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Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2005Best Practice
Firstly I want to be clear that I'm not attacking people in this newsgroup like Robert, Specs31 (if he's still around), et al, who in my opinion have given consistantly great advice and have greatly increased my knowledge. But, this is my recent experience of visiting opticians to buy spectacles and it's not a happy one. After reading this newsgroup and deciding on mono pd's, heights, pre-frame fitting and lens choices with good abbe values I thought my purchase would be simple. /Rant on My RX Right eye Sphere -2.50 Cyl -2.25 Axis 5 Left Eye Sphere -3.75 Cyl -1.50 Axis 170 Optician 1 "Mono pd's? You won't need that for your prescription." Rapid exit Optcian 2 "I haven't got the lenses that you mentioned but I do have polycarbonate which has far better optical properties than anything on the market. Abbe is just technical jargon." Rapid exit Optician 3 "No, we don't have those lenses but we do have Zeiss lenses which are the best in the world. Go to any optician and they'll tell you the same thing. Have you considered polycarbonate?" Rapid exit Optician 3 "No, we don't have those lenses but we do have Nikon lenses which are the best in the world. What's an Abbe value?" Rapid Exit Optician 4 "Yes we have those lenses, but you don't need pre-frame fitting and vertical centres with your prescription" Sigh, exit I could go on but it gets very depressing. So, I decided to go to the Optometry department of the local university, City University in London, as they must carry out best practice. My appointment went reasonably well, I described my past with badly fitting spectacles causing discomfort and poor vision. I requested mono and vertical pds's, pre-frame fitting, and found that they were able to supply one of my lens choices, Seiko Super 16. I returned two weeks later for my spectacles, at first glance they appeared to be ok and i ordered a second pair. When I got home I found that that if I raised my spectacles slightly and tilted my head back a little I could get clearer vision. When I mentioned this to them they said it was probably due to my prescription and that there was nothing wrong with my spectacles. I thought I was imagining it as they must know best. But, still if I raised my spectacles slightly without tilting my head I could still see better. When I returned for my second pair of spectacles, while the assistant was away, I decided to read my notes that had been left on the table. I found that I hadn't been given Seiko Super 16 spherical lenses but Seiko Maxima aspheric. I'd already done my research on these and they were different lenses. I also noticed that vertical pd's hadn't been passed on to the lab. When I mentioned this I was told that with my prescription that it was unecessary. Having read Specs31's posts about spectacle fitting and aspheric lenses, and having previous trouble with badly fitting spectacles I told them I didn't agree. The trainee then called in her Trainer who was absolutely adamant that vertical pd's weren't necessary for my prescription and glossed over the fact that different lenses had been ordered to the ones I had specifically asked for. Her comment was "You're not having a problem with aspheric lenses so what are you complaining for". Do vertical pd's and supplying the lenses asked for really cause opticians that much trouble ! Anyway, to cut this short I can still see better if I raise my spectacles slightly and I'm still on the search for an optician that doesn't have the morals of a used car salesman. Which is going to be very, very hard considering that the muppets at City University appear to be training most of the opticans in my area. /Rant off Anyway, just want to add again that from reading this newsgroup for a number of years I know that they're very good and competent people in this profession, however you are very hard to find! > Anyway, to cut this short I can still see better if I raise my spectacles > slightly You eyeglass prescription is likely overminused. Some of the excessive minus power in the top (=distance) part of the lens is neutralized by tilting you head back and looking slightly into the channel of your bifocal. This is the problem of the refractionist who gave you the presription. You are right to be annoyed at the widespread lack of understanding of ophthalmic optics these days. Nowadays, at least in the US, optometry schools spend way more time teaching optometrists the medical aspects of vision rather than traditional ophthalmics. That, combined with the "fast sell-sell-sell, make profit-profit-profit" mentality of the prevalent commercial optical chains makes finding a good technically proficient optician difficult. Finding a good optician is hard, and once you find a good one stay with him. Robert, who posts here frequently, seems quite knowledgable to me. Way more so than I am I'm afraid. Hi mb, I must leap to some defence of TCU ( I did train there, admittedly 30yrs ago!) The Seiko Maxima is actually a more expensive lens than the Super 16 (which is only in spherical form) and from the technical literature would appear to be the same material. So if they charged you for Super 16 then from that point of view you are better off. The stock lenses are supplied finished from Japan (probably) and your prescription should be stock lenses. However the surfaced lenses are done in the UK. Regarding mono pds and vertical centration height, with your prescription the assumption is usually these are not neccessary, having said that there are certainly some situations when they SHOULD be used, and if you request their use then they should, I feel, use them. You know your eyes best Regarding the fitting it is possible that the panotscopic angle ( angle of sides to the front) may need adjustment. My suggestion go back and see them. As regarding the 'muppets' training all the opticians in your area TCU has the one of the largest departments training Optometrists in the UK. Dispensing Opticians are trained either by distance learning or at the ABDO College or near you at City and Islington College. Regards Ian Hodgson - Isle of Man > Firstly I want to be clear that I'm not attacking people in this newsgroup > like Robert, Specs31 (if he's still around), et al, who in my opinion have [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > of years I know that they're very good and competent people in this > profession, however you are very hard to find! > Hi mb, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > So if they charged you for Super 16 then from that point of view you are > better off. I was not "better off" as I had been charged for the aspheric and not the spherical. To how many opticians do I have to point this out to : my vision is precious to me and I will pay for the cost of good vision, if it is high I am happy to pay it. As long as the spectacles are fitted well and I have good vision through them then I will return to that optician every year. > The stock lenses are supplied finished from Japan (probably) and your > prescription should be stock lenses. However the surfaced lenses are done [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > are certainly some situations when they SHOULD be used, and if you request > their use then they should, I feel, use them. You know your eyes best Hmm. Don't Americans have an expression about what happens when you ASSUME things. I'm happy that you feel that they should use vertical pd's, especially as I had specifically requested that they use them. > Regarding the fitting it is possible that the panotscopic angle ( angle of > sides to the front) may need adjustment. My suggestion go back and see > them. That would be wonderful were it not for the fact that I had been harangued about requesting vertical pd's. > As regarding the 'muppets' training all the opticians in your area TCU has > the one of the largest departments training Optometrists in the UK. > Dispensing Opticians are trained either by distance learning or at the > ABDO > College or near you at City and Islington College. Perhaps that's why the quality is so poor. Largest does not necessarily mean the best. > Regards Regards. >Firstly I want to be clear that I'm not attacking people in this newsgroup >like Robert, Specs31 (if he's still around), et al, who in my opinion have [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >just technical jargon." >Rapid exit LOL! We don't want no "technical jargon" to interfere with the sale. Would you like some fries with those glasses mister? >Optician 3 >"No, we don't have those lenses but we do have Zeiss lenses which are the [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >thought I was imagining it as they must know best. But, still if I raised my >spectacles slightly without tilting my head I could still see better. Can't say for sure but as Ian said I would look at the panto adjustment. Looking at the lenses from the side make the angle more like this / instead of this I . >When I returned for my second pair of spectacles, while the assistant was >away, I decided to read my notes that had been left on the table. I found [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >them I didn't agree. The trainee then called in her Trainer who was >absolutely adamant that vertical pd's weren't necessary for my prescription It does if the lens is aspheric. Your Rx has about five diopters of power on the vertical meridian, more than enough to blur your vision if the OCs are misplaced, aspheric or not. >and glossed over the fact that different lenses had been ordered to the ones >I had specifically asked for. Her comment was "You're not having a problem >with aspheric lenses so what are you complaining for". Do vertical pd's and >supplying the lenses asked for really cause opticians that much trouble ! Ignorance is bliss. >Anyway, to cut this short I can still see better if I raise my spectacles >slightly and I'm still on the search for an optician that doesn't have the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >of years I know that they're very good and competent people in this >profession, however you are very hard to find! I don't know how bad it is in the UK but in the US only 23 states regulate who can sell and fit eyeglasses, primarily because the Optometrists and chain stores can funnel a lot more money into the state legislatures than opticians. Regards, Robert Martellaro ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Optician/Owner Roberts Optical robopt@execpc.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France Lots snipped > I don't know how bad it is in the UK but in the US only 23 states regulate who > can sell and fit eyeglasses, primarily because the Optometrists and chain stores > can funnel a lot more money into the state legislatures than opticians. In the UK anyone can supply and fit glasses without any form of qualification. Upto 15 years ago (maybe more) when the market was de-regulated spectacles had to be dispensed by or either an Optometrist or Dispensing Optician ( qualification FBDO) or an OMP , now this only applies to certain categories of persons, ie under 16 or registered blind. But going back to aspherics and fitting, we keep talking about optical centres HOWEVER with an aspheric the best position for the visual axis of the eye will be, I suggest, on the axis of rotation of the aspheric surface, this may not be the same as the optical centre if any prism is present (not in this case from the published Rx). Also pupil centre and visual axis are not neccessarily co-incident ( just use a reflection pupilometer and this can be quite apparant). Given the above fitting Rodenstock's Cosmolit Bifocal can be interesting as with all bifocals the seg height is what worries most people. Regards Ian Hodgson - Isle of Man There are idiots of all kinds in the world, now listen to this particularly fruitful idiot named MB > Firstly I want to be clear that I'm not attacking people in this newsgroup > like Robert, Specs31 (if he's still around), et al, who in my opinion have > given consistantly great advice and have greatly increased my knowledge. Great knowledge you have got, really! > But, this is my recent experience of visiting opticians to buy spectacles > and it's not a happy one. After reading this newsgroup and deciding on mono > pd's, heights, pre-frame fitting and lens choices with good abbe values I > thought my purchase would be simple. HOW CAN THE EXPERIENCE OF BUYING GLASSES BE A GOOD ONE, EVER??????????? > /Rant on > My RX [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "Mono pd's? You won't need that for your prescription." > Rapid exit You exited because you think yourself a smart man, BUT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO LESS SMART PEOPLE? DO YOU THINK THE OD WOULD HAVE DAMAGED THEM? > Optcian 2 > "I haven't got the lenses that you mentioned but I do have polycarbonate > which has far better optical properties than anything on the market. Abbe is > just technical jargon." > Rapid exit You exited because you think yourself a smart man, BUT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO LESS SMART PEOPLE? DO YOU THINK THE OD WOULD HAVE DAMAGED THEM? > Optician 3 > "No, we don't have those lenses but we do have Zeiss lenses which are the > best in the world. Go to any optician and they'll tell you the same thing. > Have you considered polycarbonate?" > Rapid exit You exited because you think yourself a smart man, BUT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO LESS SMART PEOPLE? DO YOU THINK THE OD WOULD HAVE DAMAGED THEM? > Optician 3 > "No, we don't have those lenses but we do have Nikon lenses which are the > best in the world. What's an Abbe value?" > Rapid Exit You exited because you think yourself a smart man, BUT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO LESS SMART PEOPLE? DO YOU THINK THE OD WOULD HAVE DAMAGED THEM? > Optician 4 > "Yes we have those lenses, but you don't need pre-frame fitting and vertical > centres with your prescription" > Sigh, exit You exited because you think yourself a smart man, BUT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED TO LESS SMART PEOPLE? DO YOU THINK THE OD WOULD HAVE DAMAGED THEM? > I could go on but it gets very depressing. So, I decided to go to the > Optometry department of the local university, City University in London, as > they must carry out best practice. Yes, trust the Universities, where they should do research and instead simpy manipulate data for their own personal belief system... > My appointment went reasonably well, I described my past with badly fitting > spectacles causing discomfort and poor vision. I requested mono and vertical > pds's, pre-frame fitting, and found that they were able to supply one of my > lens choices, Seiko Super 16. NOW YOU THINK THIS SEIKO SUPER 16 WILL NOT PRODUCE YOU DISCOMFORT AND POOR VISION? Perhaps for a while you may find them good, just for your mental conviction, but sooner or later you will start to feel bad, as usual. But I do not know you will have the guts to come back here and say: SIGH. > I returned two weeks later for my spectacles, at first glance they appeared > to be ok and i ordered a second pair. When I got home I found that that if I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thought I was imagining it as they must know best. But, still if I raised my > spectacles slightly without tilting my head I could still see better. WOW, JUST AT THE BEGINNING OF THEIR USAGE, THE LENSES WHERE ALREADY UNSATISFACTORY! > When I returned for my second pair of spectacles, while the assistant was > away, I decided to read my notes that had been left on the table. I found > that I hadn't been given Seiko Super 16 spherical lenses but Seiko Maxima > aspheric. I'd already done my research on these and they were different > lenses. I also noticed that vertical pd's hadn't been passed on to the lab. aha, GOOD, the optician simply treated you bad, they cheated you, as usual, but HEY MAN YOU STILL HAVE HOPE!!! Your Super 16 may prove right after all!!! Let's see... > When I mentioned this I was told that with my prescription that it was > unecessary. Having read Specs31's posts about spectacle fitting and aspheric [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > considering that the muppets at City University appear to be training most > of the opticans in my area. So, we are in the hands of this really fraudolent people. First they teach a VERY WRONG OPHTHALMOLOGY, who destroys the eye instead of curing it, then they train their opticians nto to follow the desires of the client... > /Rant off > > Anyway, just want to add again that from reading this newsgroup for a number > of years I know that they're very good and competent people in this > profession, however you are very hard to find! BUT NOW, WHAT IS THE MORALE OF THIS???? THERE ARE COMPETENT PEOPLE, BUT WHERE ARE THEM?????? YOU CAN SAY THERE ARE ONLY WHEN YOU FIND THEM, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO FIND EVEN A SINGLE ONE OF THEM IN DOZENS YOU HAVE TRIED AND FAILED. WHAT MORE PROOF DO YOU WANT THAT THIS SCIENCE AND THIS MEDICINE ARE ALL BOGUS, FICTITIOUS? have you noticed that nobody cares what you post? > have you noticed that nobody cares what you post? I don't think so, many people contact me directly via e-mail because are afraid to be ridiculized by such a criminal as people like you |
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