Contact lenses - what's the manufacturing tolerance?

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Tim Riglar - 12 Feb 2005 19:56 GMT

What would the manufacturing tolerance be on a soft aspheric -7.5D contact
lens?

The background:

For the last six months, I've been using monthly disposables, and have had
really good corrected vision in my left eye (the right's another story).
Went for my six month check up, and there was no change to the left eye
prescription, so another batch of lenses were ordered. I put one in -
awful - I estimate it was at least 0.5 weak. Tried a second, exactly the
same. Optician orders a second batch - same result. Back to optician, she
confirms original prescription, orders another batch (but observes that the
two "bad" sets were from the same manufacturing batch). Got the new lenses,
and they're OK, but only OK, and as soon as it gets dark, the acuity falls
off, which I know is a sign that they are giving me borderline correction.

I note that, above -6, the lenses are only available in 0.5D steps, so what
is happening here? Are the lenses actually likely to be anywhere from -7.25
to -7.75, and the "good" set was nearer the high end of this range, the
"bad" set were at the low end, and now I have something in the middle? If so
it all seems very hit and miss. What's the point of the optician measuring
to 0.25D if its a lottery what I get to wear?

It's really disappointing that I *know* there are lenses out there which can
give me excellent vision, but I have no way of making sure that I can
actually get them - or have I missed something?

Tim

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The Real Bev - 13 Feb 2005 06:16 GMT

> What would the manufacturing tolerance be on a soft aspheric -7.5D contact
> lens?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> give me excellent vision, but I have no way of making sure that I can
> actually get them - or have I missed something?

I have the same problem myself, but the farsighted and astigmatic
variety. All members of a 6-pack (same lot number) are different,
requiring the replacement of 8 of 12 lenses. The optician tried to talk
to the distributor, who apparently blew him off. I emailed Coopervision
customer service twice with no result, and snail-mailed the president of
the company, likewise with no result. The best of the lenses would be
fine, but there's no guarantee that I can ever get any more and the
optician/distributor/company is unwilling to replace any more bad/wrong
lenses. I've been wearing the few good 1-month daily-wear lenses for 4
months, but I figure I should probably go somewhere else for a new
fitting pretty soon.

I will never again buy Cooper lenses of any sort and if I knew a
competent gypsy I'd have a curse put on the company.

Signature

Cheers, Bev
=========================================================
"I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
Our job is to arrange the meeting."
- Norman Schwartzkopf

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Tim Riglar - 13 Feb 2005 08:19 GMT

>> What would the manufacturing tolerance be on a soft aspheric -7.5D
>> contact
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> For the last six months, I've been using monthly disposables,

--> SNIP

> I have the same problem myself, but the farsighted and astigmatic
> variety. All members of a 6-pack (same lot number) are different,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I will never again buy Cooper lenses of any sort and if I knew a
> competent gypsy I'd have a curse put on the company.

I forgot to mention that mine were from Coopervision. They didn't reply to
my e-mail here in the UK, either. I think I'm starting to get the picture!

Tim

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The Real Bev - 14 Feb 2005 00:27 GMT

> "The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> > The best of the lenses would be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I forgot to mention that mine were from Coopervision. They didn't reply to
> my e-mail here in the UK, either. I think I'm starting to get the picture!

Interesting. Has anybody else here had similar experiences with Cooper
or a different CL company? Any lawyers here?

Signature

Cheers, Bev
=========================================================
"I believe that forgiving [terrorists] is God's function.
Our job is to arrange the meeting."
- Norman Schwartzkopf

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drfrank21@hotmail.com - 14 Feb 2005 03:06 GMT

> > "The Real Bev" <bashley@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
> > > The best of the lenses would be
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> --
> Cheers, Bev

I fit a lot of Cooper vision lenses and find their product lines, in
general, very good and comparable to other companies in quality
control. I think many times people blame problems relating
to their vision to "wrong" or "bad" contact lenses when it might/can be
something else. I had a case where a patient claimed that the entire
multipack (every single lens) was "bad"- when I had him try the lens
in the fellow eye (his rx was pretty similar in each eye), the
"bad" lens became perfect. It turned out he had some corneal edema.
This isn't to say that there are never any "bad" lenses that make
it to packaging but the q.a. measures are pretty thorough for
all the major companies.

frank

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RM - 14 Feb 2005 14:40 GMT

I agree. I think CooperVision is actually better than average with product
quality and reproducibility.

Toric lenses can fit differently based upon subtle differences in tear
volume, etc. IMHO these kind of physiological differences from day to day
are many times blamed on lens quality problems.

RM

===========

> I fit a lot of Cooper vision lenses and find their product lines, in
> general, very good and comparable to other companies in quality
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> frank

Reply to this Message

The Real Bev - 15 Feb 2005 00:38 GMT

> I agree. I think CooperVision is actually better than average with product
> quality and reproducibility.
>
> Toric lenses can fit differently based upon subtle differences in tear
> volume, etc. IMHO these kind of physiological differences from day to day
> are many times blamed on lens quality problems.

That all sounds very reasonable, except for the fact that 2 of the
lenses in the right-eye six-pack were OK and some of the replacement
lenses were also bad. Moreover, each lens fits pretty much the same way
all day every day I wear it. I tried some of the marginal ones (vision
was better with than without) for several days before deciding that
having to put up with 20/60 vision is NOT acceptable. Yeah, I can see
the car ahead of me on the freeway. No, I can't read the freeway sign
until it's almost directly overhead. Right now the best lenses are one
line worse than my glasses, but I could live with that -- providing I
don't have to buy a dozen lenses in order to get 4 "good" ones.

> > I fit a lot of Cooper vision lenses and find their product lines, in
> > general, very good and comparable to other companies in quality
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > in the fellow eye (his rx was pretty similar in each eye), the
> > "bad" lens became perfect.

There's a 2D difference between my eyes. If I switch the lenses I can
read with my right eye, but see pretty much nothing clearly with my left
eye.

Cooper Frequency 55 Toric (methafilcon B)
(1) 8.7 / 14.4
R +3.50 -1.75x100 lot 1625-217 exp 2009-03
L +5.25 -1.75x80 lot 1614-217 exp 2009-02

These were the trial lenses, the best of the 5 or 6 different sets
tried. The six-pack order was, of course, a different lot number

> > It turned out he had some corneal edema.
> > This isn't to say that there are never any "bad" lenses that make
> > it to packaging but the q.a. measures are pretty thorough for
> > all the major companies.

Any explanation for Cooper not even acknowledging any of our emails or
letters? I put it down to chickenshittedness, myself.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
---------------------------------------------------------
If I know that chaining yourself to a dead cow is stupid,
how come Carly makes so much more money than I do?

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drfrank21@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2005 00:38 GMT

> Cooper Frequency 55 Toric (methafilcon B)
> (1) 8.7 / 14.4
> R +3.50 -1.75x100 lot 1625-217 exp 2009-03
> L +5.25 -1.75x80 lot 1614-217 exp 2009-02

Your prescription (combination of your hyperopia and astig)can be one
of the toughest to fit with satisfactory results with contact lenses
(whether a cooper product or any other other company). I tend to see
more patients in my chair for refits ( who have seen other
providers)with this type of rx than most other rx combinations.

> These were the trial lenses, the best of the 5 or 6 different sets
> tried. The six-pack order was, of course, a different lot number
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Cheers,
> Bev

I'm not sure any company in this field has a good network in place
to respond to correspondence from private individuals- better
bet would be to have your provider talk to his/her rep about
your concerns/problems. I don't think it's "chickenshittedness"
but rather that your correspondence never reached the proper
people in the organization.

frank

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The Real Bev - 16 Feb 2005 01:06 GMT

> > Cooper Frequency 55 Toric (methafilcon B)
> > (1) 8.7 / 14.4
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> but rather that your correspondence never reached the proper
> people in the organization.

The optician said "they" wouldn't talk to him either. I don't think I can
force him to carry it any further. Moreover, I think that with all the
fitting he did he probably didn't make a cent on me, although I never saw
an actual line in his office; I guess he could have gone skiing if I
hadn't
gone in that day, and that's a cost of a sort.

I sent three emails to the customer service facility at the website and
one snail-mail including a printout of the last email to the president
of the company, whose name I looked up from (I think) their corporate
10K form.

http://www.coopervision.com/us/patient_aboutus_contactus.asp which offers:
"To contact CooperVision via email, click here: info@coopervision.com."
There is a separate link for the "practitioner site" which, not being a
practitioner, I did not investigate.

Standard advice is to ALWAYS send complaints to the president; even
if he doesn't read it at least SOME functionary will pass it on to the
appropriate department.

Sorry, if they provide a 'contact us' link I think they're obligated to
follow up on it; anything else is chickenshit.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev

Subscribe today to "Fire in the Hole - the Quarterly Journal
for Incinerator Toilet Enthusiasts" -- Andrew

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drfrank21@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2005 05:28 GMT

> The optician said "they" wouldn't talk to him either. I don't think I can
> force him to carry it any further. Moreover, I think that with all the
> fitting he did he probably didn't make a cent on me, although I never saw
> an actual line in his office; I guess he could have gone skiing if I

> hadn't
> gone in that day, and that's a cost of a sort.
>
> I sent three emails to the customer service facility at the website and
> one snail-mail including a printout of the last email to the president
> of the company, whose name I looked up from (I think) their corporate

> 10K form.
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Cheers,
> Bev

Bev, I guess I'm missing something here. What exactly did you
want to accomplish (or your optician) by talking to the coopervision
people? Did you want a refund, express your concern(s) about their
quality assurance or...?

I just find it odd that the cooper rep "wouldn't talk" to your optician
(you must be in a state, if in the U.S., that allows opticians to fit
cl's).
Reps are usually very responsive to their account holders (ie,
providers)-
their livlihood depends on keeping their business. I have never been
rebuffed by a rep in expressing a concern or comment regarding
their service (usually a turn-around issue) or product.

I know this probably didn't help you any- don't know what else to say.
It would be interesting if your "fitter" tried another toric
brand/design
to see if you had the same results. And it's all part of the business
of
extra chair time and trial lenses for certain "hard-to-fit" patients.

frank

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The Real Bev - 16 Feb 2005 22:29 GMT

> > The optician said "they" wouldn't talk to him either. I don't

think > > I can

> > force him to carry it any further. Moreover, I think that with all
> > the
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> people? Did you want a refund, express your concern(s) about their
> quality assurance or...?

I don't want a refund. I agreed to pay what I paid and that's that.
What I DO feel cheated about is that I can't re-order the same lenses
without being assured that if any of the new ones are unwearable I can
get free replacements. So my $450 investment (which would include only
6 months worth of lenses if I followed the 1-month guideline) is now
completely valueless and I have to find a different optometrist/
whatever, go through another fitting process, etc. I'd be willing to
keep buying the lenses I have if I knew I could use all of them instead
of 20% of them.

> I just find it odd that the cooper rep "wouldn't talk" to your ptician
> (you must be in a state, if in the U.S., that allows opticians to fit
> cl's).

Yes. He's a licensed contact fitter and listed by Cooper as an
authorized fitter.

> Reps are usually very responsive to their account holders (ie,
> providers)-
> their livlihood depends on keeping their business. I have never been
> rebuffed by a rep in expressing a concern or comment regarding
> their service (usually a turn-around issue) or product.

The fitter said he'd never seen anything like it, which probably means
that he thinks I'm lying and stockpiling lenses because of my known
disinclination to spend money.

If he doesn't believe that, maybe the rep believes that either I or the
fitter is trying to rip him off. The fitter may be unwilling to pursue
it any further. In any case, my only recourse is to go to the company
and see if they can provide some sort of warranty service -- I send back
the bad one, they send me a new one. They're obviously not interested
in that, so I'm hosed. I guess I could sue the fitter, but I really
don't think it's his problem.

> I know this probably didn't help you any- don't know what else to say.
> It would be interesting if your "fitter" tried another toric
> brand/design
> to see if you had the same results. And it's all part of the business
> of
> extra chair time and trial lenses for certain "hard-to-fit" patients.

Next time I'm going to go to the full-service people. I don't know if
it will work out any better, but it involves one less middleman.

Signature

Cheers,
Bev
*********************************************************
Warning: Objects in mirror appear smarter than they are.

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Ken - 16 Feb 2005 21:48 GMT

If you get really upset, contact the FDA. They are ultimately responsible
for regulating this area. Be sure this is a medical issue before making
contact.

> > > Cooper Frequency 55 Toric (methafilcon B)
> > > (1) 8.7 / 14.4
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
> Subscribe today to "Fire in the Hole - the Quarterly Journal
> for Incinerator Toilet Enthusiasts" -- Andrew

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