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Medical Forum / General / Vision / April 2005procedures for student using laser pointer in class without authorization?
What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer during a class without authorization from the teacher? TIA... "z" <z@y.x.invalid> wrote in message > What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer > during a class without authorization from the teacher? Before calling it "dangerous," they should inquire about the number of eye injuries caused by consumer-grade milliwatt laser pointers. When they find it to be near zero, hopefully they will crank down the rhetoric a little. Be glad it wasn't a Smith and Wesson. -MT > "z" <z@y.x.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > When they find it to be near zero, hopefully they will crank down the > rhetoric a little. Be glad it wasn't a Smith and Wesson. Whew, I was about to recommend the death penalty... I'd worry more if the rest of the students jumped from their chairs and started to chase the spot around the floor.  SignatureCheers, Bev xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine. > What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer > during a class without authorization from the teacher? > > TIA... If you had read the replies to the same post a while back, probably your own, you'd not have to ask this again. How dangerous is a laser guide point as used on a rifle or handgun? How disruptive can it be? I'd say it's about as dangerous as a mouse running loose. Or using a flashlight. >> What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student >> in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I'd say it's about as dangerous as a mouse running loose. >Or using a flashlight. It actually is irrelevant how dangerous it is. If its a private school, they can ban anything they want, for any reason. They can say no one can wear green shirts. Or use black pens. Or bring laser pointers to class. If its a public school, there is still wide latitutde the school has to apply rules that prevent disruption of the learning environment, so a "no laser pointer" rule would probably hold up regardless of the physical danger posed. > > What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > > in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you had read the replies to the same post a while back, probably your > own, you'd not have to ask this again. Wrong. The issue is both safety and liability. You can ignore the safety if that's your belief; you can't ignore the liability. Also, if school administration bans the laser but does not provide teachers with procedures for implementing the ban, it is in the category of unenforceable rules, and unenforceable rules invite disruption in the classroom. If you thought about it for a moment, you would not be so smart @ssed in your response. > The issue is both safety and liability. > > You can ignore the safety if that's your belief; you can't ignore > the liability. As you have been informed, the safety issue is nil. You decide outside of this forum what level of punishment if any is appropriate. Dear Friend, Subject: Milli-watt pointers These lazers are subject to product liability. If the "pointer" produced severe risk for the eye -- they simply would not be sold. The lawsuits would be huge. The pointer-lazer (diode) is save under that consideration. High-power lazers (commercial) can in fact burn holes in you retina. I depends on the power delivered on the retina. Best, Otis Engineer > > > What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > > > in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > If you thought about it for a moment, you would not be so smart > @ssed in your response. otisbrown@pa.net These lazers are subject to product liability. If the "pointer" produced severe risk for the eye -- they simply would not be sold. The lawsuits would be huge. Otis Engineer =================== Very astute. May we extend your logic and conclude that table saws, bandsaws, chain saws, welding equipment, 357 magnums, high performance cars, and a multitude of other consumer products pose no serious risk to their users or innocent bystanders? By your logic, they are legal, so they must be reasonably safe. FYI - I find it difficult to believe that a person who claims to be an engineer can't spell the word "laser." The spelling "lazer" is common among high school students and those who are marginally educated. Hmm. there seems to be some warning about these things. Laser Pointer Safety http://www.laserinstitute.org/publications/safety_bulletin/laser_pointer/ http://www.laserinstitute.org/publications/safety_bulletin/govt_regulation/Govt_ Regulations.pdf I guess someone could prove once and for all these things are as "harmless" as some people make them out to be - and maybe volunteer to have one of these pointers shined into one of their eyes for a prolong period of time. Martin > Dear Friend, > Subject: Milli-watt pointers [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > If you thought about it for a moment, you would not be so smart > > @ssed in your response. > Hmm. there seems to be some warning about these things. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > volunteer to have one of these pointers shined into one of their > eyes for a prolong period of time. Isn't that like shoving a pencil into a kids eye, then claiming it proves that pencils are too dangerous for the public to use? ... Erich > > Hmm. there seems to be some warning about these things. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > ... Erich I think the debate revolves around the word "use" - using a LP to point out some element of of an image projected during a powerpoint show isn't going to hurt anyone - same as someone using a sharpen pencil to write down notes about the what is being presented. Both activities are what each of the products were designed for. However, the problem is the "use" of these products outside the scope of what they were intended for. Pencils are dangerous when used as a weapon. Diesel fuel is a very handy thing to use for powering the diesel engines used to run school buses - fertilizer works great at making the grass on the football field grow better, but if these two products were to be used inappropriately - well.. the FBI is most likely going to want to talk with you about that. Martin > > > Hmm. there seems to be some warning about these things. > > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > to be used inappropriately - well.. the FBI is most likely going > to want to talk with you about that. The incident described was a kid using a laser pointer to disrupt a class. High powered lasers can indeed be dangerous, but common laser pointers are not a big risk to health. It's just a device for making a red spot appear on a surface. Handy for presentations, teasing cats and apparently teachers. So why are you talking about making bombs from diesel fuel and fertilizer? ... Erich I don't think that the issue is one of safety, but rather one of disruption. The disruption may further be compounded by hordes of irate (albeit grossly misinformed) parents descending upon hapless school administrators and threats of lawsuits no matter how frivolous. DrG >>> > Hmm. there seems to be some warning about these things. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > ... Erich Because he can? SignatureRegards, Nicolaas. 2005 Pricelessware CD now available. Pricelessware - the best of the best in freeware, as determined by the readers of alt.comp.freeware. E-Mail me for details: raptor@top.net.nz - mention CD in subject. ... When you argue with a fool, chances are that the fool you are arguing with is doing the same thing. Nobody is going to "stare" into a laser unless they were absolutely forced to do so with they eyelid held open with a speculum. The natural reaction would be to immediately avert the gaze from the light source. Even white light can be toxic to the retinal photoreceptors if sufficiently bright and prolonged. It's a time and intensity function. The issue of low power diode laser pointers is one of public perception and the subsequent reaction (or more precisely, over-reaction) of the parents of other children in the classroom who would subsequently descend upon the school administrators like a swarm of mad hornets. DrG Very well said. I agree with all of your points. ==================== Wrong. The issue is both safety and liability. You can ignore the safety if that's your belief; you can't ignore the liability. Also, if school administration bans the laser but does not provide teachers with procedures for implementing the ban, it is in the category of unenforceable rules, and unenforceable rules invite disruption in the classroom. If you thought about it for a moment, you would not be so smart @ssed in your response. >What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student >in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer >during a class without authorization from the teacher? I've had this problem. I solved it by forcing students to remove all jackets, placing all bookbags outside my door, seizing all keys (sometimes these pointers are on keychains) placing all purses behind my desk, and moving all likely suspects to the front seats. I also had all pockets checked by an administrator each day. After two days of that, the other kids no longer found it funny and cute, the kid who had it was caught and suspended for 3 days, and life went on. But, if your admin does not have any backbone, just invest in special goggles until you can quit & go elsewhere. JZ ================================================ "The first duty of a society is to defend itself. If that requres torture, so be it. Isreal did not create the circumstances where it became a matter of survival. ARABS did it." -- Mark Probert Sat, 25 Jan 2003 15:47:00 GMT Message-ID: <UjyY9.368945$FT6.71352...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Ah, yes, Alberto Gonzalez...the fellow who wrote the memos supporting torture in Iraq and was accordingly promoted...while those that followed his guidance are in prison for years. Perhaps he will substitute torture for behavior modification. Message-ID: <9euQd.4201$RL4.626@fe11.lga> The fact being overlooked is that the laser light looks like a targeting device. >>What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student >>in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > torture for behavior modification. > Message-ID: <9euQd.4201$RL4.626@fe11.lga> Quite a good point, and appropriate since the school was situated in an urban (-blight) area. Who knows what or who were behind the windows of neighboring multistory buildings. The kids (I imagine) recognized that this possibility could not be entirely discounted, and it no doubt caused some of them considerable amusement ;-). > The fact being overlooked is that the laser light looks like a targeting > device. ... > >What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > >in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of that, the other kids no longer found it funny and cute, the kid who > had it was caught and suspended for 3 days, and life went on. Good solution, thanks. Wonder if the admin powers that were would have gone for this. > But, if your admin does not have any backbone, just invest in special > goggles until you can quit & go elsewhere. The teacher was asked by the director to get control of the class. The teacher responded with a contract. Some students refused to sign unconditionally, resulting in "mediation" by counselors, who then went MIA after the first two-hour contract "negotiation session." The teacher, left stranded and without backup support, then went to plan B (reading the kids a TIMSS summary and then telling them what they could expect even if they did graduate in the global marketplace). That won the teacher a minimal amount of respect to survive until the end of the 30 day tour of duty-- but a class field trip to a major university was postponed indefinitely as collateral damage (viewed as not safe under circumstances by teacher), along with negotations for a more permanent contract betw. the teacher and the school. In googling schools for class rules, I could not find any school that had a formal written process that teachers would use to enforce a laser pointer possession infraction. This makes me wonder. Also, sometimes initiative is welcome and sometimes it isn't (eg, beginning teachers?). Perhaps I shouldn't find it funny that the only active thread on this board deals with this? I'm surprised, really, when I read the responses and the problem and realize that you've all got the same teaching degree (more or less) that I've got. What's the difference between a "rebel" student with a laser pointer and a student who likes to throw spitwads? Or someone who writes on the desks? It doesn't matter what the infraction, the kids are breaking the rules. If an entire class has so little respect for the rules that not a single student will come forward after class and rat out the perpetrator, then either it's the toughest class in the world or the teacher does not fully have control. I teach technology up in NY. We've got lasers in the classroom, and have yet to have a single problem with a kid mishandling it. It's a small laser, too - could quite easily be picked up and played with without anyone really knowing. If Someone were to try this I am 110% positive that I could easily get at least one student in the room to tell me the truth. If nobody comes forward you have grounds to suspect everyone, and all students should face disciplinary action (whatever the school allows). ...and yes, I do have a special ed. mixed with regular ed students, both ED kids and LD kids - it's no different than an honors class, someone will alwys let you know whats happening. I'd consider setting up a video camera inconspicuously somewhere that will allow all of the students to be "caught". Here in NY there are many laws about videotaping students (for the most part you need the parent's permission) - but my state looks differently upon things when you call it a "security camera". Figure out whats going on and make an example of the student. It could easily become a lesson dealing with the "real world ramifications of breaking the law". My 2cents. Sorry if I'm not interpreting your story correctly. Ryan The difference between a laser pointer and a spitwad is that the teacher can't get sued for the latter. I would think. Also I am generally aware that no one technique works for every student or every class, guaranteed. As with any social situation, the results are to some degree unpredictable and variable. Sometimes things don't work despite the best of intentions and applications. Where in NY do you teach? I am aware of a wide variety of environments in NY. (Since you didn't say NYC may one presume upstate?) Also, is the technology class an elective, and would that make a difference? The video camera is an ingenious idea. Again, a potential problem is the school admins and FERPA. (However, it's still a very good idea IMHO. Thanks.) > Perhaps I shouldn't find it funny that the only active thread on this > board deals with this? I'm surprised, really, when I read the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Ryan The student should be disciplined for this behavior. Safety aside, disruption of class is an issue that affects the entire class and the teacher. About safety: I was taking a college course on Lasers and we were taught that all lasers even low watts lasers are dangerous because the lens of the eye further focuses an already coherent light source on the back of the retina. Damage can be caused to the retina and it may not be seen or felt. It is certain that accumulative effects are damaging and this is seen in technicians who adjust lasers and are only exposed to "bounced" light. But if you really want a demonstration of whether it is dangerous or not, shine a laser at a passing helicopter and see what follows! (being sarcastic, this is against the law!) Any school should have a basic disruption policy. The real dangers lie in some student getting pissed off and beating the culprit to a pulp while other pissed off students join in before teachers and swat teams can intervene. Teachers can remove any disruptive device that is not essential for learning during their class. The kid may get tired of going to the principals office to retrieve his toy. Multiple incidents would warrant having the parents come to retrieve it and their disruptive child. There are no legal repercussions as long as the teacher has a zero tolerance policy on laser pointers in the class room. They can just leave them in their lockers or elsewhere. A laser pointer in a bag is not a distraction unless they take it out. There is no legitimate reason for a child of any age to have a laser pointer in school. They don't pose a great harm, but they are very distracting and counter to a productive classroom (unless they are studying lasers in that particular class.) Carl > What procedures should a school follow if an unidentified student > in a classroom disruptively and dangerously uses a laser pointer > during a class without authorization from the teacher? > > TIA... Yeah. The only problem was that the teacher tried but could not identify from where the laser pointer was being used, that is, which student had the laser pointer, since it was hidden (probably being pointed towards the front of the class from under a student's desk, making it easy to conceal). A second hurdle was that it was an urban "second chance" high school and the class was filled with the jailhouse-lawyer variety of students willing and eager to tell the teacher exactly what his legal limitations were (whether or not they were correct), and unwilling to comply with searches of any kind. Some notes: 1. Laser pointers are NOT classified as weapons by police, according to a California on-site HS policeman I spoke with. However, the same policeman told me that laser pointers were mentioned in the California Education Code and so far I have not been able to find that reference. (Note that this implies that the teacher might not get any desired results by calling the police directly on a telephone from the classroom.) 2. Teachers are legally empowered to conduct clothing searches on students, according to the policeman. 3. According to the policeman, it is or should be OK for the teacher to defer clothing searches to school administrative personnel. In this particular case, the teacher would feel endangering his own well being by trying to conduct the searches himself and would have felt better calling a counselor to do that. He did call the counselor but handed over the entire situation to the counselor rather than specifically request that a search be performed (perhaps as a result, the problem did not immediately go away, but repeated once). So for a teacher experiencing this situation, the optimal answer here appears to be-- call school administrative personnel immediately and request a clothing search of all students. Should the administration fail to conduct the clothing search requested, the teacher probably needs to seek work elsewhere, as an early poster suggested, since class discipline problems left unchallenged will generally continue and intensify. In practice, I wonder how often such situations come up where the administration fails to step in and back up the teacher, and if it is often, how practical it is to stay in the teaching profession under such circumstances, since urban classes are often the only classes offered to new (and thus expendable?) teachers. > Any school should have a basic disruption policy. The real dangers lie in > some student getting pissed off and beating the culprit to a pulp while [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > TIA... |
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