Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2006
A Clarification on the Oakley-Young Study
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otisbrown@pa.net - 31 Dec 2005 16:36 GMT Dear Scientific Friends,
This is Francis Young's remark about phoria in the bifocal study -- for your interest.
The statement about "phoria" was most casual. The majority-opinion ODs on sci.med.vision imply that
1. The whole study must be thrown out because "prevention" only works for kids with esophoria or,
2. Only kids with "esophoria" can avoid -1/2 diopters per year progression. In effect they insist that a strong plus was not the reason the the "down" rate was 0.025 diopters for the "plus" group.
This was a large scale study -- conducted for three to four years and the results are very good for the concept of prevention with the plus. I doubt that this type of study could be repeated given the expense and effort it took to do this.
Otis
++++++++++++++++
BIFOCAL CONTROL OF MYOPIA
Authors: Kenneth H. Oakley, MD. Bend, Oregon
and
Francis A. Young, Ph.D. Primate Research Center Washington State University Pullman, Washington
ABSTRACT
Forty-three Native American bifocal wearers grouped by yearly age levels from 9 to 15 with a mixed group of 6 to 8 year olds are matched on beginning age, sex, beginning refractive error and ending age with 104 Native American control subjects.
Similarly, 226 Caucasian bifocal wearers are matched on the same criteria against 382 control subjects. Although the comparisons are made on each age group, the average annual rate of progression for the bifocal Native American subjects is -0.12 and -0.10 diopters in the right and left eyes respectively against a comparable rate of progression of -0.38 and -0.36 diopters for the control subjects.
These differences are significant but not as significant as those found on the Caucasian subjects of -0.02 and -0.03 diopters right and left eyes against -0.53 and -0.52 diopters for the controls. The meaning of these differences is discussed.
< snip >
Procedures
All refractions and prescriptions were performed by the senior author. When a young child was referred for an initial refraction which indicated that the child was in or close to myopia, the author discussed with the parents the possibility of fitting a reading lens or bifocal which would provide 3/4 to 1 diopter (D) of plus lens magnification over the minus distance prescription which was usually under-corrected by 0.50 diopter. For example, if the child's refraction indicated -1.00 diopters, the prescription would be written for -0.50 D with a plus 1.50 diopter add.
If the child responded positively to this lens combination, the minus distance correction would be dropped but a reading lens of +1.00 diopter would be retained.
In the case of older children who were already myopic more than -2.00 diopters the distance correction would be cut 0.50 diopter and a plus 1.50 to 2.00 diopter add would be prescribed.
In all cases a flat top add would be prescribed and positioned so that the top of the add would reach the middle of the pupil when the eyes are in the primary position.
This location of the add would require the child to tilt his head slightly forward and to look slightly up to avoid the add at distance but would make it virtually impossible to read without using the add even if the glasses slide downward on the nose as they so frequently do in children.
[Comment: This is Francis Young's only commentary about "esophoria". OSB]
Virtually all children fitted with bifocals in this study demonstrated a near point esophoria as did most of the control children who were progressing.
If the parents did not wish to try the bifocal approach, the child was fitted with a slight under-correction for distance (0.50 diopters) and told to wear his glasses at all times.
++++++++++++++++++++
[Comment: The children were assigned randomly to a "plus" or "single-minus". The remark about "phoria" was simply casual. It has NOTHING to do with the selection or random assignment process. OSB]
Best,
Otis
Dr. Leukoma - 31 Dec 2005 17:17 GMT Finally you admit the truth only when you can no longer avoid it.
DrG
Philip D Izaac - 03 Jan 2006 05:05 GMT > Finally you admit the truth only when you can no longer avoid it. Otis does not admit to the truth, he simply does not understand what he reads. This was actually submited to back him up----it backfired on him and he still does not realize it. Poor Otis.
See below for more
> DrG <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in message news:1136047004.455227.302380@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> This is Francis Young's remark about phoria in the bifocal > study -- for your interest. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1. The whole study must be thrown out because "prevention" only > works for kids with esophoria or, Otis does not understand the "Objective facts".
OTIS LISTEN:-
> Virtually all children fitted with bifocals in this study > demonstrated a near point esophoria as did most of the control > children who were progressing. Looks to me that the prevention worked on kids with esophoria.
Data From primates and chickens used to explain the behaviour of the human eye. Data from esophoric kids used to explain the behaviour of orthophores.
Very scientific
> 2. Only kids with "esophoria" can avoid -1/2 diopters per year > progression. In effect they insist that a strong plus was > not the reason the the "down" rate was 0.025 diopters for the > "plus" group Is it becoming obvious to you now Otis? Do you still believe the above statement?
> [Comment: The children were assigned randomly to a "plus" or > "single-minus". The remark about "phoria" was simply casual. > It has NOTHING to do with the selection or random assignment > process. OSB] And you believe that a random selection produced a group comprising of virtually every kid being esophoric. How convenient. But I understand, as we all know, you dont have the sufficient background to conduct a scientific discussion on the objective facts.
You put your foot in your mouth this time Otis. I hope this will allert your followers.
Roland Izaac
Neil Brooks - 03 Jan 2006 05:31 GMT >You put your foot in your mouth this time Otis. I hope this will allert your >followers. Dear Roland-
"THIS time?"
:-) Happy New Year, though ... I think you're a full day ahead of us.
No matter....
 Signature Live simply so that others may simply live
Dr. Leukoma - 31 Dec 2005 17:17 GMT Finally you admit the truth only when you can no longer avoid it.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 31 Dec 2005 17:35 GMT Yes, DrG,
I acknowledge that the signle-minus when "down" at a rate of -1/2 diopter per year (or -2 diopters in 4 years) and that the "plus" group virtually did not go down at all.
Further, the primate eye (were there is better control) does this as a dynamic process, and again suggests (on a scientific level) that SOME people should "wise up" and consider using the PLUS-FOR-PREVENTION -- if they wish to keep their distant vision through the school years.
But that is their choice -- not mine.
Your engineering friend,
Otis
Neil Brooks - 31 Dec 2005 17:37 GMT >Your engineering friend, I may be speaking out of turn here, but I don't believe you have any friends on this forum, Uncle Otie.
If you had some real intellectual horsepower, or at least a dash of intellectual honesty, you could, but--as the old saying goes--
If only he had used his powers for niceness, instead of evil....
 Signature Live simply so that others may simply live
otisbrown@pa.net - 31 Dec 2005 17:45 GMT Dear non-friend Neil,
I always appreciate being fully informed of the second-opinion -- when I can personally plan to do something about it.
I consider such people to be my "friend" as Dr. Jacob Raphelson was.
What the hell -- you can always turn it down cold -- and "accept" stari-case myopia from the minus. Certainly can be no "skin" off my nose.
But then, that is what an "open" discussion about the proven dynamic behavior of the natural eye is all about. (Except for block-heads like you of course.)
I ofter wondered why ODs would not offer you a discussion of true-prevention. But they I realized that you set the "stage" for them to "clam up" -- and I can not blame them for doing so.
I sure as hell would not want to deal with and idiot like you.
Otis
Neil Brooks - 31 Dec 2005 17:59 GMT >Dear non-friend Neil, Hi there, y'ol douchebag :-)
>I always appreciate being fully informed of the >second-opinion -- when I can personally plan >to do something about it. > >I consider such people to be my "friend" as >Dr. Jacob Raphelson was. The dead man was your friend. Right. Got it.
>What the hell -- you can always turn it down >cold -- and "accept" stari-case myopia from >the minus. Certainly can be no "skin" off >my nose. You see, Charles. This is Otis Brown's 'threat,' but it is totally baseless and without proof. The implication here is that you are a bad parent if you don't follow his advice.
And, Otis, at your advanced age, skin off your nose can be serious. Maybe you should see a doctor. Oh, wait! That's right! You ARE a doctor....
>But then, that is what an "open" discussion >about the proven dynamic behavior of the natural [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I sure as hell would not want to deal with >and idiot like you. and yet that's exactly what you're doing, now isn't it.
I've told you before (didn't take your meds today, did you? I knew it): eye docs like me. I'm fun.
Eye docs, on the other hand, HATE you. That's why they ruined your eyes and dashed your hopes of flying commercial aircraft, relegating you to a life of mediocrity.
That's just where you and I differ, now isn't it?
 Signature Live simply so that others may simply live
Dr. Leukoma - 31 Dec 2005 17:44 GMT People are smarter than you think.
In the majority of cases, plus-for-prevention doesn't work, and in those cases where it does work, the benefits do not justify the problems with its use.
People indeed have "wised up" to you.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 01 Jan 2006 06:00 GMT Dear DrG,
Given the "Neil Brooks" effect, you do not even have to make an "argument" here. Just have the public read his posts, and say you can not put yourself "at risk" from such people -- and I will understand perfectly.
I know that some ODs put their own children in a "plus" as soon as their child's refractive states gets "down to" zero diopters.
I understand perfectly WHY they can help their own childrens (because of the Oakly-Young study) and WHY helping the public IN ANY WAY is impossible.
This is the precise reason why I would never enter into "optometry". My sister's kids were informed of these isssues --- and made their "preventive" decision accordingly. Now I understand WHY they had to do it themselves, and why you could never help them.
They had no choice but to "take responsibility" and keep their distant vision clear for life.
Because of the "Neil Brooks" effect, you can never be part of that -- and my sympathy is with you.
We have no argument.
Happy New Year!
Best,
Otis
Neil Brooks - 01 Jan 2006 06:14 GMT >Dear DrG, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >put yourself "at risk" from such people -- and >I will understand perfectly. You're exactly right, Uncle Otie. The reason that Dr. G, and all the others, refuse to prescribe plus lenses to myopic children is because I lurk somewhere in Southern California, waiting to pounce.
It's taken you nearly a decade to figure it out, but you finally caught on.
Now, since you know the *real* truth of the situation, why don't you just run along and stop posting on s.m.v. Nothing you can do here can change the situation. I'll always be here. You're dead-ended, no?
>I know that some ODs put their own children >in a "plus" as soon as their child's refractive >states gets "down to" zero diopters. I think that number still stands at one, and I'll just bet his kids are nearsighted anyway. Care to prove me wrong?
>I understand perfectly WHY they can help their >own childrens (because of the Oakly-Young study) >and WHY helping the public IN ANY WAY is >impossible. I think "children" is already plural.
I think Oakley Young was only enlightening for esophores.
I think you're an idiot for failing to acknowledge that (and for countless other reasons).
>This is the precise reason why I would never >enter into "optometry". My sister's kids were informed >of these isssues --- and made their "preventive" decision >accordingly. Now I understand WHY they had to >do it themselves, and why you could never help them. You could *try* to enter into optometry, but I'm sure you would fail.
Oh, that's right: you "cured" Keith and his sister. HALLELUJAH! Allah be praised! Uncle Otie is a miracle worker.
Can you prove it?? Nobody else can either. Huh?
>They had no choice but to "take responsibility" and keep >their distant vision clear for life. Can you prove it? Nobody else can either.
>Because of the "Neil Brooks" effect, you can never >be part of that -- and my sympathy is with you. Is this a documented effect? As far as I can tell, it's having no effect whatsoever, but it will.....
>We have no argument. Because you don't listen to what other people say. Otherwise, there have been myriad arguments ... y'ol coot.
 Signature Live simply so that others may simply live
Dr. Leukoma - 01 Jan 2006 14:47 GMT > I know that some ODs put their own children > in a "plus" as soon as their child's refractive > states gets "down to" zero diopters. And what are the results? Why the secretive behavior? Why not publish these astounding results to the benefit of the general public?
> I understand perfectly WHY they can help their > own childrens (because of the Oakly-Young study) > and WHY helping the public IN ANY WAY is > impossible. Why? Because if they were to conduct an "experiment" on their own patients, there would have to be informed consent.
> This is the precise reason why I would never > enter into "optometry". My sister's kids were informed > of these isssues --- and made their "preventive" decision > accordingly. Now I understand WHY they had to > do it themselves, and why you could never help them. And so, as an engineer, you are in a better position to help the huddled masses?
> They had no choice but to "take responsibility" and keep > their distant vision clear for life. With you as their uncle, did they have an choice in the matter?
> Because of the "Neil Brooks" effect, you can never > be part of that -- and my sympathy is with you. I should think that the "Otis Brown" effect is more pernicious.
DrG
Only Have Eyes For You - 01 Jan 2006 06:27 GMT >Yes, DrG, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Otis I continue to have a great deal of difficulty understanding your position. I have evaluated the Oakley-Young study that you repeatedly cite, but it is clear that this is NOT a randomized sample, representing the universe of myopes or potential myopes.
It is my understanding that esophoria is a very specific diagnosis--a convergence anomaly--and that this represents a very particular kind of case.
Can you please clarify for me on what basis you think it's scientifically prudent to transition from esophores to the sweeping generalization that you continually assert?
It's my understanding that you have three major points of data in your arsenal: a primate study, a chicken study, and an esophoria study.
Can you simply clarify for me whether there is anything else that you are relying on to validate your very broad assertion that the rest of humanity will react identically to primates, chickens, and esophores??
All of the more recent test data that I have seen (examples:)
http://makeashorterlink.com/?E1F43156C
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O6051256C
...seem to indicate that--without adding atropine to the mix (Horrors!), your assertions are simply not valid.
Care to respond?
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