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Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2006

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Otis?  Is this better?

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Neil Brooks - 17 Apr 2006 20:55 GMT
Maybe it was the phrasing.  Let me post the questions in this format.
Please feel free to answer asap.

1)      There seems to be a great deal of evidence that primates have widely
differing visual systems.  How is it that you feel so secure in saying that
"all primate eyes" behave similarly . in ANY regard?

2)      In these monkey studies that you reference, isn't it true that the
SAME STUDIES showed that, with even BRIEF periods away from the minus lens,
the myopia was prevented?

3)     If there was no medical indication that these monkeys needed
corrective lenses at all, can you be sure that appropriate CORRECTION of
somebody's REFRACTIVE ERROR will have similar results?  If so, how?

4)      You continually claim that a minus lens causes something that you
call "stair-case myopia."  Presuming that you mean that it does this in
humans, can you cite your source for this claim?

5)      You have repeatedly claimed that the Oakley-Young study is "proof"
of this "stair-case myopia" phenomenon, but Oakley-Young only establishes
that-in some people-myopia can get worse over time.  It doesn't even CLAIM
that a minus lens CAUSES this.  Please explain your position.

6)      Also-at least in part, based on the Oakley-Young study-you recommend
that people use plus lenses to prevent myopia.  Are you aware that the only
people in the Oakley-Young study for whom plus lenses made ANY difference
were those with diagnosed "near-point esophoria?"  This is a convergence
disorder.  Do you have ANY EVIDENCE that the same result is likely with
people who DO NOT HAVE this convergence disorder?

7)      You claim to have known Donald Rehm, the founder of the
International Myopia Prevention Association, for some decades.  I presume
that you are familiar with his FDA petition.  In it, Mr. Rehm states:

"A percentage of children may have difficulty "accepting" a large add
because of the strong linkage in the human visual system between
accommodation and convergence (turning the eyes inward when looking at
something close). As a viewed object approaches the eyes, accommodation and
convergence increase in proportion to each other. Over thousands of years,
the brain has learned that this is the normal situation.  Consequently,
accommodation stimulates convergence and vice versa.  Thus, if we converge
without accommodating the appropriate amount, or if we accommodate without
converging the appropriate amount, problems can develop for this small
percentage of children such as eye fatigue, double vision, or other types of
fusion problems. That is, the two images can no longer be fused together
without discomfort. Normal binocular vision is interfered with."

Is there a valid reason why you have not attempted to make people aware of
these SERIOUS risks?

8)      You continually cite Fred Deakins as a (questionable) success story.
Do you think it is honest NOT to mention that Mr. Deakins is trying to sell
a $40.00 product, and that his "testimonial" is used as an inducement to buy
this product?

9)      Do you have any economic interest in the product sold by Mr.
Deakins?

10)      Would you please clarify whether or not you have ever received
money for a copy of your book, "How to avoid nearsightedness: A scientific
study of the normal eye's behavior?"  If so, please state how many copies
you have sold, and when the last copy was sold.  If not, please state how
long it has been since you received any money for this book.

11)      Do you believe that it is dishonest NOT to mention that you have a
commercial interest in inducing people to visit your website?

Please answer these for now.  I'm sure there will be others.

Thank you.
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 17 Apr 2006 22:14 GMT
Ill answer one for Otis.

The excessive amount of reading and other close work that we do in our
modern society is the REAL cause of acquired myopia. And the glasses
that are normally prescribed by uncaring doctors make the vision get
worse FAST!

Reading Glasses. Reading glasses are not as effective as the Myopter
but they are still a powerful tool in controlling myopia. They can be
purchased off-the-rack in stores for a low price. You should select
lenses that are strong enough to eliminate accommodation at normal
reading distance. For a child just moving into myopia, this means +3
lenses. They should be used for all close work. Ideally, the book
should be held far enough away so that the print is slightly blurred.

The well-intended advice is occasionally given that more headway could
be made in convincing doctors to change their ways by toning down the
criticism and using reason instead. Sadly, their greed and self-imposed
ignorance are stronger than any reasoning. Change will not come through
reasoning with doctors. It will come when people learn how they are
being manipulated and demand an end to it. When tobacco companies use
every trick they can to get people to smoke, in spite of the untold
misery that smoking has caused, a person still has a choice of smoking
or not smoking. But what choice does a child have when the eye doctor
prescribes minus lenses and nothing is said about choices? There is no
warning on the glasses stating, "This product may destroy your vision."

http://www.myopia.org/bifocals.htm

Bifocals greatly reduces myopia progression
CatmanX - 17 Apr 2006 23:22 GMT
> Ill answer one for Otis.
>
> The excessive amount of reading and other close work that we do in our
> modern society is the REAL cause of acquired myopia. And the glasses
> that are normally prescribed by uncaring doctors make the vision get
> worse FAST!

The term you are looking for here is slander. Please name me one doctor
or optometrist who prescribes glasses to make vision worse. If you
can't, you may be staring a lawsuit in the face.

> The well-intended advice is occasionally given that more headway could
> be made in convincing doctors to change their ways by toning down the
> criticism and using reason instead. Sadly, their greed and self-imposed
> ignorance are stronger than any reasoning.

Are you claiming we put dollars in front of patient's well-being?

> Change will not come through
> reasoning with doctors. It will come when people learn how they are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> prescribes minus lenses and nothing is said about choices? There is no
> warning on the glasses stating, "This product may destroy your vision."

Glasses are detrimental to your health like cigarettes? You really have
lost the plot Nancy.

dr grant
p.clarkii@gmail.com - 18 Apr 2006 00:01 GMT
between tokes on his bong, aceman farted out the following remark:
"Bifocals greatly reduces myopia progression"

really?  prove it.
you must not be reading the same scientific journals that the rest of
are.
Odis Brown - 18 Apr 2006 00:21 GMT
>between tokes on his bong, aceman farted out the following remark:
>"Bifocals greatly reduces myopia progression"
>
>really?  prove it.
>you must not be reading the same scientific journals that the rest of
>are.

Dear Ace,

  Subject: your response to the majority-opinion

You have learned well.  I am heartened to see that
our little "sessions" together have resulted in
the creation of such a powerful thinker as
yourself.

Remember:

 - Never answer the question that was asked.
Answer the question that you wish had been asked;

 - Try to obfuscate by using meaningless jargon.
It is impossible for anybody to contradict you if
your actual premise is unintelligible;

 - Resolve in your conviction, and faith in your
master, are worth a whole lot more than any
"facts."

 - Never cite an actual source.  Sources can be
impeached.  Instead, vocalize your OPINION with as
much confidence as you can muster;

 - If pressed, provide nothing more than
ANECDOTAL evidence -- a story about your nephew,
for example.  These, too, cannot be impeached;

 - Cite only DECEASED eye doctors, or living
people whose academic credentials have NOTHING to
do with vision or eyesight.  Again, they cannot be
impeached;

 - Stand resolved in the face of their chiding.
You penchant for heavy women who exist only on the
Internet and your past experience with
recreational drugs really shouldn't have MUCH
bearing on your credibility.

 - Lastly, I apologize again for the accidental
physical contact.  I do not have the coordination
that I once had.  Please don't read anything into
it.

Best,

Odis

ps: I meant to e-mail this to you personally.  I
certainly hope it doesn't find its way to the
larger newsgroup....
Rev Jessie James - 18 Apr 2006 02:51 GMT
This is pitiful...

Otis has practically given up on the majority opinion zealots in this group, yet the war is carried on by his imitators.

 On 17 Apr 2006 16:01:51 -0700, p.clarkii@gmail.com
 wrote:

 >between tokes on his bong, aceman farted out the following remark:
 >"Bifocals greatly reduces myopia progression"
 >
 >really?  prove it.
 >you must not be reading the same scientific journals that the rest of
 >are.

 Dear Ace,

    Subject: your response to the majority-opinion

 You have learned well.  I am heartened to see that
 our little "sessions" together have resulted in
 the creation of such a powerful thinker as
 yourself.

 Remember:

   - Never answer the question that was asked.
 Answer the question that you wish had been asked;

   - Try to obfuscate by using meaningless jargon.
 It is impossible for anybody to contradict you if
 your actual premise is unintelligible;

   - Resolve in your conviction, and faith in your
 master, are worth a whole lot more than any
 "facts."

   - Never cite an actual source.  Sources can be
 impeached.  Instead, vocalize your OPINION with as
 much confidence as you can muster;

   - If pressed, provide nothing more than
 ANECDOTAL evidence -- a story about your nephew,
 for example.  These, too, cannot be impeached;

   - Cite only DECEASED eye doctors, or living
 people whose academic credentials have NOTHING to
 do with vision or eyesight.  Again, they cannot be
 impeached;

   - Stand resolved in the face of their chiding.
 You penchant for heavy women who exist only on the
 Internet and your past experience with
 recreational drugs really shouldn't have MUCH
 bearing on your credibility.

   - Lastly, I apologize again for the accidental
 physical contact.  I do not have the coordination
 that I once had.  Please don't read anything into
 it.

 Best,

 Odis

 ps: I meant to e-mail this to you personally.  I
 certainly hope it doesn't find its way to the
 larger newsgroup
Neil Brooks - 18 Apr 2006 02:56 GMT
> This is pitiful...

> Otis has practically given up on the majority opinion zealots in this group, yet the war is carried on by his imitators.

After four years of HIS crap -- and now his having introduced his minions to
sci.med.vision to carry on the charge -- I only hope you'll find it in your
heart to get over it.

If not, well ... that's okay, too.
Quick - 18 Apr 2006 03:08 GMT
>> This is pitiful...
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> If not, well ... that's okay, too.

Neil, you have overlooked the amazing possibility that
the good Reverend didn't recognize it as humor/parody.

It's posts like that one that make it all worth while.
I am totally impressed at how well those are crafted.

-Quick
Neil Brooks - 18 Apr 2006 03:12 GMT
> >> This is pitiful...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> -Quick

Point taken.

Could be that the Right Reverend baited the trap himself....
The Central Scrutinizer - 18 Apr 2006 03:24 GMT
>I am totally impressed at how well those are crafted.

I'd have been more impressed if he hadn't misspelled the name - but
otherwise, not too bad.

The first imitator was far more convincing, though.

BD
acemanvx@yahoo.com - 18 Apr 2006 04:47 GMT
CatmanX and p.clar, what was said was a copy and paste I got off a
website. If any, they are responsable for the content. I am just a
parrot repeating the wisdom they put forth! I generally dont diss
optometrists, they are just doing their job. I have to give them credit
for exaiming your eyes for signs of diseases and throwing glasses to
fix refractive errors. If they believed in vision improvement, they
would be telling people that. Its not that they dont care, they do,
they just dont believe in myopia prevention and reduction. I know, I
talked to a few and they said your eyes only gets worse, not
better(except when you get old, they might get a bit more hyperopic or
less myopic) and they told me glasses, contacts, orthoK or lasik is all
they believe in. They said if I want to try natural vision improvement,
go ahead but they dont believe in it and said even if it somehow
worked, it wont matter if you get from -5 down to -4. Well I did it and
it may not matter much yet but I plan to now get from -4 down to -3.
This will start mattering as -3 is a big difference from -5 or at least
a noticable one. Were talking about 3 fold improvement in UCVA.
Quick - 18 Apr 2006 08:47 GMT
> CatmanX and p.clar, what was said was a copy and paste I
> got off a website. If any, they are responsable for the
> content.

Nice try Ace.  I must have missed the attribution in your
post.  You know something like "here is something I've
cut-n-pasted from website xxx".  Then you might have
only had exposure for copyright infringement. Talk to
Otis, maybe you two could timeshare a lawyer.

-Quick
CatmanX - 18 Apr 2006 13:28 GMT
Oh crap, I thought you had an original thought Nancy.

Your attempt to slander optometrists is still slander. I got a legal
opinion on this today and you can go to jail. I hope Jethro will be
nice to you.

dr grant
Rev Jessie James - 19 Apr 2006 02:55 GMT
Jail time for slander?  That's a new one ( here in the USA ).   An intercontinental civil suit about expressing and opinion in a newsgroup... Quite an amusing thought!

Few lawyers that would take slander case like yours on a percentage basis. Take it to court, you would probably end up paying his legal fees in a countersuit, so be prepared to pay for 2 lawyers.

The "clean hands" rule also comes into play.    With the crap I have seen you post about Ace, there is absolutely no a chance of a case.  

It's the same with both lawyers and doctors.  A second opinion is often needed, as the best in the business often go against the majority opinion.

 Oh crap, I thought you had an original thought Nancy.

 Your attempt to slander optometrists is still slander. I got a legal
 opinion on this today and you can go to jail. I hope Jethro will be
 nice to you.

 dr grant
CatmanX - 19 Apr 2006 04:58 GMT
 "An intercontinental civil suit about expressing and opinion in a
newsgroup... Quite an amusing thought! "

Has happened, will happen again. Personally, I don't give a toss about
anything Nancy says, but he is attempting to tar several professions
with the accusation they are all deliberately wrecking people's eyes.

One thing I do know, is that groups of professionals act differently
than as individuals, such as taking legal action for little reason or
withholding public services to stop bills of parliament.

My point here is that Nancy should really be careful about what he/she
says. Given Nancy has no real knowledge about optometry or
ophthalmology, she should not be making such sweeping statements.

dr grant
Chimerical Vision Improvement Forum - 18 Apr 2006 19:39 GMT
>CatmanX and p.clar, what was said was a copy and paste I got off a
>website. If any, they are responsable for the content. I am just a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>This will start mattering as -3 is a big difference from -5 or at least
>a noticable one. Were talking about 3 fold improvement in UCVA.

Ace,

We need you back.  You're out-gunned by people who both KNOW what
they're talking about AND don't take kindly to libelous, pimply-faced,
numismatic adolescents.

Come back over to the Vision Improvement website.  We miss you there.
Nobody cares if you're right, if you're wrong, if you come off like an
idiot, or even if you hurt other people.  

We're far more egalitarian than this bunch.

Leave these people alone, Ace.  You don't need them and they certainly
don't need you.

Bobby Chimera
Chimerical Vision Improvement Forum
CatmanX - 18 Apr 2006 22:19 GMT
Hey bobby, if you think egalitarian means listening to unsubstantiated
crap, then you can have Nancy for good. No-one wants his/her drivel
here.

By the way, you can have Rich as well, he cries when we say nasty
things like his theory has no support in the literature.

dr grant
 
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