Medical Forum / General / Vision / February 2005
Otis:Simple question, Still not answered
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Philip D Izaac - 23 Feb 2005 05:46 GMT Otis the engineer
Such a simple optics question that test the bases of your hypothesis--You should jump at the opportunity to answere it. It must be extremely EMBARASING.
I can only conclude that:-
1) You just can't do the math because you haven't got the concept. 2) You will not answere it because you are aware that the results are not consistent with your hypothesis. If this is the case Otis, then you are not being honest to yourself and those you attempt to sway into your camp.
A true scientist will except challenges, and either throw out or modify the hypothesis. Unfortunately you have not done this.
Instead You resort to discrediting optometrist eg. RM by saying how can you believe an unidentified individual.
Change your attitude Otis.
Now, do your credibility a favour and answere this (Do this now before some other engineer answeres):-
a) A -10.00 diopter myope wearing a pair of spectacles at a vertex distance of 13 mm. b) The same subject as (a) but this time wearing an appropriate contact lens c) An emetrope wearing nothing.
a,b and c are all looking at an object 30 cm. away.
Who needs to use the greatest accomodative effort (a) (b) or (c) Who needs to accomodate the least. Why?
Roland J. Izaac
otisbrown@pa.net - 26 Feb 2005 04:15 GMT Dear Philip,
You conceptual model requires that I accept that the eye is "dead" and that you can assemple the various components into a "box-camera".
The assumption is false -- and the "analysis" however skilled, simply makes it appear that there is some litigtamacy to the box-cameara hypotiesis.
You have jumped to your preferrect conclusion.
The natural eye is proven to be a dynamic system. This control system is "first order".
An entire population of eyes will display a proportionality function of e ^ (-t/Tau).
This is basic engineering "input" versus "output" testing, using a test group of adolescent primates.
This type of testing is not "medical" in character.
This is a matter of sovling the problem of the Gordian Knot" -- and you know how that was done.
But I think the analysis below describes the real problem of "prevention" in terms of the general public.
__________________________
Subject: Pressure on ODs to meet an examination quota.
"...But the emperor has no clothes on.."
Hans C. Anderson
The effort of prevention takes a long-term dedication to the plus lens. You can never explain any of this with a person in 10 minutes. Six per hour seems to be the required "quota" of some organizations.
RM "promices" that this situation will "get better". I do not see how. He should not make promices he can not keep -- assuming he would even want to. Honestly, the "economics" of the situation would prevent him from taking that step.
The reson is that he does not have control of a persons "average visual enviroment". Only the person himself has that type of control.
The reason is simple -- RM has no choice but to meet his quota. The supposed "technical" arguments mean little to RM. The real truth is to examine the "economics" that dirve this situation.
In a way I can not, and do not "blame" RM. He has no choice. Any extensive discussion of prevention with a plus would consume a great deal of time. If the person does not "get the idea", then RM is regarded as a failure.
So what ever else we may say, RM will go back to his office and crank out 48 exams per day.
Given the "insureance" issues described below, I have no doubt that RM will never mention "prevention" to anyone -- and will attack anyone who even SUGGESTS that prevention is possible. Its bad for "business".
So much for promices. You can never "prescribe" prevention at a rate of 240 per week. And I agree, you can not make a living -- promoting true-prevention with the plus.
RM should stop making "artifical" arguments and just admit that he has no choice but to continue the traditional method established 140 years ago. I would respect his honesty on that point.
Best,
Otis
___________________________
Statement by a highly qualified optometrist.
Subject: Six exams per hour.
America's "Worst" Contact Lenses and Eyeglasses recently circulated an interoffice memo stating that 50+ new exams per day1 and 6.25 new patients an hour were the expected norm for an OD with the company.
Ever hear of Eyeglass World? There's a Yahoo Group for them as well and many of the panelists on it set the company ablaze with criticism. A colleague of mine in a small town in Southern Illinois was literally wiped out when a Walmart Vision Center opened 25 miles away from him.
_______________________________
Subject: From Optometry Sucks
Nope! Nonsense! Better check your sources. Last month's Review of Optometry states that last year's net income for Optomtrists nationwide shrank from 120K + to 113 K. My insurance company notified me a couple of months ago that because of rising malpractice claims, certification of advanced training was needed for continuation of my insurance. PLUS, they wanted the malpractice insurance information for the MD to whom I sent most of my referrals. I called them up and asked what was up and they said the rising number of lawsuits against OD's was causing them to reinforce their position. I never have had a claim against me in 25 years and have done 2 DPA courses, 2 TPA courses, 1 anterior segment treatment course and have passed National Boards as well as 8 State Practical Exams.
In the OLD days, each state conducted their own exam. One exam did not suffice for all. And I STILL had to produce documentation that I was a SAFE risk. Insurance Company = Traveler's of Elmira, NY. Call 'em and check. Practice conditions? Interesting point.
America's "Worst" Contact Lenses and Eyeglasses recently circulated an interoffice memo stating that 50+ new exams per day1 and 6.25 new patients an hour were the expected norm for an OD with the company. Ever hear of Eyeglass World? There's a Yahoo Group for them as well and many of the panelists on it set the company ablaze with criticism. A colleague of mine in a small town in Southern Illinois was literally wiped out when a Walmart Vision Center opened 25 miles away from him.
I myself had a private practice on the South Side of Chicago that I had to shutter after 16 years because I was bombarded with 3rd party claims and patients who I lost because I would refuse to join any particularly low paying panel. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I heard "Gee Doctor, I have been coming here for so long and I really like it here but my insurance says I now have to go to Cole Vision ONLY. I'm SO sorry. Goodby!"
To boot I had to have at least one and most times two people who ONLY dealt with submitting claims, getting authorizations, instructing patients what they were and were not eligible for, collecting co-payments, etc. It ended up being a paper nightmare. So sorry to have to inform you of this, but you better look more thoroughly before you get too far into yahooing Optometry. There are LEGIONS of Optometrists who are working 1-5 days per week "commercial" in order to support a sruggling private practice. There are LEGIONS of OD's who work for "companies" who have shuttered their own practices.
Philip D Izaac - 26 Feb 2005 08:31 GMT > Dear Philip, Roland, not Philip
> You conceptual model requires that I > accept that the eye is "dead" and that > you can assemple the various components > into a "box-camera". No, the eye's accomodative system is responding to the visual environment. I am asking you to comment on the extent of this responce and how it differs in the three different situations. We have all heard you say that the minus lens alters the visual environment, this is your opportunity to show us how.
> The assumption is false -- and the "analysis" > however skilled, simply makes it appear > that there is some litigtamacy to the > box-cameara hypotiesis. To me a box camera is a simple camera with no focus-altering capabilities, The eye is able to change its focus, its called accomodation. But thats it, I can understand now that you refuse to answere any questions that may take away the ligitamacy of your plus lens prevention theory.
> You have jumped to your preferrect conclusion. Did I make any conclusions? I simply asked you to do the math and come up with your own conclusions.But the way it appears to me now, is that you do not want to answere because it (".... simply makes it appear that there is some litigtamacy to the box-cameara hypotiesis") Now that is my conclusion.
> The natural eye is proven to be a dynamic > system. This control system is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > proportionality function of > e ^ (-t/Tau). Your imaginary population, yes. In the real world, No, not an entire population.
> This is basic engineering "input" versus > "output" testing, using a test > group of adolescent primates. In engineering if I apply a particular input to a system, I will get a particular output, every time, each one the same as the last. Pinch a child and he may say ouch, pinch him again and he may kick you this time. Keep on pinching him and he may not respond at all as the pain tresshold changes. This is not engineering.
> This type of testing is not "medical" > in character. No I agree, but if you want to gain medical exceptance and have your plus lenses applied medicaly, then you have to have your hypothesis tested to the same high standards as is expected of everyone----you are no different.
> This is a matter of sovling the > problem of the Gordian Knot" -- and you know [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > minutes. Six per hour seems to be the required "quota" of some > organizations. Oh come on Otis. Do you know how much people are willing to pay for prevention. I can set up a practice for the prevention of myopia, see 3 patients a day and still double my income. No insurance companies to bother me. Parents cue up to by tickets to take part in seminars that promise participents that they can throw away their glasses----and they are paying over a thousand each. And if that doesn't work they try out another. Oh boy I can be very rich doing just that. And I can surely charge more because I have the credentials.
> RM "promices" that this situation will "get better". I do > not see how. He should not make promices he can not keep -- > assuming he would even want to. Honestly, the "economics" > of the situation would prevent him from taking that step. Show us proof and RM will keep his promise.
> The reson is that he does not have control of a persons > "average visual enviroment". Only the person himself has that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > real truth is to examine the "economics" that dirve this > situation. There you go again. All eyes go down by......... And now, All Optometrist have a quota. You don't need much to form a conclusion do you
So Otis do answere my questions if you want to come closer to the truth. The truth is out there.
Roland J. Izaac
otisbrown@pa.net - 26 Feb 2005 15:29 GMT Dear Philip,
Subject: The preventive second-opinion and difficulties of implementation.
I go directly to the point. I represent the natural eye as an "entity" as a sophisticated mechanism.
I agree that engineering-scientific concepts can not be reduced to a "magic pill" in 15 minutes.
I also agree that dealing with a largly ignorant or non-motivated public is almost impossible.
The person himself must go through an "educational process" if there is going to be intelligent use of the plus.
I have cited "legal reasons" why you personally can not offer the plus, i.e., mal-practice, insurance.
You can also include the public's rejection of the plus as described by Jacob Raphaelson many years ago.
1. Raphaelson was successful with the plus.
2. The parents did not understand, and so rejected the plus.
3. I am certain the young man got right back into nearsighedness, given the -1/2 diopter per year "down" rate for kids in school.
I do not see how ANY OD could "break" this cycle, until the person (or parents) understand this issue.
Indeed, I would PROMOTE ANY OD WHO WOULD OFFER THIS TYPE OF SUPPORT. But the parents would have to understand these issues -- and THAT TAKES TIME.
It is not clear who has the responsibility here. I think the parents do, if not the child.
But enjoy this pleasant academic discussions about the issue of true-prevention.
In time, I believe that "the public" will learn to accept the necessity of wearing the plus for prevention.
Only AFTER they have that "understanding" could you offer it. For now, I believe that the person himself will have to "take control" because you legally can not -- and the effort is indeed difficult.
_____________________________
WHY ISN'T THE PREVENTATIVE APPROACH OFFERED?
With this type of scientific understanding of the eye's behavior, you would think that the insightful and motivated optometrist or ophthalmologist could introduce a practical and effective method of solution. Dr. Jacob Raphaelson did exactly that in the following example -- with the following result:
THE PRINTER'S SON
"It was the year 1904 that I met a mother at a social lodge meeting. She told me about her son's trouble with his eyes in school. I gave her my card and told her to bring him to my office and I would fit him with a pair of spectacles.
"She said that she had no money at the time and that her husband was a printer working in another city. She did not expect him home for the next six weeks. I told her all this would not matter, that she should bring the boy over and I would fit him with a pair of spectacles. I told her that she could pay for them when her husband returned home.
"She brought the boy in and I examined his eyes. I found that his vision for distance was poor. It was less than 20/40. I made him a pair of plus 1.00 diopter spectacles. She was to pay me when her husband came back home.
"In about six weeks she came back and returned the glasses to me. She stated that her husband was provoked with her for getting the glasses. He had tried the boy's eyes with different prints, far and near, and had found him to have perfect vision with his naked eyes. In fact, she said, the boy could see even better without the glasses than with them.
"I was surprised that the plus lens could produce recovery that quickly. I could hardly believe this story. I persuaded the mother to bring the boy back to let me check to see if he could really see well with his naked eyes. She again brought the boy in and I checked his vision. I found that the father was indeed right. The boy had good eyes, with 20/20 vision and better.
"I was in a dilemma. I did not have the nerve to say anything to the mother. I just let her go. How was I to prove that the boy had poor vision before he received his glasses? And who would believe that vision could be restored by just wearing a pair of plus 1.00 glasses for a few weeks?
"My experience with the printer's son aroused my inborn tendency for exploration. It gave me an incentive to try to do special work on children's eyes and on vision restoration. It also enticed me to investigate myopic (nearsighted) eyes because I was myself nearsighted.
"On the other hand, this experience was a warning to be cautious in doing such work. For selling spectacles to persons who, supposedly, did not need them was almost a crime. And the fitting of glasses without the advice or consent of a medical doctor to unhealthy or diseased eyes, or even to an unhealthy person who might need or be under medical attention, was, and is now, and encroachment on the medical profession.
"To shield myself against possible enmity and involvement, I took the following precautions: First, I quit using the title 'doctor' in any form, in print or verbally. I was to be known as a spectacle fitter and nothing more. Second, I charged a reasonable price for the spectacles I sold but nothing extra for any special work or relief I gave. I did not advertise about this special work. I just did it as a matter of routine whenever or wherever I was given the opportunity.
"Thus in 1904 I became an independent researcher on the relationship of the eye's behavior to spectacles, vision, and health. I have kept it up, and will continue to do this work as long as I continue to have the incentive and capability.
"Who would believe it? Who would believe that by just wearing a pair of plus one (+1.00) glasses for a few weeks, that normal vision to the naked eye could be restored to children whose eyes have a negative focal state? This was true in 1904, and it is also true now, in this decade of 1950." (It continues to be true in this decade of 1990 -- Otis Brown)
SCIENTIFIC VERIFICATION
With such strong recognition that a negative lens has such a profound and adverse effect, you would think that it should be possible to develop scientific verification for this characteristic of the normal eye. You would be correct. The testing and verification is impeccable -- if we restrict our attention to the normal eye's behavior.
BASIC OPTICAL PHYSICS
In order to understand the design and behavior of the normal eye it is necessary to understand its basic optical properties.
When a light ray enters water it is refracted (bent). The equation that describes this bending is shown below. Water has an Index-of-Refraction of 1.33. The normal eye has 1.38 as an over-all Index-of-Refraction. (Figure 1)
SNELL'S LAW OF REFRACTION
Figure 1.
When light travels through a curved surface, the light rays converge on a single point. Since an image is made up of a large number of points of light, an image will form where the light rays converge. (Figure 2)
THE APPROXIMATE REFRACTIVE CHARACTERISTIC OF THE EYE
Figure 2 (from Gullstrand's schematic eye, Reference 1).
The distance between the surface of the lens and the point of image formation is called the focal length.
Focal Power = (Refractive Index) / (Focal Length)
By using this equation it is possible to analyze the basic optical properties of the eye. The approximate dimensions of the eye have been established. The radius of the cornea is 0.66 centimeters, the index of refraction is 1.38, and the length of the eye is 2.4 centimeters. By using these numbers we can calculate the focal power of the normal eye. (For reasons of clarity, I have not included the effect of the internal lens. A more detailed analysis can be found in Reference 1.)
Focal Power = 1.38 / .024 Meters
Focal Power = 57 Diopters
THE NORMAL EYE
The eye has an internal lens which controls the short-term focal state of the eye. The lens is controlled by blur sensed at the surface of the retina. This information is "fed back" to lens position so that sharp focus can be maintained. (Figure 3)
Figure 3.
As objects are moved from distance to near, blur is produced at the retina. In response to this, the lens is thinned or thickened repeatedly under neurological/muscular control, thus maintaining sharp focus on the retina. (Figure 4)
Figure 4.
As we move objects from far to near, the focal change required of the eye increases drastically. Thus the focal change required for an object at 1 yard is 1 diopter. At 20 inches the increase in power is 2 diopters, and at 10 inches the increase is 4 diopters.
The normal eye has a second system which is responsible for controlling its long-term focal state. This system controls both the power (curvature) of the cornea and the relative length of the eye. (Figure 5)
Figure 5.
The normal eye feeds information from the accommodation system to the long- term control system to maintain highly accurate focus. The focal state of the eye is almost a direct replica of its visual environment. By direct experimental means it has been determined that the focal state of the normal eye is equal to its visual environment, offset by about +1.5 diopters.
Whenever the average value of accommodation is shifted by a "delta", the focal status of the normal eye will change, (over a period of months) by the same quantitative amount. This statement has been effectively proven over the last thirty years by thorough experimental techniques. (2)
As the previous discussions have demonstrated, the eye functions as a camera. We should not, however, jump to the conclusion that it is therefore a rigid box camera. It is a sophisticated camera that controls its long-term focus by a "feedback" process. We can use an analog computer to accurately represent this fundamental behavior characteristic of the eye. (Figure 6)
Figure 6.
THIS OPERATIONAL AMPLIFIER WILL ACCURATELY REPRODUCE THE FUNDAMENTAL BEHAVIOR CHARACTERISTIC OF THE NORMAL EYE
The above representation of the normal eye is experimentally valid. When the normal eye is actually tested, it always shows the following two major behavior characteristics. (2)
1. When a strong negative change is made in your visual environment, your normal eyes will change their focal state as shown below. (Figure 7)
Figure 7.
2. The eye will also show a similar response to a strong positive = change in its environment. There is -- and this is important -- a limit to = the amount by which you can change your visual environment in a positive direction. (Figure 8)
Figure 8.
The conclusion, that the eye is dynamic and behaves as expected, has been reached by a number of scientists. Dr. Peter Greene (5), Dr. Antonio Medina (6), and Dr. Josh Wallman (7) have published papers analyzing various aspects of the time-constant behavior of the natural eye.
CONCLUSION
Perhaps the best assessment of the difficulties and opportunities of nearsightedness prevention was made by Chalmers Prentice in 1895. How many more years will it take us to understand and respond intelligently to the wisdom in his words?
It is common and natural to cling to a belief in things and methods that have long been established, and in which leading men and authors concur; and, if the results of such following are universally perfect, more cannot be desired. But, when they fall far short of satisfaction, we are warranted and even impelled to search outside of established authority for the aid that it fails to give; otherwise, science and art would never advance.
REFERENCES
1. Southall, J. P. C., "Introduction to Physiological Optics", Dover Publications, Inc., pp 46, (1937)
2. Schaeffel., F. Glasser, A. Howland, H. C., "Accommodation, Refractive Error and Eye Growth in Chickens", Vision Res., Vol 28, No 5, pp. 639-657 (1988)
3. Raphaelson, J., "A Preventative and Remedy for School-Myopia", Research Foundation for Prevention of Myopia, Inc. pp 60 (1958)
4. Holzman, D., "Trying to Get Myopia Into Focus", Health, pp 52-53, (Feb. 1987)
5. Greene, P. R. & Guyton, D. L., "Time Course of Rhesus Lid-Suture Myopia", Exp. Eye Res., V 42, p. 529-534, (1986)
6. Medina, A. & Fariza, E., "Emmetropization as a First-Order Feedback System", Vis. Res., V. 33, No. 1, p. 21-26, (1993)
7. Wallman, J. Turkel, J., Trachtman, J., "Extreme Myopia Produced by Modest Change in Early Visual Experience", Science, V. 201, p. 1249-1251, (Sept. 1978)
A Lieberman - 26 Feb 2005 19:02 GMT > ophthalmologist could introduce a practical and effective method of > solution. Dr. Jacob Raphaelson did exactly that in the following > example -- with the following result: Otis,
Please provide Dr Raphaelson's credentials. I tried searching, but I couldn't find his name anywhere but on your web pages.
Or is this a made up doctor in your fantasy world????
I ask for unbiased proof, and time after time you fail. So, why shouldn't I expect it again on this request.
Allen
Mike Tyner - 26 Feb 2005 19:15 GMT > 3. I am certain the young man got right back into nearsighedness, > given the -1/2 diopter per year "down" rate for kids in school. I am certain that all school kids do not "go down" at 1/2 dioper per year.
-MT
RM - 27 Feb 2005 01:11 GMT > I go directly to the point. I represent the natural eye as > an "entity" as a sophisticated mechanism. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I have cited "legal reasons" why you personally can not > offer the plus, i.e., mal-practice, insurance. Otis-- people keep asking you to prove the scientific points behind your plus lens prevention theory. People keep asking you questions which point out the falicy of your thought processes. But you never answer. You first ignor everyone, then you try to redirect the discussion to some excuses like "in understand that their are legal reasons" or "I appreciate that the general public is ignorant". One of my favorite excuses that you claim is that we are part of some kind of conspiracy to make people wear glasses.
The point is that you WILL NOT ACCEPT ANY ADVICE FROM ANYBODY. You are convinced, without good reason, that your theory is right and everyone else (with more training and experience than you) is wrong.
retinula@hotmail.com - 27 Feb 2005 03:21 GMT have you how many people- learned and intelligent people- argue against you? feeling alone?
Philip D Izaac - 27 Feb 2005 08:25 GMT > Dear Philip, Again its Roland, not philip.
> Only AFTER they have that "understanding" could you > offer it. For now, I believe that the person himself > will have to "take control" because you legally > can not -- and the effort is indeed difficult. In order for your intelegent "patient" to understand the concept, he may want to ask you a few questions. I supose you will tell him about the change in the visual environment. He may ask---Why is the negative lens so bad, and why does it cause stair-case myopia, is it because it brings the visual environment closer and therefore more accomodative effort is needed, and each time my prescription increases, so does my accomodative effort? how will you answere this "patient"? Will you say thats quite right, and when you become emetropic again, you will find that you will not need to accomodate as much as you would have through your negative lenses.
> As we move objects from far to near, the focal change required of the > eye increases drastically. Thus the focal change required for an object > at 1 yard is 1 diopter. At 20 inches the increase in power is 2 > diopters, and at 10 inches the increase is 4 diopters. Yes it is necessary, to understand the optics of the eye, to know what accomodation is needed in an emetropic eye is good too, but to understand the effects a minus lens has on accomodation is equally important if not more important. So why do you continue to ignore it? As a scientist you cannot ignore facts that may blow your hypothesis apart.
Roland J. Izaac
RM - 27 Feb 2005 03:16 GMT > Your conceptual model requires that I > accept that the eye is "dead" and that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that there is some litigtamacy to the > box-cameara hypotiesis. Noone in this newsgroup has ever said the eye is a box camera Otis, except you. You must think this "box camera" analogy that you keep trying to pin on everyone sounds really cool and powerful.
We KNOW what the eye is about. We have taken real-time measurements of its size, shape, accommodative movements, etc. We have looked at slides of it under a microscope. We have observed it during surgery. What is your training? Where does your experience come from?
> An entire population of eyes will display a > proportionality function of > e ^ (-t/Tau). I see. So all eyes react exactly like this. How simple life must be to some mathematician like yourself to think that you can predict the eye with a simple formula that you derived from 1 study on monkeys! What a simple-mined fool you are.
> In a way I can not, and do not "blame" RM. I feel so much better that you don't blame me Otis!
> He has no choice. > Any extensive discussion of prevention with a plus would consume a > great deal of time. Besides the fact that NOBODY HAS PROVEN THAT IT WORKS. Minus lenses, however, do help myopes see better. If you want us to use plus lenses then prove to the scientific community that it works-- on somebody other that your favorite population segment "pilot engineers who attend a 4 year college and are intelligent".
> So what ever else we may say, RM will go back to his office > and crank out 48 exams per day. You pathetic old fool Otis. You have no concept what you are talking about. Go play some shuffleboard.
> RM should stop making "artifical" arguments and just admit > that he has no choice but to continue the traditional method > established 140 years ago. I would respect his honesty on that I will continue the method that brings benefit to people-- MAKES THEM SEE BETTER. If you can prove to us that you can PREVENT myopia in the first place that would be great. I would really like to offer that service to my patients. I care about them and I want to help them. That's what they pay me for. Just PROVE IT.
> Subject: From Optometry Sucks This newsgroup is certainly a highly credible source of information. How about some quotes from "old.washed-up engineers.who don't have a clue.suxs".
drfrank21@hotmail.com - 26 Feb 2005 20:41 GMT Roland, Otis will never answer your question but will simply continue to obfuscate and divert. A pathetic attempt and bizarre diversion to stating "legions of O.D.'s" and "quotas of patients seen" blather.
Bottom line- Otis has zilch knowledge of physiological optics.
frank
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