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Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2006

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Real vs.non-productive discussion and ridicule

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Rich - 13 Apr 2006 03:13 GMT
In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to
posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise
engage in non-productive discussion".

A nice sentiment, but it's frequently violated. I recently submitted a
post on the etiology of myopia, thinking that it might get an
intelligent discussion going.

I was wrong. Dr. Leukoma's response was "Perhaps we should bequeath
this NG to the quacks, once and for all".

I guess that according to him, anybody whose ideas don't agree with his
is a quack.

When I then challenged him to refute my claim about the persistence of
accommodation, I expected an answer along the lines of "Dummy!
Don't you know that it takes about one second for the lens to change
its focus from near to far?".  That's true, as any ophthalmology
textbook will tell you, but that's misleading because it refers only
to a focus change after momentary accommodation.

Instead, I got this:

"I give most readers here credit for high intelligence, Rich.  They
don't need my help to see through you".

How very clever, I thought. He can't refute the claim, so he changes
the subject--to the *ludicrous* charge that I am hiding something!

Then we had Mike Tyner, who appears to have understood only a small
part of my post.

When I pointed out that much of his response was incoherent or had
little or nothing to do with my post, his defense was that "Your
original post wandered from accommodation to myopia, back and forth
again".  I guess he has some difficulty comprehending two (TWO!) ideas
at the same time :-)

Getting back to what this forum *should* be about, how the eye works,
their posts lead me to believe that the optometrists and
ophthalmologists here don't keep up with current research.

For example, they "know" that it is nonsense to claim, as I do, that
accommodation persists long after a nearwork task is completed. They
are completely wrong.

Apparently they are ignorant of the phenomenon of Nearwork-Induced
Transient Myopia (NITM),  also known as accomodative hysteresis. The
evidence from dozens of studies is conclusive, beyond dispute.

When I claim that a significant part of myopia is permanent
accommodation of the lens, it is supported, although indirectly, by
these studies.

One researcher in this field, in a personal communication, assured me
that in some of his studies, what he calls the "decay period" after a
nearwork task is ended can last as long as SIX HOURS.

Consider a person who is an avid reader. He reads for, say, two hours,
probably at a very close distance, as many avid readers do. By this
time his accommodation is at a point that it will take, say, 4 hours to
decay completely.

However, after an hour's rest, he goes back to reading, so that the
lens doesn't have enough time to de-accommodate, thereby causing
another boost to his existing accommodation. After weeks or months of
this nearwork pattern the lens gets to the point that it never
de-accomodates completely.

I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which
one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same
thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes
that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually
coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia.

Unfortunately, he, and as far as I know all the others in this field,
explain this by resorting to the retinal defocus theory, which proposes
that accommodation "lags" behind the amount needed for a given
distance; with the focal point situated behind the retina, there is a
mechanism (they are vague about this) that makes the eye increase its
length so that the retina matches the focal point. Could another
explanation be that the lens fails to fully de-accommodate? They
don't even consider this.

I'll say it again, in the crudest way possible: Myopes are myopic
because they have
accommodated so much and for so long that their lenses have become
permanently accommodated for near vision.

Please don't remind me about axial elongation and heredity. I know
all about it.

The NITM phenomenon is relevant to attempts to slow or stop the
progression of myopia.  The first rule should be: do all you can to
minimize accommodation. When somebody (was it Ace?) advised people to
have frequent rest periods during nearwork and to look in the distance,
he was slammed by some of the professionals, but supported, I believe,
by at least one.

Of course it's important to have gatekeepers to safeguard the
scientific process, but there's such a thing as going too far,  into
"pathological skepticism", as described at

<http://www.amasci.com/freenrg/wbelief1.html>

I was a bit surprised to see the announcement for the 3rd European
Meeting on Physiological Optics, the first time I have seen such a
notice on s.m.v.  I learned of it a couple of months ago and was
thinking of participating, but now I see that DrG and Scott Seidmann
might be there, so I'd better stay away :-)

--Rich
RM - 13 Apr 2006 03:25 GMT
Do you feel better Rich?

=============

> In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to
> posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise
[quoted text clipped - 108 lines]
>
> --Rich
Dr. Leukoma - 13 Apr 2006 03:30 GMT
We understand what Bev means, and we accept it.  What's your problem?

And yes, if you did show up at the conference, someone might come up
behind you and say: BOO!

DrG
Rich - 13 Apr 2006 18:47 GMT
> We understand what Bev means, and we accept it.  What's your problem?
>
> And yes, if you did show up at the conference, someone might come up
> behind you and say: BOO!
>
> DrG

What's the problem?

I don't have one. YOU are the one with a problem.

You say you understand what Bev means and you accept it.
No you don't. You just violated it with your post!

Just to remind you, she says, among other things:

1. The purpose of this forum is to discuss issues related to
eye health and vision care.

2.  It is not to  denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise engage in
non-productive
discussion.

You've just violated two in one short post.

You're unbelievable!
Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2006 05:24 GMT
> Apparently they are ignorant of the phenomenon of Nearwork-Induced
> Transient Myopia (NITM),  also known as accomodative hysteresis.

Also known as accommodative spasm and pseudomyopia. Google those terms in
s.m.v. and tell us how ignorant we are.

> When I claim that a significant part of myopia is permanent
> accommodation of the lens, it is supported, although indirectly, by
> these studies.

It would make more sense if you separated myopia into anatomical and
functional. They usually coexist in young myopes, but the functional
component disappears by 55 or so. Do you think maybe that's why myopes get
better and hyperopes get worse between 30 and 50? A-ha!

> another boost to his existing accommodation. After weeks or
> months of
> this nearwork pattern the lens gets to the point that it never
> de-accomodates completely.

Well, until he goes to sleep, or gets cycloplegic drops, or reaches 50.
Oops... the first two don't completely relax accommodation.

> I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which
> one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same
> thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes
> that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually
> coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia.

Then the ultrasound studies would have found myopia to be caused by
steeper-than-normal lenses. Didn't happen.

But most myopia studies are only concerned with anatomical myopia, so they
use cycloplegic drops to suppress accommodation before taking measurements.

> Unfortunately, he, and as far as I know all the others in this field,
> explain this by resorting to the retinal defocus theory, which proposes
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> explanation be that the lens fails to fully de-accommodate? They
> don't even consider this.

No, they "fully de-accommodate" the lens with cycloplegic drops. Well, not
"fully" but "damn blurry up close."

> I'll say it again, in the crudest way possible: Myopes are myopic
> because they have
> accommodated so much and for so long that their lenses have become
> permanently accommodated for near vision.

So uncorrected hyperopes oughta get better all on their own. Every hyperope
should cure himself.

It doesn't happen, except perhaps in the same proportion that ethnically
similar emmetropes get nearsighted.

> Please don't remind me about axial elongation and heredity. I know
> all about it.

Of course you do.

> The NITM phenomenon is relevant to attempts to slow or stop the
> progression of myopia.  The first rule should be: do all you can to
> minimize accommodation. When somebody (was it Ace?) advised people to
> have frequent rest periods during nearwork and to look in the distance,
> he was slammed by some of the professionals, but supported, I believe,
> by at least one.

Ace gets slammed often, but a broken clock is right twice a day. Most
professionals recommend accommodative breaks. I don't know where you heard
otherwise. But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't
work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what the
medical establishment tells us. Argue with them.

But bookkeepers and uncorrected hyperopes don't all get nearsighted. Why
not?

> Of course it's important to have gatekeepers to safeguard the
> scientific process

Just like it's important to have armchair scientists rehashing old,
discredited theories.

-MT
CatmanX - 13 Apr 2006 14:39 GMT
F*ck, here we go again. Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed
for some stupid theory with no validation. Of course we ridicule you
rich, because you have a stupid theory and no support.

By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys
secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to
be making rules for a public forum.

dr grant
Dick Adams - 13 Apr 2006 15:37 GMT
> ... By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She
> buys secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity
> to be making rules for a public forum.

Well, her posts are neat and properly attributed (you can tell which post
her response is intended for).   Her language tends towards gentile and
she knows when to use capital letters.  She does not spend a lot of
bandwidth arguing with Otis and Ace.  Rulewise, she seems permissive.
One gets the idea she originated this newsgroup.  Maybe she gets a bit
disgusted with it at times.

--
Dicky
(rebuilder of cheap bicycles, and collector of bargain-counter sunglasses)
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 21:52 GMT
>> ... By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She
>> buys secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> bandwidth arguing with Otis and Ace.  Rulewise, she seems permissive.
> One gets the idea she originated this newsgroup.  

AAARRRGGGHHH!  See my first post in this thread.

> Maybe she gets a bit disgusted with it at times.

Compared to other newsgroups, this one is a spring day in the park. Walk
the paths.  Feed the ducks.  Smell the flowers.  Enjoy.

> Dicky
> (rebuilder of cheap bicycles, and collector of bargain-counter sunglasses)

A kindred soul!  Right now I'm thinking of putting my 1980 Suzuki GS550
back in running order.  I collect inexpensive motorcycles, too.  Or at
least I used to.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
  My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
        civil is entirely sufficient.

otisbrown@pa.net - 13 Apr 2006 16:25 GMT
Subject:  Profanity -- that  John Yassar complained about
when Doogle used it.

_____________________________

The professional Dr. Grant:

Also, I think Bev is nice -- and does not deserve this.
Why bring her into the discussion about the
preventive second-opinion?

> F*ck, here we go again.

Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed
> for some stupid theory with no validation.

Of course we ridicule you
> rich, because you have a stupid theory and no support.
>
> By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her.

She buys
> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles.

She also has little validity to
> be making rules for a public forum.
>
> dr grant
The Central Scrutinizer - 13 Apr 2006 16:56 GMT
>By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her.

Nice language! Spouting off venom like that behind the protection of
your keyboard... If you were to talk like that to her face, you'd be in
a world of hurt by now. Have some balls and be polite, why don't you?
otisbrown@pa.net - 13 Apr 2006 18:55 GMT
Yes, Central,

Dr. Grant should appologize to
Bev.

Otis
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 20:33 GMT
> Dr. Grant should appologize to
> Bev.

Quick wrote:

> I'm on the downhill side of old. When it comes to
> medical matters I'm of the opinion that bedside
> manners are highly overated.

And Bev replied:

> I'm not sure which side of the hill I'm on, but I'd be much happier to
> find snarling competent docs who could actually fix me.  I have family
> and friends to hold my hand.

I feel comfortable that she can speak for herself.

To chime in: I quite agree: I'd rather deal with a churlish Dr. Grant
than an affable but insane Otis Brown any day of the week and twice on
Sunday.
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 23:04 GMT
> Quick wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> than an affable but insane Otis Brown any day of the week and twice on
> Sunday.

I'm going to throw in my disagreement here.  Certainly competence is
important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to
follow their advice.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 23:09 GMT
> > Quick wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to
> follow their advice.

It's still a matter of values.  For many people, distrust doesn't
automatically result from being put off by issues of bedside manner.

I might trust a surgeon to cut me, but still have no interest in having
a social beer with him or her.
Quick - 14 Apr 2006 01:24 GMT
> In article
>  <1144956798.205376.75860@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> competence is important, but if you don't trust your
> doctor, you aren't as likely to follow their advice.

I would have to say that trust is something little
effected by manners. I trust a number of boors
and distrust a number of extremely pleasant people.

-Quick
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:11 GMT
>> Quick wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> important, but if you don't trust your doctor, you aren't as likely to
> follow their advice.

Absolutely, but "nice" doesn't necessarily equal "competent".  The jerk
I blame for not catching my mom's retinal problems in time to repair
them in spite of quarterly visits was a really nice little old man, but
he should rot in hell.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 20:34 GMT
> By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys
> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to
> be making rules for a public forum.

Sorry, Bev, your credibility is completely blown.  Until you buy a fleet
of top of the line Mercedes, nobody will pay any attention to what you
post.

And by the way drgrant, do I need to remind you that in Germany, they
use MBs as taxis?  They are cheap there.  Here in the US, they are very
expensive.  It's all marketing.  I assume that it is the same in au,
since you appear to have been snookered into their game.

Bev and I don't agree about money.  She thinks that you don't get what
you pay for.  I think that you sometimes do.  She thinks that you get
what you pay for in medicine.  I disagree (I pay US$15.00 a month for
medical care).  I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy
mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to
$30,000 for the very same truck) or bicycles (the difference between a
US$300 bicycle and one for $30,000 is negligible for the average rider).

And of course, Bev doesn't make any rules here or try to.  She is merely
giving a warning to people that they should read carefully and be aware
that there is some bad advice here.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 22:04 GMT
I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts.  That
explains a lot.

>> By the way who the f*ck is bev and who would listen to her. She buys
>> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of top of the line Mercedes, nobody will pay any attention to what you
> post.

What, buy Kraut Kars?  No way! My great-grandfather brought his family
to the US so that his sons couldn't be inducted into the Prussian army.

> And by the way drgrant, do I need to remind you that in Germany, they
> use MBs as taxis?  They are cheap there.  Here in the US, they are very
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you pay for.  I think that you sometimes do.  She thinks that you get
> what you pay for in medicine.  

No, I don't.  Just because you pay top dollar to a Noted Name, it
doesn't mean that some cheesy carelessness isn't going to kill you.  I
think my MIL died because nobody checked up on her Coumadin dosage, but
I can't prove it.

> I disagree (I pay US$15.00 a month for medical care).

Nifty.  Right now I'm a cash customer, but I'll hit Medicare around the
end of the year.  That will cost me roughly $480/quarter+Medicare Part B
with everying covered except refraction and whatever and however the
drug deductible on Part D/Blue Cross drugs is/are.  I don't think I've
needed more than a couple of $hundred in medstuff over the last 10
years, including stuff like mammograms and blood tests which you just
get on spec.  Health Fairs (coming soon) are an amazingly good deal!

> I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy
> mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to
> $30,000 for the very same truck) or bicycles (the difference between a
> US$300 bicycle and one for $30,000 is negligible for the average rider).

Wow.  Is it possible to buy a $30K bike?  I would have guessed $10K to
be absolute tops unless you want crap like solid gold brake levers etc.

> And of course, Bev doesn't make any rules here or try to.  She is merely
> giving a warning to people that they should read carefully and be aware
> that there is some bad advice here.

If people insist on giving advice, they have to be willing to have other
people insist on ignoring it :-)

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
  My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
        civil is entirely sufficient.

Dan Abel - 14 Apr 2006 00:39 GMT
> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts.  That
> explains a lot.

Doesn't explain a thing to me.  Aussies are just people.  drgrant is an
***, but most aren't.

> > Bev and I don't agree about money.  She thinks that you don't get what
> > you pay for.  I think that you sometimes do.  She thinks that you get
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Nifty.  Right now I'm a cash customer, but I'll hit Medicare around the
> end of the year.

I hit Medicare in several years.  I understand that it will be totally
transparent.  I'll need to sign up, but my HMO will give me services
just like they do now, and bill Medicare for whatever they can get away
with.

I have lifetime health and dental benefits.  My health benefits include
refraction and such.

> > I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy
> > mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Wow.  Is it possible to buy a $30K bike?  I would have guessed $10K to
> be absolute tops unless you want crap like solid gold brake levers etc.

I would never ride a bike without gold brake levers.  Actually, I
haven't ridden a bike in years and don't plan to.  I just made up that
US$30,000.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:02 GMT
You sort of missing the point here.

My point was that Rich is complaining that everyone is not standing up
and applauding him. He quotes a post by Bev.

Who is Bev? What credibility does she have and who gave her the right
to make rules in a public NG?

So far, I have garnered that Bev doesn't know much about eyecare, is
not qualified to give advice on optical matters and believes buying
cheap glasses from cheap optical stores is good advice.  Yet she
continues to post weekly rules for this forum that do not exist.

Rich thinks he has revolutionised the optical industry by rehashing a
tired old theorem that has been long put to bed due to lack of any
credibility. If Rich can come up with some evidence, them we will read
it and critique it, however, he has not provided this in any way shape
or form. Rich does think he has the right to complain because he is
deficient in any thinking skills. He then determines to quote rules
that don't exist in any real sense, by an author who is neither
knowledgable or qualified in the area.

dr grant
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:07 GMT
> You sort of missing the point here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Who is Bev? What credibility does she have and who gave her the right
> to make rules in a public NG?

What rules?  Can't you read?  I know that OzEnglish is a bit different
from YankEnglish, but there's enough commonality that we can actually
carry on a conversation...if desired.

> So far, I have garnered that Bev doesn't know much about eyecare, is
> not qualified to give advice on optical matters and believes buying
> cheap glasses from cheap optical stores is good advice.  Yet she
> continues to post weekly rules for this forum that do not exist.

I give up.  Will the doc who wrote the thing please stand up and slap
this jerk down?  I'm tired of disobeying my own rules :-(

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:04 GMT
>> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts.  That
>> explains a lot.
>
> Doesn't explain a thing to me.  Aussies are just people.  drgrant is an
> ***, but most aren't.

Oz is fine.  Googlegroups are something else entirely.  They're what AOL
was and is, and the latest incarnation of the "Is it September again?"
syndrome.  I suppose it was inevitable that google allow posting, but it
would be nice if they'd limited themselves to archiving usenet.

>> > Bev and I don't agree about money.  She thinks that you don't get what
>> > you pay for.  I think that you sometimes do.  She thinks that you get
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> just like they do now, and bill Medicare for whatever they can get away
> with.

That's how Blue Cross Plan F works, except you get to choose your
doctors.  Since every doctor not actually in jail or indicted for
malpractice signs up as a Blue Cross PPO provider, there's no reason to
go with anyone not the absolute best.

> I have lifetime health and dental benefits.  My health benefits include
> refraction and such.

If you look at it the right way, Social Security pays for everything.
Just subtract the premiums from the payment.  Every tooth that's going
to rot has rooted and been repaired by now, and even so dental work is
kind of limited as to cost -- unless you want grillz, of course :-)

>> > I don't think you get what you pay for in glasses (I buy
>> > mine for 3 for US$18.99), vehicles (my truck sells for US$16,000 to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> haven't ridden a bike in years and don't plan to.  I just made up that
> US$30,000.

Oh for heaven's sake, and here I was about to start googling!

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:09 GMT
> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts.  That
> explains a lot.

And I hadn't read yours. It appears you are a lesbian Nazi with genital
piercings and a penchant for torturing small animals.  ROFLOL

What do you know about anything? You obviously know a lot about
Australia, like we don't take crap from twits like you.

You may want to killfile me, because it ain't going to get much
prettier.

dr grant
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:09 GMT
>> I hadn't previously noticed the origin of Dr. Grant's posts.  That
>> explains a lot.
>
> And I hadn't read yours. It appears you are a lesbian Nazi with genital
> piercings and a penchant for torturing small animals.  ROFLOL

Pretty close, except for the "small" animals thing.  I figure I have an
unfair advantage if they don't outweigh me.  And I work naked.  Makes
cleanup easier.

> What do you know about anything? You obviously know a lot about
> Australia, like we don't take crap from twits like you.
>
> You may want to killfile me, because it ain't going to get much
> prettier.

I have three people killfiled.  Two are actually pathological, and Otis
is merely boring.  Sorry, you're going to have to do an awful lot worse
than that to make my shitlist.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 02:45 GMT
ROFLMAO

Cheers

grant
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 21:48 GMT
> F*ck, here we go again. Another b!tch whinging about being ridiculed
> for some stupid theory with no validation. Of course we ridicule you
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> secondhand glasses and cheap bicycles. She also has little validity to
> be making rules for a public forum.

See my other post in this thread, a.shole.  Occasionally you seem to be
an intelligent person.  Don't ruin it.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
  My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
        civil is entirely sufficient.

Rich - 13 Apr 2006 19:24 GMT
> "Rich" <tempo_33@yahoo.com> wrote (snipped)

Just as I expected. You know NOTHING about Nearwork-Induced Transient
Myopia (NITM).

You say Google those terms in s.m.v. and tell us how ignorant we are.
O.K., you asked for it!

The PROOF that you know nothing about NITM is that you have confused it
with accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia. Yes, I did Google s.m.v. and saw
your posts, which merely confirmed my suspicions.

Accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia concerns the effect of ciliary
contraction on the LENS.

NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL
ELONGATION. Got it?

(O.K., now I'm being sarcastic. I always start my posts with strictly
technical matters, but thanks to the rude responses--most often from
the "professionals", things quicky degenerate into name-calling. I'm
learning from experts)

BTW, googling NITM on the main Google page doesn't bring up a very good
selection of papers (I probably have a better collection than they do),
and there is lots of repetition.

And what's this nonsense about?

"But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't
work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what
the medical establishment tells us. Argue with them".

MY idea? This has been advocated many times over the years. You're
confused. I have never, either on s.m.v. or elsewhere, said *anything*
about bifocals. Given that I am familiar with PAL studies such as the
COMET project, with their disappointing results, why would I advocate
the use of bifocals? You're so clever to set up another straw man so
you can knock it down.

Now, getting back to your request, ",,,tell us how ignorant we
are".

Here's the answer: at least as far as you are concerned, QUITE.

I could add a bit more, but I'm busy. It's tax time.
Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 19:56 GMT
> (O.K., now I'm being sarcastic. I always start my posts with strictly
> technical matters, but thanks to the rude responses--most often from
> the "professionals", things quicky degenerate into name-calling. I'm
> learning from experts)

Rich-

You were cautioned--and I'd say appropriately so--by a guy named DaveK,
when you first posted here--that this is an incendiary and inflammatory
topic.

It IS that way because most (all) of the participants of this forum are
absolutely tired of dealing with Otis Brown--a Johnny One-Note with a
whole lot more faith and conviction than actual information.

You couldn't have picked a worse topic for this form, IMO, despite the
fact that it's basically a legitimate issue.

You just have to get the context: for some four long years, Otis Brown
has stuck both fingers firmly in his ears and shouted his trash at the
top of his lungs, roundly refusing to listen, cite references,
acknowledge flaws in his hypothesis, own up to flat-out errors in his
logic, the dated nature of his 19th century sources, etc., etc.

If it were me, I'd take Dave K up on his offer to take this to his
board ... and take Otis with you.  You can readily beat this topic to
death over there.  Sci.med.vision -- again: IMO -- needs a break from
myopiagenesis and, more importantly, from Otis Brown.
Scott Seidman - 13 Apr 2006 20:46 GMT
"Rich" <tempo_33@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1144952666.396388.102820
@v46g2000cwv.googlegroups.com:

> Accommodative spasm/pseudomyopia concerns the effect of ciliary
> contraction on the LENS.
>
> NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL
> ELONGATION. Got it?

Frankly, no, I don't.   How about a reference or two? Refereed journals
only, please.

FWIW, my understanding is that NITM is characterized entirely by the
accomodative response, and how quickly it recovers from near work-- at
least in the three or four papers I dug up fairly quickly.  That is NITM is
a form of accomodative spasm.

There is certainly debate about whether NITM is important in the
development of axial myopia, but I can't find a single real reference that
somehow suggests that there is some equivalence between NITM and axial
myopia.  There are hints that one is involved in the other, but I don't
think you'll find anyone who would suggest that NITM always causes true
myopia.  Not "technically", semantically, or otherwise.

Signature

Scott
Reverse name to reply

Mike Tyner - 13 Apr 2006 23:34 GMT
> NITM refers to the mechanism by which accommodation causes AXIAL
> ELONGATION. Got it?

Unless you're describing transient elongation, accommodation by any other
name is still accommodation.

>> "But we tried your idea about minimizing accommodation. It doesn't
>> work well enough to justify the cost of bifocals. At least that's what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> confused. I have never, either on s.m.v. or elsewhere, said *anything*
> about bifocals.

I didn't say you did. I said the benefits of minimizing accommodation don't
justify the cost of bifocals. It doesn't justify a second pair of glasses
with less minus. In fact, myopes who "minimize accommodation" by taking off
their glasses to read continue getting nearsighted at the same rate.
Hyperopes without glasses get no more nearsighted than hyperopes who wear
them. So where is the value in minimizing accommodation?
Dan Abel - 13 Apr 2006 20:17 GMT
> In her weekly post, the Real Bev warns us: "Please do not reply to
> posters in an effort to denounce, ridicule, embarrass or otherwise
> engage in non-productive discussion".
>
> A nice sentiment, but it's frequently violated.

I guess you didn't see her footnote, that these concepts don't apply to
anybody named "Rich".

> I proposed this some time ago, and later discovered a paper in which
> one of the leading researchers in this field proposed the very same
> thing. I don't have the paper at hand, but essentially he hypothesizes
> that consecutive periods of transient accommodation could eventually
> coalesce so as to produce a permanent condition, myopia.

I can easily refute this.  I read something somewhere, at some time, but
I don't remember why, that says the opposite.

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

Neil Brooks - 13 Apr 2006 20:22 GMT
> I can easily refute this.  I read something somewhere, at some time, but
> I don't remember why, that says the opposite.

I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling.
The Real Bev - 13 Apr 2006 22:07 GMT
>> I can easily refute this.  I read something somewhere, at some time, but
>> I don't remember why, that says the opposite.
>
> I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling.

Me too.  Very well-written, and the cites were irrefutable.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*******************************************
  My computer doesn't have to be friendly;
        civil is entirely sufficient.

Rich - 14 Apr 2006 01:45 GMT
>, myopia.
>
> I can easily refute this.  I read something somewhere, at some time, but
> I don't remember why, that says the opposite.

Finally, after all this blab blah blah about I'm nuts, my theory is
crazy, no facts to support it, , etc. etc. we get down to the facts,
and the fact that supports it strongly, although not completely, is
NITM.

You say "I can EASILY refute this. I read SOMETHING, SOMEWHERE, at SOME
TIME, but I DON'T REMEMBER why, that says the opposite.  (my emphasis).

Neil Brooks  confirms it. He says

"I actually read that one, too. Quite compelling".

Now, I won't  be surprised at all if  somehow you "can't find it"  :-)

Try to picture Otis or one of the Batesians, after being asked to
provide references for their claims, saying that they read SOMETHING,
SOMEWHERE.....etc. You would be ROTFL. Should I mention double
standards?

It is now "put your money where your mouth is" time. The
non-professionals are always told to provide references, so now it's
your turn. I'm looking forward to this. Please don't disappoint me.  Of
course scientific papers are frequently refuted by another  scientific
paper, and then that one refuted by still another, so just one paper
won't do it, you need a reasonable consensus. In  science, things are
rarely *completely* settled.

Taking you at your word that you can easily refute this, I say,  Great!
Let's hear it!  You should realize by now that I'm not just another
Batesian or Otis. I know physiological optics and I do my homework.
And you can relax, I'm not going to drag this out for months and years.

And just to show you what a nice guy I am (despite all your insults)
I'm going to help you out. I'm giving you two references below (there
are more).

PLUS I'm going to save you 85 bucks!  (that's right, for the
*paperback*! at Amazon.com).  I will also save you the hour and a half
that it would take you to read the whole book. I've read it, twice, and
if you think you are going to find a refutation of NITM, good luck!

Here they are:

Myopia and Nearwork by Mark Rosenfield and Bernard Gilmartin (Paperback
- Sep 15, 1998)
Ong, E. and Ciufredda, K. Nearwork-induced transient myopia. Documenta
Ophthalmologica 91: 57-85, 1995.

You won't find these by googling--go to Amazon.com.

--Rich
Neil Brooks - 14 Apr 2006 01:51 GMT
> >, myopia.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> --Rich

Hey, Dan: what's he talking about?
The Real Bev - 14 Apr 2006 02:21 GMT
>> >, myopia.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
>
> Hey, Dan: what's he talking about?

It's so sad when people miss the joke...

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While you can't fool all the people all the time, you can fool
enough of them most of the time to make the rest impotent.

Dan Abel - 14 Apr 2006 03:41 GMT
> >> >, myopia.
> >> >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> >>
> >> Now, I won't  be surprised at all if  somehow you "can't find it"  :-)

Of course not.  I just made it up.

> >> Try to picture Otis or one of the Batesians, after being asked to
> >> provide references for their claims, saying that they read SOMETHING,
> >> SOMEWHERE.....etc. You would be ROTFL. Should I mention double
> >> standards?

Please do.  Thank you.  Oh wait, you already did!

> >> It is now "put your money where your mouth is" time. The
> >> non-professionals are always told to provide references, so now it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >> won't do it, you need a reasonable consensus. In  science, things are
> >> rarely *completely* settled.

The reference is me, myself and I.  I just made it up.

> >> Taking you at your word that you can easily refute this, I say,  Great!
> >> Let's hear it!  You should realize by now that I'm not just another
> >> Batesian or Otis. I know physiological optics and I do my homework.
> >> And you can relax, I'm not going to drag this out for months and years.

Just a few weeks, maybe?

I refuted it.  Absolutely.  And now you want cites?

> >> --Rich
> >
> > Hey, Dan: what's he talking about?
>
> It's so sad when people miss the joke...

Went right over the top of his head, didn't it?

:-(

Signature

Dan Abel
dabel@sonic.net
Petaluma, California, USA

CatmanX - 14 Apr 2006 01:59 GMT
Problem you have here RIch is this is not good evidence and is
constantly shot down for lack of credibility. I know, I have quoted all
4 authors in my time.

Currently there is no good evidence for any theory on myopia. All the
serious research is not in the behavioural areas. There is scant
support for any behavioural theory and the behaviouralists can't come
up with anything that can get mainstream research interested.

The current research is aimed at the retinal blur theories and
peripheral retina.

I could cite several hundred papers on behavioural theories and
research of myopiagenesis, but every time I use one with a colleague,
they simply respond with a few that refute it. You can't win this one
unless you come up with some proof of your theory. Gilmartin,
Rosenfield, Ong and Cuiffreda are hardly taken notice of in mainstream
myopia research.

dr grant
 
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