Medical Forum / General / Vision / May 2006
I'm finally GETTING a "second-opinion"
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odisbrown@pa.net - 21 May 2006 04:53 GMT Dear Second-opnion friends,
Subject: One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Clearly, I am having difficulty again. The caregivers in my Intensive Case Management Program--while compassionate people--are making little to no headway in my conditions.
They are using the word "refractory." I am unclear as to its meaning, but it does not sound good.
Also, the side effects are quite annoying. They include Delusions of Grandeur, inability to think rationally, pathological lying, rampant paranoia, antisocial personality disorder, mild schizophrenia, and just a bit of Tinea versicolor on my groin.
Most disconcerting, especially that last.
They expect that I will be here a while. It has been exceptionally lonely.
Perhaps one of you would be kind enough to give Dr. Jacob Raphaelson a call and ask him to drop by. Strangely, he has not been returning my calls.
Also, please tell my niece, Joy, that I am indeed sorry that she became myopic despite my intervention.
She should find some solace in the knowledge that, at least, her double vision was not permanent.
Best, Odis Ingenue
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acemanvx@yahoo.com - 21 May 2006 05:43 GMT Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.
Neil Brooks - 21 May 2006 07:02 GMT >Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of >double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without >accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and >isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use >NO glasses at all and do eye exercises. I would imagine they're restricting his access to e-mail. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't respond for a day or two... :-(
We all wish you wel in your recoveryl, Otis. It wouldn't be the same without you around.
Granted, it would be *better,* but ... still ... that's *not* the same.
Neil
Simon Dean - 21 May 2006 15:28 GMT >>Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of >>double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Neil (keep it quiet, but surely, odis isn't otis. for one thing, odis uses a max line length in excess of 15 characters... tsk tsk tsk)
Cya Simon
odisbrown@pa.net - 21 May 2006 22:27 GMT >Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of >double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without >accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and >isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use >NO glasses at all and do eye exercises. Dear Ace,
Subject: my CURRENT situation
There is some talk of an "involuntary hold" at this moment--something that I am adamantly against, for obvious reasons. My wife does not seem to wish to intervene.
Are you in any position to help me--either with transportation or with "testimony" on my behalf?
I never heard from Jacob Raphaelson, unfortunately. I counted on the words of either him or Stirling Colgate to assist me in my defense.
It seems that they find my behavior somewhat aberrant and akin to that from the movie, "A Beautiful Mind" which I never saw.
Please let me know whether or not you are in a position to help.
Best, Odis Ingenue
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otisbrown@pa.net - 22 May 2006 03:02 GMT Dear Ace,
This imposter can't even spell my name correctly.
Otis
Rev Jessie James - 26 May 2006 02:35 GMT Ace,
If someone wants to wear plus lens for distance to try and prevent myopia, or negative lenses for reading to prevent presbyopia, that is entirely their choice. If you go by the "majority opinion" wearing either plus or minus lenses should have no effect.
I'm a strong beleiver that pushing the eye past the normal limits in both directions not only sharpens vison for distance, but tends to slow the onset of presbyopia.
I have seen several you your posts that claiming that everyone over 40 needs reading glasses if they have good distance vision. I'm 48 and have 20/15 distanced and can still read 6pt font at 8 inches.
Slightly off topic: I was suprised to see you bashing lasik in another group, which goes hand and hand with NVI. Even if lasik doesn't always get someone to have perfect vision, it should be close enough that NVI will get them to perfect. It will also increase their ability to accomadate so they are more likely to remain with perfect vison even with minor regression. Lasik and NVI seem to work very well together.
Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.
otisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 02:54 GMT Dear Jessie James (Colt .44?)
Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? ]
"Odis" is a fraud -- Brooks or some joker likes to play "head games" on sci.med.vision.
Neil did warn about a slight possibility of double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without accomodation and this fools the eyes.
Otis> I strong suggest that before a person chooses to do ANYHING, NVI, sunning, etc., the check their eye chart -- and a medical person -- for potential problems like RP, Macular degeneration, and a host of medical problems that can produce reduced visual acuity.
Otis> Once those issues have been cleared off the table, the remaining issue is what the person might wish to do with a slight negative refractive STATE, say -1/2 to -3/4 diopters (i.e., 20/40 to 20/60 vision) Hands down, the EASY thing is that minus lens. It is very impressive, creates 20/20, 20/18, and even 20/15 (BVA) is some people. But can be over-prescribed.
Otis> I suggest that the parents MIGHT be interested in PREVENTIVE methods after their own review. If the parents had induced myopia from an over-prescribed minus -- they MIGHT be interested in the second opinion as offered by Steve Leung OD:
www.chinamyopia.org
Otis> It is wort a "look". The parents and child have nothing to loose from this type of assistance from a qualified optometrist -- provided they understand this as an either-or choice that is PREVENTIVE in nature.
If someone wants plus lens and isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use NO glasses at all and do eye exercises.
Otis> As you suggested -- that is a choice.
Otis
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 26 May 2006 03:11 GMT "I have seen several you your posts that claiming that everyone over 40 needs reading glasses if they have good distance vision. I'm 48 and have 20/15 distanced and can still read 6pt font at 8 inches."
Thats a major fluke, a freak of nature, 1 in a million. Your accomodation is better than mine in fact and im half your age! You are so lucky, I am jealous!
odisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 03:16 GMT Dear Jessie James,
Subject: amending previous comments
Re: double vision
Double vision, most assuredly, IS a known side effect associated with my much fabled "plus lens" therapy, especially if the plus lens WAS NOT PRESCRIBED by a licensed practitioner in conjunction with a binocular function evaluation and ongoing monitoring.
I don't speak openly about it because it is a side effect of almost NO consequence.
Double vision is a SMALL price to pay to avoid stair-case myopia associated with the use of the over-prescribed minus lens. DOUBLE VISION, by the way, can be EASILY corrected with "patching."
Once stair-case myopia begins, there IS no turning back.
As always, I advocate FULL information. Only then can a parent choose the path of prevention. It may, indeed, be hard, but you cannot lick it by being soft.
I don't believe that the lack of convincing evidence of the plus lens as a tool for myopia prevention should even be a "consideration" in this discussion. That is why you never see me respond to such "requests."
Best,
Odis Ingenue
Rev Jessie James - 26 May 2006 04:18 GMT > Double vision, most assuredly, IS a known side effect > associated with my much fabled "plus lens" therapy, I wouldn't even consider just a "plus lens" therapy without also including convergence and divergence exercises. With some practice, both focusing of the eyes and converging/diverging of the vision can be completely independant and under conscious control. If you have this mastered, there should be very little risk of double vision from plus lens therapy
odisbrown@pa.net - 26 May 2006 17:07 GMT Dear Jessie James,
Subject: vision therapy
Jessie> I wouldn't even consider just a "plus lens" therapy without also including convergence and divergence exercises.
Odis> I am wondering: do you think it would be more "honest" if I were to warn people about these "risks" up front--perhaps suggesting that they work either with a "majority-opinion" or a behavioral optometrist to PREVENT (that IS my mantra, after all) double vision?
Odis> Or do you think, as I do, that double vision is a small price to pay and that it is just as well that I do not mention it.
Odis> My "rationale" has been simple: I am under no "obligation" to disclose known risks. I am not a licensed optometrist; therefore, I am not liable for ill effects of my recommendations.
Odis> Do you agree with my position?
Best,
Odis Ingenue
Quick - 26 May 2006 18:58 GMT > Odis> Do you agree with my position? Dear Odis Ingenue,
We would love to hear your response to the great state of Pennsylvania's inquiry into your medical business venture. If you haven't tendered this already, as one of your fans, I would like to make the following suggestion. I think it would be good to start with the clear statement:
"I am not a crook!"
Alternatively, although I think it far less effective:
"I am not a kook!"
thanks and good luck, -Quick
Simon Dean - 31 May 2006 21:33 GMT > Dear Jessie James (Colt .44?) > > Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? ] > > "Odis" is a fraud -- Brooks or some joker likes to play > "head games" on sci.med.vision. No he isn't. He really is Odis. Your assertion that it may be Brooks surely is slander?
Cya Simon
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2006 22:17 GMT > Hello Otis/Odis, whats up? Neil did warn about a slight possibility of > double vision with plus glasses because they allow convergence without > accomodation and this fools the eyes. If someone wants plus lens and > isnt presbyopic, consult your doctor first if its OK. If not, just use > NO glasses at all and do eye exercises. Dear Ace,
Subject: Prevention -- before the minus.
What I do suggest is that the person (or his parents) check the kids Snellen -- before he goes for a medical exam (ophthalmologist).
It is very easy to accedentally over-prescribe a kid, by -1 to -2 diopters. So if the kids Snellen is 20/40, and some "accident" occurs, then the parent can be aware of it -- and ask questions about this prescription error.
We know from the primate studies, that is you place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate eyes, the -3 group will go down by about -2 diopters in 12 month. Thus the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the use of a minus.
Best,
Otis
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 May 2006 22:23 GMT Dear Ace,
Subject: Get HELP from a second-opinion optometrist.
Give the OD a chance to help you correctly. Plan to be INFOMED of this PREVENTIVE alternative.
Ask him questions, like, what would be the effect of placing a -3 diopter lens on the natural eye.
Would the refractive state of the eye FOLLOW that minus -- or woud it not.
If the OD can not give you a coherent answer to this scientific question -- find another OD who can.
Or just read the site:
www.chinamyopia.org
for details.
But, AFTER you develop stair-case myopia from that minus -- do not complain about it.
Best,
Otis
Neil Brooks - 28 May 2006 23:21 GMT >Dear Ace, > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Otis Interesting points, as always, Uncle Otie, but they raise some even MORE interesting questions. Perhaps you'll (finally) take a moment to ACTUALLY ANSWER them:
1. There seems to be a great deal of evidence that primates have widely differing visual systems. How is it that you feel so secure in saying that "all primate eyes" behave similarly
in ANY regard? 2. In these monkey studies that you reference, isn't it true that the SAME STUDIES showed that, with even BRIEF periods away from the minus lens, the myopia was prevented? 3. If there was no medical indication that these monkeys needed corrective lenses at all, can you be sure that appropriate CORRECTION of somebody's REFRACTIVE ERROR will have similar results? If so, how? 4. You continually claim that a minus lens causes something that you call "stair-case myopia." Presuming that you mean that it does this in humans, do you have any valid clinical evidence for this claim? 5. You have repeatedly claimed that the Oakley-Young study is "proof" of this "stair-case myopia" phenomenon, but Oakley-Young only establishes that-in some people-myopia can get worse over time. It doesn't even CLAIM that a minus lens CAUSES this. Please explain your position. 6. Also-at least in part, based on the Oakley-Young study-you recommend that people use plus lenses to prevent myopia. Are you aware that the only people in the Oakley-Young study for whom plus lenses made ANY difference were those with diagnosed "near-point esophoria?" This is a convergence disorder. Do you have ANY EVIDENCE that the same result is likely with people who DO NOT HAVE this convergence disorder? 7. You claim to have known Donald Rehm, the founder of the International Myopia Prevention Association, for some decades. I presume that you are familiar with his FDA petition. In it, Mr. Rehm states:
[quote]"A percentage of children may have difficulty "accepting" a large add because of the strong linkage in the human visual system between accommodation and convergence (turning the eyes inward when looking at something close). As a viewed object approaches the eyes, accommodation and convergence increase in proportion to each other. Over thousands of years, the brain has learned that this is the normal situation. Consequently, accommodation stimulates convergence and vice versa. Thus, if we converge without accommodating the appropriate amount, or if we accommodate without converging the appropriate amount, problems can develop for this small percentage of children such as eye fatigue, double vision, or other types of fusion problems. That is, the two images can no longer be fused together without discomfort. Normal binocular vision is interfered with."[/quote]
Is there a valid reason why you have not attempted to make people aware of these SERIOUS risks of unprescribed plus lenses?
8. You continually cite Fred Deakins as a (questionable) success story. Do you think it is honest NOT to mention that Mr. Deakins is--in truth--myopic, that he is trying to sell a $40.00 product, and that his "testimonial" is used as an inducement to buy this product? 9. Do you have any economic interest in the product sold by Mr. Deakins? 10. You claimed that you were not selling a book--until, that is, I provided links to websites where it WAS being sold for $24.95 (with your home address as the "send check to" address). You then claimed that the entire book was available for free on the internet--until, that its--I pointed out that only approximately four of 14+ chapters were on the internet. Would you please clarify whether or not you have ever received money for a copy of your book, "How to avoid nearsightedness: A scientific study of the normal eye's behavior?" If so, please state how many copies you have sold, and when the last copy was sold. If not, please state how long it has been since you received any money for this book. 11. Do you believe that it is dishonest NOT to mention that you have a commercial interest in inducing people to visit your website? 12. Presuming that you understand the difference between accommodative spasm (pseudomyopia) and axial-length myopia, would you please provide credible proof that either a) pseudomyopia CAUSES axial-length myopia, or that b) relieving pseudomyopia REDUCES axial-length myopia 13. You CONSTANTLY make reference to "Second Opinion" optometrists--presumably meaning those who share your views. Other than the now-infamous Steve Leung, are there ANY OTHER such "second opinion optometrists" in the ENTIRE WORLD? Does any of these people have any evidence to support the claims that you make? Would you please provide it? 14. Mr. Steve Leung is also trying to sell a book. Do you have any economic interest in the book sold by Steve Leung? Do you think it is honest NOT to mention that Mr. Leung is--in truth--myopic, that he is trying to sell a book, and that the "testimonials" on his website, and your repeated referrals TO his website are used as inducements to sell both your and his book? 15. Do you feel that it is HONEST NOT TO admit that--even though your niece, Joy, NEVER WORE MINUS LENSES, and DID USE PLUS LENSES, she is, at this time, a myope?
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 00:24 GMT > If the OD can not give you a coherent answer to this scientific > question -- find another OD who can. Or better still find an engineer. THEY have all the facts.
-MT
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 00:23 GMT > It is very easy to accedentally over-prescribe a kid, by > -1 to -2 diopters. How do you know this?
> We know from the primate studies, that is you > place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate > eyes, the -3 group will go down by > about -2 diopters in 12 month. Thus > the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the > use of a minus. How do you know this happens in humans?
You don't.
You DO know that kids in Singapore get nearsighted whether they wear glasses or not, right?
No, probably not.
-MT
A Lieberman - 29 May 2006 00:24 GMT > We know from the primate studies, that is you > place a -3 diopter lens on a population of primate > eyes, the -3 group will go down by > about -2 diopters in 12 month. Thus > the suggestion to be CAREFUL in the > use of a minus. Dear Ace,
Please disregard Otis's postings. He is not in the medical profession and not in any position to give medical advice as provided above.
Thank you!
Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 29 May 2006 15:01 GMT Dear Ace,
Subject: Fundamental scientific testing.
Do not let Liberman TELL YOU WHAT TO THINK.
Do not let me tell you how to run AND JUDGE scoentific experiments designed to establish the fact that the fundamental eye is a dynamic system, and NOT a PASSIVE system.
Understand the difference between pure scientific PROOF, and medical dogma of the Donderrs-Helmholtz passive theory of the eye.
Best,
Otis
The Central Scrutinizer - 29 May 2006 17:35 GMT >Understand the difference between pure scientific PROOF, Your so-called 'PROOF' is completely void, as long as you continue to ignore questions such as those Neil asked earlier in this thread. Not that I'm surprised, as you did the same thing with my questions about accomodation in primates versus humans.
Ignore, evade, dodge, and soapbox. Anything else you're good at?
Mike Tyner - 29 May 2006 19:57 GMT > Understand the difference between pure > scientific PROOF, and medical dogma > of the Donderrs-Helmholtz passive > theory of the eye. So why are there no studies showing your treatment works?
That's all we want.
The cites, man, the cites.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 29 May 2006 03:51 GMT Notice how Neil Brooks responds to OtisBrown -- and not "OdisBrown".
Seems I hit a nerve in Brooks.
Otis
Neil Brooks - 29 May 2006 17:29 GMT > Notice how Neil Brooks responds to OtisBrown -- and not "OdisBrown". > > Seems I hit a nerve in Brooks. Yeah. My funny bone.
Care to answer my questions now??
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