Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion Groups
General
GeneralCardiologyVisionDentistryPharmacyLaboratoryNutritionAlternative
Diseases and Disorders
AIDSAlzheimer'sArthritisAsthmaCancerBreast CancerDiabetesEpilepsyGlaucomaHepatitisHerpesLupusProstate BPHProstate CancerProstatitisSinusitisTinnitus

Medical Forum / General / Vision / March 2005

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Whick Lasik System is the newer / better one??

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
jeffjwells@hotmail.com - 15 Feb 2005 21:21 GMT
I'm comparing two eye centers (both with wavefront technology), and for
me it boils down to whichever clinic has the most modern & accurate
equipment.  There is a significant price difference too, but that
doesn't matter to me nearly as much as receiving the best results.

One clinic uses the Allegretto Wave laser, and the other uses the
Bausch & Laum 217.

The promotional material from the Allegretto clinic reports 98% of
patients end up with 20/20 vision or better, while the website for the
B&L clinic says 87.3% have 20/20 or better.

Maybe the 98% figure isn't even realistic??

Any informed opinions are GREATLY appreciated.  No opinions or "well I
went here so this one is the best" posts, please.

Thanks in advance.
Jan - 15 Feb 2005 21:55 GMT
> I'm comparing two eye centers (both with wavefront technology), and for
> me it boils down to whichever clinic has the most modern & accurate
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.

What is your vision acuity corrected at this very moment?
If it is 20/40, you shall never receive 20/20.
BTW, a vision acuity of 20/20 after the surgery is not necessarily the same
comfortable vision as the old 20/20 (corrected) before!

Signature

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

Neither pro, nor anti, LASIK,LASEK,PRK etc......

g.gatti@agora.it - 15 Feb 2005 22:03 GMT
> --
> Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
>
> Neither pro, nor anti, LASIK,LASEK,PRK etc......

Just an idiot that sells glasses.
drfrank21@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2005 00:48 GMT
You must also take into account the skill/experience levels of the
providers
who are doing the procedure. Which clinic is going to do the
better job with pre-op testing and post-op visits (in case something
goes wrong)? Does one clinic have a corneal specialist? Does one
clinic have an assembly line operation versus personalized care?
The laser is only as good as the clinician
IMO (I know you didn't want "opinions").  But I'd be much less
concerned
about the actual lasers used and more concerned about the surgeon
and staff.

frank
g.gatti@agora.it - 17 Feb 2005 08:26 GMT
> IMO (I know you didn't want "opinions").  But I'd be much less
> concerned
> about the actual lasers used and more concerned about the surgeon
> and staff.
>
> frank

LET'S REPHRASE IT:

I'd be much less concerned about the technique, which is always
fallible, but about the actual greed for money of the surgeon and his
business.
Dr. Leukoma - 16 Feb 2005 02:01 GMT
> I'm comparing two eye centers (both with wavefront technology), and for
> me it boils down to whichever clinic has the most modern & accurate
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.

Both are very good.  Flip a coin, or make the decision base upon how
you perceive the doctor and staff.

DrG
g.gatti@agora.it - 17 Feb 2005 08:27 GMT
> Both are very good.  Flip a coin, or make the decision base upon how
> you perceive the doctor and staff.

Now this gives you the value of the SCIENCE these people are selling
here.

Flip a coin, my friend.
You have at least 50% of probability to catch the good fellow!!!
Dom - 16 Feb 2005 11:41 GMT
> I'm comparing two eye centers (both with wavefront technology), and for
> me it boils down to whichever clinic has the most modern & accurate
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.

You don't want any opinions? Then why did you ask the question in the
first place?! If there was one laser that was clearly and objectively
better, then no-one would buy or use the other one.

Anyway, I wouldn't read too much into the figures you quoted... there
are plenty more variables than that simple percentage. You can have
20/20 vision and still be unhappy with your outcome. As other posters
have suggested, the knowledge and experience of the surgeon, the pre and
post-op examinations, your refraction, and your eye's individual healing
qualities (etc) all make a bigger difference than what brand of laser is
used. Go with whoever created the best impression when you went to visit
them.

Dom
g.gatti@agora.it - 17 Feb 2005 08:28 GMT
> You don't want any opinions? Then why did you ask the question in the

> first place?! If there was one laser that was clearly and objectively

> better, then no-one would buy or use the other one.

It is clear that the poor boy is concerned.

It is also perfectly clear that your SCIENCE is fallible.

And very dangerous.

The truth is that these procedures have no scientific nor medical value
at all.
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 16 Feb 2005 16:17 GMT
There are differences between the two laser systems.  Depending upon
your individual circumstances, those differences may be important or
without cause for concern.

If the Bausch & Lomb Technolas 217 is the 217z or Zyoptix system, it
uses a customized wavefront evaluation system to determine both low
order aberrations and higher order aberrations.  This information is
then used to create an ablation profile that is determined to a great
degree by your own individual eyes.  This is called "customized
wavefront".

If you are in the United States, the WaveLight Allegretto also has
utilized wavefront data, but in a different way.  Rather than taking
an evaluation of your individual eyes, Allegretto used wavefront data
in the lab to create an ablation profile that is optimized to provide
the best overall results.  This is called "wavefront optimized".

If your refractive error is low and if your higher order aberrations
are moderate, either laser will probably provide the same result
(assuming that all else is equal between the surgeons).  If you have
unusual higher order aberrations it may be that only the Zyoptix will
be appropriate or even that you should not have any surgery at all.
The only way to know is to have a wavefront evaluation.

We have a detailed article on this situation at
http://www.usaeyes.org/faq/subjects/wavefront_custom_lasik.htm that
you should read.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.
Robert Martellaro - 16 Feb 2005 17:37 GMT
>I'm comparing two eye centers (both with wavefront technology), and for
>me it boils down to whichever clinic has the most modern & accurate
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Maybe the 98% figure isn't even realistic??

Jeff,

That's probably with glasses or contacts. Uncorrected visual acuity of 20/40 or
better is probably 98%. Cosmetic surgeons employ extremely clever marketing
agencies to open your wallet. Abundans cautela non nocet ___There is no harm
done by great caution.

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/PDF2/P020050b.pdf

You can find information on other FDA approved lasers along with other important
information here...

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/risks.htm

Hope this helps



Robert Martellaro
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Optician/Owner
Roberts Optical
robopt@execpc.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If a million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."
-  Anatole France
g.gatti@agora.it - 17 Feb 2005 08:30 GMT
Surgeons that employ extremely clever marketing???

You told me that the only bufoon who wants to cheat clients by selling
old books was me.

Now I see of course I am really an amateur making no harm.

The real criminals are your own peers.
xiamardle - 19 Feb 2005 20:17 GMT
> One clinic uses the Allegretto Wave laser, and the other uses the
> Bausch & Laum 217.

Make sure they use the new "Allegretto Wave Eye-Q" and not the "Allegretto wave"
jeffjwells@hotmail.com - 27 Feb 2005 19:47 GMT
Thank you very much to those who took the time to give thoughtful
responses.

Sorry for taking so long to follow-up to this topic, but I've been out
of the country for about a week (skiing in Whistler) and realizing just
how desperately I need this surgery!

The two clinics I'm comparing are www.texaslasik.com  and
www.lasikmd.ca.

My contact lens prescription reads:

8.4/14.4  -0.75  -1.75 x180   (Right Eye)
8.4/14.4  -0.50  -1.75 x180   (Left Eye)

I don't know if this says anything about my refractive error or my
astigmatism or what.

Mr. Hagele, is customized wavefront supposed to be better than
optimised, or (more likely) I assume it depends on the individual?

I've had my initial consult done at the Alegretto Wave clinic and I'm
supposed to be a great candidate for the procedure.

The Alegretto Wave (at TexasLasik) doesn't say online that it is Eye-Q.

Again, thanks for the all the feedback and I appreciate any further
info.

Regards,

Jeff
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 27 Feb 2005 21:56 GMT
I have a friend who lives in Whistler and enjoys it very much.

In your case the good news of your prescription does not exactly
outweigh the bad news.  The good news is that you have very little
myopia (nearsighted, shortsighted).  The bad news is that you have
very high astigmatism.

Some laser systems automatically correct myopia when you correct
astigmatism.  The ratio is about .25 diopters of myopic correction for
every 1.00 diopter of myopia.  That means that you are just within the
boundaries that would make a good correction possible.

Some laser systems reduce the narrow width of the ablation zone to
correct astigmatism.  Depending upon the size of your pupils, this may
be a very big concern.  See
http://www.usaeyes.org/faq/subjects/lasik_pupil_size.htm

As great as the wavefront-guided systems are, in my opinion they are a
bit limited in situations like yours.  I personally believe that a
wavefront customized topographical driven ablation may provide a
higher probability of getting a good outcome.  There are many who
would argue with this, but a low myope high astigmat normally has more
topographical problems than high order aberration problems.  In the
unique circumstances you describe, I think you should investigate the
Allegretto very closely.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.
jeffjwells@hotmail.com - 03 Mar 2005 21:06 GMT
Thanks again, Glenn.

I read the article you referred on pupil size.  It was very informative
but I don't believe it dealt with astigmatism?

I just got a little confused by your last post, as you had said that
the customized lasik could produce the better results in my case, but
then said I should investigate the Alegretto (optimised lasik) further.
Maybe I just didn't follow what you were saying.

I really appreciate your postings though - all the info is definitely a
huge help.

Jeff
Glenn - USAEyes.org - 04 Mar 2005 01:17 GMT
Your prescription has very high astigmatism with low myopia.  This is
a more difficult correction with any technology.  I don't see current
studies that show a wavefront-guided ablation in this kind of
situation to be better than topography-guided ablation.  Since the
majority of your refractive error is topography related (astigmatism),
the Allegretto seems to be a good choice.

Astigmatism is an "deformity" of the cornea at the periphery.  Any
time the pupil gets large, light passing through the astigmatic
portion of the cornea gets past the pupil and is "seen" by the retina.
Pupil size is critical with high astigmatism.

Glenn Hagele
Executive Director
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance

Email to glenn dot hagele at usaeyes dot org

http://www.USAEyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.