isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use
>NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.

Dear Ace,

Subject: my CURRENT situation

There is some talk of an "involuntary
hold" at this moment--something that I
am adamantly against, for obvious
reasons.  My wife does not seem to wish
to intervene.

Are you in any position to help
me--either with transportation or with
"testimony" on my behalf?

I never heard from Jacob Raphaelson,
unfortunately.  I counted on the words
of either him or Stirling Colgate to
assist me in my defense.

It seems that they find my behavior
somewhat aberrant and akin to that from
the movie, "A Beautiful Mind" which I
never saw.

Please let me know whether or not you
are in a position to help.

Best,
Odis
Ingenue

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 May 2006 03:02 GMT
Dear Ace,

This imposter can't even spell my name correctly.

Otis
Rev Jessie James - 26 May 2006 02:35 GMT
Ace,

If someone wants to wear plus lens for distance to try and prevent myopia, or negative lenses for reading to prevent presbyopia, that is entirely their choice.  If you go by the "majority opinion" wearing either plus or minus lenses should have no effect.  

I'm a strong beleiver that pushing the eye past the normal limits in both directions not only sharpens vison for distance, but tends to slow the onset of presbyopia.  

 I have seen several you your posts that claiming that everyone over 40 needs reading glasses if they have good distance vision.   I'm 48 and have 20/15 distanced and can still read 6pt font at 8 inches.

Slightly off topic:   I was suprised to see you bashing lasik in another group, which goes hand and hand with NVI.  Even if lasik doesn't always get someone to have perfect vision,  it should be close enough that NVI will get them to perfect.  It will also increase their ability to accomadate so they are more likely to remain with perfect vison even with minor regression.  Lasik and NVI seem to work very well together.

 Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
 double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
 accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and
 isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use
 NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.
otisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 02:54 GMT
Dear Jessie James  (Colt .44?)

Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? ]

"Odis" is a fraud -- Brooks or some joker likes to play
"head games" on sci.med.vision.

Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
 double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence
without
 accomodation and this fools the eyes.

Otis>  I strong suggest that before a person chooses to do
ANYHING, NVI, sunning, etc., the check their eye chart -- and
a medical person -- for potential problems like RP, Macular
degeneration, and a host of medical problems that can
produce reduced visual acuity.

Otis> Once those issues have been cleared off the table,
the remaining issue is what the person might
wish to do with a slight negative refractive STATE,
say -1/2 to -3/4 diopters (i.e., 20/40 to 20/60 vision)
Hands down, the EASY thing is that minus lens.  It
is very impressive, creates 20/20, 20/18, and even 20/15
(BVA) is some people.  But can be over-prescribed.

Otis> I suggest that the parents MIGHT be interested
in PREVENTIVE methods after their own review.
If the parents had induced myopia from an
over-prescribed minus -- they MIGHT be interested
in the second opinion as offered by Steve Leung OD:

www.chinamyopia.org

Otis>  It is wort a "look".  The parents and child
have nothing to loose from this type of assistance
from a qualified optometrist -- provided they
understand this as an either-or choice that
is PREVENTIVE in nature.

If someone wants plus lens and
 isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just
use
 NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.

Otis> As you suggested -- that is a choice.

Otis
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 26 May 2006 03:11 GMT
"I have seen several you your posts that claiming that everyone over 40
needs reading glasses if they have good distance vision.   I'm 48 and
have 20/15 distanced and can still read 6pt font at 8 inches."

Thats a major fluke, a freak of nature, 1 in a million. Your
accomodation is better than mine in fact and im half your age! You are
so lucky, I am jealous!
odisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 03:16 GMT
Dear Jessie James,

Subject: amending previous comments

Re: double vision

Double vision, most assuredly, IS a known side effect
associated with my much fabled "plus lens" therapy,
especially if the plus lens WAS NOT PRESCRIBED by
a licensed practitioner in conjunction with a binocular
function evaluation and ongoing monitoring.

I don't speak openly about it because it is a side
effect of almost NO consequence.

Double vision is a SMALL price to pay to avoid
stair-case myopia associated with the use of the
over-prescribed minus lens.  DOUBLE VISION, by the
way, can be EASILY corrected with "patching."

Once stair-case myopia begins, there IS no turning
back.

As always, I advocate FULL information.  Only then
can a parent choose the path of prevention.  It may,
indeed, be hard, but you cannot lick it by being
soft.

I don't believe that the lack of convincing evidence
of the plus lens as a tool for myopia prevention should
even be a "consideration" in this discussion.  That is why
you never see me respond to such "requests."

Best,

Odis
Ingenue
Rev Jessie James - 26 May 2006 04:18 GMT
> Double vision, most assuredly, IS a known side effect
> associated with my much fabled "plus lens" therapy,

I wouldn't even consider just a "plus lens" therapy without also including convergence and divergence exercises.    With some practice,  both focusing of the eyes and converging/diverging of the vision can be completely independant and under conscious control.  If you have this mastered, there should be very little risk of double vision from plus lens therapy
odisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 17:07 GMT
Dear Jessie James,

Subject: vision therapy

Jessie> I wouldn't even consider just a
"plus lens" therapy without also including
convergence and divergence exercises.  

Odis> I am wondering: do you think it would be
more "honest" if I were to warn people about
these "risks" up front--perhaps suggesting that
they work either with a "majority-opinion" or
a behavioral optometrist to PREVENT (that IS my
mantra, after all) double vision?

Odis> Or do you think, as I do, that double
vision is a small price to pay and that it is just as
well that I do not mention it.

Odis> My "rationale" has been simple: I am under
no "obligation" to disclose known risks.  I am not
a licensed optometrist; therefore, I am not liable
for ill effects of my recommendations.

Odis> Do you agree with my position?

Best,

Odis
Ingenue
Quick - 26 May 2006 18:58 GMT
> Odis> Do you agree with my position?

Dear Odis Ingenue,

We would love to hear your response to the
great state of Pennsylvania's inquiry into your
medical business venture. If you haven't tendered
this already, as one of your fans, I would like to
make the following suggestion. I think it would be
good to start with the clear statement:

"I am not a crook!"

Alternatively, although I think it far less effective:

"I am not a kook!"

thanks and good luck,
-Quick
Simon Dean - 31 May 2006 21:33 GMT
> Dear Jessie James  (Colt .44?)
>
> Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? ]
>
> "Odis" is a fraud -- Brooks or some joker likes to play
> "head games" on sci.med.vision.

No he isn't. He really is Odis. Your assertion that it may be Brooks
surely is slander?

Cya
Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2006 22:17 GMT
> Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of
> double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without
> accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and
> isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use
> NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.

Dear Ace,

Subject:  Prevention -- before the minus.

What I do suggest is that the person (or his parents) check
the kids Snellen -- before he goes for a medical
exam (ophthalmologist).

It is very easy to accedentally over-prescribe a kid, by
-1 to -2 diopters.  So if the kids Snellen is  20/40,
and some "accident" occurs, then the parent can
be aware of it -- and ask questions about
this prescription error.

We know from the primate studies, that is you
place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate
eyes, the -3 group will go down by
about -2 diopters in 12 month.  Thus
the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the
use of a minus.

Best,

Otis
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2006 22:23 GMT
Dear Ace,

Subject:  Get HELP from a second-opinion
optometrist.

Give the OD a chance to help you correctly.
Plan to be INFOMED of this PREVENTIVE alternative.

Ask him questions, like, what would be
the effect of placing a -3 diopter lens
on the natural eye.

Would the refractive state of the eye FOLLOW that minus -- or woud it
not.

If the OD can not give you a coherent answer to this scientific
question -- find another OD who can.

Or just read the site:

www.chinamyopia.org

for details.

But, AFTER you develop stair-case myopia from that minus -- do not
complain about it.

Best,

Otis
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2006 23:21 GMT
>Dear Ace,
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
>Otis

Interesting points, as always, Uncle Otie, but they raise some even
MORE interesting questions.  Perhaps you'll (finally) take a moment to
ACTUALLY ANSWER them:

1.    There seems to be a great deal of evidence that primates have
widely differing visual systems.  How is it that you feel so secure in
saying that "all primate eyes" behave similarly … in ANY regard?
2.    In these monkey studies that you reference, isn't it true that
the SAME STUDIES showed that, with even BRIEF periods away from the
minus lens, the myopia was prevented?
3.    If there was no medical indication that these monkeys needed
corrective lenses at all, can you be sure that appropriate CORRECTION
of somebody's REFRACTIVE ERROR will have similar results?  If so, how?
4.    You continually claim that a minus lens causes something that
you call "stair-case myopia."  Presuming that you mean that it does
this in humans, do you have any valid clinical evidence for this
claim?
5.    You have repeatedly claimed that the Oakley-Young study is
"proof" of this "stair-case myopia" phenomenon, but Oakley-Young only
establishes that-in some people-myopia can get worse over time.  It
doesn't even CLAIM that a minus lens CAUSES this.  Please explain your
position.
6.    Also-at least in part, based on the Oakley-Young study-you
recommend that people use plus lenses to prevent myopia.  Are you
aware that the only people in the Oakley-Young study for whom plus
lenses made ANY difference were those with diagnosed "near-point
esophoria?"  This is a convergence disorder.  Do you have ANY EVIDENCE
that the same result is likely with people who DO NOT HAVE this
convergence disorder?
7.    You claim to have known Donald Rehm, the founder of the
International Myopia Prevention Association, for some decades.  I
presume that you are familiar with his FDA petition.  In it, Mr. Rehm
states:

[quote]"A percentage of children may have difficulty "accepting" a
large add because of the strong linkage in the human visual system
between accommodation and convergence (turning the eyes inward when
looking at something close). As a viewed object approaches the eyes,
accommodation and convergence increase in proportion to each other.
Over thousands of years, the brain has learned that this is the normal
situation.  Consequently, accommodation stimulates convergence and
vice versa.   Thus, if we converge without accommodating the
appropriate amount, or if we accommodate without converging the
appropriate amount, problems can develop for this small percentage of
children such as eye fatigue, double vision, or other types of fusion
problems. That is, the two images can no longer be fused together
without discomfort. Normal binocular vision is interfered
with."[/quote]

Is there a valid reason why you have not attempted to make people
aware of these SERIOUS risks of unprescribed plus lenses?

8.    You continually cite Fred Deakins as a (questionable) success
story.  Do you think it is honest NOT to mention that Mr.  Deakins
is--in truth--myopic, that he is trying to sell a $40.00 product, and
that his "testimonial" is used as an inducement to buy this product?
9.    Do you have any economic interest in the product sold by Mr.
Deakins?
10.    You claimed that you were not selling a book--until, that is,
I provided links to websites where it WAS being sold for $24.95 (with
your home address as the "send check to" address).  You then claimed
that the entire book was available for free on the internet--until,
that its--I pointed out that only approximately four of 14+ chapters
were on the internet. Would you please clarify whether or not you have
ever received money for a copy of your book, "How to avoid
nearsightedness: A scientific study of the normal eye's behavior?"  If
so, please state how many copies you have sold, and when the last copy
was sold.  If not, please state how long it has been since you
received any money for this book.
11.    Do you believe that it is dishonest NOT to mention that you
have a commercial interest in inducing people to visit your website?
12.    Presuming that you understand the difference between
accommodative spasm (pseudomyopia) and axial-length myopia, would you
please provide credible proof that either a) pseudomyopia CAUSES
axial-length myopia, or that b) relieving pseudomyopia REDUCES
axial-length myopia
13.    You CONSTANTLY make reference to "Second Opinion"
optometrists--presumably meaning those who share your views.  Other
than the now-infamous Steve Leung, are there ANY OTHER such "second
opinion optometrists" in the ENTIRE WORLD?  Does any of these people
have any evidence to support the claims that you make?  Would you
please provide it?
14.    Mr. Steve Leung is also trying to sell a book.  Do you have
any economic interest in the book sold by Steve Leung?  Do you think
it is honest NOT to mention that Mr. Leung is--in truth--myopic, that
he is trying to sell a book, and that the "testimonials" on his
website, and your repeated referrals TO his website are used as
inducements to sell both your and his  book?
15.    Do you feel that it is HONEST NOT TO admit that--even though
your niece, Joy, NEVER WORE MINUS LENSES, and DID USE PLUS LENSES, she
is, at this time, a myope?
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 00:24 GMT
> If the OD can not give you a coherent answer to this scientific
> question -- find another OD who can.

Or better still find an engineer. THEY have all the facts.

-MT
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 00:23 GMT
> It is very easy to accedentally over-prescribe a kid, by
> -1 to -2 diopters.

How do you know this?

> We know from the primate studies, that is you
> place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate
> eyes, the -3 group will go down by
> about -2 diopters in 12 month.  Thus
> the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the
> use of a minus.

How do you know this happens in humans?

You don't.

You DO know that kids in Singapore get nearsighted whether they wear glasses
or not, right?

No, probably not.

-MT
A Lieberman - 29 May 2006 00:24 GMT
> We know from the primate studies, that is you
> place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate
> eyes, the -3 group will go down by
> about -2 diopters in 12 month.  Thus
> the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the
> use of a minus.

Dear Ace,

Please disregard Otis's postings.  He is not in the medical profession and
not in any position to give medical advice as provided above.

Thank you!

Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 29 May 2006 15:01 GMT
Dear Ace,

Subject:  Fundamental scientific testing.

Do not let Liberman TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK.

Do not let me tell you how to run AND JUDGE
scoentific experiments designed to
establish the fact that the fundamental
eye is a dynamic system, and NOT
a PASSIVE system.

Understand the difference between pure
scientific PROOF, and medical dogma
of the Donderrs-Helmholtz passive
theory of the eye.

Best,

Otis
The Central Scrutinizer - 29 May 2006 17:35 GMT
>Understand the difference between pure scientific PROOF,

Your so-called 'PROOF' is completely void, as long as you continue to
ignore questions such as those Neil asked earlier in this thread. Not
that I'm surprised, as you did the same thing with my questions about
accomodation in primates versus humans.

Ignore, evade, dodge, and soapbox. Anything else you're good at?
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 19:57 GMT
> Understand the difference between pure
> scientific PROOF, and medical dogma
> of the Donderrs-Helmholtz passive
> theory of the eye.

So why are there no studies showing your treatment works?

That's all we want.

The cites, man, the cites.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 29 May 2006 03:51 GMT
Notice how Neil Brooks responds to OtisBrown -- and not "OdisBrown".

Seems I hit a nerve in Brooks.

Otis
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2006 17:29 GMT
> Notice how Neil Brooks responds to OtisBrown -- and not "OdisBrown".
>
> Seems I hit a nerve in Brooks.

Yeah.  My funny bone.

Care to answer my questions now??

Rate this thread:






 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.