Medical Forum / General / Vision / October 2005
Mild adult strabismus?
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Charles - 15 Sep 2005 02:14 GMT I'm very interesting in learning more about adult strabismus. My vision has been bugging me, and it always seemed like my two eyes were having trouble working together. A little surfing on the net led me to strabismus, but I'm still far from certain that that's my problem. The things that caught my attention the most were (1) mentions of people turning their head to the side to help focus, which I've done since childhood, especially when watching TV, (2) one article mentioned difficulty making prolonged eye contact with people, which I've had, and (3) difficulty reading for long periods of time.
It's hard to find info that is not either for children or related to extreme conditions (where it's a cosmetic problem). It's kind of subtle for me, and certainly not noticeable to anyone else. Whatever my problem is, it's worse now since I got a new prescription. I'm not sure if it's related, but one thing that happened with the new prescription is that my right eye (when corrected) is very sharp - better than my left, and it always used to be the other way. It seems possible that my brain is picking a dominant eye and had always been using the left before.
Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if someone could either share their experience or point me to some other information. I'm a little hesitant to go to they eye doc without a little more research. I feel kind of like a hypochondriac...
William Stacy - 15 Sep 2005 06:14 GMT Strabismus is easier to diagnose on another than on yourself. It should have been picked up on your eye exam, but if it's a very small angle of deviation, it can be missed. The 3 items you list here are usually NOT symptoms of strabismus, and certainly not of small angle strabismus.
Also, the kind of problem you're having with the new Rx is probably not related to strabismus, but more to a dominancy/adaptation issue.
I'd go back and ask the examiner if any binocular abnormalities were found. You might even ask for a careful retest of your binocularity (esp. a cover test, a stereopsis test, and maybe a fixation disparity test).
w.stacy, o.d.
> I'm very interesting in learning more about adult strabismus. My > vision has been bugging me, and it always seemed like my two eyes were [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > difficulty making prolonged eye contact with people, which I've had, > and (3) difficulty reading for long periods of time.
> It's hard to find info that is not either for children or related to > extreme conditions (where it's a cosmetic problem). It's kind of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > hesitant to go to they eye doc without a little more research. I feel > kind of like a hypochondriac... Charles - 15 Sep 2005 13:30 GMT Thanks for the reply. The thing I'm struggling with is that whatever issue I'm having is persisting through multiple prescriptions, probably about 4 in the last 6-8 years. I've especially noticed the eye contact problem for about that long. My eyes seem to have a hard time fixating and always want to jiggle around, if that makes sense. All this, could be psychological, of course, and have nothing directly to do with vision, but it sure affects my quality of life, so I'd love to fix it.
Anyway, since it's been an issue for so long, I'm disinclined to blame this particular prescription, or even this doctor. I don't know why it seems more pronounced now though.
Do you think the stuff I read on-line is giving an incorrect idea of symptoms? When I read about the turning sideways to look at stuff I thought that was kind of big. I've been watching TV with my head 45 degrees to the set since I can remember. I didn't have glasses until about 8 years ago. I said "focus" above, but it's not to make things sharp, just some binocular vision thing or something... hard to explain.
For some reason, when I started wearing glasses, I started noticing this other "jiggly eye" stuff. Again, it could be related to fatigue or depression or any number of other things, but this seemed to fit the bill based on the little I could find.
How do they test the binocular stuff? Is that with the electronic machine or just with the lenses?
> Strabismus is easier to diagnose on another than on yourself. It > should have been picked up on your eye exam, but if it's a very small [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > people, which I've had, and (3) difficulty reading for long periods > > of time.
> > It's hard to find info that is not either for children or related to > > extreme conditions (where it's a cosmetic problem). It's kind of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > hesitant to go to they eye doc without a little more research. I > > feel kind of like a hypochondriac... Dr Judy - 15 Sep 2005 15:13 GMT > Thanks for the reply. The thing I'm struggling with is that whatever > issue I'm having is persisting through multiple prescriptions, probably [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be psychological, of course, and have nothing directly to do with > vision, but it sure affects my quality of life, so I'd love to fix it. I would agree with Bill Stacy, avoiding eye contact is not likely due to strabismus. If you are clinically depressed, you may well avoid eye contact.
> Anyway, since it's been an issue for so long, I'm disinclined to blame > this particular prescription, or even this doctor. I don't know why it [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > How do they test the binocular stuff? Is that with the electronic > machine or just with the lenses? Testing for strabismus is a standard part of an eye exam, it is done by the examiner watching the eyes while covering and uncovering them with an occluder.
If one eye is clearer than the other, then return to the doctor and tell him that the new glasses are not delivering equally clear vision in both eyes, there may be a simple explanation. Also mention the head turning.
Dr Judy
>> Strabismus is easier to diagnose on another than on yourself. It >> should have been picked up on your eye exam, but if it's a very small [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> > hesitant to go to they eye doc without a little more research. I >> > feel kind of like a hypochondriac... William Stacy - 15 Sep 2005 16:12 GMT > Anyway, since it's been an issue for so long, I'm disinclined to blame > this particular prescription, or even this doctor. I don't know why it > seems more pronounced now though. You might try posting the current and next most recent Rxs. Might give a clue.
> Do you think the stuff I read on-line is giving an incorrect idea of > symptoms? When I read about the turning sideways to look at stuff I > thought that was kind of big. I've been watching TV with my head 45 > degrees to the set since I can remember. The on-line stuff about head turn is not wrong for *some* kinds of strabismus. However, most strabismics who have a head turn or head tilt do so to avoid the double vision they experience when *not* so turning or tilting their heads. If you force yourself to hold your head "straight", do you get double vision? Try turning your head in the opposite (from your usual direction) way. Do you then get double vision or are you unable to then look at the object of regard? If not, then it's not likely a strabismus.
> How do they test the binocular stuff? Is that with the electronic > machine or just with the lenses? No electronics. Pretty straightforward covering and uncovering each eye, and carefully observing eye movements. An obvious example is a person like Marty Feldman, who was exotropic. If you covered the eye that was looking at you, the other eye, the one that was looking at the wall, would swing in toward you to pick up fixation. His was a huge angle, and many strabs are, but many are so small (under 10 degrees) that you have to watch carefully for the movement. Other tests generally include polarized vectographics that test for things like supression, fixation disparity and stereopsis, all of which are abnormal in any strabismus. Unfortunately, not all docs use these procedures regularly.
w.stacy, o.d.
Charles - 16 Sep 2005 03:44 GMT > > Anyway, since it's been an issue for so long, I'm disinclined to > > blame this particular prescription, or even this doctor. I don't > > know why it seems more pronounced now though. > > You might try posting the current and next most recent Rxs. Might > give a clue. Current is:
OD PL -150x172 OS +25 -100x04
I don't know my last one, I'd have to ask. But like I said, the issue I'm struggling with now has persisted through 4-5 changes in prescription, although I never noticed anything (besides head turn) prior to having glasses. I've had at least 3 different doctors since I got glasses about 8 years ago too.
> > Do you think the stuff I read on-line is giving an incorrect idea of > > symptoms? When I read about the turning sideways to look at stuff I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > vision or are you unable to then look at the object of regard? If > not, then it's not likely a strabismus. I've certainly never considered it to be double vision; it's more like it just takes a lot more effort or concentration to maintain my vision on the screen (when looking straight on).
In thinking about the problem I've noticed this. If I look at something close up, like a period on a page, or a freckle on my hand or something, it's fairly easy to fixate on that point for as long as I want. When things get further away, like 10 feet or more, I find it difficult to fixate on any one point. It's not like it's blurry or anything; if I close one eye (either one) things are very crisp. The problem seems to me to be something to do with the eyes working together.
Don't get me wrong though, stuff isn't blurry and doesn't appear doubled. It's just an inability or difficulty to stay fixated at a point.
Maybe this is all just the long term effects of spending so much time looking at computer screens...
> > How do they test the binocular stuff? Is that with the electronic > > machine or just with the lenses? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > abnormal in any strabismus. Unfortunately, not all docs use these > procedures regularly. Thanks to Dr Judy for the reply as well. I have never been diagnosed with depression or anything like that. I'm not sure what to say about the eye contact thing. It seems related to my vision to me, since I'm not in other respects a socially awkaward person or anything. I do make eye contact, I just can't really maintain it; I glance at people during conversation rather than maintaining... FWIW
I'm not sure I remember the doc covering one eye at a time and looking at the other. Maybe. As an untrained person, it seems like a subtle error could cause trouble while being very hard to detect just by looking. Maybe not.
And as far as the clearness of vision, I'm hesitant to complain because I think I'm easily 20/20 in both eyes. For some reason my right eye seems to have come out exceptionally crisp this time around. Prior to this, my prescription was a little off on the right, and the left was noticeably better. I was just speculating at how the brain might react over time to having sharper vision in one eye than the other - even subtly.
Charles - 16 Sep 2005 13:26 GMT One thing is that I don't think I understand the basic physiology very well. How is it that the eye positions are connected? I kind of have the impression that the relative position of the two eyes has a nominal starting point and that it takes muscle energy to move it one way or the other. Like if you are "zoning out", or resting with your eyes closed, the muscles that do that will relax and you eyes will go back to a certain relative position. That relative position might be the same as is appropriate for both eyes to focus at a point at infinity, or maybe at 14 inches... is that even close to correct? If so, are most people's nominal point at infinity or someplace closer?
I'm thinking about this because it seems that when I have a lot of energy, the vision thing is not a problem. Like if I'm giving a presentation (more adrenaline), everything si fine, but if I'm tired and bored it's much worse. Kind of like I don't have the energy to pull my eyes into the right position.
I realize I may be off on a wild tangent...
William Stacy - 16 Sep 2005 14:33 GMT > One thing is that I don't think I understand the basic physiology very > well. How is it that the eye positions are connected? I kind of have > the impression that the relative position of the two eyes has a nominal > starting point and that it takes muscle energy to move it one way or > the other. This is true, and it's called the physiologic position of rest. The problem is that strabismics usually have a PPR in which the visual axes are mis-aligned to the extent that it is difficult or impossible for them to align them properly using muscle energy alone.
Like if you are "zoning out", or resting with your eyes
> closed, the muscles that do that will relax and you eyes will go back > to a certain relative position. That relative position might be the > same as is appropriate for both eyes to focus at a point at infinity, > or maybe at 14 inches... is that even close to correct? If so, are > most people's nominal point at infinity or someplace closer? I think most normals' "nominal" position is close to parallel (infinity), or slightly divergent (exo).
> I'm thinking about this because it seems that when I have a lot of > energy, the vision thing is not a problem. Like if I'm giving a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I realize I may be off on a wild tangent... Not necessarily. Most people with significant misalignment are not actually strabismics but have what is called heterophoria, either exophoria (divergence), esophoria (convergence) and/or hyperphoria or hypophoria (vertical misalignment). Phorias can be considered latent strabismus, where the person can overcome the misalignment *most* of the time, becoming frank strabismus only occasionally (intermittent strabismus). When they cannot overcome this most or all of the time, the resultant strabismus is called, in the same order, exotropia, esotropia, or hypertropia or hypotropia. Usually the vertical deviations have a horizontal component as well, so they are often called hyper-esotropia, or hypo-exotropia, or the like.
Anyway, it is very possible, even likely, that you have a measurable phoria that gives you trouble when fatigued. If so, this can be helped with prismatic correction in your glasses, and/or spherical power manipulations in the case of eso and exo deviations...
w.stacy, o.d.
Charles - 18 Sep 2005 20:06 GMT I think I'll go get my binocular related stuff checked out, just in case.
I wonder if maybe it is an issue with my eyes working together but more from the fact that my last prescription was bad for my right eye. It was noticeably bad for at least a year, and perhaps my brain adapted to that by mostly ignoring the right eye for detail stuff. Now that both eyes are good, and the right slightly better, my brain might be relearning how to integrate the info from both eyes...
I've been in this prescription for a little over a month I think. The first few weeks were really bad and now it's only somewhat weird, mostly when I'm outside and trying move quickly between near and far looking. It's enough to really take all the enjoyment out of taking a walk or something though. I can't really forget about my vision when I'm outside. It was similar when I had my old glasses, but then it was the irritating feeling of blurriness in one eye.
It would be such a joy to do things without being constantly aware of my eyesight.
> > One thing is that I don't think I understand the basic physiology > > very well. How is it that the eye positions are connected? I kind [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > w.stacy, o.d. Debbie - 19 Sep 2005 00:22 GMT I?m new to this group and have not made any posts yet. I?ve been trying to work out precisely what I wanted to ask, but the question about the ?adult strabismus? interested me.
I had two surgeries for strabismus prior to age 5, which were not completely successful. Later glasses *I think* had prismatic correction until I left my childhood ophthalmologist behind. I have always felt as if my left eye was pulling inward and for this reason did not attempt eye contact with others ? not having eye contact, of course, was psychological. The inward pulling sensation is not. In addition to this feeling, there is by now (age 49) a 1.25D difference in prescription between my two lenses not counting astigmatism, and I favor my ?good? right eye, although I do use my left eye on occasion. I seldom use both eyes at once and have no depth perception. In bright light I have to close one eye and squint with the other. My youngest son, age 23, inherited everything but the severe strabismus (he has a little), and has ? for now ? Over a 3D difference in prescription from mine, and does not use his left eye at all ? He can?t even read with it and barely passed the DMV.
I think I inadvertently cheated on my last eye exam by not focusing my eyes when checked for strabismus, as the new eye doctor told me the surgeon did a ?good job?. I think the surgeon probably did the best he could, but anyone who lives around me can tell my eyes still cross. I had to pick from high school graduation proofs the one photo in which my eye did not turn toward my nose (we weren?t allowed to wear lenses in the photos due to reflection problems), and I have no reason aside from my latest doctor?s opinion to think anything has fixed itself in the years since.
I have my own questions. My last prescription, which I got in January, is the least effective prescription I have ever had. Last week I went back to the doctor?s office, which is in a chain store, to find out what my vision scored on the Snellen chart. The doctor wasn?t in, so I talked to the person behind the desk, who knew little to nothing about eyes. This person told me I scored 20/30 +2, assuming this was my score with unaided vision, which, given the strength of my prescription, obviously is not, and then wanted to argue it with me.
I consider 20/30 +2 to be fairly good vision ? you can drive with it ? But do not understand how my vision, even with glasses, could possibly be so good. Nothing is clear and sharp at ANY distance. I, again, think I inadvertently tricked the test ? By trying to do the best I could, squinting, straining, looking at an angle, looking through my eyelashes, guessing, and using my imagination, I was able to discern the letters on the 20/30 line, although they were blurry to the point most people probably couldn?t tell them apart. Because of my extremely poor vision, over the years I have adapted my eyes to read what someone who suddenly found themselves in the same situation probably could not. I can also decipher old, bad handwriting on dark photocopies ? In other words, I have trained my eyes to recognize things that most others can?t. If the same sized letters on the Snellen 20/30 line were on the first page of a book I would give up before the end of the first paragraph. Even the 20/50 line on a chart is blurry to me with these glasses, but readable. There is NO WAY my eyes are corrected to 20/30, and if they are I don?t even want to be near the highway with all those blind people driving around.
I compared my vision with glasses to my daughter?s and one of her friends? without and found that they both read 20/15 near, -1. They told me that they also read 20/15 on other vision tests they had taken, and nothing was blurry. How can someone be judged on what they see blurry the same as someone else who sees clearly? I don?t get it. Should I lie and say I can?t tell the letters apart? Why didn?t this happen at every other exam I?ve ever had?
I chose against bifocals because even now, as I write, though the words are somewhat blurry, two prescriptions on the same lens would narrow the already small space I have from which to see ? I have peripheral vision, but it?s worthless for anything but colors and shapes, so the size of my frames represent in reality, all I can see, and I do not see anything easily or well. I don?t want this any more narrow. Instead, I will live with the near blur and use a magnifying glass for fine print. Besides, things close are no fuzzier than things far. I?m at the point now of misreading billboards.
So what do I do? My old glasses are too scratched up to wear (I run into things a lot) and no doubt way outdated. I don?t think I should go back to the same doctor. Even the optician failed by thinking my new glasses would be much lighter than my old ones, and allowed me to get frames that really aren?t right for my lenses. I don?t trust the doctor or the optician, and don?t think the glasses are going to last long ? They?ve already come apart once. I want to say something to these people, like DO YOU REALLY TEST PEOPLE THOROUGHLY?? She KNEW I was guessing at over half of what I told her during the exam. When she changed lenses, I could seldom tell which was better, but she insisted on a definite answer.
But, I don?t want the stress. Considering the cost of the glasses vs. my income, I can?t afford to get new ones all the time, especially if I am not going to see better through them.
What is my real visual acuity according to the Snellen chart, since, unaided, I can?t even read the top line? 20/unknown?
And what if this really is the best I can get? What happens when they run out of strength to add to my prescription?
I?m very perplexed. Thanks in advance for any help or advice.
Debbie
William Stacy - 19 Sep 2005 06:29 GMT > I?m new to this group and have not made any posts yet. I?ve been trying > to work out precisely what I wanted to ask, but the question about the > ?adult strabismus? interested me. You can start by trying to figure out what's causing all those question marks (?) in you post. Very distracting.
> I have my own questions. My last prescription, which I got in January, > is the least effective prescription I have ever had. Last week I went [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with unaided vision, which, given the strength of my prescription, > obviously is not, and then wanted to argue it with me. It's not obvious to me, from the information you've posted so far.
> I consider 20/30 +2 to be fairly good vision ? you can drive with it ? > But do not understand how my vision, even with glasses, could possibly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the letters on the 20/30 line, although they were blurry to the point > most people probably couldn?t tell them apart. It's funny, but you did what most of the "myopia prevention" people do all the time. In reality, Snellen acuity is one of the most variable, least important measurements we do. But it's the "standard" so we all do it. The refractive error is more important, in most cases.
Because of my extremely
> poor vision, over the years I have adapted my eyes to read what someone > who suddenly found themselves in the same situation probably could not. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and if they are I don?t even want to be near the highway with all those > blind people driving around. 20/30 is just barely legal for the DMV in Calif. So it's not all that good. But I'm guessing you're hyperopic, so sure, MOST of the time you're probably worse than 20/30. What is your Rx?
> I compared my vision with glasses to my daughter?s and one of her > friends? without and found that they both read 20/15 near, -1. They [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Should I lie and say I can?t tell the letters apart? Why didn?t this > happen at every other exam I?ve ever had? You tried too hard. And the doc let you get away with it. No big deal. What is the Rx?
> I chose against bifocals because even now, as I write, though the words > are somewhat blurry, two prescriptions on the same lens would narrow [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Besides, things close are no fuzzier than things far. I?m at the point > now of misreading billboards. Everyone's periphery is like that. Now I'm sure you're hyperopic. What is the Rx?
> So what do I do? My old glasses are too scratched up to wear (I run > into things a lot) and no doubt way outdated. I don?t think I should go [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > changed lenses, I could seldom tell which was better, but she insisted > on a definite answer. Get over it. What is your RX??????????????
> But, I don?t want the stress. Considering the cost of the glasses vs. > my income, I can?t afford to get new ones all the time, especially if I > am not going to see better through them. YOU WILL SEE BETTER THROUGH THEM. WHAT ARE THEY?
> What is my real visual acuity according to the Snellen chart, since, > unaided, I can?t even read the top line? 20/unknown? Get yourself a snellen chart and test it yourself. (God, I sound like Otis!) It's not rocket science. You'll find that under some conditions, you are 20/30 and others you might be 20/100. Happens ALL THE TIME, TO EVERYONE...
> And what if this really is the best I can get? What happens when they > run out of strength to add to my prescription? I've never run out of strength, and I've been practicing many, many years.
> I?m very perplexed. > Thanks in advance for any help or advice. Relax. Get the glasses. But maybe go somewhere else. Never get treatment from a doc in whom you've lost confidence.
w.stacy, o.d.
(what is the Rx?)
Debbie - 19 Sep 2005 22:47 GMT Dr. Stacy,
I'm sorry about the irritating question marks. I didn't see those until after my message was posted. I write in Microsoft Word because I have a problem losing my Internet connection, and apparently this caused the problem.
Of course my "score" on the Snellen chart would not be apparent to you. I didn't post my prescription. It should have been apparent to anyone working the desk at an optometrist's office, though, especially since they had my chart in their hands and could see my glasses.
OD +9.25 -0.75 0.15 -- +1.50 OS +10.50 -1.50 0.10 -- +1.50
I didn?t get the +1.50. The last doc (who I thought was good) advised me to get bifocals simply because I was 40. This one advised against it.
I'm not sure it is relevant whether it's +10 or -10. I'm only trying to figure out whether I should cough up time and money that I don't have for a visit to a different doctor or if this is the best I'm going to see.
And IF this is the best I am going to see, am I really seeing "20/30" with these glasses? I don't think I am. YOU might not think 20/30 is good, but I would gladly trade one eyeball for 20/30 in the other, even if I had to squint to achieve it.
I don't go to the doctor as regularly as I am supposed to, because my vision is never good, but this time in particular I walked out of the office wearing my new glasses disappointed (maybe because the doctor told me I was going to see so much better), but thinking that my eyes just needed to get used to the new glasses. It's been months and they haven't. It has started to really bother me not being able to see at least almost as well as I could in the past.
I don't need a Snellen chart and don't think one would make that great of a wall decoration. I can't see ANY letters on it without glasses, and with glasses -- at least these ones -- they're blurry and of course, I can't read them all.
The reason I wonder about the 20/something is because I wonder if after all the lens flipping and guessing which one was best (does there have to be an answer to that question?), she was happy with my prescription because I "read" the 20/30 line? If I hadn't, would she have gone back to the drawing board or would she have been happy with 20/40 or 20/50?
The point about my peripheral vision is I can't see anything outside my glasses frames. I really don't have any peripheral vision even though I see colors and shapes, because I can't see from the front. It's pretty useless to ask me how many fingers I can see at the side -- It's going to be a guess. The guess is either going to be right or wrong, and either way I'll still see or not see the same thing.
Sorry, I'm not a doctor, and never really worried about this before. How exactly do you test the refractive error?
I DID get the glasses.. I'm only wondering if I need to go to another doctor or if this is the best I'm going to see. I didn't expect to see perfectly. I never have and never will.
Thanks,
Debbie
Neil Brooks - 19 Sep 2005 23:34 GMT >Dr. Stacy, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >OD +9.25 -0.75 0.15 -- +1.50 >OS +10.50 -1.50 0.10 -- +1.50 Debbie-
I'm not a doctor. I'm a long-time patient. I've had three strabismus surgeries to correct an inward turn (ESOtropia) and now have an outward turn (EXOtropia) and a vertical deviation that I've had since the womb.
I'm quite farsighted (just about as badly as you) and have accommodative spasm--a tendency for my focusing muscles to cramp up all the time. When you look at something near, your eyes have to turn inward. The inward turn creates extra focusing effort. Since mine now turn OUTward, this creates even /more/ focusing effort. It's ugly.
So ... I understand a bit of what you're going through (I'm 41). My comments/questions:
1) Can you wear contact lenses?? In farsighted people, contact lenses reduce the accommodative (focusing) effort required to achieve the same correction. In nearsighted people, glasses do this.
The visual/optical benefits of contact lenses for somebody with your/my vision are /significant/.
2) What about wearing contact lenses /and/ glasses over the contact lenses. This can reduce the thickness of the eyeglasses, reducing some of the optical limitations. They could put most of the correction into the contacts, then the remaining correction--including the add for near work (the bifocal part) in the eyeglasses.
I did this for years. It's not as much of a PITA as it might sound. Also, you may be able to get extended wear contact lenses that would /help/ with how blind you/we are on awakening.
3) If you have unstable alignment, it's pretty critical that you get your best corrected visual acuity pretty well equal in both eyes. With any disparity, you'll likely exacerbate your eyes' pre-existing tendency to drift. That can be more than annoying.
4) The Rx you gave above: is that a "wet" or a "dry" refraction? In other words, is that a prescription that was taken using cycloplegic (dilating) drops? If not, it's probably pretty important that you have a cycloplegic exam (perhaps using something like Homatropine) to understand with certainty whether they have identified /all/ of your farsightedness/refractive error. At 49, you're not /likely/ to have significant accommodative amplitudes (that would hide residual refractive error), but it's possible. You likely should be wearing a full-plus cycloplegic prescription.
5) Here's how I got my prescription done: I went to a LASIK surgeon who does the custom (wavefront) LASIK. I went in while dilated with Atropine (the strongest commonly-available dilating drop, relaxing my accommodative mechanism totally). He used the wavefront aberrometer to measure my exact prescription. With this, I went back to my optometrist to have contacts prescribed. I see better with these lenses than I can ever recall having seen. Hasn't totally eliminated my other issues, of course, but it's opened up some doors for me that were closed for quite a while.
The other thing that wavefront aberrometry will do is assess how much of your refractive error is "higher order aberrations." These HOA's are not very well corrected with glasses, are slightly better corrected with contacts, but even better corrected with a wavefront laser (LASIK) surgery. If my eyes were not /severely/ dry, I would have a wavefront LASIK procedure to eliminate my astigmatism and /a portion/ of my farsightedness. This would likely leave my corrected acuity much sharper -- and make contact lens buying easier by opening more options.
6) As to glasses: though you mentioned your finances, are you dealing with high index of refraction lenses with a high abbe index? If you don't know what those are, you should google a bit and talk with your doc. They can make a big difference.
7) Are you working with a "low-vision optometrist?" This isn't just anybody. The local group that helps blind people may be able to recommend somebody. When your numbers are as high as yours or mine, some things that can be treated casually with most people (ex: vertex distance) become /absolutely critical/. A low-vision optometrist is an expert in refracting people with high prescriptions, giving them optimal acuity with correct specs or contacts. Worth your time to track one down.
I wish you all the best. I know how difficult your struggle is.
Neil
William Stacy - 20 Sep 2005 00:55 GMT >I'm sorry about the irritating question marks. I didn't see those until >after my message was posted. I write in Microsoft Word because I have a >problem losing my Internet connection, and apparently this caused the >problem. > No problem. We'll blame Bill Gates for that one.
>Of course my "score" on the Snellen chart would not be apparent to you. >I didn't post my prescription. It should have been apparent to anyone [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Wow. Even more hyperopic than I thought.
>I'm not sure it is relevant whether it's +10 or -10. I'm only trying to >figure out whether I should cough up time and money that I don't have >for a visit to a different doctor or if this is the best I'm going to >see. > It is definitely relevant, and makes you way hyperopic (far-sighted) instead of way myopic (near-sighted). And is at least partly why you can squint on down to the 20/30 range if conditions are just right.
>And IF this is the best I am going to see, am I really seeing "20/30" >with these glasses? I don't think I am. YOU might not think 20/30 is >good, but I would gladly trade one eyeball for 20/30 in the other, even >if I had to squint to achieve it. > OK now maybe I'm confused. Maybe you were referring to 20/30 "best corrected acuity". I thought you said you were 20/30 without correction. Big difference. If you're only 20/30 best corrected, then something is wrong. I'm not much of a beliver in the condition, but bilateral amblyopia comes to mind. 20/30 isn't awful, but it's not "standard" and is certainly not "perfect". I imagine your unaided acuity is on the order of 20/400 or worse. Does that sound right?
>I don't go to the doctor as regularly as I am supposed to, because my >vision is never good, but this time in particular I walked out of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >least almost as well as I could in the past. > I would definitely have another refraction, maybe by the same doc, maybe a different one if you've lost confidence in this one. I would want a definite diagnosis as to why you don't correct to 20/20 at least in one eye. I wouldn't be surprised if one of your eyes is amblyopic, but hopefully not both.
>I don't need a Snellen chart and don't think one would make that great >of a wall decoration. I can't see ANY letters on it without glasses, >and with glasses -- at least these ones -- they're blurry and of >course, I can't read them all. > I don't think they should be blurry with glasses. Sounds like the Rx is off. Can you improve it by pulling the glasses away a bit from your eyes, or cramming them closer? If not, it may well be the astigmatism correction is off. Or something else is going on.
>The reason I wonder about the 20/something is because I wonder if after >all the lens flipping and guessing which one was best (does there have [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I certainly am never happy to not achieve 20/20 at least in one eye. I also question her ability.
>The point about my peripheral vision is I can't see anything outside my >glasses frames. I really don't have any peripheral vision even though I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >either way I'll still see or not see the same thing. > Again, everyone's peripheral vision is terrible for small detail. Believe it or not, nobody in the world can read this print while gazing just over the top of the monitor. Try it. Whether you have your glasses on or not, you can't read the print while so gazing, right?
>Sorry, I'm not a doctor, and never really worried about this before. >How exactly do you test the refractive error? > > First by some objective method that doesn't require your input (either retinoscopy or an autorefractor). This give a good estimate, and is sometimes all we have to prescribe from (e.g. an infant). Then we try to refine it with the "which is better, 1 or 2" routine, which is kind of an art form and not everyone has the talent.
>I DID get the glasses.. I'm only wondering if I need to go to another >doctor or if this is the best I'm going to see. I didn't expect to see >perfectly. I never have and never will. > > I wouldn't expect you to see better than you ever did before (unless you've had nothing but screw-ups examine you your entire life), but at least as well as before, unless something pathological has happenend. Without such a diagnosis, keep going back until they get it right.
If you have one or more older Rx avail, you might post them as well, but whatever you do, report back here. Good luck and thanks for persisting.
w.stacy, o.d.
Dr. Leukoma - 05 Oct 2005 14:01 GMT Debbie, that is some prescription. I'm not surprised that 20/30+ might be the best vision you can achieve. But, then again, it may not be. You should have a long, long eye history which should be very revealing in terms of what BVA you are capable. A refraction is the process whereby the patient's refractive error is determined and the prescription for the prescriptive lenses is derived. The typical refraction determines sphere and cylinder.
In any event, the Snellen visual acuity does not tell the whole story. If everything still looks blurry, at any distance, then you are still suffering from aberrations. Those aberrations may be coming from your own eyes, or from the lenses that you are wearing. One way to determine which aberrations are inherent in your own eyes is to have something called a wavefront refraction. The instrument used is called a wavefront aberrometer. Unfortunately, the technology is still very new, and only one company is in the development phases of manufacturing eyeglasses using it.
All ophthalmic lenses have inherent aberrations, and those aberrations are always greater with higher prescriptions. For example, if your lenses are made from some ultralightweight material such as polycarbonate, large amounts of chromatic aberration will be present. Each material has an Abbe value to indicate the inherent chromatic aberration. Then, there are edge effects, such as barrel distortion and magnification. There are ways of reducing those as well.
But, in general, contact lenses result in the fewest aberrations and widest field of view. Have you ever tried contact lenses? It might be worth it.
DrG
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