Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2006
Tales From the Front
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doctor_my_eye@msn.com - 23 Mar 2006 19:31 GMT I want to take a minute here to reflect on the deteriorating relationship between optometrists and ophthalmologists. Most of you know that I have been practicing for 25 years, but I doubt if many of you know how rapidly that things have deteriorated on the OD-MD relationship front.
When LASIK first started going like gangbusters 5 years ago, organized ophthalmology went way out of its way to befriend the profession of optometry. Optometrists had always been a good referral source for cataract surgery, but when refractive surgery started growing there was
a whole new dynamic. Ophthalmology practices were full of old people with cataracts and glaucoma, they often didn't have the healthy young myopic patients that were candidates for LASIK. The optometrists were the "gatekeepers" of the millions of healthy myopes who could stream into a refractive surgery practice. In 2001 I was offered 800 dollars for each LASIK that I referred, and I was offered a 10,000 dollar "honorarium" for having LASIK done myself. Needless to say, I never took the bait.
Now that the LASIK industry has learned that direct-to-consumer advertising works so well for LASIK, the optometrist is no longer needed as a referral source. Ophthalmology never really liked the fact that optometrists kept getting more and more education and more treatment privledges every year, but they learned to live with it since
they were referring those myopes.
Now, the gloves are off. The American Academy of Ophthalmology has passed a resolution that FORBIDS optometrists from taking educational seminars at ophthalmology meetings. They argued that optometrists get more prescribing privledges in state laws only because they steal knowledge from MD conventions.
This war has escalated again when the ACRS (Academy of Corneal and Refractive Surgery) decided they will now ban optometrists from their meetings as well. Instead of viewing the optometrist as a partner in the continuing care of patients that we are supposed to be, the OD is forbidden from attending lectures about refractive surgery and care of surgical complications.
The old adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face works well
here. I noticed a thread here about "help me find an optometrist who hates my refractive surgeon." There are now thousands of us that despise this new warfare. I find it easier than ever to find an optometrist who wouldn't refer for LASIK and is totally disgusted by the politics from the front.
_________________ For resources, check www.doctormyeye.com
Scott Seidman - 23 Mar 2006 20:06 GMT > The old adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face works well > here. IMO, there's more than enough blame to go around. Comanagement has always been one of those ethically borderline gray areas, and many OD's jumped right on that bandwagon. Accepting money for a referral without comanagement (and I certainly hope the $800 per referral you were talking about included comanagement) is no longer borderline, but firmly on the wrong side of the line. It was a marraige of convenience, only one side didn't know it. The MD's were gambling that the public would want an entirely elective surgery with inherent risks, and that liability issues would not kill the field before it started. The OD's must have been hoping that they would always be the gatekeepers for these elective procedures.
As a patient, I've always been a little gun shy about the prescribing privileges extended to OD's. It might be OK, but it would be hard to argue that the OD gets the same level of training that an MD does in terms of general physiology (you can't give an eye a drug without giving the whole system a drug), renal and hepatic function (you got to clear the drug, and understand drug clearance to understand dosing), as well as pharmacokinetics. MD's also receive more extensive training in history taking. In addition, their progression from student to full functional doctor working without supervision is more gradual.
Push comes to shove, OD organizations can certainly support their own continuing education, and even hire MD's to run the courses, if necessary. You can't expect dues-based professional organizations to support the education of a population that the membership believes is in direct competition for the memberships patients.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
William Stacy - 23 Mar 2006 21:09 GMT Wrong on almost every point.
O.D.s today often are WAY more knowledgable on pharmacokinetics than are many, many o.m.d.s. Optometrists still manage and "co-manage" lasik cases and the paradigm still works very well, among those o.m.d.s who are not too greedy and can see the benefit of o.d.s managing the cases. Sure there is some national politics going on that are as nasty as ever, maybe even nastier, but those are POLITICS, which always suck, regardless of the subject matter.
w.stacy, o.d.
>>The old adage about cutting off your nose to spite your face works well >>here. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > education of a population that the membership believes is in direct > competition for the memberships patients. Scott Seidman - 23 Mar 2006 22:42 GMT > Wrong on almost every point. Obvoiusly, we disagree
> O.D.s today often are WAY more knowledgable on pharmacokinetics than > are many, many o.m.d.s. You bring up pharmacokinetics specifically, but there's a whole lot behind that. While we're not your "typical" med school curriculum, I can point you to our site. While atypical, the content is strictly regulated. It might be repackaged, but it teaches the same stuff as every other US med program.
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/smd/CA/dh/DhMap.pdf is the time line with http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/smd/CA/dh/principles.html#outline being sort of a key
Essentially the whole first year has three courses running through it. 1/3 the work is basic anatomy, physiology, and histology. Of the 2/3 remaining, I'd say about 10-15% of that is pharmacology.
Year 2: 1/3 the neurosciences, w/ neuropharmacology taking about 10%-15% of that. The rest of Year 2 is integrated systems, with the relevant pharmacology discussed within the context of the system. Pharmacokinetics is a major portion of the renal systems discussions.
With specific reference to pharmacokinetics, the training OD might get a tad more specific coursework, but when you throw in pharmacology taught in context of the affected systems and physiology, there's a good bit of that. Add to that the idea that the intensive physiology can only add to the mechanistic understanding of drug action.
> Optometrists still manage and "co-manage" lasik > cases and the paradigm still works very well, among those o.m.d.s who > are not too greedy and can see the benefit of o.d.s managing the > cases. The comanagement arrangement has been ethically borderline since its inception. There's a ton of literature on it, and I'm sure you've read a good deal of it. I'm pretty sure I recall that years back you shared some of your views on it in this forum. After a few years of a big free for all, HHS expressed real concern, and some of the professional societies came up with some guidelines which may or may not be all encompassing. It's not hard to come up with some challenging situations for an OD to find himself in. Googling for "lasik comanagement ethics" yields a fine number of hits.
Try http://archopht.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/120/1/71 for a good 2002 review, if you can get in without a password.
Yes, comanagement can work well for the patient, but the financial benefit of sending a surgeon referrals cannot be ignored. You mention the greed of the OMD, but I'm sure you wouldn't have to search too hard to find a greedy OD or two, especially from the wild days before guidelines were published.
To your credit, in 2000 you said "Having said that, I also admit to feeling the financial pressure to encourage people to take the leap into LASIK because I do make money from it, but at least that human frailty is tempered by the knowledge that if the patient has a bad outcome, I'M THE ONE TO WHOM THEY WILL BRING THEIR COMPLAINTS. This might be one reason the surgeons I work with have embraced this paradigm. You might say we are buffers both before and after the fact."
Interestingly enough, one of the real problems with comanagement is that if not careful, the patient could feel that the ultimate responsibility for postop care lies with the OD. The AAO's clear position is that it must be made perfectly clear to the patient that the surgeon has ultimate responsibility for the care.
In 1998, you wrote "This co-management thing is a new incentive, indeed. If the money skews the O.D.s thinking about what's best for the patient, that's a real shame. I agree with the idea that if a doc (any type) PUSHES hard for a patient to buy into ANYTHING that is obviously optional, run, don't walk, out of the office. "
Here's our Vision Center's policy on comanagement, from their FAQ: "Can you work with my regular eye doctor? In order to make the process of care as comfortable as possible for you, we offer to co-manage with your current ophthalmologist or optometrist. You may choose to have your pre-operative evaluation, treatment and one day post-op visit at StrongVision with the balance of your post-op care provided by your personal eye doctor. If you would like to do this, we will reduce our surgical fee by a set amount per eye treated and your personal eye doctor will charge you a separate fee for their care. Please discuss this option with your eye doctor prior to the time of your evaluation. "
> Sure there is some national politics going on that are as nasty as > ever, maybe even nastier, but those are POLITICS, which always suck, > regardless of the subject matter. > > w.stacy, o.d. The original poster complained that the surgeons buddied up to the OD's because they thought that the OD's served as recruiters for the procedure. Frankly, if that's really the case, to quote Mel Brooks, "it stinks on ice", and there are no innocents.
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Mike Tyner - 23 Mar 2006 22:52 GMT > taking. In addition, their progression from student to full functional > doctor working without supervision is more gradual. The progression from student to fully licensed dentist is only four years. Are you equally uneasy about your dentist using oral antibiotics?
-MT
Scott Seidman - 23 Mar 2006 23:25 GMT >> taking. In addition, their progression from student to full >> functional doctor working without supervision is more gradual. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -MT To a certain extent. I'm a WHOLE lot more concerned about dentists using dental anesthesia. If I EVER need dental surgery requiring anesthesia, I will find a dentist that uses a real live anesthesiologist. Oddly enough, many dentists would agree with this.
As to antibiotics, dental patients might not always be getting the optimal agent, and the use of dental antibiotics for prophylaxis is probably over the top. Aside from that, the use of dental antibiotics is fairly routine. Pain killers, of course, are a matter of practicality for dentists.
Now, let's look at the differences between anesthesia and antibiotics. Antibiotics are fairly routine. Even so, there are a certain number of things to ask about before prescribing them, like allergies. If the patient has an allergic reaction, the doctor will treat it, not the dentist. Other than that, they're relatively safe.
Anesthesia is a different story. Anything can happen. An anesthesiologist will understand osmotic balance, the homeostatic regulation thereof, and whether isoosmotic or hyperosmotic IV solutions are called for. An anesthesiologist will understand acid-base regulation, and the involvement of the respiratory system and the renal system in this regulation. An anesthesiologist will maintain the plane of anesthesia at the lightest level appropriate for the procedure, and dedicate full attention to the patient, not splitting his time between the patient and the dental procedure.
We can both agree that there should be a fuzzy line somewhere that separates the therapeutic options of the opthalmologist from the therapeutic options of the optometrist. Where is this? Should the OD have the whole PDR at his disposal? If an OD sees pale spots on a retina, should he request an MRI and prescribe interferon based on the findings? We're probably both safely in the "No" circle here. Should an OD treat a papiloedema? Retinal bleeding? Acquired nystagmus? When a patient comes with migraine aura, should you treat the migraine?
Just out of curiosity, what therapeutic options is the OD community lobbying for that they don't already have?
 Signature Scott Reverse name to reply
Mike Tyner - 24 Mar 2006 00:32 GMT > Now, let's look at the differences between anesthesia and antibiotics. > Antibiotics are fairly routine. Even so, there are a certain number of > things to ask about before prescribing them, like allergies. If the > patient has an allergic reaction, the doctor will treat it, not the > dentist. Other than that, they're relatively safe. And if the doctor is a pediatrician, he'll prescribe antibiotic drops over the phone for viral pinkeye.
> Just out of curiosity, what therapeutic options is the OD community > lobbying for that they don't already have? Some states don't have orals, some can't prescribe for glaucoma, things like that.
-MT
William Stacy - 24 Mar 2006 02:53 GMT > Some states don't have orals, some can't prescribe for glaucoma, things like > that. In CA we have orals and glaucoma meds, but the Tx of glaucoma is restricted to those who in a 2 year period have treated under the "guidance" of an o.m.d., AND take more coursework in glaucoma meds than the o.m.d.s get,AND take many extra CE hours just on glaucoma, AND take and pass another exam. This onerous, almost impossible legal gauntlet was thrown down by org. ophth. to slow us down, but we do want to Tx glaucoma and will no doubt do a better job than they do once we get through it all.
Someone should compare the prescribing habits of o.d.s who are Txing glaucoma and o.m.d.s who are. I'll bet the o.d.s are using far more up to date Rxing regimens on the average...
w.stacy, o.d.
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Mar 2006 15:25 GMT > As a patient, I've always been a little gun shy about the prescribing > privileges extended to OD's. It might be OK, but it would be hard to argue [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > taking. In addition, their progression from student to full functional > doctor working without supervision is more gradual. This debate has been going on ever since optometrists started to charge for eye examinations. You are probably a little biased. I remember taking quite a bit of physiology, and it was one of the more interesting courses, ditto neurology. Clinical work also started during the second year. I remember that one of my classmates transferred to medical school after his second year. On a return visit, he remarked that he was distinctly disappointed in finding that his optometric curriculum was more rigorous.
> Push comes to shove, OD organizations can certainly support their own > continuing education, and even hire MD's to run the courses, if necessary. > You can't expect dues-based professional organizations to support the > education of a population that the membership believes is in direct > competition for the memberships patients. Many of my professors were MD's who also taught at local medical schools (Chicago). Many others held Ph.D.s. At the time, there were no "optometric-only" texts, and no profession can have a monopoly on knowledge, at least for long. About the time I got out of school, there was a push to train more OD's as educators in the basic life sciences.
DrG
EyeTech - 27 Mar 2006 13:47 GMT I worked for a full time ophthalmology practice at one time and for a practice that is primarily optometric with general ophthalmology approx. once a week. I think that ophthalmologists and optometrist both have different qualities to offer.
The primary differences I have noted are that ophth M.D.'s focus on the patient's eye and total health. They feel comfortable treating more complicated cases. While the O.D. does a thorough job at finding and diagnosing eye diseases, he isn't always comfortable with following them and often refers them to a specialist or the general ophthalmologist. Also the O.D. focuses a little more on eyeglasses prescriptions. Perhaps that's because as an O.D. income is generated from glasses sales and not from surgery as an M.D.'s??
In reading some of the ophthalmology journals I understood the tension between O.D.s and ophthalmologists to be due to the fact that O.D.s were trying to get (laser) surgical privileges, not so much prescribing rights.
We have good O.D./ophthalmology relationships in our area. Sometimes the O.D.s who get a little competitive amongst themselves.
EyeTech
>> As a patient, I've always been a little gun shy about the prescribing >> privileges extended to OD's. It might be OK, but it would be hard to [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > DrG Dr. Leukoma - 27 Mar 2006 14:34 GMT > I worked for a full time ophthalmology practice at one time and for a > practice that is primarily optometric with general ophthalmology approx. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > because as an O.D. income is generated from glasses sales and not from > surgery as an M.D.'s?? It is true that the emphasis of the optometric education has traditionally been built around vision correction, and that there are still ongoing debates within the profession regarding the proper emphasis within the curriculum. But, there are a couple of things that obviously come into play. The first and primary reason is that most O.D.'s do not have hospital privileges, and so cannot follow some patients even if they wanted to. The other reason is that O.D.'s are simply conditioned to refer from a medical-legal standpoint. I don't care what is learned in school, if you don't use it, you lose it. Since your work setting has always involved some type of O.D./M.D. formal relationship, you are going to see more referrals and more cooperation. One of the O.D.'s who was seeing patients when I was out of town referred a young woman with sudden onset of unilateral floaters to an O.M.D. I saw the young woman on followup. I would not have made that referral since I was able to rule-out any retinal pathology.
> In reading some of the ophthalmology journals I understood the tension > between O.D.s and ophthalmologists to be due to the fact that O.D.s were > trying to get (laser) surgical privileges, not so much prescribing rights. The fact is that the most bitter turf battles have occurred over things like the right to use topical diagnostic pharmaceutical agents. If a profession doesn't evolve, then it will perish. My dentist could pull wisdom teeth, but sends that work across the hall to the oral surgeon who then refers the patient back. How many of the laser MD's tell their LASIK patients to go back to their optometrist for regular annual checkups?
> We have good O.D./ophthalmology relationships in our area. Sometimes the > O.D.s who get a little competitive amongst themselves. Once, having been angered by some comments I heard back from a certain principle in a large retinal practice about an unnecessary referral, I asked if I could spend a day in the practice doing grand rounds. It was one of the most productive days I ever spent. Not only was I able to see some interesting cases, but I learned that every general O.M.D. in the area was referring for exactly the same reasons I was referring, and it gave me much more confidence.
Anyway, I like referring patients to other specialists, especially when they say nice things about me to my patients.... ;-)
DrG
EyeTech - 28 Mar 2006 03:37 GMT I guess I now work in a unique situation. We have a LASIK surgeon on staff, so all our pre- and postop workups are done by the O.D.'s. We also have a good working realtionship with a retinal practice and have heard back from their techs that all our referring diagnoses have been right on target. EyeTech
>> I worked for a full time ophthalmology practice at one time and for a >> practice that is primarily optometric with general ophthalmology approx. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > DrG Dr. Leukoma - 28 Mar 2006 03:47 GMT > I guess I now work in a unique situation. We have a LASIK surgeon on staff, > so all our pre- and postop workups are done by the O.D.'s. We also have a > good working realtionship with a retinal practice and have heard back from > their techs that all our referring diagnoses have been right on target. > EyeTech Uhuh. Did your practice ever refer a large choroidal nevus just because they wanted another opinion? Sometimes, even though you think you are right, you want someone else to agree simply because the risk of being wrong is unacceptably high.
I also don't do fluorescein angiograms.
DrG
Salmon Egg - 28 Mar 2006 06:40 GMT On 3/27/06 6:47 PM, in article 1143514025.089375.249050@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com, "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote:
> I also don't do fluorescein angiograms. Why is that? It strikes me that the fluorescein angiograms themselves should be easy. My guess is that the hard part is interpretation and all the things that may go wrong.
Bill -- Ferme le Bush
EyeTech - 28 Mar 2006 14:15 GMT I think it helps to have a good relationship with a retinal specialist who takes the urgent cases along with the ones like the nevus (which could have as easily been melanoma); the ones to be better safe than sorry. Patient's appreciate that too. I'm sorry you don't have a good network. It's ultimately most beneficial to the patients.
We don't do fluorescein either. The retina doc who comes to our office once a month does, but not while he is in our office.
>> I guess I now work in a unique situation. We have a LASIK surgeon on >> staff, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DrG Dr. Leukoma - 28 Mar 2006 14:58 GMT > I think it helps to have a good relationship with a retinal specialist who > takes the urgent cases along with the ones like the nevus (which could have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > We don't do fluorescein either. The retina doc who comes to our office once > a month does, but not while he is in our office. I'm sorry that I gave that impression. I was simply addressing your observations that were formed by your personal experiences working in multi-disciplinary practices with nice "formal" in-house relationships. I am a solo practitioner whose practice spans two decades, from the time when a standing order from an M.D. was needed just to dilate patients to now being able to use orals. Each privilege was followed by 90 hours of continuing education.
The incident prompting the grand rounds happened nearly 20 years/ago. At that time, the principle was well-known for his gruff manner. In fact, he brought one of my patients to tears. Now, he often gives me the results personally over the phone. I enjoy collegial relationships with all of the sub-specialists. I've been around for two decades, they all know me, and enjoy the quality of my referrals, which have included such catches as choroidal melanoma, choroidal hemorrhage, pars plana cysts, pars planitis, several pseudotumor cerebris, and four cases of early and atypical ancanthamoeba keratitis within a 6 month period -- including the earliest case ever documented by the local acanthamoeba expert, to name a few. If I need to bypass the bureaucracy at the local university medical center, I have the personal line to one of the faculty chairs.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Mar 2006 15:13 GMT > The incident prompting the grand rounds happened nearly 20 years/ago. > At that time, the principle was well-known for his gruff manner. That should read 'principal' not 'principle.'
Dick Adams - 27 Mar 2006 17:50 GMT > I think that ophthalmologists and optometrist both have > different qualities to offer. > > The primary differences I have noted are that ophth M.D.'s > focus on the patient's eye and total health. MD's do not do mundane things like refractions. Around where I live, they train young women to do them.
> They feel comfortable treating more complicated cases. That goes for ODs as well. ODs have got their plates filled up with the intricacies of contact lenses and other complicated eye issues. Very few these days have any patience with stuff like phoropters.
> While the O.D. does a thorough job at finding and diagnosing > eye diseases, he isn't always comfortable with following them and > often refers them to a specialist or the general ophthalmologist. It would be nice to just get a prescription, maybe a pressure check. Used to be possible.
> Also the O.D. focuses a little more on eyeglasses prescriptions. An OD is less likely turn you over to a locally-trained phoropter jockey. (Maybe that's good, may it isn't.)
> Perhaps that's because as an O.D. income is generated from glasses > sales and not from surgery as an M.D.'s?? My eye guy hardly has time for glasses anymore. People like him for contacts.
-- Dicky
otisbrown@pa.net - 27 Mar 2006 18:25 GMT Dear Dicky,
Subject: What are you saying here?
> They feel comfortable treating more complicated cases. Dicky> That goes for ODs as well. ODs have got their plates filled up
with the intricacies of contact lenses and other complicated eye issues.
Dicky> Very few these days have any patience with stuff like phoropters.
Otis> Are you suggesting that ANYONE with some brief training can put a minus lens in front of you face -- and give you a prescription?
Otis> You are ALMOST saying you could operate the phoropter -- and determine your own prescription!!!
Best,
Otis
Mike Tyner - 27 Mar 2006 20:19 GMT > That goes for ODs as well. ODs have got their plates filled up > with the intricacies of contact lenses and other complicated eye > issues. Very few these days have any patience with stuff like > phoropters. Most ODs don't delegate refraction.
-MT
The Real Bev - 28 Mar 2006 01:42 GMT >> I think that ophthalmologists and optometrist both have different >> qualities to offer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > MD's do not do mundane things like refractions. Around where I live, > they train young women to do them. I see. You regard refraction as a sufficiently simple, possibly brainless, job that even young women, presumably of less-than-normal intelligence, can be trained to do it. Young men, of course, are more intelligent and would set their sights higher.
While I personally wouldn't choose to rip your nads off and stuff them down your throat, I'm sure there are those with no such compunction. Be warned.
The ophthalmologist I went to handed me off to an incompetent older man to fit me for contact lenses. First he ordered lenses from a company that didn't make the size he ordered, which he didn't notice until I called up two weeks later and asked about the lenses. Then he forgot to place the order with a different company, which again was not discovered until I called in a few weeks later.
Yeah, I got my money back.
 Signature Cheers, Bev ==================================== Start worrying -- details to follow.
Dan Abel - 28 Mar 2006 01:51 GMT > > MD's do not do mundane things like refractions. Around where I live, > > they train young women to do them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be trained to do it. Young men, of course, are more intelligent and would > set their sights higher. I'm sure that Dicky meant that only women are competent to do refractions, that men lack the intelligence, sensitivity and perception to do these. I'm sure that's what he meant.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
The Real Bev - 28 Mar 2006 07:10 GMT >> > MD's do not do mundane things like refractions. Around where I live, >> > they train young women to do them. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > refractions, that men lack the intelligence, sensitivity and perception > to do these. I'm sure that's what he meant. Yes, I'm sure you're right. Nobody could POSSIBLY make so boorish a statement as I had originally surmised. Certainly nobody who still sings baritone.
 Signature Cheers, Bev =============================================================== Never try to extort more than it would cost to have you killed.
otisbrown@pa.net - 28 Mar 2006 15:48 GMT Dear Bev,
Actually, I think Dicky meant good-looking young women.
Maybe Dicky could clarify his intent.
Best,
Otis
EyeTech - 28 Mar 2006 03:27 GMT Both young men and women are trained to be "phoropter jockeys" where I live. Even with an O.D. in the office we still get to utilize our "locally-trained" skills. The prescribing isn't just in the subjective refraction - that info all comes from the patient responses.
EyeTech ("Phoropter Jockey")
> I think that ophthalmologists and optometrist both have > different qualities to offer. > > The primary differences I have noted are that ophth M.D.'s > focus on the patient's eye and total health. MD's do not do mundane things like refractions. Around where I live, they train young women to do them.
> They feel comfortable treating more complicated cases. That goes for ODs as well. ODs have got their plates filled up with the intricacies of contact lenses and other complicated eye issues. Very few these days have any patience with stuff like phoropters.
> While the O.D. does a thorough job at finding and diagnosing > eye diseases, he isn't always comfortable with following them and > often refers them to a specialist or the general ophthalmologist. It would be nice to just get a prescription, maybe a pressure check. Used to be possible.
> Also the O.D. focuses a little more on eyeglasses prescriptions. An OD is less likely turn you over to a locally-trained phoropter jockey. (Maybe that's good, may it isn't.)
> Perhaps that's because as an O.D. income is generated from glasses > sales and not from surgery as an M.D.'s?? My eye guy hardly has time for glasses anymore. People like him for contacts.
-- Dicky
Salmon Egg - 28 Mar 2006 06:35 GMT On 3/27/06 6:27 PM, in article 122h7peb7vi5547@corp.supernews.com, "EyeTech" <nobody@socket.net> wrote:
> Both young men and women are trained to be "phoropter jockeys" where I live. > Even with an O.D. in the office we still get to utilize our > "locally-trained" skills. The prescribing isn't just in the subjective > refraction - that info all comes from the patient responses. Why should the patient not be the phoropter jockey? It strikes me that "1 better or 2 better" is an invitation to error.
Bill -- Ferme le Bush
Dan Abel - 27 Mar 2006 19:04 GMT > This debate has been going on ever since optometrists started to charge > for eye examinations. We've had many debates on this newsgroup about HMOs vs private practice. One thing I like about my HMO is that there is no competition between ODs and MDs. They are both on salary, and losing a patient for a procedure involves a loss of workload, not a loss of money. The eye clinics are staffed roughly half with ODs and MDs. They share the staff and office space (although not exam rooms, I suspect). Although the MDs have phoropters in their exam rooms, they very seldom do refractions. Those are referred to the ODs.
A new patient *cannot* make an appointment with an MD. They must be referred by an OD.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Dr. Leukoma - 27 Mar 2006 20:22 GMT > > This debate has been going on ever since optometrists started to charge > > for eye examinations. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > have phoropters in their exam rooms, they very seldom do refractions. > Those are referred to the ODs. Many of the subspecialists do not refract. On the other hand, having OD's do nothing but refract and fit contacts is underutilization, IMHO. The only good thing about an HMO is that the costs are transparent to the consumer, but they are shifted to somebody else. HMO's are all but defunct here in Texas.
Now, I better hunker down in my foxhole.
DrG
Dan Abel - 27 Mar 2006 23:05 GMT > > In article <1143210344.762055.298890@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> > and office space (although not exam rooms, I suspect). Although the MDs > > have phoropters in their exam rooms, they very seldom do refractions. > > Those are referred to the ODs. > > Many of the subspecialists do not refract. On the other hand, having > OD's do nothing but refract and fit contacts is underutilization, IMHO. Frankly, I don't know what all the ODs do. I didn't mean to imply that they only do refraction, though. I just posted that the MDs don't generally do refractions, but refer those to the ODs.
> The only good thing about an HMO is that the costs are transparent to > the consumer, but they are shifted to somebody else. HMO's are all but > defunct here in Texas. They collect a healthy premium from the members (or usually, their employers). Then they provide health services to them. It's true, my wife and I (actually our employers) paid lots of money for many years, and received very few services, because we didn't need them. Then we had children, who are always getting sick. Then my eyes fell apart, and I needed lots of services. Is this what you mean when you posted "shifted to somebody else"?
A true HMO (which is what I belong to) emphasizes prevention rather than cure. This is healthier for the patient. Surgery is minimised, and general anesthesia is not used if possible. These things reduce risk to the patient. The rate of Csections is much less at my HMO than at most hospitals.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Bassslapper - 28 Mar 2006 15:23 GMT A true HMO emphasizes profits over health and veils that in insisting on prevention so they can avoid having to pay out. Prevention is the best form of medicine but do not even remotely think that the HMO's are worried about the health of their subscribers. The only health they are concerned about is the bottom line. That is fine from a business perspective but when ti comes at the expense of health and treatment for patients, I think it is wrong. And the write-offs are absorbed by the providing doctor or hospital so the only way to make up for the loss of money is to increase patient volume, leading to a minimization of the time the doctor can spend with the patient.
Dan Abel - 28 Mar 2006 19:06 GMT > A true HMO emphasizes profits over health and veils that in insisting > on prevention so they can avoid having to pay out. Prevention is the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > loss of money is to increase patient volume, leading to a minimization > of the time the doctor can spend with the patient. You are talking about what I call the "fake" HMOs. They are nothing but insurance plans using private practice doctors and regular hospitals. The doctors at my HMO are on salary, and the hospitals are all run by the HMO.
Many doctors prefer working at my HMO, even though the pay is less, because they just practice medicine. They don't deal with money, and they don't supervise employees.
From their web site:
"Kaiser Permanente is the largest nonprofit health plan* in the United States, serving 8.2 million members in 9 states and the District of Columbia. We are an integrated health delivery system, which means that we provide and coordinate the entire scope of care for our members, including: € preventive care € well-baby and prenatal care € immunizations € emergency care € screening diagnostics € hospital and medical services € pharmacy services As a nonprofit health plan, we are driven by the needs of our members rather than the needs of shareholders."
I have belonged for over 30 years, and am quite happy.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Bassslapper - 28 Mar 2006 22:37 GMT Your HMO does not seem like a 3rd aprty affiliate and has more at stake with where you work then the typical "fake HMO." I cannot speak for medicine but in dentistry HMO's put such a squeeze on the pracitioner that it is hard to deliver quality care while maintaining a decent profit margin and since we are also small businesses, the maintenance of the bottom line is important to the viability of the practice. This makes the balancing act between ideal treatment delivery and business viability ethically precarious. I don't like time crunches and working extra to make the same amount of money, that is why I do not participate in HMO's and am wary of them.
Dan Abel - 28 Mar 2006 23:38 GMT > Your HMO does not seem like a 3rd aprty affiliate That's the understatement of the year! With few exceptions, the doctors are full time at the HMO and are on salary. Before a year ago, the retinal work at the facility north of me was contracted out to a private practice. A year ago, they had grown enough that they hired a full time retinal specialist, who fixed my detachment last July.
> and has more at stake > with where you work then the typical "fake HMO." What are you talking about, "work"? I am retired. Even when I worked, there were only 250,000 employees, a drop in the bucket to Kaiser. As I posted, they have 8.2 million members. They are only in 9 states, so as you can imagine, they have a large chunk of the health care market where they offer services.
> I cannot speak for > medicine but in dentistry Kaiser doesn't cover dental services, unfortunately.
> HMO's put such a squeeze on the pracitioner > that it is hard to deliver quality care while maintaining a decent [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > extra to make the same amount of money, that is why I do not > participate in HMO's and am wary of them. That's why I call them "fake" HMOs. They combine all the worst features together. They are insurance companies, but they have transferred at least some of the pooled risk down to the individual practioners. That's insane.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Bassslapper - 29 Mar 2006 01:13 GMT :"That's why I call them "fake" HMOs.They combine all the worst features together.They are insurance companies, but they have transferred at least some of the pooled risk down to the individual practioners.That's insane."
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And that is why we are facing such problems with the HMO's. It's too bad that companies don't look at the model Kaiser is using here and emulating it. It sounds like a win-win for all parties involved. The insurance company propsers, the doctor is compensated appropriately, and the patients receive optimal care.
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Mar 2006 03:49 GMT > And that is why we are facing such problems with the HMO's. It's too > bad that companies don't look at the model Kaiser is using here and > emulating it. It sounds like a win-win for all parties involved. The > insurance company propsers, the doctor is compensated appropriately, > and the patients receive optimal care. Who decides if the doctor is appropriately compensated? You, the government, or the monopoly known as Kaiser? Go talk to the Canadians, the unemployed, or the retired.
DrG
Bassslapper - 29 Mar 2006 04:28 GMT I am sure that a happy middle ground can be found regarding compensation but I can tell you that $5 for a filling ain't it. I don't hink one entity should set the pricing because it can skew it too far one way or the other. There are also programs avaialble for the unemployed, retired, and poor allowing them access to healthcare. It may not be the greatest but it is better then nothing. I don't know enough about the set up in Canada to comment.
Dan Abel - 29 Mar 2006 05:00 GMT > > And that is why we are facing such problems with the HMO's. It's too > > bad that companies don't look at the model Kaiser is using here and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Who decides if the doctor is appropriately compensated? You, the > government, or the monopoly known as Kaiser? The dentists have no say in this. The government has no say in this. Kaiser can only decide what they will offer. The doctor decides what is appropriate. If they don't like the pay, they can decide not to take the job, or if they are already working there, they can leave. Kaiser doesn't have a monopoly on health care. They hire the same kinds of doctors that every other place does. There are lots of other places for medical doctors to work.
I had my retina re-attached in July at Kaiser. It was interesting talking to the retinal specialist, who had been recently hired there. She had started at Kaiser as a non-specialist OMD. She became a retinal specialist and started up a retinal unit at a Kaiser. She then went into private practice for 16 years. She said there were pluses and minuses in working at Kaiser vs private practice.
> Go talk to the Canadians, > the unemployed, or the retired. I'm retired. Ask away. The Canadians have a government health plan. It is a true monopoly. The unemployed in this country are screwed, whatever the health plan.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Mar 2006 05:09 GMT Dan, you yourself said that Kaiser controls over 2 billion members in 9 states. He who pays the piper calls the tune. That is an effective monopoly, and anybody who wants to compete with Kaiser has to play their game. I hope that the physicians in those states are unionized.
But, alas, one day I shall too be unemployed, with only medicare and AARP as my safety net. The system is broken, but by design.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Mar 2006 05:12 GMT Sorry, you said 8.2 million members, and not 2 billion, my typo. SHEESH! That would be more than the population of china.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Mar 2006 05:15 GMT Sorry, let's start over. You yourself said that Kaiser covers 8.2 million lives in 9 states which amounts to a near monopoly. If anybody wants to compete in those states, they have to play by Kaiser's rules. Physicians, as individuals, have very little clout. He who pays the piper calls the tune.
The system is broken by design.
DrG
Dan Abel - 29 Mar 2006 17:34 GMT > Sorry, let's start over. You yourself said that Kaiser covers 8.2 > million lives in 9 states which amounts to a near monopoly. If anybody > wants to compete in those states, they have to play by Kaiser's rules. I don't see it as a monopoly at all. I don't remember where you live, but I've been living and working here in California for the last 30 years. Many patients don't like Kaiser and don't belong. There are many other choices. Every year we have open enrollment, ending on January 1, which is the effective date for new coverage. I am offered several different health plans. I don't pay attention, since I'm happy where I am, but I certainly have a choice. There are 30 million people just in California, and I don't know which other states offer Kaiser.
> Physicians, as individuals, have very little clout. He who pays the > piper calls the tune. As much as doctors are little gods in their offices, they are certainly pawns here. But it doesn't matter who the players are. Kaiser and the big insurance companies are fighting this one out. The doctors are just pawns whichever system they are under.
> The system is broken by design. We agree there. Only two industrialized countries in the world have fee for service medicine, the US and South Africa. Every other country has some form of national health coverage. Medical care is seen as a right of the citizen in those other countries. Our coverage here in the US is broken, on purpose.
 Signature Dan Abel dabel@sonic.net Petaluma, California, USA
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Mar 2006 18:35 GMT > I don't see it as a monopoly at all. I don't remember where you live, > but I've been living and working here in California for the last 30 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > where I am, but I certainly have a choice. There are 30 million people > just in California, and I don't know which other states offer Kaiser. Let's just say then "the market leader," which in turn sets the benchmarks. States are known by how much managed care has penetrated.
> As much as doctors are little gods in their offices, they are certainly > pawns here. But it doesn't matter who the players are. Kaiser and the > big insurance companies are fighting this one out. The doctors are just > pawns whichever system they are under. Some people, especially bureaucrats, love to see doctors and other intellectuals as pawns.
> We agree there. Only two industrialized countries in the world have fee > for service medicine, the US and South Africa. Every other country has > some form of national health coverage. Medical care is seen as a right > of the citizen in those other countries. Our coverage here in the US is > broken, on purpose. Nobody has a natural right to the work of another. What you are describing is nothing more than servitude.
DrG
Dan Abel - 29 Mar 2006 06:20 GMT In articl <1143600558.803619.235030@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com> "Dr. Leukoma" <drg@leukoma.com> wrote
> Bassslapper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Who decides if the doctor is appropriately compensated? You, th > government, or the monopoly known as Kaiser The dentists have no say in this. The government has no say in this.
Kaiser can only decide what they will offer. The doctor decides wha is appropriate. If they don't like the pay, they can decide not to take the job, or if they are already working there, they can leave. Kaise
doesn't have a monopoly on health care. They hire the same kinds of doctors that every other place does. There are lots of other place for medical doctors to work
I had my retina re-attached in July at Kaiser. It was interesting talking to the retinal specialist, who had been recently hired there.
She had started at Kaiser as a non-specialist OMD. She became retinal specialist and started up a retinal unit at a Kaiser. She then went into private practice for 16 years. She said there were pluses and minuses in working at Kaiser vs private practice
> Go talk to the Canadians > the unemployed, or the retired I'm retired. Ask away. The Canadians have a government health plan.
It is a true monopoly. The unemployed in this country are screwed, whatever the health plan
-- Dan Abe dabel@sonic.ne Petaluma, California, US
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