Medical Forum / General / Vision / July 2005
K values and PRK/Lasik?
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Darrell Criswell - 24 Jul 2005 01:17 GMT I had a preliminary evaluation for PRK or Lasik. I have about a -5.0 diopter correction. After corneal topography I was told I have a relatively flat cornea, my K value was about 42 and to do PRK they would have to remove about 5 so I would end up with a K value of 37 (I was told the lowest they would take the K value to was 36). They said the corneal surgeons might not think I was a good candidate for refractive surgery. They said the low K value might not give good results because of the optics of visual system. I haven't talked to the surgeon yet so I don't know what he will say.
Can anyone tell me what problems the low K value has for PRK and why low K values could give poor results for PRK or LASIK?
I have read if you have LASIK the low K value can cause problems with the creation of the flap.
Any explanations or advice would be appreciatated.
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Jul 2005 04:30 GMT My advice is don't do it unless you want mud cracks all over your cornea, and extreme difficulty seeing at night to boot. Just turn a deaf ear against the inevitable siren's song and get a pair of comfortable contact lenses instead.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Jul 2005 05:03 GMT Dear Darrell, You are receiving excellent advice.
Do not "do" Lasik.
You can probably find an ophthalmologist who will do this for you -- but I believe that you will hate the results -- and that is very bad indeed.
I would get a -5 diopter contact and leave it at that.
When Lasik is good -- it is very good.
But for the few who have "bad outcomes" the situation is bad indeed.
A word of caution.
Best,
Otis
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 24 Jul 2005 19:18 GMT The K value tells the curvature of the cornea. A high K value indicates a more prolate cornea (shaped like the point of a football) whereas a low K value indicates a more oblate cornea (shaped like the top of a hamburger bun).
Birds and animals that are predators tend to have forward pointing eyes with more prolate corneas. A prolate cornea provides excellent central forward vision. A good example is an eagle. An eagle has very prolate coronas with a very dense retina that allows him to see very, very clearly at a great distance. This is important if you are trying to grasp a mouse in a field when you are flying 40 miles per hour.
A frog, on the other hand, is more prey than predator. His eyes are set back on his head and are less forward looking than an eagle. His corneas are very flat when compared to the eagle. The frog's flap oblate cornea gives him good peripheral vision. This way the frog can see things coming at him from above and behind.
Human corneas are more like the eagle than the frog. They are prolate and pointed forward. We have good central forward vision and not so very good peripheral vision. This serves us well as predators and occasional prey.
Refractive surgery for myopia (nearsighted, shortsighted) vision effects the change by flattening the central portion of the cornea, thus making the cornea more oblate. If this flattening is not severe and there is enough of a prolate shape after surgery, we won't turn into frogs. Well, frog-type vision, anyway.
If you want to read all the technical details on this, go to http://www.pubmed.com and search on "prolate", "excimer", and "Holladay" (yes the spelling is correct).
You surgeon is being wisely cautious about making your already somewhat flat corneas too flat. If your cornea becomes too flat, your central forward vision will probably decrease in quality. Sure, you will be able to see a bit more clearly in the periphery, but unless you are a frog or are commonly prey, this is not a good thing.
I recommend that you visit a doctor who uses the Wave Light Allegretto excimer laser (http://www.allegrettowave.com). This laser has an ablation pattern that is designed to maintain a more prolate cornea and may (emphasis on "may") be able to provide the correction you need and not cause a loss in central forward vision.
Also, congratulations on selecting a doctor who is knowledgeable on these issues and is advising you correctly. There have been too many patients who ended up with poor vision quality because of a cornea too flat after refractive surgery. Additionally, although the recovery time is longer with PRK than LASIK, studies have shown PRK has a better outcome long-term.
Glenn Hagele Executive Director USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
Dr. Leukoma - 25 Jul 2005 00:23 GMT > The K value tells the curvature of the cornea. A high K value > indicates a more prolate cornea (shaped like the point of a football) [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > I am not a doctor. There is some virtue in brevity, or so I thought.
DrG
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 25 Jul 2005 18:18 GMT LOL
Well, you had given the short answer, but I find that some people won't settle for the clear, concise, and quick advice of a knowledgeable doctor. When you give them all the details, they may understand that advice of a professional is worth a thousand words.
And I'm sure you know me well enough that when you ask me what time it is, I'll explain why time was invented.
Glenn Hagele Executive Director USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
Pauli Soininen - 26 Jul 2005 12:51 GMT Yes, now it's time for the explanation. :)
How exactly is the central forward vision better in prolate (vs. oblate) - is it the central image sharper or is it a change in perspective perhaps? Can it be said that it is a choice between sharp central vision (prolate) vs. sharp peripheral vision (oblate)? (Obviously neither do have real /problem/ with sharpness both centrally or peripherally.)
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 26 Jul 2005 23:43 GMT The optic part of the answer is that the prolate cornea will focus more light energy at the fovea. The density of the receptor cells in a human makes the best possible vision with absolutely no aberrations at about 20/6, however due to aberrations the most that can be achieved is about 20/8, and that is very rare.
Glenn Hagele Executive Director USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
William Stacy - 27 Jul 2005 01:57 GMT >The optic part of the answer is that the prolate cornea will focus >more light energy at the fovea. I don't think that it's the quantity of light energy that makes the difference, it's more the quality of the image, which is indeed affected by the optical quality (presence or absence of refractive error defocus and/or aberrations) and pupil size.
> The density of the receptor cells in a >human makes the best possible vision with absolutely no aberrations at >about 20/6, however due to aberrations the most that can be achieved >is about 20/8, and that is very rare. > In healthy humans, 20/10 is pretty common, so I'd guess there are quite a few 20/8s out there, it's just that the standard charts don't generally get that fine, so they *rarely* get recorded.
w.stacy, o.d.
Dr. Leukoma - 27 Jul 2005 03:02 GMT Have you checked your room dimensions?
DrG
William Stacy - 27 Jul 2005 06:25 GMT Not enough info to know to whom or what you are posting. Please snip at least a little from the post you're addressing...
w.stacy, o.d.
> Have you checked your room dimensions? > > DrG Pauli Soininen - 27 Jul 2005 09:10 GMT > I don't think that it's the quantity of light energy that makes the > difference, it's more the quality of the image, which is indeed > affected by the optical quality (presence or absence of refractive > error defocus and/or aberrations) and pupil size. Well, it's a bit confusing. I don't mean to be rude, but isn't it trivial that refractive error and aberrations will reduce the image quality.
I didn't even mention the quantity of light -possibility, because I didn't believe it would have essential effect, except possibly in dark (but only if there is near to zero spherical aberration). I would guess that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever in daylight or possibly even in room light if the central image is brighter since the eye senses brightness logarithmically. And, even a slight aberration would probably far exceed the benefit of brighter central image (= the case of prolate, apparently).
If it is indeed central or peripheral brightness that differs in prolate/oblate, I would imagine that it doesn't have nearly any significance in practice, except if you're the lucky 1% of patients or so, prolate might be good when there is nearly zero aberration present.
I don't know if prolate has other significant benefit like better contact lens compatibility or better tear film properties.
Please comment if you have any more information about the subject.
Dr. Leukoma - 27 Jul 2005 12:57 GMT > The optic part of the answer is that the prolate cornea will focus > more light energy at the fovea. The density of the receptor cells in a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I am not a doctor. Glenn is correct. The oblate cornea results in increased spherical aberration, which results in an annulus of defocus.
DrG
William Stacy - 27 Jul 2005 16:56 GMT To clarify (I hope), Glenn said (below) that the "prolate cornea will focus more light energy", and that is what I was objecting to. Maybe he meant "light energy with greater precision" or something like that. I don't think the amount of spherical aberration due to oblateness has been adequately studied, but my gut feeling is that it's trivial except in large pupil diameters with abnormal (as in LASIK induced) oblateness. I think this because of the large numbers of post-LASIK people with very oblate corneas who have no symtpoms of blur as would be expected with significant amounts of manuifest spherical aberration. Another reason for this is that the crystalline lens naturally offsets at least part of this problem.
w.stacy, o.d.
> > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Dr. Leukoma - 27 Jul 2005 18:30 GMT Many studies have been written about this. Oblateness increase spherical aberration, prolateness decreases it. The pupil can block the light scatter, but there will still be fewer photons falling on the foveal receptors.
DrG
William Stacy - 27 Jul 2005 21:44 GMT Now this post I'm pretty sure is directed to one of my posts. Still hard to tell since you obstinately refuse to leave a least a shred of the post you're referring to in your post for reference. C'mon it's not hard, and is proper etiquette for news group posting.
OK great, and I confess to not having read much about it, other than some unscientific hype from LASIK people, but where are the numbers??? Too much prolateness is bad too, you know. We call that keratoconus.
w.stacy, o.d.
>Many studies have been written about this. Oblateness increase >spherical aberration, prolateness decreases it. The pupil can block [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dr. Leukoma - 27 Jul 2005 23:29 GMT Bill,
I am using the Google format. If you would look at this thread as a tree, you would see that I was replying to your post. I simply hit the "reply" to your post, a window appears, and I dutifully type away. So, don't blame it on me, blame it on Google.
DrG
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 00:21 GMT OK I guess I'm old-fashioned and like to view posts in chronological order rather than by "thread". Sorry about that.
I also have my browser set so that when I hit "reply" it opens a window that includes the text from the message I'm responding to. I then clip out most of it, leaving a remnant so that those of us old schoolers don't have to guess (or click that pesky little threaded discussion button) at who's talking about what to whom...
Anyway, I've been poking around on this prolate/oblate stuff and can't find much solid science/math on it. Everyone seems to talk in generalities. I've never felt that spherical aberration was much of a problem, due to the lenticular "reverse" spherical aberration tends to cancel it pretty much out. I guess with LASIK we are seeing an increase in the problem with very flat corneas, but it seems quite variable and unpredictable even among fairly high myopes.
w.stacy, o.d.
>Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pauli Soininen - 28 Jul 2005 01:38 GMT > I've never felt that spherical aberration was much of a > problem, due to the lenticular "reverse" spherical aberration > tends to cancel it pretty much out. Yes, I've encountered mentions about this lenticular reverse feature. The question here is, can the reverse spherical aberration of crystalline lens change by itself after surgery (to match the new curvature of cornea)?
Well that might be a difficult question to answer. But you said you feel spherical aberration is not much of a problem. But isn't that exactly what DrG is mainly fixing with his RGP lenses? I would guess that spherical aberration is the biggest and most common problem of refractive surgery.
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 01:52 GMT >Yes, I've encountered mentions about this lenticular reverse feature. The >question here is, can the reverse spherical aberration of crystalline lens >change by itself after surgery (to match the new curvature of cornea)? > Not without lens replacement surgery, and even then you have VERY limited choices in that department (the only one I know of that even attempts this is the Tecnis IOL which I happen to have in my eyes, and this one is only corrected for the average cornea; you can't specify the degree of prolativity [a new word]).
>Well that might be a difficult question to answer. But you said you feel >spherical aberration is not much of a problem. But isn't that exactly what >DrG is mainly fixing with his RGP lenses? I would guess that spherical >aberration is the biggest and most common problem of refractive surgery. > > I don't think so. He is correcting all kinds of aberrations, mostly irregular astigmatism and the like, but not that much spherical aberration, unless he's fitting a lot steeper lens on flat corneas than I think he is...
w.stacy, o.d.
The Real Bev - 28 Jul 2005 02:10 GMT > OK I guess I'm old-fashioned and like to view posts in chronological > order rather than by "thread". Sorry about that. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > don't have to guess (or click that pesky little threaded discussion > button) at who's talking about what to whom... By doing such things we are opening ourselves up to charges of elitism and perhaps even thoughtcrime. Insisting that "lose" be spelled properly is just one more symptom of a superiority complex. We're definitely going to hell when they cut off our heads.
In another post I explained what he should do, but I bet he won't. Real shame, because he writes stuff worth reading -- if you know what it's about.
 Signature Cheers, Bev 66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it, which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 13:26 GMT > > OK I guess I'm old-fashioned and like to view posts in chronological > > order rather than by "thread". Sorry about that. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Cheers, > Bev I usually do what was suggested by this poster except when I am either (1) too lazy, or (2) I consider that it is obvious to whom or to what I am responding, or (3) the response has relatively little import. The post in question was a one-liner which met all three criteria, IMO.
DrG
The Real Bev - 30 Jul 2005 06:32 GMT > I usually do what was suggested by this poster except when I am either > (1) too lazy, or (2) I consider that it is obvious to whom or to what I > am responding, or (3) the response has relatively little import. The > post in question was a one-liner which met all three criteria, IMO. OK, as long as you're sure!
 Signature Cheers, Bev ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The early bird gets the worm, the second mouse gets the cheese.
Quick - 28 Jul 2005 01:29 GMT > Bill, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > DrG We hope you don't apply like reasoning in your practice.. :) A craftsman never blames his tools.
Not everyone uses Google. Not everyone views content the same way and not everyone reads entire threads in one sitting. A little context above your reply helps a lot.
-Quick
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 01:35 GMT I use Google. I don't know what you use, and moreover, I don't care. Figure it out.
DrG
The Real Bev - 28 Jul 2005 02:01 GMT > I use Google. I don't know what you use, and moreover, I don't care. > Figure it out. When looking at an individual message, hit REPLY and PREVIEW and EDIT MESSAGE. This will include the message to which you're replying so that someone other than yourself will know what you're writing about. If you don't care whether or not anyone can understand your message, one might wonder why you bother to write.
Honest, if you graduated med/opto school YOU ought to be able to figure it out. It took me about 3 minutes, but I only have a BS.
 Signature Cheers, Bev 66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666 Vampireware; n, a project capable of sucking the lifeblood out of anyone unfortunate enough to be assigned to it, which never actually sees the light of day, but nonetheless refuses to die. -- Trygve Lode
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 13:07 GMT > > I use Google. I don't know what you use, and moreover, I don't care. > > Figure it out. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Honest, if you graduated med/opto school YOU ought to be able to figure it > out. It took me about 3 minutes, but I only have a BS. Enough with the gratuitous insults, OK? One is enough. This topic should be about something other than what newsreader somebody uses. Honestly, even if you were blind you should be able to figure out if somebody was talking to you in a group conversation from the context. Talk about BS....
DrG
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 28 Jul 2005 00:27 GMT J Refract Surg. 2004 Sep-Oct;20(5):S581-5. Related Articles, Links
Corneal asphericity and retinal image quality: a case study and simulations.
Somani S, Tuan KA, Chernyak D.
VISX Incorporated, Santa Clara, CA 95051, USA. seemas@visx.com
PURPOSE: The optical quality of retinal images is dependent on the refracting elements of the eye including the nominally aspheric cornea and crystalline lens. This paper presents a retrospective theoretical analysis of the impact of corneal asphericity on the quality of retinal images. Clinical data are from the VISX Incorporated CustomVue IDE. METHOD: Topography, contrast sensitivity, and visual acuity data were collected from 278 myopic eyes before and after wavefront-guided laser surgery. The measured corneal surface of each eye was fitted to a conic, and a Q-value was computed for a 5.5-mm pupil. A model eye was used to simulate various amounts of optical asphericity. RESULTS: Preoperatively, most corneas exhibited negative conic shape constants. Postoperatively, corneas were about equally divided between positive and negative conics. There was no statistically significant correlation between the shape of the cornea and the subjects' perceptions of image quality including contrast sensitivity and visual acuity. Simulations showed that the corneal Q-value can vary from more to less prolate depending upon the shape of the internal surface. CONCLUSION: Following wavefront-guided laser in situ keratomileusis (LASIK), contrast sensitivity is usually good and is not dependent upon the corneal conic shape. Better visual outcomes are more likely with a customized shape than a standard best conic shape.
PMID: 15523979 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Arch Soc Esp Oftalmol. 2004 Aug;79(8):385-92. Related Articles, Links
[Corneal asphericity in a young adult population. Clinical implications]
[Article in Spanish]
Yebra-Pimentel E, Gonzalez-Jeijome JM, Cervino A, Giraldez MJ, Gonzalez-Perez J, Parafita MA.
Universidad de Santiago de Compostela, A Coruna, Espana.
PURPOSE: To determine the relevance of the different ocular optical components in the refractive state of young adults, paying special attention to the corneal topography represented by the asphericity value. SUBJECTS AND METHODS: Corneal topographies and ultrasonic biometries were obtained from 109 university students with different refractive errors (spherical equivalent range: +3.25 D to -11.00 D). A regression study was performed in order to establish the relationships between corneal asphericity and refractive error, as well as other ocular optical components related to the emmetropization mechanism of the eye. RESULTS: The mean asphericity values were -0.23 (SD 0.08, range: -0.42 to -0.03). All the values correspond to the mathematical description of the prolate ellipse, most commonly accepted for the normal human cornea. The statistical correlation between asphericity and equivalent refractive error was not significant, but a significant correlation was found for the asphericity with respect to the radius of curvature, vitreous chamber depth and axial length. CONCLUSIONS: 1) The asphericity values support the generalised morphology of the prolate cornea as the standard. The influence of this configuration on the contact lens fit, refractive surgery or the visual performance of the eye are discussed. 2) Results suggest that, although a relationship between axial length and corneal topography actually exists, it is not likely that the latter has implications for the emmetropization mechanisms which determine the refractive state of the adult eye.
PMID: 15306965 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J Fr Ophtalmol. 2002 Jan;25(1):81-90. Related Articles, Links
[A review of mathematical descriptors of corneal asphericity]
[Article in French]
Gatinel D, Haouat M, Hoang-Xuan T.
Service d'Ophthalmologie, Fondation Ophtalmologique A. de Rothschild, Hopital Bichat Claude-Bernard, Universite Paris VII.
PURPOSE: Corneal asphericity may be modeled on a conic section which can be described by the apical radius of curvature in the meridian studied and by a measure of the degree of asphericity. MATERIAL AND METHODS: Through an extensive review of the literature, we expose the principles, the population variations and report the application of such corneal modeling. RESULTS: The aspheric anterior corneal surface can be described by a conic section, defined by its radius of curvature and by a parameter measuring asphericity. We analyse the various parameters used in the literature to determine their usefulness. Conic sections, obtained by cutting a cone by a plane, include ellipses, hyperbolas and parabolas. Two useful parameters are the apical radius of the ellipse and its eccentricity defined in Cartesian terms by a second order equation where the apical radius is R and the eccentricity is e: The apical radius is that of the circle tangent to the apex of the conic section and e describes the variation of this curve with distance from the corneal apex. Baker introduced the form factor p making the equation: with It is easier to understand the effect of alteration of p than of e on corneal curvature: There is a relation between the horizontal, a, and the vertical, b, hemi-axes and R The advantage of this notation is that e(2) can be greater than 1 When p=0 the conic section is a parabola, when p<0 it is a hyperbola. Kiely et al. studied corneal asphericity by photokeratoscopy and introduced the parameter Q, where Q=p-1. Q, the asphericity factor, is used by the Eyesis and Orbscan systems; when Q=0 the cornea is spherical. Thus different parameters describe variations in corneal curvature along any meridian. Average anterior corneal asphericity using various keratometric systems is p=0.8, making the corneal section a prolate ellipse. However there is great individual variation, 20% of normals exhibiting oblate (p>1), paraboloid (p=0) or hyperbolic (p<0) corneas. all becoming more spherical with age. Little connection between asphericity and ametropia is reported, except for a tendency to flattening in myopia and towards oblateness in progressive myopia. Direct measurement of denuded cadaver corneas gave a prolate elliptical profile although calculation after deduction of epithelial thickness measured by ultrasonic biomicroscopy suggested p=-0.22, a hyperbolic profile. The few reports on the posterior surface suggest it to be hyperbolic or prolate. Increasing distance from the corneal apex worsens the comparison to a conic section as flattening increases. Precision can be improved by adding polynomial coefficients above the second degree to the equation of the section: The non-toric 3D corneal surface can be described by the following equation for the revolution of a conic section about the optic axis: x(2)+y(2)+pz(2)-2rz=0 where z is the axis of revolution. Since the mean value of p is 0.8 this corresponds to a sphere stretched along one axis, as is a rugby ball. Each meridian has the same radius of curvature and the value of p is constant. For a toric cornea the radius and value of p must be defined for two meridia at right angles. This corresponds to an elongation on an axis different from that of revolution. Similarly a toric ellipsoid is generated by rotation of an arc around an axis at right angles to its elongation. Because of its asphericity, representation of the corneal surface depends on the direction in which its curvature is measured: In the ellipsoidal model this depends on the principal meridians, the tangential, in the plane of the axis of symmetry and the saggittal, perpendicular to this. These may define two radii of curvature, the saggital (axial) and the tangential. Most algorithms assume these properties of ellipsoids. Asphericity is translated into variations in radius of curvature from apex to periphery, increasing for a flat periphery, decreasing for a steep one. Associated to toricity, it gives rise to the common butterfly pattern. Spherical aberration is minimal through a small pupil but becomes significant the larger the aperture, with deterioration of image quality. Raytracing allows analysis of the effects of non-axial rays. The mean value of Q, at -0.26 thanks to the naturally prolate asphericity of the cornea reduces spherical aberration by half. The relaxed form of the crystalline lens further reduces it by inducing the opposite spherical aberation to that of the cornea. This is important in accommodation and presbyopia. The use of an aspheric corneal surface in the schematic eye allows calculation of the ideal asphericity, which corresponds quite well with clinical findings. Radial keratotomy reverses the natural asphericity of the cornea. Photorefractive keratotomy (PRK) also changes asphericity, Q increasing to an oblate value. These changes might increase spherical aberration, explaining some postoperative deficiencies. Current excimer laser protocols ignore asphericity, relying on paraxial algorithms alone. New strategies to control asphericity in order to diminish spherical aberration may offer solutions. The original conic section models were made to improve the geometry of contact lenses. Understanding of asphericity is important in adaptation after refractive surgery. Modification of spherical aberration by contact lenses and corneal warpage induced by rigid lenses have also been studied. CONCLUSION: The approximation of the corneal surface by a conic section allows understanding of corneal asphericity and offers a quantitative description. This allows a more precise description of the corneal surface and of the genesis of certain optical aberrations of the eye.
Publication Types: Review Review, Tutorial
PMID: 11965125 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Glenn Hagele Executive Director USAEyes.org
"Consider and Choose With Confidence"
Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org
http://www.USAEyes.org http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org
I am not a doctor.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 01:31 GMT Thanks for making that perfectly clear, Glenn (sarcasm in full mode).
Where on earth did you dig up those studies?
DrG
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 01:59 GMT >(about 2 interesting studies). I think both those studies are in agreement with my view that spherical aberration is not a big deal except in unusual circumstances, having little effect on ultimate acuity. Of interest is that by far most human corneas are somewhat prolate. The only oblate ones seem to be very flat corneas that have been heavily lasered.
Maybe we should drop the terms from our vocabulary.
You first.
w.stacy, o.d.
> > > Pauli Soininen - 28 Jul 2005 02:19 GMT > I think both those studies are in agreement with my view that > spherical aberration is not a big deal except in unusual > circumstances, having little effect on ultimate acuity. Ok. Let's go back to the very basics of what's happening in a typical patient's eye. Let's say the patient sees an even halo/starburst formation around lamps. There may be irregular astigmatism etc. involved, but isn't it commonly mostly spherical aberration? The radius of the halo changes precisely with the size of the pupil - doesn't that simply indicate that when the pupil expands, the transition zone is gradually revealing areas closer to the refractive power of the old, bad (but consistent) refraction. So. This is the typical problem and this is spherical aberration. Correct?
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 13:00 GMT > > I think both those studies are in agreement with my view that > > spherical aberration is not a big deal except in unusual [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > closer to the refractive power of the old, bad (but consistent) refraction. > So. This is the typical problem and this is spherical aberration. Correct? I believe that you have described the effects of spherical aberration quite well. The term is used to describe the phenomenon of optical lenses whereby paraxial rays are focused more anteriorly than rays closer to the center. Obviously, an aperture (pupil) can modify the effects of this kind of aberration quite a bit.
DrG
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 14:55 GMT I don't think so. It's far more probable that the halo/starburst is due to a combination of issues other than spherical aberration. I agree with going to the basics. What is spherical aberration? It is aberration that is due to a spherical optical surface. Is anyone claiming that any human cornea is spherical, whether or not it has had LASIK? No. The pre-Lasik cornea is more hyperbolic than anything else. Lasik might make the hyperbolic shape somewhat more spherical, but any spherical aberration thereby induced is very slight compared to the effects you mention in the last part below. What you are describing is called irregular optics (often, for simplicity described as irregular astigmatism), but it can include all sorts of distortions/variations from the ideal optical shape, including islands, plateaus, annuli, waves, ridges, bumps, potholes, you name it.
w.stacy, o.d.
> Ok. Let's go back to the very basics of what's happening in a typical > patient's eye. Let's say the patient sees an even halo/starburst formation [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > closer to the refractive power of the old, bad (but consistent) refraction. > So. This is the typical problem and this is spherical aberration. Correct? Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 15:41 GMT > I don't think so. It's far more probable that the halo/starburst is due > to a combination of issues other than spherical aberration. I agree [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > closer to the refractive power of the old, bad (but consistent) refraction. > > So. This is the typical problem and this is spherical aberration. Correct? I honestly am quite surprised that there could be much of a debate about this, since study after study of both myopic and hyperopic LASIK patients confirms that spherical aberration increases, sometimes by as much as a couple of hundred percent. Spherical aberration is one of the most significant higher order aberrations in even virgin eyes.
DrG
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 17:04 GMT >study after study of both myopic and hyperopic LASIK >patients confirms that spherical aberration increases, sometimes by as >much as a couple of hundred percent. Spherical aberration is one of >the most significant higher order aberrations in even virgin eyes. > > Please point me to one or two of these studies that quantifies the spherical aberration in a meaningful way (I do not consider topographical color prints to be such a meaningful quantification). I would hope that someone has carefully plotted spherical aberration against pupil size, and at the same time similarly quantified all the other sources of blur against the same pupil sizes.
w.stacy, o.d.
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 19:22 GMT In fact, I'll give you the link to a table such information showing the first five orders of Zernicke aberrations as a function of three different pupil sizes. The data is from "normal" subjects: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/Zernike%20norms.xls (Data tables for presentation by Salmon & van de Pol at the American Academy of Optometry annual meeting, December 9, 2004, Tampa, Florida.)
Please note that spherical aberration is prominent and increases with increasing pupil size.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 28 Jul 2005 19:28 GMT > In fact, I'll give you the link to a table such information showing the > first five orders of Zernicke aberrations as a function of three > different pupil sizes. Sorry, that's five different pupil diameters.
Also, I did a small study on post-LASIK patients in which I actually enlarged their optical zones with contact lenses, and then plotted the decrease in spherical aberration as a function of increasing optical zone area as measured by topography. As you would expect, the spherical ab decreased as the optical zone increased in a highly linear fashion.
DrG
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 23:17 GMT OK I'm a bit dizzy from looking at those numbers, but from what I can make out, spherical aberration seems to be lower in magnitude than both coma and trefoil, and in pupils below 6 mm all 5 types seem to be insignificant (the means are = to or only slightly larger than the standard deviations, and are pretty close to zero. Of course we know that all these aberrations are miniscule when compared to chromatic aberration, regular astigmatism, and ordinary defocus, except in disaster corneas. Now it is true that some or all of the 3rd order aberrations will get larger with LASIK, but I can't see spherical aberration as getting larger or any more significant than the others, unless you've got other references to throw my way (please do). My guess is that irregular astigmatism and distortion will win out in importance in problem corneas.
You gotta love those Zernike Polynomials!
w.stacy, o.d.
>In fact, I'll give you the link to a table such information showing the >first five orders of Zernicke aberrations as a function of three [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Dr. Leukoma - 29 Jul 2005 03:43 GMT > OK I'm a bit dizzy from looking at those numbers, but from what I can > make out, spherical aberration seems to be lower in magnitude than both [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > > >DrG I didn't intend to make you dizzy. I can see that you might want a primer, and I found an excellent one. It can be found here: http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catalog/10260-RS/WavefrontSalmon.html
By the way, the rest of the article supported by the spreadsheet data can be found here: http://arapaho.nsuok.edu/~salmonto/Zernike%20norms.pdf
And, by the way, I did not invent Zernicke polynomials, and I didn't say I "loved" them, but that is the modern language of optics....until now. Get ready for Fourier.
DrG
Dr. Leukoma - 29 Jul 2005 03:55 GMT And now, for the mother of all papers on wavefront optics as it applies to refractive surgery there is: http://cornea.berkeley.edu/pubs/Proc_SPIE_4245-Problems_with_wavefront_aberratio ns_applied_to_refractive_surgery.pdf
Enjoy.
DrG
Pauli Soininen - 30 Jul 2005 00:33 GMT > I honestly am quite surprised that there could be much of a debate > about this, since study after study of both myopic and hyperopic LASIK > patients confirms that spherical aberration increases, sometimes by as > much as a couple of hundred percent. Spherical aberration is one of > the most significant higher order aberrations in even virgin eyes. I agree. I don't understand why spherical aberration is not seen as the main problem of refractive surgery. Still, at the same time I have to once again realize that some people's eyes actually seem to have fixed this explicit problem, how, that I'm not sure. But spherical aberration is something that I can literally see, very simply too. I hardly see any room for confusion there. One very simple way of thinking about this is just looking at the basic ablation profile. It is totally spherically aberrated.
Well. About prolate and oblate. As we all know, removing refractive error means that tissue has to be removed. Removing the tissue so that the cornea still has the same amount of spherical aberration (or no spherical aberration) as in the first place means so much reduction in thickness that it is basically never possible. Thus, a compromise is made (as we all know). Then there will simply be more spherical aberration than in the first place and therefore the original prolate is lost, more or less.
Apparently one can have oblate but still perfect vision. And if that is true, then who cares about prolate, what we want is no spherical aberration. It still seems to me that it's possible that in reality there is only one ideal corneal curvature and that is simply when there is no refractive error in any part of the cornea. If that is true, then it would seem that there are not two possible "oblate" or "prolate" versions of a successful refractive correction. There is only one, the one without spherical aberration (or other higher order aberrations).
If somebody can clear this up, at least from clear errors, it'd be nice.
Pauli Soininen - 30 Jul 2005 00:42 GMT Sorry about the extra linefeed mishap in my previous post. (And I hope to check this news group shortly again but I think I don't have a computer at hand for a week from now on.)
Dr. Leukoma - 30 Jul 2005 17:02 GMT > > I honestly am quite surprised that there could be much of a debate > > about this, since study after study of both myopic and hyperopic LASIK [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > If somebody can clear this up, at least from clear errors, it'd be nice. What matters is the quality of the image on the retina. In itself, prolateness does not guarantee that no spherical aberration is present. Actually the paraboloid does a better job at that. What matters is that the resulting peripheral rays are eliminated -- or properly focused -- by the time they reach the retina. For this, the pupil is invaluable, and therefore the optical properties of the cornea within the entrance pupil must be considered.
DrG
Pauli Soininen - 28 Jul 2005 00:49 GMT Is this true:
Oblate equals spherical aberration
(Perfect) prolate equals zero spherical aberration
??
I'm really puzzled. If yes, then it clears up a lot. If not, then, I don't know again (how prolate exactly is better than oblate).
If I'm not mistaken, spherical aberration is not related specifically to fovea or periphery, but rather the whole visual field. I'm not suggesting that Glenn's information about fovea and periphery doesn't make any sense, but at least for me the picture is still not clear (at all) about this subject.
William Stacy - 28 Jul 2005 01:33 GMT >Is this true: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >?? > No. Prolate just means the (solid) geometry of the surface is more closely approximated by rotating an ellipse around it's major axis (the longer one), while oblate means it is approximated by rotating the ellipse around its minor (shorter) axis. It really doesn't say much about the spherical aberration involved, which really depends on curvature, pupil size, and other factors. And just saying "prolate" is pretty meaningless, IMO, without specifying the mathematical details.
>I'm really puzzled. If yes, then it clears up a lot. If not, then, I don't >know again (how prolate exactly is better than oblate). > I wish they'd never started using the terms. But it makes people sound like they're smart.
>If I'm not mistaken, spherical aberration is not related specifically to >fovea or periphery, but rather the whole visual field. I'm not suggesting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Suffice it to say that the human eye is an amazing design, and yes, the cornea is normally somewhat prolate, providing just about the right amount of spherical aberration to be neutralized by the crystalline lens. i.e., an almost perfect design. Mess with the curvatures, and you almost always end up with more aberration than you started with (the promises of super vision with wave front analysis haven't really materialized).
clear as mud?
w.stacy, o.d.
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