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Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2005

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Independant fine/small controlled eye movement must be normal

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andrewedwardjudd@hotmail.com - 18 Apr 2005 23:28 GMT
I want to try and work out why people seem to disagree with this idea.
Its not obvious to me why they disagree.

There appears to be a concensus view on this list that eye muscle
control is from a single central point.

Dr Judy>>  Eye muscle motor control is from a single central point,
there may be damage in the motor nerve pathways to each eye, but the
control is central.

Andrew>>> What do you mean by a central point?  A single tiny point
without the  ability to differenitate and independantly control the
eyes?  That cannot be true.

Dr Judy>>Sorry, you are wrong.   Check any neuroanatomy and
neurophysiology text. The motor control of the two eyes is not
independent.  If it were, we would see double.

Lets look at some observations:

1. Human eyes have the ability to point precisely to an object by a
process called fovealisation.   Each object seen is precisely (or
should be) on the centre of the fovea.   To be aware of the gap between
the bars of a 20/20 letter E and move from one bar to the other
requires an eye movement of one minute of one degree.  Such examples of
precise eye movement are typical for a person with good vision - even
the moon seen from earth only occupies 0.52 Degrees of arc.

2. Fovealisation has to take account of what is seen on the retina
*and* what is desired to be seen on the retina.

3. Saccades are generally defined as being conjugate or exactly
similar.  Vergence movements can be unequal.   Different brain areas
seem to generate the two movements.

4. If you place a string on your nose 40 feet long you see a double
image of the string for the length of the string or until the limit of
your ability to separate out the strings.   Therefore you see double
from the near point to optical infinity, and can by choice decide which
part of the double image to resolve into a single image so that the
string forms a cross at that point.   There is no reflex which forces
you to decide where to see the cross.  Each fusion movement is by
conscious choice of what is attended to.

5. If the string position is moved so that it is held at the centre
point of the left eye then for all string positions where a cross is
seen (and assuming the string does not sag) only the right eye moves to
target the string.

So when people say "Eye muscle motor control is from a single central
point"  Baring in mind all of the above points, what exactly are they
meaning?  

Andrew
g.gatti@agora.it - 18 Apr 2005 23:49 GMT
andrewedwardj...@hotmail.com wrote:

> So when people say "Eye muscle motor control is from a single central
> point"  Baring in mind all of the above points, what exactly are they
> meaning?

Dear Andrew,
how do you explain that an ex -23 D myopic person can read easily well
the license plates of cars (9cm) at 15 meters?

What is your opinion?
Neil Brooks - 19 Apr 2005 00:00 GMT
>andrewedwardj...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>What is your opinion?

I'm guessing the license plates must be painted on a billboard, and
their numbers are something like 150 feet tall.

That fits.  Yep.  Uh-huh.
William Stacy - 18 Apr 2005 23:56 GMT
> So when people say "Eye muscle motor control is from a single central
> point"  Baring in mind all of the above points, what exactly are they
> meaning?  
>
> Andrew

I think they mean that voluntary oculomotor innervation origniates at a
single location within the central nervsous system (as opposed to the
autonomic nervous system, which might have some overlapping, fine-tuning
feedback loops, depending on the task at hand, so it may be a bit of a
simplification).

w.stacy, o.d.
RM - 19 Apr 2005 01:42 GMT
<> So when people say "Eye muscle motor control is from a single central
> point"  Baring in mind all of the above points, what exactly are they
> meaning?

I'm not sure what any of your points numbered 1-5 have to do with whether or
whether not there is a single CNS "point" where eye movements are
controlled.

In my opinion, and I am not an expert in neuroophthalmology or eye movement
control, a more correct statement might be that there is very tight
coordination of eye movements.
Jan - 19 Apr 2005 10:37 GMT
>I want to try and work out why people seem to disagree with this idea.
> Its not obvious to me why they disagree.

Andrew, then  buy some books on this subject.
This newsgroup is not an education site.

For instance:

"An introduction to the visual system" Martin J. Tovée  ISBN 0-521-48339-5

''Neuro-Ophthalmology Review Manual'' Lanning B. Kline   Frank J.Bajandas.
ISBN 1-55642-470-1

If you don't agree with the authors then please tell them what's incorrect
and all off us shall buy the revised books.

Signature

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

Dr Judy - 19 Apr 2005 15:36 GMT
>I want to try and work out why people seem to disagree with this idea.
> Its not obvious to me why they disagree.
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> you to decide where to see the cross.  Each fusion movement is by
> conscious choice of what is attended to.

No reflex controls what object a person chooses to attend.  Once the object
is chosen, and attention is directed there, then the autonomic process
begins and both eyes look at the chosen object and it is seen clear and
single and on the fovea of both eyes.  The two eye move in conjunction, to
the same place and all, non attended objects are seen slightly blurred and
double as they are not on the fovea of either eye.

In your example, try putting some beads every four inches along the string.
You will see only the bead to which you have directed your attention as
single.  If you think that the eyes can move independently then direct your
right eye to one bead and your left eye to another bead, ie put one bead on
the fovea of one eye and the other bead on the fovea of the other eye so
that both beads are clear and seen as overlapping each other as opposed to
horizontally separated.  I think you will find you cannot do this.

> 5. If the string position is moved so that it is held at the centre
> point of the left eye then for all string positions where a cross is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> point"  Baring in mind all of the above points, what exactly are they
> meaning?

That both eyes move to put the object of regard on the fovea.  Depending
upon the starting location, the eyes may move differently, but they are
moving together, to the same point and controlled by the same cortical area.

Dr Judy

> Andrew
 
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