Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2006
Real vs.non-productive discussion and ridicule
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Rich - 13 Apr 2006 03:13 GMT In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise engage in non-productive discussion".
A nice sentiment, but it's frequently violated. I recently submitted a post on the etiology of myopia, thinking that it might get an intelligent discussion going.
I was wrong. Dr. Leukoma's response was "Perhaps we should bequeath this NG to the quacks, once and for all".
I guess that according to him, anybody whose ideas don't agree with his is a quack.
When I then challenged him to refute my claim about the persistence of accommodation, I expected an answer along the lines of "Dummy! Don't you know that it takes about one second for the lens to change its focus from near to far?". That's true, as any ophthalmology textbook will tell you, but that's misleading because it refers only to a focus change after momentary accommodation.
Instead, I got this:
"I give most readers here credit for high intelligence, Rich. They don't need my help to see through you".
How very clever, I thought. He can't refute the claim, so he changes the subject--to the *ludicrous* charge that I am hiding something!
Then we had Mike Tyner, who appears to have understood only a small part of my post.
When I pointed out that much of his response was incoherent or had little or nothing to do with my post, his defense was that "Your original post wandered from accommodation to myopia, back and forth again". I guess he has some difficulty comprehending two (TWO!) ideas at the same time :-)
Getting back to what this forum *should* be about, how the eye works, their posts lead me to believe that the optometrists and ophthalmologists here don't keep up with current research.
For example, they "know" that it is nonsense to claim, as I do, that accommodation persists long after a nearwork task is completed. They are completely wrong.
Apparently they are ignorant of the phenomenon of Nearwork-Induced Transient Myopia (NITM), also known as accomodative hysteresis. The evidence from dozens of studies is conclusive, beyond dispute.
When I claim that a significant part of myopia is permanent accommodation of the lens, it is supported, although indirectly, by these studies.
One researcher in this field, in a personal communication, assured me that in some of his studies, what he calls the "decay period" after a nearwork task is ended can last as long as SIX HOURS.
Consider a person who is an avid reader. He reads for, say, two hours, probably at a very close distance, as many avid readers do. By this time his accommodation is at a point that it will take, say, 4 hours to decay completely.
However, after an hour's rest, he goes back to reading, so that the lens doesn't have enough time to de-accommodate, thereby causing another boost to his existing accommodation. After weeks or months of this nearwork pattern the lens gets to the point that it never de-accomodates completely.
I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia.
Unfortunately, he, and as far as I know all the others in this field, explain this by resorting to the retinal defocus theory, which proposes that accommodation "lags" behind the amount needed for a given distance; with the focal point situated behind the retina, there is a mechanism (they are vague about this) that makes the eye increase its length so that the retina matches the focal point. Could another explanation be that the lens fails to fully de-accommodate? They don't even consider this.
I'll say it again, in the crudest way possible: Myopes are myopic because they have accommodated so much and for so long that their lenses have become permanently accommodated for near vision.
Please don't remind me about axial elongation and heredity. I know all about it.
The NITM phenomenon is relevant to attempts to slow or stop the progression of myopia. The first rule should be: do all you can to minimize accommodation. When somebody (was it Ace?) advised people to have frequent rest periods during nearwork and to look in the distance, he was slammed by some of the professionals, but supported, I believe, by at least one.
Of course it's important to have gatekeepers to safeguard the scientific process, but there's such a thing as going too far, into "pathological skepticism", as described at
<http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/wbelief1.html>
I was a bit surprised to see the announcement for the 3rd European Meeting on Physiological Optics, the first time I have seen such a notice on s.m.v. I learned of it a couple of months ago and was thinking of participating, but now I see that DrG and Scott Seidmann might be there, so I'd better stay away :-)
--Rich
RM - 13 Apr 2006 03:25 GMT Do you feel better Rich?
=============
> In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to > posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > > --Rich Dr. Leukoma - 13 Apr 2006 03:30 GMT We understand what Bev means, and we accept it. What's your problem?
And yes, if you did show up at the conference, someone might come up behind you and say: BOO!
DrG
Rich - 13 Apr 2006 18:47 GMT > We understand what Bev means, and we accept it. What's your problem? > > And yes, if you did show up at the conference, someone might come up > behind you and say: BOO! > > DrG What's the problem?
I don't have one. YOU are the one with a problem.
You say you understand what Bev means and you accept it. No you don't. You just violated it with your post!
Just to remind you, she says, among other things:
1. The purpose of this forum is to discuss issues related to eye health and vision care.
2. It is not to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise engage in non-productive discussion.
You've just violated two in one short post.
You're unbelievable!
Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2006 05:24 GMT > Apparently they are ignorant of the phenomenon of Nearwork-Induced > Transient Myopia (NITM), also known as accomodative hysteresis. Also known as accommodative spasm and pseudomyopia. Google those terms in s.m.v. and tell us how ignorant we are.
> When I claim that a significant part of myopia is permanent > accommodation of the lens, it is supported, although indirectly, by > these studies. It would make more sense if you separated myopia into anatomical and functional. They usually coexist in young myopes, but the functional component disappears by 55 or so. Do you think maybe that's why myopes get better and hyperopes get worse between 30 and 50? A-ha!
> another boost to his existing accommodation. After weeks or > months of > this nearwork pattern the lens gets to the point that it never > de-accomodates completely. Well, until he goes to sleep, or gets cycloplegic drops, or reaches 50. Oops... the first two don't completely relax accommodation.
> I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which > one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same > thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes > that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually > coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia. Then the ultrasound studies would have found myopia to be caused by steeper-than-normal lenses. Didn't happen.
But most myopia studies are only concerned with anatomical myopia, so they use cycloplegic drops to suppress accommodation before taking measurements.
> Unfortunately, he, and as far as I know all the others in this field, > explain this by resorting to the retinal defocus theory, which proposes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > explanation be that the lens fails to fully de-accommodate? They > don't even consider this. No, they "fully de-accommodate" the lens with cycloplegic drops. Well, not "fully" but "damn blurry up close."
> I'll say it again, in the crudest way possible: Myopes are myopic > because they have > accommodated so much and for so long that their lenses have become > permanently accommodated for near vision. So uncorrected hyperopes oughta get better all on their own. Every hyperope should cure himself.
It doesn't happen, except perhaps in the same proportion that ethnically similar emmetropes get nearsighted.
> Please don't remind me about axial elongation and heredity. I know > all about it. Of course you do.
> The NITM phenomenon is relevant to attempts to slow or stop the > progression of myopia. The first rule should be: do all you can to > minimize accommodation. When somebody (was it Ace?) advised people to > have frequent rest periods during nearwork and to look in the distance, > he was slammed by some of the professionals, but supported, I believe, > by at least one. Ace gets slammed often, but a broken clock is right twice a day. Most professionals recommend accommodative breaks. I don't know where you heard otherwise. But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what the medical establishment tells us. Argue with them.
But bookkeepers and uncorrected hyperopes don't all get nearsighted. Why not?
> Of course it's important to have gatekeepers to safeguard the > scientific process Just like it's important to have armchair scientists rehashing old, discredited theories.
-MT
CatmanX - 13 Apr 2006 14:39 GMT F*ck, here we go again. Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed for some stupid theory with no validation. Of course we ridicule you rich, because you have a stupid theory and no support.
By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to be making rules for a public forum.
dr grant
Dick Adams - 13 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT > ... By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She > buys secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity > to be making rules for a public forum. Well, her posts are neat and properly attributed (you can tell which post her response is intended for). Her language tends towards gentile and she knows when to use capital letters. She does not spend a lot of bandwidth arguing with Otis and Ace. Rulewise, she seems permissive. One gets the idea she originated this newsgroup. Maybe she gets a bit disgusted with it at times.
-- Dicky (rebuilder of cheap bicycles, and collector of bargain-counter sunglasses)
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 21:52 GMT >> ... By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She >> buys secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bandwidth arguing with Otis and Ace. Rulewise, she seems permissive. > One gets the idea she originated this newsgroup. AAARRRGGGHHH! See my first post in this thread.
> Maybe she gets a bit disgusted with it at times. Compared to other newsgroups, this one is a spring day in the park. Walk the paths. Feed the ducks. Smell the flowers. Enjoy.
> Dicky > (rebuilder of cheap bicycles, and collector of bargain-counter sunglasses) A kindred soul! Right now I'm thinking of putting my 1980 Suzuki GS550 back in running order. I collect inexpensive motorcycles, too. Or at least I used to.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ******************************************* My computer doesn't have to be friendly; civil is entirely sufficient.
otisbrown@pa.net - 13 Apr 2006 16:25 GMT Subject: Profanity -- that John Yassar complained about when Doogle used it.
_____________________________
The professional Dr. Grant:
Also, I think Bev is nice -- and does not deserve this. Why bring her into the discussion about the preventive second-opinion?
> F*ck, here we go again. Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed
> for some stupid theory with no validation. Of course we ridicule you
> rich, because you have a stupid theory and no support. > > By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys
> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to
> be making rules for a public forum. > > dr grant The Central Scrutinizer - 13 Apr 2006 16:56 GMT >By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. Nice language! Spouting off venom like that behind the protection of your keyboard... If you were to talk like that to her face, you'd be in a world of hurt by now. Have some balls and be polite, why don't you?
otisbrown@pa.net - 13 Apr 2006 18:55 GMT Yes, Central,
Dr. Grant should appologize to Bev.
Otis
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 20:33 GMT > Dr. Grant should appologize to > Bev. Quick wrote:
> I'm on the downhill side of old. When it comes to > medical matters I'm of the opinion that bedside > manners are highly overated. And Bev replied:
> I'm not sure which side of the hill I'm on, but I'd be much happier to > find snarling competent docs who could actually fix me. I have family > and friends to hold my hand. I feel comfortable that she can speak for herself.
To chime in: I quite agree: I'd rather deal with a churlish Dr. Grant than an affable but insane Otis Brown any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 23:04 GMT > Quick wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > than an affable but insane Otis Brown any day of the week and twice on > Sunday. I'm going to throw in my disagreement here. Certainly competence is important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to follow their advice.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 23:09 GMT > > Quick wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to > follow their advice. It's still a matter of values. For many people, distrust doesn't automatically result from being put off by issues of bedside manner.
I might trust a surgeon to cut me, but still have no interest in having a social beer with him or her.
Quick - 14 Apr 2006 01:24 GMT > In article > <1144956798.205376.75860@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > competence is important, but if you don't trust your > doctor, you aren't as likely to follow their advice. I would have to say that trust is something little effected by manners. I trust a number of boors and distrust a number of extremely pleasant people.
-Quick
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:11 GMT >> Quick wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to > follow their advice. Absolutely, but "nice" doesn't necessarily equal "competent". The jerk I blame for not catching my mom's retinal problems in time to repair them in spite of quarterly visits was a really nice little old man, but he should rot in hell.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 20:34 GMT > By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys > secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to > be making rules for a public forum. Sorry, Bev, your credibility is completely blown. Until you buy a fleet of top of the line Mercedes, nobody will pay any attention to what you post.
And by the way drgrant, do I need to remind you that in Germany, they use MBs as taxis? They are cheap there. Here in the US, they are very expensive. It's all marketing. I assume that it is the same in au, since you appear to have been snookered into their game.
Bev and I don't agree about money. She thinks that you don't get what you pay for. I think that you sometimes do. She thinks that you get what you pay for in medicine. I disagree (I pay US$15.00 a month for medical care). I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to $30,000 for the very same truck) or bicycles (the difference between a US$300 bicycle and one for $30,000 is negligible for the average rider).
And of course, Bev doesn't make any rules here or try to. She is merely giving a warning to people that they should read carefully and be aware that there is some bad advice here.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 22:04 GMT I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts. That explains a lot.
>> By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys >> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of top of the line Mercedes, nobody will pay any attention to what you > post. What, buy Kraut Kars? No way! My great-grandfather brought his family to the US so that his sons couldn't be inducted into the Prussian army.
> And by the way drgrant, do I need to remind you that in Germany, they > use MBs as taxis? They are cheap there. Here in the US, they are very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you pay for. I think that you sometimes do. She thinks that you get > what you pay for in medicine. No, I don't. Just because you pay top dollar to a Noted Name, it doesn't mean that some cheesy carelessness isn't going to kill you. I think my MIL died because nobody checked up on her Coumadin dosage, but I can't prove it.
> I disagree (I pay US$15.00 a month for medical care). Nifty. Right now I'm a cash customer, but I'll hit Medicare around the end of the year. That will cost me roughly $480/quarter+Medicare Part B with everying covered except refraction and whatever and however the drug deductible on Part D/Blue Cross drugs is/are. I don't think I've needed more than a couple of $hundred in medstuff over the last 10 years, including stuff like mammograms and blood tests which you just get on spec. Health Fairs (coming soon) are an amazingly good deal!
> I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy > mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to > $30,000 for the very same truck) or bicycles (the difference between a > US$300 bicycle and one for $30,000 is negligible for the average rider). Wow. Is it possible to buy a $30K bike? I would have guessed $10K to be absolute tops unless you want crap like solid gold brake levers etc.
> And of course, Bev doesn't make any rules here or try to. She is merely > giving a warning to people that they should read carefully and be aware > that there is some bad advice here. If people insist on giving advice, they have to be willing to have other people insist on ignoring it :-)
 Signature Cheers, Bev ******************************************* My computer doesn't have to be friendly; civil is entirely sufficient.
Dan Abel - 14 Apr 2006 00:39 GMT > I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts. That > explains a lot. Doesn't explain a thing to me. Aussies are just people. drgrant is an ***, but most aren't.
> > Bev and I don't agree about money. She thinks that you don't get what > > you pay for. I think that you sometimes do. She thinks that you get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Nifty. Right now I'm a cash customer, but I'll hit Medicare around the > end of the year. I hit Medicare in several years. I understand that it will be totally transparent. I'll need to sign up, but my HMO will give me services just like they do now, and bill Medicare for whatever they can get away with.
I have lifetime health and dental benefits. My health benefits include refraction and such.
> > I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy > > mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Wow. Is it possible to buy a $30K bike? I would have guessed $10K to > be absolute tops unless you want crap like solid gold brake levers etc. I would never ride a bike without gold brake levers. Actually, I haven't ridden a bike in years and don't plan to. I just made up that US$30,000.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:02 GMT You sort of missing the point here.
My point was that Rich is complaining that everyone is not standing up and applauding him. He quotes a post by Bev.
Who is Bev? What credibility does she have and who gave her the right to make rules in a public NG?
So far, I have garnered that Bev doesn't know much about eyecare, is not qualified to give advice on optical matters and believes buying cheap glasses from cheap optical stores is good advice. Yet she continues to post weekly rules for this forum that do not exist.
Rich thinks he has revolutionised the optical industry by rehashing a tired old theorem that has been long put to bed due to lack of any credibility. If Rich can come up with some evidence, them we will read it and critique it, however, he has not provided this in any way shape or form. Rich does think he has the right to complain because he is deficient in any thinking skills. He then determines to quote rules that don't exist in any real sense, by an author who is neither knowledgable or qualified in the area.
dr grant
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:07 GMT > You sort of missing the point here. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Who is Bev? What credibility does she have and who gave her the right > to make rules in a public NG? What rules? Can't you read? I know that OzEnglish is a bit different from YankEnglish, but there's enough commonality that we can actually carry on a conversation...if desired.
> So far, I have garnered that Bev doesn't know much about eyecare, is > not qualified to give advice on optical matters and believes buying > cheap glasses from cheap optical stores is good advice. Yet she > continues to post weekly rules for this forum that do not exist. I give up. Will the doc who wrote the thing please stand up and slap this jerk down? I'm tired of disobeying my own rules :-(
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:04 GMT >> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts. That >> explains a lot. > > Doesn't explain a thing to me. Aussies are just people. drgrant is an > ***, but most aren't. Oz is fine. Googlegroups are something else entirely. They're what AOL was and is, and the latest incarnation of the "Is it September again?" syndrome. I suppose it was inevitable that google allow posting, but it would be nice if they'd limited themselves to archiving usenet.
>> > Bev and I don't agree about money. She thinks that you don't get what >> > you pay for. I think that you sometimes do. She thinks that you get [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > just like they do now, and bill Medicare for whatever they can get away > with. That's how Blue Cross Plan F works, except you get to choose your doctors. Since every doctor not actually in jail or indicted for malpractice signs up as a Blue Cross PPO provider, there's no reason to go with anyone not the absolute best.
> I have lifetime health and dental benefits. My health benefits include > refraction and such. If you look at it the right way, Social Security pays for everything. Just subtract the premiums from the payment. Every tooth that's going to rot has rooted and been repaired by now, and even so dental work is kind of limited as to cost -- unless you want grillz, of course :-)
>> > I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy >> > mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > haven't ridden a bike in years and don't plan to. I just made up that > US$30,000. Oh for heaven's sake, and here I was about to start googling!
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:09 GMT > I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts. That > explains a lot. And I hadn't read yours. It appears you are a lesbian Nazi with genital piercings and a penchant for torturing small animals. ROFLOL
What do you know about anything? You obviously know a lot about Australia, like we don't take crap from twits like you.
You may want to killfile me, because it ain't going to get much prettier.
dr grant
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:09 GMT >> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts. That >> explains a lot. > > And I hadn't read yours. It appears you are a lesbian Nazi with genital > piercings and a penchant for torturing small animals. ROFLOL Pretty close, except for the "small" animals thing. I figure I have an unfair advantage if they don't outweigh me. And I work naked. Makes cleanup easier.
> What do you know about anything? You obviously know a lot about > Australia, like we don't take crap from twits like you. > > You may want to killfile me, because it ain't going to get much > prettier. I have three people killfiled. Two are actually pathological, and Otis is merely boring. Sorry, you're going to have to do an awful lot worse than that to make my shitlist.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 02:45 GMT The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 21:48 GMT > F*ck, here we go again. Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed > for some stupid theory with no validation. Of course we ridicule you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to > be making rules for a public forum. See my other post in this thread, a.shole. Occasionally you seem to be an intelligent person. Don't ruin it.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ******************************************* My computer doesn't have to be friendly; civil is entirely sufficient.
Rich - 13 Apr 2006 19:24 GMT > "Rich" <tempo_33@yahoo.com> wrote (snipped) Just as I expected. You know NOTHING about Nearwork-Induced Transient Myopia (NITM).
You say Google those terms in s.m.v. and tell us how ignorant we are. O.K., you asked for it!
The PROOF that you know nothing about NITM is that you have confused it with accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia. Yes, I did Google s.m.v. and saw your posts, which merely confirmed my suspicions.
Accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia concerns the effect of ciliary contraction on the LENS.
NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL ELONGATION. Got it?
(O.K., now I'm being sarcastic. I always start my posts with strictly technical matters, but thanks to the rude responses--most often from the "professionals", things quicky degenerate into name-calling. I'm learning from experts)
BTW, googling NITM on the main Google page doesn't bring up a very good selection of papers (I probably have a better collection than they do), and there is lots of repetition.
And what's this nonsense about?
"But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what the medical establishment tells us. Argue with them".
MY idea? This has been advocated many times over the years. You're confused. I have never, either on s.m.v. or elsewhere, said *anything* about bifocals. Given that I am familiar with PAL studies such as the COMET project, with their disappointing results, why would I advocate the use of bifocals? You're so clever to set up another straw man so you can knock it down.
Now, getting back to your request, ",,,tell us how ignorant we are".
Here's the answer: at least as far as you are concerned, QUITE.
I could add a bit more, but I'm busy. It's tax time.
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 19:56 GMT > (O.K., now I'm being sarcastic. I always start my posts with strictly > technical matters, but thanks to the rude responses--most often from > the "professionals", things quicky degenerate into name-calling. I'm > learning from experts) Rich-
You were cautioned--and I'd say appropriately so--by a guy named DaveK, when you first posted here--that this is an incendiary and inflammatory topic.
It IS that way because most (all) of the participants of this forum are absolutely tired of dealing with Otis Brown--a Johnny One-Note with a whole lot more faith and conviction than actual information.
You couldn't have picked a worse topic for this form, IMO, despite the fact that it's basically a legitimate issue.
You just have to get the context: for some four long years, Otis Brown has stuck both fingers firmly in his ears and shouted his trash at the top of his lungs, roundly refusing to listen, cite references, acknowledge flaws in his hypothesis, own up to flat-out errors in his logic, the dated nature of his 19th century sources, etc., etc.
If it were me, I'd take Dave K up on his offer to take this to his board ... and take Otis with you. You can readily beat this topic to death over there. Sci.med.vision -- again: IMO -- needs a break from myopiagenesis and, more importantly, from Otis Brown.
Scott Seidman - 13 Apr 2006 20:46 GMT "Rich" <tempo_33@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1144952666.396388.102820 @v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:
> Accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia concerns the effect of ciliary > contraction on the LENS. > > NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL > ELONGATION. Got it? Frankly, no, I don't. How about a reference or two? Refereed journals only, please.
FWIW, my understanding is that NITM is characterized entirely by the accomodative response, and how quickly it recovers from near work-- at least in the three or four papers I dug up fairly quickly. That is NITM is a form of accomodative spasm.
There is certainly debate about whether NITM is important in the development of axial myopia, but I can't find a single real reference that somehow suggests that there is some equivalence between NITM and axial myopia. There are hints that one is involved in the other, but I don't think you'll find anyone who would suggest that NITM always causes true myopia. Not "technically", semantically, or otherwise.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2006 23:34 GMT > NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL > ELONGATION. Got it? Unless you're describing transient elongation, accommodation by any other name is still accommodation.
>> "But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't >> work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > confused. I have never, either on s.m.v. or elsewhere, said *anything* > about bifocals. I didn't say you did. I said the benefits of minimizing accommodation don't justify the cost of bifocals. It doesn't justify a second pair of glasses with less minus. In fact, myopes who "minimize accommodation" by taking off their glasses to read continue getting nearsighted at the same rate. Hyperopes without glasses get no more nearsighted than hyperopes who wear them. So where is the value in minimizing accommodation?
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 20:17 GMT > In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to > posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise > engage in non-productive discussion". > > A nice sentiment, but it's frequently violated. I guess you didn't see her footnote, that these concepts don't apply to anybody named "Rich".
> I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which > one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same > thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes > that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually > coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia. I can easily refute this. I read something somewhere, at some time, but I don't remember why, that says the opposite.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 20:22 GMT > I can easily refute this. I read something somewhere, at some time, but > I don't remember why, that says the opposite. I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling.
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 22:07 GMT >> I can easily refute this. I read something somewhere, at some time, but >> I don't remember why, that says the opposite. > > I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling. Me too. Very well-written, and the cites were irrefutable.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ******************************************* My computer doesn't have to be friendly; civil is entirely sufficient.
Rich - 14 Apr 2006 01:45 GMT >, myopia. > > I can easily refute this. I read something somewhere, at some time, but > I don't remember why, that says the opposite. Finally, after all this blab blah blah about I'm nuts, my theory is crazy, no facts to support it, , etc. etc. we get down to the facts, and the fact that supports it strongly, although not completely, is NITM.
You say "I can EASILY refute this. I read SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE, at SOME TIME, but I DON'T REMEMBER why, that says the opposite. (my emphasis).
Neil Brooks confirms it. He says
"I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling".
Now, I won't be surprised at all if somehow you "can't find it" :-)
Try to picture Otis or one of the Batesians, after being asked to provide references for their claims, saying that they read SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE.....etc. You would be ROTFL. Should I mention double standards?
It is now "put your money where your mouth is" time. The non-professionals are always told to provide references, so now it's your turn. I'm looking forward to this. Please don't disappoint me. Of course scientific papers are frequently refuted by another scientific paper, and then that one refuted by still another, so just one paper won't do it, you need a reasonable consensus. In science, things are rarely *completely* settled.
Taking you at your word that you can easily refute this, I say, Great! Let's hear it! You should realize by now that I'm not just another Batesian or Otis. I know physiological optics and I do my homework. And you can relax, I'm not going to drag this out for months and years.
And just to show you what a nice guy I am (despite all your insults) I'm going to help you out. I'm giving you two references below (there are more).
PLUS I'm going to save you 85 bucks! (that's right, for the *paperback*! at Amazon.com). I will also save you the hour and a half that it would take you to read the whole book. I've read it, twice, and if you think you are going to find a refutation of NITM, good luck!
Here they are:
Myopia and Nearwork by Mark Rosenfield and Bernard Gilmartin (Paperback - Sep 15, 1998) Ong, E. and Ciufredda, K. Nearwork-induced transient myopia. Documenta Ophthalmologica 91: 57-85, 1995.
You won't find these by googling--go to Amazon.com.
--Rich
Neil Brooks - 14 Apr 2006 01:51 GMT > >, myopia. > > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > --Rich Hey, Dan: what's he talking about?
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:21 GMT >> >, myopia. >> > [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Hey, Dan: what's he talking about? It's so sad when people miss the joke...
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.
Dan Abel - 14 Apr 2006 03:41 GMT > >> >, myopia. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >> > >> Now, I won't be surprised at all if somehow you "can't find it" :-) Of course not. I just made it up.
> >> Try to picture Otis or one of the Batesians, after being asked to > >> provide references for their claims, saying that they read SOMETHING, > >> SOMEWHERE.....etc. You would be ROTFL. Should I mention double > >> standards? Please do. Thank you. Oh wait, you already did!
> >> It is now "put your money where your mouth is" time. The > >> non-professionals are always told to provide references, so now it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> won't do it, you need a reasonable consensus. In science, things are > >> rarely *completely* settled. The reference is me, myself and I. I just made it up.
> >> Taking you at your word that you can easily refute this, I say, Great! > >> Let's hear it! You should realize by now that I'm not just another > >> Batesian or Otis. I know physiological optics and I do my homework. > >> And you can relax, I'm not going to drag this out for months and years. Just a few weeks, maybe?
I refuted it. Absolutely. And now you want cites?
> >> --Rich > > > > Hey, Dan: what's he talking about? > > It's so sad when people miss the joke... Went right over the top of his head, didn't it?
:-(
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:59 GMT Problem you have here RIch is this is not good evidence and is constantly shot down for lack of credibility. I know, I have quoted all 4 authors in my time.
Currently there is no good evidence for any theory on myopia. All the serious research is not in the behavioural areas. There is scant support for any behavioural theory and the behaviouralists can't come up with anything that can get mainstream research interested.
The current research is aimed at the retinal blur theories and peripheral retina.
I could cite several hundred papers on behavioural theories and research of myopiagenesis, but every time I use one with a colleague, they simply respond with a few that refute it. You can't win this one unless you come up with some proof of your theory. Gilmartin, Rosenfield, Ong and Cuiffreda are hardly taken notice of in mainstream myopia research.
dr grant
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