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Medical Forum / General / Vision / June 2005

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Refraction...

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John Yasar - 07 Jun 2005 09:19 GMT
Hi folks,

When I had my refraction check, I had to look into a machine where it
measured the refraction I think, what is this machine called, how does
it work?

And, when you don't have a cyclo refraction, just you look through the
machine, what is it called, manifest refraction?

Signature

PV2 Yasar, M
U.S. ARMY
AH-64D "Armt Dawg"
A Co/602d ASB/2ID/EUSA - South Korea
Tuesday, 07 Jun 2005 / 17:19:34 Korea Standard Time (+0900)

Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2005 10:23 GMT
> And, when you don't have a cyclo refraction, just you look through the
> machine, what is it called, manifest refraction?

If you had to choose "1 or 2, 2 or 3" then the instrument is called a
"phoroptor".

If "the machine" made all the measurements without your participation then
it's called an "autorefractor."

Manifest refractions are done with a phoroptor. Autorefractor measurements
are an estimate, not usually used for final prescriptions.

-MT
John Yasar - 07 Jun 2005 12:46 GMT
>If you had to choose "1 or 2, 2 or 3" then the instrument is called a
>"phoroptor".
>  

Ok then this is not it, I didn't have to do anything, I was just told to
look in there and the image in the machine kept going blurry and clear.

>If "the machine" made all the measurements without your participation then
>it's called an "autorefractor."
>  

This must be it. How does it measure the refraction, is it an estimate
due to ciliary muscles not being paralyzed?

>Manifest refractions are done with a phoroptor. Autorefractor measurements
>are an estimate, not usually used for final prescriptions.
>
>  

Roger, does it depend on the person and the type of myopia on how much
does it differ from autorefrac and cyclo?

Thanks....

Signature

PV2 Yasar, M
U.S. ARMY
AH-64D "Armt Dawg"
A Co/602d ASB/2ID/EUSA - South Korea
Tuesday, 07 Jun 2005 / 20:45:17 Korea Standard Time (+0900)

Dr. Leukoma - 07 Jun 2005 13:06 GMT
I use a streak retinoscope at the beginning of every refraction.  By
blurring the patient with plus and moving the light across the retina
in various meridians, I can estimate the refractive error to within
about 0.50 diopters.  It takes less than five minutes for both eyes.
The autorefractor uses the same principal, except that the light is
non-visible infrared.

I once had a patient who was a myope of -2.50 diopters, and who wore
contact lenses.  Two years later she came back with a prescription of
-7.50 in eyeglasses.  As a nurse, she had developed some type of
allergy/infection and had her eyes examined at the medical school.  She
was given a prescription from the autorefractor "to get her by" until
she could wear her contact lenses again.  Despite the fact that she had
worn the eyeglasses for nearly one year, she still had a manifest
refraction of -2.50 in my office.

The take home message is that the autorefractor was capable of a 5
diopter magnitude error.  This is why it is important to check the
results.  On the other hand, the standard deviation is probably closer
to +/- 0.50 diopters.

The other message for "Otis fans," is that over-minusing a patient by 5
diopters did not increase the patient's myopia.

DrG
John Yasar - 07 Jun 2005 14:15 GMT
>I use a streak retinoscope at the beginning of every refraction.  By
>blurring the patient with plus and moving the light across the retina
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>non-visible infrared.
>  

Oh I see, I think this is when I had my last exam 2 years ago I had to
look through a different device in a seperate room where my doctor came
and looked from the other side and said hmm you have some slight
refraction error but let's go to the office and look into it.

>I once had a patient who was a myope of -2.50 diopters, and who wore
>contact lenses.  Two years later she came back with a prescription of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>refraction of -2.50 in my office.
>  

This is unbelievable!!!! -5.00 overprescribed!!!

>The take home message is that the autorefractor was capable of a 5
>diopter magnitude error.  This is why it is important to check the
>results.  On the other hand, the standard deviation is probably closer
>to +/- 0.50 diopters.
>  

Kind of worried me, I am wondering how much could the deviation be from
my real refraction in my recent military test.

>The other message for "Otis fans," is that over-minusing a patient by 5
>diopters did not increase the patient's myopia.
>
>  

I am convinced that this entirely depends on the person and his/her
eyes. Meaning the "staircase" issue. I think I am one example where my
refraction didn't change, that is of course if the autorefractor was not
deviated by a huge magnitude.

Signature

PV2 Yasar, M
U.S. ARMY
AH-64D "Armt Dawg"
A Co/602d ASB/2ID/EUSA - South Korea
Tuesday, 07 Jun 2005 / 22:14:42 Korea Standard Time (+0900)

Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2005 14:37 GMT
> This must be it. How does it measure the refraction, is it an estimate due
> to ciliary muscles not being paralyzed?

Not really; you could use an autorefractor after cycloplegia and perhaps get
a better result.

The image faded in and out because the instrument "teases" your
accommodation to relax by focusing the image further and further away.

Autorefractors have improved greatly in the last 20 years but they're still
way off, sometimes. A beam of infrared is shone into the eye and focused on
the retina. The instrument "tunes" the focused image on the retina and
reaches a nominal "refraction."

Autorefractors (and retinoscopy) are considered "objective" because you
don't have to participate.  The "1 or 2" refraction is called "subjective"
because the subject chooses the final value. "Manifest" is an old term,
coined before there were autorefractors. In current usage it's synonymous
with the "subjective" refraction, with or without cycloplegia.

Autorefractor results are now more _consistent_ from trial to trial. But
even when the results are identical, over and over, it will vary somewhat
from the "subjective" refraction. Retinoscopy is an old technique that works
similarly - the results can be very consistent but still not match the final
"1 or 2" refraction. These days most myopia research is done with
autorefractors and cycloplegia. The reasoning is that even if the result
doesn't match the subjective refraction, consistency is more important if
you're trying to measure change over time.

> Roger, does it depend on the person and the type of myopia on how much
> does it differ from autorefrac and cyclo?

All these instruments have their own tendency to error. So does the
subjective refraction. What's most useful is comparing the two (or three)
different types of measurement to know what a single individual is doing.
Autorefractors (and retinoscopy) tend to show astigmatism that isn't
confirmed on the subjective refraction. Each instrument has its own tendency
to cause "instrument myopia" where a person simply accommodates more when
you stick his head in an instrument or hold something up to his face. That's
where you get the 5-diopter errors. However it's much more common to see
large errors in farsighted people than in nearsighted folks. Farsighted
people generally have a habit of accommodating constantly. Getting the
_accurate_ result often requires multiple doses of cycloplegia. However,
prescribing the _accurate_ result often makes them come back mad - they
throw their glasses down on the counter saying "these don't work!"

That's why I usually use the subjective refraction _without_ cycloplegia for
the eyeglass prescription. It's done in the "habitual state" and the lenses
are essentially chosen by the patient. If there's a problem with the
glasses, say they're made too minus, it's because the patient told me that
any less minus was blurry.

Otis is fixed on the idea that minus causes harm, so he believes every
myope's glasses should be made blurry and making them sharp should be called
"overcorrection."  In the real world, glasses are made with the minimum
minus necessary for best acuity. Anything less is "undercorrected" because
roadsigns are blurry. Anything more is "overcorrected" because it doesn't
add acuity.

It used to be popular to believe that overcorrecting would hasten myopia. In
fact it doesn't, except by stimulating a little more accommodation, the same
way farsighted people do constantly.

Likewise you might think that undercorrecting would slow the progress of
myopia, but it actually seems to do the opposite - witness the Indonesian
study that had to be terminated because the undercorrected group got worse
_faster_.

-MT
William Stacy - 07 Jun 2005 15:36 GMT
> Autorefractors (and retinoscopy) are considered "objective" because you
> don't have to participate.  The "1 or 2" refraction is called "subjective"
> because the subject chooses the final value. "Manifest" is an old term,
> coined before there were autorefractors. In current usage it's synonymous
> with the "subjective" refraction, with or without cycloplegia.

Interesting.  I've always used the term "manifest" to specify a
subjective refraction without cycloplegia and still do.  "Subjective" to
me means refraction via a phoropter with or without cyclo, while
"cycloplegic" means just that.  Guess I'm an old term too...

w.stacy, o.l.d.
Mike Tyner - 07 Jun 2005 18:34 GMT
> Interesting.  I've always used the term "manifest" to specify a subjective
> refraction without cycloplegia and still do.  "Subjective" to me means
> refraction via a phoropter with or without cyclo, while "cycloplegic"
> means just that.  Guess I'm an old term too...
>
> w.stacy, o.l.d.

There's logic to both usages and it's ambiguous, so in print you'd clarify
whether you mean "manifest with" or "manifest without."

I learned it as "manifested by subjective refraction."

Literally, retinoscopy and autorefraction also "manifest" a value.

-MT, older every day...
drfrank21@gmail.com - 07 Jun 2005 22:56 GMT
> > Autorefractors (and retinoscopy) are considered "objective" because you
> > don't have to participate.  The "1 or 2" refraction is called "subjective"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> w.stacy, o.l.d.

I've always specified manifest "wet" (obviously for cyclo) and
manifest "dry" to avoid any confusion. I'd bet that if you polled
10 O.D.'s you'd get 10 slightly different answers regarding
these terms.

frank
silverblue001@hotmail.com - 08 Jun 2005 01:03 GMT
How accurate is the autorefractor at determining the cylindrical
correction?  Close to 100%?
 
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