Medical Forum / General / Vision / September 2005
Laser or Lasik eye surgery questions
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Twisted French Frye - 01 Sep 2005 18:36 GMT Anybody against people getting laser or lasik eye corrective surgery to correct vision? I been thinking of getting this for myself for years, but always back out for fear of complications. Anybody have complication stories? Maybe they have something new on the market? Thank you in advance for your posts
Apek - 01 Sep 2005 18:55 GMT > Anybody against people getting laser or lasik eye corrective surgery to correct vision? I been thinking of getting this for myself for years, but always back out for fear of complications. Anybody have complication stories? Maybe they have something new on the market? Thank you in advance for your posts. There is a basic fact of life which applies doubly to any cosmetic surgery - you don't get something for nothing.
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 01 Sep 2005 19:19 GMT You may want to post your question at the alt.lasik-eyes newsgroup. There is a small, but very vocal, group who had complications and they will be sure to give you all the horror stories, real and imagined.
You also may want to visit our organization's website. We try to stay objective about refractive surgery and are neither cheerleaders nor naysayers.
Remember that the most refractive surgery can provide is the convenience of a reduced need for corrective lenses. To achieve that convenience you must accept some risk. Only after a comprehensive examination from a competent doctor and a full discussion of your individual circumstances can you determine if the potential risk outweighs the potential benefit based upon your own needs, expectations, and values.
Glenn Hagele Executive Director USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
BD - 01 Sep 2005 19:59 GMT Do you have a particular view on contact lenses? Particularly the day/night ones?
I have a fairly strong prescription, and had real problems with contacts in the past. But with the new materials used, all I need to do is take a drop of lubricant each morning, and I'm good for the week.
For me, this affords me more than enough convenience, without the risks involved in the laser surgery.
I have personally known a few people who have had laser procedures, and none of them have regrets. But for me, the day/night contact lens option is more than a fair trade-off: one night a week where I have to wear glasses (while the lenses are being cleaned) and a drop of artificial tears to get things lubed up in the morning, and I'm good as gold, without the risks of complications and the pain.
drfrank21@gmail.com - 03 Sep 2005 02:39 GMT > Do you have a particular view on contact lenses? Particularly the > day/night ones? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > artificial tears to get things lubed up in the morning, and I'm good as > gold, without the risks of complications and the pain. I think you're referring to the Ciba Night and Day cl's. This lens, as well as any contact lens worn on any type of an extended wear basis, still has a risk factor. I'm just finishing up treating an individual who did in fact develop a nasty corneal ulcer with the Night and Day contact lense. So the risk of infection and complications do exist.
There is obviously risk involved with Lasik but careful pre-operative work-ups, to eliminate those who are not good candidates, is the key to increase your odds of success. It seems that many of the patients I see who had less than desirable results were those who shouldn't have had the procedure done in the first place.
frank
Dr. Leukoma - 03 Sep 2005 04:38 GMT > I think you're referring to the Ciba Night and Day cl's. This lens, as > well as any contact lens worn on any type of an extended wear basis, > still has a risk factor. I'm just finishing up treating an individual > who did in fact develop a nasty corneal ulcer with the Night and Day > contact lense. So the risk of infection and complications do exist. Was this ulcer central, paracentral, or peripheral? Was there any necrosis involved, and did you culture it? Or, was it a sterile peripheral infiltrate? Also, did the patient develop halos, diplopia, glare, or dry eye as a result? Will the patient be able to wear contact lenses or eyeglasses in the future?
> There is obviously risk involved with Lasik but careful pre-operative > work-ups, to eliminate those who are not good candidates, is the > key to increase your odds of success. It seems that many of the > patients I see who had less than desirable results were those who > shouldn't have had the procedure done in the first place. Of course, hindsight is always 20/20.
DrG
drfrank21@gmail.com - 06 Sep 2005 22:32 GMT > > I think you're referring to the Ciba Night and Day cl's. This lens, as > > well as any contact lens worn on any type of an extended wear basis, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > glare, or dry eye as a result? Will the patient be able to wear > contact lenses or eyeglasses in the future? This was an 1.3 mm ulcer(not infiltrate), mid-central, with moderate surrounding stromal edema along with an anterior chamber response. She was placed on Zymar q 1 h with tobrex ointment at night. Last seen,the ulcer was 90% resolved with a taper of her meds. I'm not sure where you're heading with your last few questions other than not realizing that corneal ulcers can indeed be serious.
frank
frank
Dr. Leukoma - 06 Sep 2005 22:44 GMT drfran...@gmail.com wrote:
> This was an 1.3 mm ulcer(not infiltrate), mid-central, with moderate > surrounding stromal edema along with an anterior chamber response. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with your last few questions other than not realizing that > corneal ulcers can indeed be serious. It's great that your patient is getting better with the meds. Most ulcerative keratitis patients do. Also, most of them get better without sequellae. Although ulcers can occur with continuous wear lenses, the risks of that occurring are 1/500 per year with hydrogels, and about 1/3000 per year with silicone-hydrogels. About 13% of those will have visual sequellae. I think that if you crank the numbers, you will conclude that the visual morbidity of sleeping in contact lenses is less risky than that of having LASIK.
That's where I was going.
DrG
drfrank21@gmail.com - 07 Sep 2005 01:01 GMT > drfran...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > DrG An interesting footnote to this though was that this patient did not come in right away when her symptoms first came up. The provider who fit her with these cl's, according to this patient, supposedly told her that these cl's were 100% safe. Obviously I take that with a grain of salt but just wonder that she was still lulled into a fales sense of security regarding overnight usage.
It's always been my contention that the majority of those patients who have had complications with lasik were those who were not good candidates in the first place(large pupils, thin corneas, etc). Complication rates for lasik seem to be all over the place depending upon the studies. I think Glenn would have a good feel for the actual numbers.
frank
Dr. Leukoma - 07 Sep 2005 02:28 GMT > An interesting footnote to this though was that this patient > did not come in right away when her symptoms first came up. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that she was still lulled into a fales sense of security > regarding overnight usage. I hate that.
> It's always been my contention that the majority of those patients > who have had complications with lasik were those who were not > good candidates in the first place(large pupils, thin corneas, etc). > Complication rates for lasik seem to be all over the place > depending upon the studies. I think Glenn would have a good > feel for the actual numbers. In retrospect, many of them no doubt were. But, why weren't they screened out?
Glenn may have a feel for the numbers, but I would prefer not to have to rely upon anybody's "FEEL." I'm not even sure about his methodology. I would like to see real, hard, statistically robust numbers like those we have for contact lens complications, and see them published in a journal like the Lancet. Unfortunately, that will never happen.
DrG
drfrank21@gmail.com - 06 Sep 2005 22:46 GMT > > I think you're referring to the Ciba Night and Day cl's. This lens, as > > well as any contact lens worn on any type of an extended wear basis, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > glare, or dry eye as a result? Will the patient be able to wear > contact lenses or eyeglasses in the future? This was an 1.3 mm ulcer(not infiltrate), mid-central, with moderate surrounding stromal edema along with an anterior chamber response. She was placed on Zymar q 1 h with tobrex ointment at night. Last seen,the ulcer was 90% resolved with a taper of her meds. I'm not sure where you're heading with your last few questions other than not realizing that corneal ulcers can indeed be serious.
frank
BD - 06 Sep 2005 17:35 GMT I'm curious - was there something about this person's 'routine' which made them more susceptible to the problem? Or in other words, can these ulcers occur in anyone equally with no regard to their behavior or lens cleaning/disposal schedule?
LarryDoc - 07 Sep 2005 03:56 GMT > I'm curious - was there something about this person's 'routine' which > made them more susceptible to the problem? Or in other words, can these > ulcers occur in anyone equally with no regard to their behavior or lens > cleaning/disposal schedule? To increase the likelihood of ulcer, keep the lens in when it hurts. That is probably the best way to get the process going.
Better still, sleep with it on and feeling uncomfortable. You need to have a break in the cornea epithelium and a bacteria to invade that space and grow there. Not having adequate oxygen flow, like older non-silicone hydrogel lenses will also help. To get the break in the epithelium, allow the lens to stick onto the cornea and then try to remove it, or at least rub your eyes. A particle of debris, like sand, a piece of hard, dry dandruff or even an eyelash stuck under the lens will do it. A torn lens or dirty, deposited lens will do it, too, so don't be to meticulous about cleaning it. Now you need to add some bacteria. That can come along with the eyelash or debris, or you could put a dirty finger in your eye and rub it. Perhaps have someone cough or sneeze directly in your face. You could also introduce the bacteria by not properly disinfecting the lens between uses---even better is to store the undisinfected lens in an unclean storage case.
OK, now you have the recipe for a cornea ulcer. Remember, though, you'll need to leave the lens on your eye have it be bothersome and ultimately painful if you want the bacteria to have a chance to do some damage. Leave that lens in and don't seek medical attention for at least a day or so.
That's the recipe for a cornea ulcer. I'll add that there are some people who do indeed do everything just right and nevertheless get an infection. This probably has to do with a problem in the tear chemistry not providing normal antibacterial action or an otherwise compromised immune system. But again, prompt treatment is important.
--LB, O.D.
BD - 07 Sep 2005 16:35 GMT Ah, good - in other words, throw common sense out the window. ;)
Dr. Leukoma - 07 Sep 2005 16:03 GMT What LarryDoc described can be filed under the heading of "self-abuse," or "lack of common sense."
Unfortunately, I don't think I could predict if or when a patient will have an "incident." What I DO know is that the integrity of the epithelium must typically be compromised in some way before a bacterial ulcer can develop. We also know that compromised epithelium is caused by low oxygen permeability. The new standard for oxgyen permeability for overnight wear is now proposed to be a minimum DK/t of 125. This is in the range of "most" silicone-hydrogel lenses.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 03 Sep 2005 04:34 GMT > Do you have a particular view on contact lenses? Particularly the > day/night ones? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > artificial tears to get things lubed up in the morning, and I'm good as > gold, without the risks of complications and the pain. You are quite correct in concluding that sleeping in silicone-hydrogel contact lenses presents less probability of long-term visual morbidity than any type of refractive surgery.
DrG
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