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Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2005

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Response for Nipidoc -- on prevention

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otisbrown@pa.net - 21 Dec 2004 18:58 GMT
Nipdoc.txt

Dear Nipidoc,

I have sent your request to Herb's email address.

It remains for him to respond.

Herb stated "plus references" and asked if I wished for a
copy.

Herb stated that I could post his name -- but not his email
address.  Herb simply stated the "second opinion" that is
experessed by ODs in behaviorial optometry.  You should know this
-- of course.  You don't like the idea, but that does not make it
"wrong" now does it?

I have no idea where Herb is located.  Given you profound
hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for
declining to respond.

Further:

Mip > When can we expect Dr.  Herb Blacks list of references that
show that the use of plus lenses prevents the development of
myopia in patients who have not worn minus lenses??

Otis> Since I do not have Herb's referencese I can not speculate
what they contain.

Mip > I have also not been able to find any mention of a Herb
Black, OD on google.  I have only found one listing for a
Dr.  Herbert Black who works at the Target Optical in
Littleton Colorado on the AOA website.  Is this the "Dr.
Herb Black" with whom you are corresponding??

Otis> I do not know.  The discussion was posted on i-see, and then
Herb expressed support of Dr.  Steve Leung who is currently
in Hong Kong -- who supports the concept of prevention
with the plus.

www.chinamyopia.org

Otis> My personal interest was more in protecting my immediate
relatives -- so that they could understand the choice that
was available to them.  It is certainly true that a great
many people will reject the "plus" when it must be used for
prevention.  I have never argued that point.  In this I was
lead by the remarks of Dr.  Jacob Raphaelson, who was clear
on the need to make a decision FOR PEVENTION by the person
concerned with the issue.  Further discussions with Dr.
Ludlam lead to the same conclusion.  Professor Theodore
Grosvenor make essentially the same comment.  But the REAL
ISSUE is how an optometrist (who is the parent of a child)
deals with his own child.  That is indeed a PERSONAL issue.
As such each optometrist will have to make this decision for
his own child.  If there is to be "fundamental change" then
that is how I believe it can "start".

Otis> Obviously my recommendation to my sister's children was to
have them undertand "The Printer's Son", and the parent's
rejection of Dr.    Raphaelson's advocacy.  They took the
advocacy of Dr.  Colgate seriously, and wore as strong plus
whenever they sat down to read.  I personally consider this
action to be based on THEIR understanding of what they
wanted in their life.  They understood the consequences of
NOT using the plus (in school) since the "down" rate is -1/2
diopter per year when no "protection" is used.  It takes a
wise person to look at this situation and take it seriously
-- that is to "correctly" use the plus and pass all legal VA
requirements -- which is what they did.

Otis> Given the intensity of commitment that this work requires, I
obviously understand that you can never "prescribe"
prevention -- because you can never "prescribe" the
motivation and supporting "insight" required to carry out
this work successfully -- as they did.

Otis> As for your remarks -- I will forward them to Herb.  I look
for the day when we "the public" will be able to work with
professionals like Dr.  Herb and Steve Leung OD, to achieve
a better solution by effective prevention.  But as long as
Jan says that the concept of "prevention" with the plus
"must be destroyed", then I must factor this it to what I
think about you.    Until you distance youself from "Jan-OD",
then I think that my recommendaton to my sister's children
was correct.  They had no choice but to do it themselves --
under their own control -- because you are profoundly
hostile to the concept of prevention with the plus.  You
leave a person no choice in this matter, other than that
they learn to do it themselves under their own control.

Best,

Otis Engineer

cc:  Herb Black, Steve Leung, Alfred, Donald Rehm, and the young
men working to clear -- and keep their distant vision clear
with the plus for the next seven years while in high school
and college.

nipidoc
- 21 Dec 2004 20:01 GMT
> I have sent your request to Herb's email address.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for
> declining to respond.

Quite different from an earlier posting you placed here Otis.
You did post this:
"I noticed in your last email about the dispute with those
stone-headed ODs.  I have been preparing my records to show the
board an evidence of science of my work.  I hope the data would be
of a help for your agrument with those stone-heads.'

Sincerely,

Steve''

It is your thumb Otis, must be a big one.
As usual when it comes to proof you beat the retreat Otis.
Signature

Free to  Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"

I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be
destroyed.

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

nipidoc - 22 Dec 2004 02:13 GMT
I look forward to Dr. Herbs references that state that plus lenses
prevent the development of myopia.

And you are wrong.  I LOVE the idea expressed by ODs in behavioral
optometry.  I wish it were true.  But the fact remains that the
overwhelming evidence suggests that the use of plus lenses does not
stop the onset of myopia nor does the use of plus lenses slow the
development of myopia.

When I was a student, I spent a 10 week rotation working with an
instructor that was VERY behaviorally oriented in his private practice
and used plus lenses as a form of myopia control very liberally.  He
had just as many myopes as patients as did the ophthalmology practice
that I did another rotation at.  When parents of children returned and
found out that they HAD developed myopia inspite of the use of plus
lenses and asked why the plus lenses didn't work, his response was
always that they DID work.  He always said that had the child NOT used
the plus lenses, that they would have developed even MORE myopia than
they did.

Do Drs Black and Leung have less myopes in their offices than other ODs
who practice nearby, or at least have myopes who on average have LESS
myopia?  I would bet $100 that they don't.

nipidoc

> Nipdoc.txt
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> -- of course.  You don't like the idea, but that does not make it
> "wrong" now does it?
otisbrown@pa.net - 03 Jan 2005 16:39 GMT
Dear Nipidoc,
Subject:  No response from Herb Black OD

I have requested the references alluded to by
Herb Black.

What I would suggest it that you read
Steve Leung's site:

www.chinamyopia.org

for the second opinion, that, a negative
refractive state for the eye could be
completely prevented -- if the
plus were forcefully used at
the threshold.

Obviously THAT type of solution
will require intensive efforts by the
person himself.

Sorry, I can not provide the references
suggested by Herb Black.

I would suggest the 50 some papers
written by Dr. Francis Young on the
subject of the natural eye's ability
to change its refractive status
as its visual environment to understand
this natural, or designed-in behavior.

Best,

Otis
Engineer
Mike Tyner - 03 Jan 2005 19:33 GMT
> What I would suggest it that you read
> Steve Leung's site:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> plus were forcefully used at
> the threshold.

Thanks, but as we've told you, opinions aren't worth much without evidence.

We were hoping for new citations.

> I would suggest the 50 some papers
> written by Dr. Francis Young on the
> subject of the natural eye's ability
> to change its refractive status
> as its visual environment to understand
> this natural, or designed-in behavior.

So has Dr. Young succeeded at preventing or reversing myopia? We're hoping
to find someone who has.

-MT
RM - 04 Jan 2005 02:10 GMT
An belief without any supporting evidence is called "bias".
A Lieberman - 04 Jan 2005 02:22 GMT
> Sorry, I can not provide the references
> suggested by Herb Black.

Hmmm, why not Otis.  Is it because Herb Black is a made up name?

Allen
Dr Judy - 04 Jan 2005 18:31 GMT
> Dear Nipidoc,
> Subject:  No response from Herb Black OD
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> plus were forcefully used at
> the threshold.

Here some information about Steve Leung provided by Otis to the i-see Yahoo
group.  I wonder why is hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under
investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes?

     "From:  "Otis S. Brown" <otisbrown@p...>
     Date:  Mon Dec 27, 2004  4:58 pm
     Subject:  Remarks by Sam Wong on preventive methods

     Dear Friends,

     Dr. Steve Leung -- who advocates prevention with
     the plus -- is being called before a "Board of Optometry",
     who is going to try to "shut him up", or
     "shut him down"."

     Dr Judy
Mike Tyner - 04 Jan 2005 19:09 GMT
> I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under
> investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes?

To Otis, it only proves the widespread nature of the conspiracy. :)

-MT
Philip D Izaac - 05 Jan 2005 06:25 GMT
> > I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under
> > investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes?

Is this true? Where did you here this from, Can you point me to where I
could find this.

Many thanks, I always enjoy your posts.

Roland J. Izaac

> To Otis, it only proves the widespread nature of the conspiracy. :)
>
> -MT
Dr Judy - 06 Jan 2005 18:04 GMT
>> > I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under
>> > investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes?
>
> Is this true? Where did you here this from, Can you point me to where I
> could find this.

Otis himself says so on the yahoo i-see forum, and if Otis says it, it must
be true!

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/i-see/message/9471

I tried to find something on the Hong Kong Optometrists site, but could not
find a Steve Leung listed.  Most licensing bodies would not post info about
ongoing charges, only about completed cases andyway

Dr Judy

> Many thanks, I always enjoy your posts.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> -MT
A Lieberman - 22 Dec 2004 02:55 GMT
> Herb stated that I could post his name -- but not his email
> address.  Herb simply stated the "second opinion" that is
> experessed by ODs in behaviorial optometry.  You should know this
> -- of course.  You don't like the idea, but that does not make it
> "wrong" now does it?

Dear Prevention friends.

Otis makes names up.  We now have a new name called Herb.

> I have no idea where Herb is located.  Given you profound
> hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for
> declining to respond.

As you can see, Otis does not know where Herb is located which brings up
the question, is Herb real???

You be the judge.

Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Dec 2004 03:42 GMT
Dear Allen,

Do we have proof that Allen Liberman exists?

We don't know who RM is.

Apparently the only OD who will offere a DISCUSSION
of the potention of prevention to people at the threshold
(-3/4 dipoter 20/50) is Steve, who maintains a site:

www.chinamyopia.org

As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his
is right to privacy -- to avoid being
hasselled by the likes of Jan-OD (must be destroyed),
and others.

I have posted your remarks to him.  If I were him
I would just say "Jeeze", the hell with it.
But as always, that is his choice.

Best,

Otis

cc Steve Leung
Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 05:58 GMT
> Apparently the only OD who will offere a DISCUSSION
> of the potention of prevention to people at the threshold
> (-3/4 dipoter 20/50) is Steve, who maintains a site:

We will be happy to discuss prevention as soon as you (or Steve, or Herb, or
anybody else) produce some credible evidence that a group of anatomical
myopes practicing prevention did any better than a similar group who didn't.

Likewise, we will be happy to discuss staircase myopia as soon as you
produce some credible evidence that a group of anatomical myopes wearing
neutralizing correction got more nearsighted than a similar group who
didn't.

Until then, web sites and fringe opinions don't meet the criteria necessary
to change the standards of practice for 30,000 optometrists and 10,000
ophthalmologists. Sorry.

So sing us your refrain again... all together now...

I'm Otis and I'm here to say
Prevention is the only way.
The books are wrong, the doctors err,
It's only engineers who care.

I don't know what's inside the eye
But I know how to stop the my-
Opia that strikes one in three:
It's all in wearing plus, you see.

To keep the eyes from going down
No matter whether blue or brown
Takes effort and intelligence
And spectacular abstinence.

You must be faithful with the plus.
You must adhere, you must discuss,
You must rehearse, and memorize
The Snellen chart to save your eyes.

Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind
In near environments confined.
No matter that he didn't fix
Myopia with his bag of tricks.

Because his monkeys' eyes went down
You must submit, and fool around
With lenses that can trick the eye
To think nearpoint infinity.

For as we know, all natural eyes
Respond to near by changing size.
All pilots grow myopic when
They crack a book and hold a pen.

T. Grosvenor thought to intervene
And used the plus in my routine,
And though he did stay on the fence,
His study showed "no difference".

And Parsinnen three groups displayed
To see the difference glasses made.
Imagine his surprise to find
That uncorrected eyes declined!

No matter, I am just as sure
My mind's made up, my motives pure.
You doctors all conspire to keep
My methods on the rubbish heap.

So one day you'll be proven wrong,
And until then, I'll beat my gong:
The natural eye was never meant
To focus where attention went.

Copyright (c) 2004
Mike Tyner, OD
RM - 22 Dec 2004 11:55 GMT
Very nice!
Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc!

> So sing us your refrain again... all together now...
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> Copyright (c) 2004
> Mike Tyner, OD
Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 14:09 GMT
> Very nice!
> Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc!

Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :)

-MT
LarryDoc - 22 Dec 2004 21:37 GMT
> > Very nice!
> > Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc!
>
> Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :)
>
> -MT

Which one, poet or eye doc?

-LB
Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 22:08 GMT
>> MT: Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :)
>
> Which one, poet or eye doc?

Either one.. being an eye doc is easier. :)

-MT
RM - 22 Dec 2004 11:53 GMT
> We don't know who RM is.
>
> As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his
> is right to privacy

> Otis

---------------------

I claim the same right to privacy as Dr. Herb does.  There are kooks out
their like you and your italian friend Rishi that I prefer to be shielded
from.

However, I  do have a sense of concern for innocent laypersons who come to
this newsgroup seeking real advise about vision problems.

Don't dodge the questions AGAIN Otis.  Please answer them if you want some
credibility from the eye docs here.

1.  Please enlighten us on some of the "great deal of direct scientific
experimental data" that shows that minus lenses are not safe.  Those are
your exact words-- tell us what the evidence is.

2.  What are the "facts" that prove that plus lens treatment prevents myopia
in
"the entire population of adolescent natural eyes" as you have stated
previously.  Those are your exact words-- tell us what the facts are.

3.  Please provide some of the "objective scientific facts that the natural
eyes 'goes down'
when you place a minus lens on it".  Those are your exact words.  Please
show the data.  And I don't mean your equation
derived from a primate study where the animals were drastically overminused.
Where is the proof that when you provide just enough minus lens power on the
human eye to focus the image on the retina that it causes the eye to "go
down".

4.  Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and are
therefore walking around with net plus power on their eye 24/7 DO NOT become
less myopic. This is optically equivalent to wearing plus lenses all the
time. Why is it that they don't revert to emmetropia? Why is it that they
oftentimes become even more myopic?  Optometrists have these types of
adolescent patients all the time.

5.  Why is it that young hyperopes, who very frequently do not wear their
plus lens corrections, continue to maintain their hyperopia?  They are in
fact internally compensating for their hyperopia by accommodation.  This is
the same as being overminused 24/7.  Why don't their eyes "go down" (your
"scientific" terminology) and become more myopic (meaning less hyperopic)?
Why is it that when you check them years later they are just as hyperopic as
before, and when they approach age 40 they actually manifest even more
hyperopia than before?

Yours anonymously,
RM OD PhD
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Dec 2004 18:01 GMT
Dear Prevention minded friends,

Here are some remarks on prevention -- to a prevention minded
optometrist.

As always, please enjoy these pleasant discussions about
scientific truth and experimental reality.

Best,

Otis

______

To:  Steve Leung OD

Dear Steve,

Subject:  Some "behaviorial optometry" comments
and two poems on the subject.

Please enjoy the following.  Remember, even after 100 years,
the only person that you can truly help is your own child --
because you have "control" over your child.  Your daughter will
learn from you -- as most people never will.

While I can determine the exact behavior of the natural eye,
and prove the relationship between the natural eye and its average
visual environment, I can NEVER deal with the great mass of people
walking in off the street.  Thus Raphaelson was right -- you might
wish to help, but the parents will always "explode" if you suggest
the use of the plus -- and they do not understand the "reasons
why".

Just your knowledge of these issues is wonderful -- even if
there is nothing you can do about it.  I don't want you to put
youself "at risk" for my "advocacy".  I am willing to sacrifice a
great deal of myself for this "cause", but ultimately it is the
man who "thinks for himself" who ultimately prevents the
development of nearsighedness in himself.

Best,

Otis

%%%%%%%%%%%%

Dear Mike T.,

Cute poem, Mike.  I did not know that your are both a poet
and a "rapper".

I am not good a "rapping", but I will post this poem in
response -- with the idea that many a truth is said in jest.

The following poem is dedicated to you and your use of the
minus lens, and to the welfare of those brave souls that are
working their way back to clear vision -- even as we speak.

Best,

Otis No-copyright (c) 2004

________________________

The Ambulance (Minus-Lens) Down In The Valley

'Twas a dangerous cliff, as they freely confessed,
Though to walk near its crest was so pleasant;

But over its terrible edge there had slipped
A duke, and full many a peasant.

The people said something would have to be done,
But their projects did not at all tally.

Some said, "Put a fence 'round the edge of the cliff,"
Some, "An ambulance down in the valley."

The lament of the crowd was profound and was loud,
As their hearts overflowed with their pity;

But the cry for the ambulance carried the day
As it spread through the neighboring city.

A collection was made, to accumulate aid,
And the dwellers in highway and alley

Gave dollars or cents - not to furnish a fence -
But an ambulance down in the valley.

"For the cliff is all right if you're careful," they said;
"And if folks ever slip and are dropping,

It isn't the slipping that hurts them so much
As the shock down below - when they're stopping."

So for years (we have heard), as these mishaps occurred,
Quick forth would the rescuers sally,

To pick up the victims who fell from the cliff,
With the ambulance down in the valley.

Said one, to his peers, "It's a marvel to me
That you'd give so much greater attention

To repairing results than to curing the cause;
You had much better aim at prevention.

For the mischief, of course, should be stopped at its source,
Come, neighbors and friends, let us rally.

It is far better sense to rely on a fence
Than an ambulance down in the valley."

"He is wrong in his head," the majority said;
"He would end all our earnest endeavor.

He's a man who would shirk his responsible work,
But we will support it forever.

Aren't we picking up all, just as fast as they fall,
And giving them care liberally?

A superfluous fence is of no consequence,
If the ambulance works in the valley.

The story looks queer as we've written it here,
But things oft occur that are stranger;

More humane, we assert, than to succor the hurt
Is the plan of removing the danger,

The best possible course is to safeguard the source;
Attend to things rationally.

Yes, build up the fence and let us dispense
With the ambulance down in the valley.

************************

Dear "Mike" and "Shawn",

There were strong reasons why I asked you to check your eye
chart and "take control".

Here is the reason why.  It is "attitude" -- as Mike T.
spells it out in full force.

No wonder there is no progress -- but steady degeneration
exacerbated produced by both a "confined environment" and that
wretched minus lens.

If I told you about this "situation" you most likely would
not believe me.  So Mike T has done it for all of us.  If you do
not mind permanent loss of distant vision -- then just stop
wearing that plus.

But ask yourself -- "Is keeping my distant vision clear for
life "worth it"?

I acknowledge how "difficult" true prevention is -- and must
be understood and "worked" on that basis.  The other choice it to
quit wearin the plus -- and in a matter of one or two years you
will be back into it -- as the scientific records at both West
Point and Annopolis clearly prove.

    Best,

    Otis
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 23:31 GMT
> No wonder there is no progress -- but steady degeneration
> exacerbated by .. that wretched minus lens.

Please provide some evidence that human myopes get worse by wearing glasses.

> If you do
> not mind permanent loss of distant vision -- then just stop
> wearing that plus.

Please provide some evidence that permanent loss of vision occurs when plus
is not worn.

> will be back into it -- as the scientific records at both West
> Point and Annopolis clearly prove.

Grosvenor's study at the USNA compared groups and found no difference. Is
there some other study you haven't told us about?

We know you don't like the word "defect." Would you please tell us how
"degeneration" is better than "defect?"

You've told us you don't dispense medical advice and you won't use "medical"
terms. When did you decide "loss of vision" and "degeneration" are no longer
medical terms?

-MT
visionsenz@aol.com - 07 Jan 2005 16:21 GMT
Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined
environment. What is this precisely?
I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their
eyesight goes to pot. What happens when they read a newspaper?
Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their
cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?
When is environment confined or unconfined? Eskimos had no problem in
the confinement of their igloos. Yet according to Otis submariners are
prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines.
Robin Parsons   Visionsenz@yahoogroups.com
Neil Brooks - 07 Jan 2005 16:28 GMT
Robin Parsons wrote:

> Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined
> environment. What is this precisely?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the confinement of their igloos. Yet according to Otis submariners are
> prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines.

You're not arguing with Otis's nephew and niece, now are you?

;-)
Mike Tyner - 07 Jan 2005 17:31 GMT
> Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined
> environment. What is this precisely?

I believe Young limited the environment to a maximum of three feet with
opaque cages.

There's evidence from human studies that those who spend more time in close
work, and those who work closer, get slightly more nearsighted. "Slightly,"
because as a relative risk factor, near work accounts for no more than
10-20% of myopia.

What disappoints us, and what confuses Otis, is that using plus to reduce
the effect of near work doesn't make an appreciable difference in the
progression of myopia. Using minus to restore natural vision doesn't seem to
aggravate it, either.

> I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their
> eyesight goes to pot. What happens when they read a newspaper?

They call this "deprivation myopia" and it's a curious phenomenon. It
doesn't happen at all ages, only in the young. It happens even when the
optic nerve is severed. It doesn't happen equally in all species of monkey,
and it happens in mammals like ground squirrels who have no functional
accommodation.

> Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their
> cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?

It's "visual" confinement, so the only way airline pilots would be
susceptible is if they painted the windshield white and started writing on
it.

> When is environment confined or unconfined? Eskimos had no problem in
> the confinement of their igloos.

When the effect is demonstrated in young animals, it only takes brief
periods of far-away gaze to interrupt the response. Native Eskimos were
hunters and had little evolutionary motive for developing nearsightedness.

>Yet according to Otis submariners are
> prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines.

Otis also believes all college students get nearsighted. Young showed it
takes constant confinement in a very close space to cause the effect. Short
breaks away from close work are all it takes to remove the risk.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 10 Jan 2005 18:43 GMT
Dear Mike T.

Subject:  Your fractured understanding of population statistics.

Mike>  Otis also believes all college students get nearsighted.

Otis> You keep on putting words in my mouth.  Sorry, I absolutly do not
believe this.
I believe ONLY what Dr. Hayden stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE
will move "down" (in terms of refractive status) at a rate
of -1/3 diopter per year.  I have posted the report.

Otis>  Since you don't undersand the concept, a popuilation AVERAGE
contains individuals who go down by -1.8 diopters, and some who
go down by 0.0 diopters.  The AVERAGE my friend is
-1/3 diopters.  ANYONE with some intelligence, entering
a four year college with a refractive status of 0.0 diopters
(trial-lens kit) should be apprised of these statistics.

Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the
one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE
REFRACTIVE CHANGE.  If that is his choice -- it is
fine with me.

Otis> But if he has any common sense, he will
have a choice -- of using a "preventive" plus lens -- or
not.

Otis> It is ture that YOU CAN NOT "PRESCRIBE" the
plus in this manner.  Rather the engineer-scienctist
must look at this kind of experimental and scientific
data an reach a conclusion as to HOW MUCH he
values his distant vision -- while going thorugh
a four year college.

Otis>  But that suggests intelligent-control on
the part of the person himself -- where he takes
presonal control -- and sees the results
himself.

But you refuse to understand the concept.

Further:

Young showed it
takes constant confinement in a very close space to cause the effect.

Otis>  Young used a box where the maximum distance
was about 20 inches, (-2.0 diopters) and the average about 16 inches
(I recall).  The goal was to determine if the natural eye was
"dynamic" and the correlation between the refractive
status of the natural eye and its average visual enviroment.
This was a pure scientific experiment to establish base-line
behavior for the natural eye.

Best,

Otis
Engineer
Mike Tyner - 11 Jan 2005 00:05 GMT
> Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the
> one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE
> REFRACTIVE CHANGE.  If that is his choice -- it is
> fine with me.

Otis, do 99% of college students shift toward nearsightedness?

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 11 Jan 2005 21:50 GMT
Dear Mike,
Are you just playing dumb?
I stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE
moves "down" at a rate of -1/3 diopter per year.
Hell, even high school students can figure
out the implications of that statement.

Or maybe you are not "playing".

I hope you do not regard the
people who enter your office
as that dumb.
If you do then they are in
serious trouble.

Best,

Otis
Engineer
Neil Brooks - 11 Jan 2005 21:56 GMT
Otis Brown wrote:

> It may be that he believes that he will be the
> one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE
> REFRACTIVE CHANGE.  If that is his choice -- it is
> fine with me.

Mike Tyner replied:

> Otis, do 99% of college students shift toward nearsightedness?

Otis Brown wrote:

> Dear Mike,
> Are you just playing dumb?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> If you do then they are in
> serious trouble.

Oh, Otis . . . here you go again.  What Mike Tyner did was to deduce a
logical conclusion from a statement that /you/ made.

What you're saying here is, basically, "Gee, Mike.  when you throw /my own
words/ back at me, they really /do/ sound idiotic, don't they?"

Re-read your tripe, Otis.  You are your own worst enemy.
Mike Tyner - 11 Jan 2005 23:05 GMT
> Are you just playing dumb?
> I stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE
> moves "down" at a rate of -1/3 diopter per year.

Yes, but you also "stated":

> Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the
> one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE
> REFRACTIVE CHANGE.

If you believe one percent survives four years without negative refractive
change, then you believe 99% DID experience negative refractive change.

Since it doesn't happen, we must assume you simply spout figures without
understanding them.

> Hell, even high school students can figure
> out the implications of that statement.

Is that how you arrived at 99%?

-MT
A Lieberman - 11 Jan 2005 02:11 GMT
> Otis> You keep on putting words in my mouth.  Sorry, I absolutly do not
> believe this.
> I believe ONLY what Dr. Hayden stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE
> will move "down" (in terms of refractive status) at a rate
> of -1/3 diopter per year.  I have posted the report.

Otis,

Please provide me with Dr. Hayden's publication from an unbiased website
supporting the above statement.  

Did you have a coffee break with Dr. Hayden on the above and have a
friendly chat about the above subject or did he publish his findings?  

If he published the findings as you state above, then tell me where he
published it.  I am sure it can be retrieved from some sort of archives.

Or is Dr. Hayden a made up figure in your imagination.

Allen
Dan Abel - 07 Jan 2005 18:29 GMT
> Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their
> cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?

When I'm a passenger in an airplane, I'm kind of hoping that the pilot is
watching out the window to see where the plane is going.

:-)

Signature

Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
dabel@sonic.net

visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 15:13 GMT
> > Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their
> > cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> AIS
> dabel@sonic.net

Apart from take off and landing pilots are too busy looking at
instuments and stewardesses to look out the window. What could they see
other than a great expanse of nothingness? Automatic pilot does the
flying at altitude.
Robin Parsons
otisbrown@pa.net - 10 Jan 2005 04:33 GMT
Dear Robin, you old friend,
Subject:  Please quote me correctly
What I stated was that the natural eye is dynamic,
and will change its refractive state if:
1.  You place a minus lens on it, and
2.  Place it is a more-confined visual environment.
(Adolescent, young primates.)
These proven scientific facts are denied by most,
but they are the final engineering-scientific
statement about the behavior of the natural
eye as a proven, sophisticated system.
Please note that I use the term, "refractive
status" and did not interpert the measurements.

To reply to your statements.

Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined
environment.

Otis>  I said "change in refractive status".  I put
no "spin" on the direct measurements of the
natural eye's refractive state -- postive or negative.

What is this precisely?

Otis>  This is basic "input" versus "output" engineering-scientific
testing where you are seeking to determine if the natural
eye changes its refractive status and the visual
enviroment is changed.  The alternative possibility
is that tne natural eye does no change.  (i.e.,
the "null hypothesis" in science.)

I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their
eyesight goes to pot.

Otis>  This is not about doing anything like that.  I am certain
that if you suture your eyes shut -- you will not see to well.

What happens when they read a newspaper?
Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their
cockpits.

Otis>  Your conjecture -- not mine.

Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?

Otis>  Depends what scientific truth you are attempting
to establish for the dynamic behavior of the natural
eye -- as a sophisticated system.

When is environment confined or unconfined?

Otis>  In the case of the primates, the "delta" in the
enviroment (in diopters) was about -0.8 diopters.
The refractive state changed by -0.79 diopters
(following the e ^ ( -t/TAU) function.
The correlation coefficient was 0.97.
You must use quantitave numbers to provide
predicted results.  The term "confined" or "unconfined"
has virtually no meaning in a scientific context.

Eskimos had no problem in
the confinement of their igloos.

Otis>  This is a distorted statement -- if you ever read the
study conducted by Francis Young.  The grandparents
who could not read had mostly 20/20 and refarctive
status running from zero to 2 or 3 diopters.

Otis>  The children had massive degrees of myopia,
in some cases running to 88 percent of specific
groups of kids.  You make a sweeping statement
with our any verification or confirmation.

Yet according to Otis submariners are
prone to myopia.

Otis>  Published report which got me interested in
the subject -- and led to conversations with
Dr. Ludlam and Dr. Raphaelson -- and others.

Not according to my son who is in submarines.

Otis>  Truly a "one" data point.

Thanks, Robin, I enjoyed your review.
Best,

Otis

Robin Parsons  

Visions...@yahoogroups.com
Philip D Izaac - 10 Jan 2005 06:57 GMT
> Dear Robin, you old friend,
> Subject:  Please quote me correctly
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
> groups of kids.  You make a sweeping statement
> with our any verification or confirmation.

Their granparents did not live in igloos then?

> Yet according to Otis submariners are
> prone to myopia.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Visions...@yahoogroups.com
A Lieberman - 23 Dec 2004 02:56 GMT
> Dear Allen,
>
> Do we have proof that Allen Liberman exists?

Gosh Otis, for the first time, I have to agree with you.  Does Allen
Liberman exist?  Not to my knowledge.

Quick check on the internet would validate my existence on a goverment site
that has public records.  I would think this is more then what you can
provide.  You may want to verify your spelling of my name.  If you can't
even get my name right, as usual, what makes me think anything you post is
right?

> As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his
> is right to privacy -- to avoid being
> hasselled by the likes of Jan-OD (must be destroyed),
> and others.

Why does Herb have to worry?  I doubt that Herb Black exists.  Just like
Shawn and any other names you have dropped on this group.  

Not one name is willing to come foreward to support your position.  Mighty
suspicious one would think.  Or would one think that all these names you
post are fake.  

I would suspect the second thought that these subjects you post are fake
since nobody will come forward to support your position.

Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 03:46 GMT
Dear Allen,

The truth is that it hardly matters whether you exist -- or do not.

What matters is that the people concerned with this issue
personally verify that they can clear to the required
legal standard of 6/1.8cm.  If they do this under their
own control, then that fact would only matter to THEM.

As far as "who exists", you are free to read my book
on

www.i-see.org

And decide if the people there are "real" or in
your imagination.

Obviously my sister's children's vision was very
important to me -- and to them.  They just "worked"
the plus -- kept their vision clear.

But, as before, you can not "prescribe" this type of
understanding an motivation.  They just followed
the recommendations of Dr. Raphaelson,
Dr. Grosvenor, Dr. Steve Leung, Dr. Francis
Young, and other gifted scientists.

But it was there own efforts that paid off
for them.

That is the only issue that matters.

Best,

Otis
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 04:07 GMT
Dear  Allen Liberman,

As long as your are researching people you claim do
not exist, why not run down the following people for
me.

Dr. Karel Montor is dead.  But what a great guy.

I have lost touch with some -- but if you find
them let me know.  They are all freinds,
and we had some pleasant times together.

Best,

Otis

__________________

ACKNOWLEDGMENT

Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review
the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's
behavior.

In this effort I have met many fine individuals working in the diverse
fields of engineering, ophthalmology, aeronautical education,
optometry, and scientific research. In addition, I have been assisted
by many friends who have patiently reviewed this analysis and engaged
in much discussion and review. The writing of this book was possible
only with the assistance of the following individuals:

Paul Romano, MD, University of Florida
Peter Greene, PhD, Harvard University
Karel Montor, PhD, The United States Naval Academy
Dave Guyton, MD, Johns Hopkins University
Alfred Sommers, MD, Johns Hopkins Hospital
James Tielsch, MD, Johns Hopkins Hospital
Lawrence Stark, MD, PhD, Research Scientist
Vera Rollo, PhD, Author, Flight Instructor
William Ludlam, OD, Research Optometrist
Francis Young, PhD, Research Psychologist
Alan Shotwell, OD, Research Optometrist
Stirling Colgate, PhD, Research Scientist, Los Alamos
Howard Howland, PhD, Research Scientist, Cornell University
Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist
Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates
Dr. Leukoma - 23 Dec 2004 13:40 GMT
> In this effort I have met many fine individuals working in the diverse
> fields of engineering, ophthalmology, aeronautical education,
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist
> Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates

Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your ideas
about myopia prevention?

Or, are you simply 'name-dropping' again?

DrG
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 14:04 GMT
> Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your ideas
> about myopia prevention?

He's saying they've conducted studies comparing groups of myopes wearing
"the plus" against groups who wear "the minus" and they've decided to hide
their results from the rest of us.

It's a conspiracy, I say.

-MT
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 02:07 GMT
>> Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your
>> ideas about myopia prevention?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> -MT

If William Ludlam has published anything like that, I am unaware of it.

DrG
A Lieberman - 24 Dec 2004 00:29 GMT
> "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in

>> Howard Howland, PhD, Research Scientist, Cornell University

You lose more credibility everytime you post Otis.  

I really think you are living in a dream world.  You don't answer questions
others ask, you provide names that have no foundation, or credibility.

I don't want to take away from the accomplishments of Mr Howland, but he
works at the college of Veterinary Medicine.  I take it, he is a specialist
on human eyes?????  He endorses your book of plus therapy???  And he works
at a Veterinary College?????  Maybe I am missing something?????

I only selected his name out of random.  I can't imagine if I delved
further in your what appears to be a facticious list of so called names and
subjects.

Allen
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 02:10 GMT
>> "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Allen

The same goes for William Ludlam, O.D., who taught at Pacific College of
Optometry for many years.  Ludlam is better known for work in "neuro-
optometry," in the rehabilitation of patients with visual disorders arising
from brain trauma.

DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 05:17 GMT
Dear Dr G.,

OK, I get it.  EVERYONE who does not agree
with you, even highly qualiried OPTOMETRISTS
must be WRONG because YOU SAY SO.

You are right -- because you say you are right.

With very little science behind you, other than
you can spin dials on an phoropter and
make vision very sharp with a strong minus lens.
And that is your "like of authority".

Interesting!

Best,

Otis
RM - 24 Dec 2004 13:24 GMT
No Otis,
but instead of showing us the data (which you claim you have exhaustively
evaluated over 30 years, so you must have it) you just drop names.  First it
was a few individual names of old optometrists, now its a list of folk some
of whom turn out to be from a Vet school!

Just show us the controlled studies Otis.  Its what they do in Science.  Its
what they do in Medicine.

If you don't have the data, then your ideas are nothing more than a lay
persons theory.

-----

> Dear Dr G.,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Otis
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 13:34 GMT
> Dear Dr G.,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Otis

Everything you wrote above applies to you, not to me.  I have long thought
that you are suffering from some kind of delusion, and this proves it.

There is not an optometrist who participates in this group who agrees with
your opinion, hence your use of the term "minority opinion."

Your method of prevention has been put into disrepute by a number of highly
qualified and respected scientists.

Show me the proof or go away.  This is sci.med.vision, not alt.quackery.

DrG
Neil Brooks - 24 Dec 2004 17:38 GMT
So, Otis . . .

Despite my best efforts at adding you and your pet topic to my killfile in
every conceivable permutation, here you are again.

A couple quick things:

   1) I suppose the bar for "proof" should be lower for you than for the
rest of the scientific community because you want it to be?  Seems a little
narcissistic and self-serving;

   2) In the wake of recent events (Aleve, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc.) I'm
reminded that scientific hypotheses should be held to the /highest/ of
scrutiny before introduced as "safe," "accurate," "state-of-the-art," or
"conventional wisdom."  Reach for it, Mister.  It's up there for you to
surmount.

Time and time again, you eagerly and blithely foist your theories on
unsuspecting folks who stop by S.M.V. looking for help.  The general public
must rely on the kindly doctors to alert them to your lack of credentials,
potential for harm, and untested hypotheses.

Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye doctors on
this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a lock on a huge
chunk of change that comes from doing things "their" way.  They may be a
member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends its wealth by maintaining
the status quo.  All of this /may/ be true.

But you still come across as a petulant, Napoleonic idiot.

The bar for proving your theories is the same as it is for all others.  Go
prove your theories (yes, the old fashioned way: proper testing, accurate
data, peer-review) and -- if there's a kernel of truth in what you spout --
you'll be rich and you'll be right up there with Bagolini, Heimholz,
Donders, Schirmer, Robert A. Strabismus, and all the other paragons whose
names are memorialized in ophthalmology/optometry.

Until then, you're a troll . . . who creates risk for unsuspecting, often
desperate, people seeking help.  "Engineer" in your signature expiates some
of your guilt.  It does nothing to ameliorate the risk.  Perhaps if your
signature said, "I am not a doctor.  My theories are my own and are not
shared by most in the medical community.  Consult your doctor."

Neil
Dr. Leukoma - 25 Dec 2004 01:24 GMT
> Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye
> doctors on this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a
> lock on a huge chunk of change that comes from doing things "their"
> way.  They may be a member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends
> its wealth by maintaining the status quo.  All of this /may/ be true.

OK, let's get something straight around here.  My license permits me to use
lenses, prisms, therapy, and drugs to treat vision disorders.  If there was
a way to prevent myopia, some optometrist somewhere will be selling it and
reaping the rewards.  Otis would not have to advertise, and people would be
beating a path to his door.  At any given moment, there are any number of
myopes who are investigating methods of prevention.  The PLUS lens has been
around for hundreds of years.  If the plus lens was truly effective, the
MINUS lens would have little use today.  Instead, Otis complains about a
vast conspiracy that goes back way before any optometrist ever lived.

Otis craves attention and we give it to him.  If you were having a
conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away.

DrG
RM - 25 Dec 2004 03:09 GMT
> Otis craves attention and we give it to him.  If you were having a
> conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away.

What you are saying is dead on correct.

However, when you are at a cocktail party and some jerk is spouting off and
you choose to walk away because you see through his BS, there may be some
poor innocent around who doesn't see him for what he is and actually listens
and takes him seriously.  This is what pisses me off about Otis.

Going back to where we were a month ago, maybe we should just reply with a
single "Otis is a troll" warning whenever he posts to this newsgroup.
Neil Brooks - 25 Dec 2004 04:15 GMT
Neil Brooks wrote:

>> Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye
>> doctors on this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a
>> lock on a huge chunk of change that comes from doing things "their"
>> way.  They may be a member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends
>> its wealth by maintaining the status quo.  All of this /may/ be true.

> OK, let's get something straight around here.  My license permits me
> to use lenses, prisms, therapy, and drugs to treat vision disorders.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Otis craves attention and we give it to him.  If you were having a
> conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away.

Forgive me if my indictment of the doc's on this NG seemed sincere.  It
wasn't.  Hopefully, you've seen other posts where I sing (all of) your
praises.  I was being facetious, intending to say, "Hey, look.  Even if the
doctors here /were/ all crooks, you're still an idiot, Otis."

I meant no disrespect.  I absolutely agree that, if Otis (or anybody else)
genuinely had a safer, better mousetrap, you'd be using it immediately and
he'd be living on George Harrison's island.

Can't speak for the doc's here, but I assume the reason that most of you
don't usually walk away is that there is risk of leaving people with, at
best, false hope and, at worst, risky/dangerous information provided by
Otis.

I continue to applaud all of your efforts -- you, the doc's who contribute
to this newsgroup.

Best,

Neil
RM - 23 Dec 2004 15:30 GMT
> ACKNOWLEDGMENT
>
> Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review
> the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's
> behavior.

So why don't you just share some of the "direct scientific experimental
data" (your words) with us?  Certainly you have it after having spent 30
years of exhaustive review.  I assume the studies were scientifically valid
with randomized controls, double-blinded, statistically valid N values, etc.

And how is it that you could even assess these studies in your exhaustive
review since you admit to not having any training on how the eye works?

> Paul Romano, MD, University of Florida
> Peter Greene, PhD, Harvard University
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist
> Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates

I agree-- sounds like name dropping again to me.

When Otis is presented with questions he can't answer he resorts to either
ignoring the questions, dropping some expert-sounding names, or trying to
kick-up a bunch of dust with equations etc.

Otis, I believe you are actually a nice guy who is really trying to help
people.  The problem is you have reached a conclusion about a type of
therapy that might benefit myopes that seems right to you but isn't proven.
Just because you have seen cases where it seems to work (and it really might
work on accommodative myopes) and you know of educated people who think like
you as well, doesn't mean that that's the way it really works!  It must be
proven-- and so far it hasn't been.  No self-respecting doctor will practice
what you are proposing without proof.  If you want us to listen to you, then
GO PROVE IT.
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 18:41 GMT
Dear RM,

Subject:  Scientific knowledge -- and paradigms

What I talk about is the natural eye as a "dynamic system" -- prior
to ANY USE of a word that implies "defect".  If you wish to
believe that a natural eye is "defective" because it has
negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding
of science -- and not mine.  Given that -- I simply do not
make ANY medical statement at all.  The words have you
messed up -- my un-identified friend.

RM > Otis, I believe you are actually a nice guy who is really trying
to help
people.

Otis>  I enjoy people and pleasant conversations.  I know how
hard "prevention" is, an my goal was to implement the
suggestions made by Dr. Raphaelson, and to see if
I could get his concept on a "scientific" (not medical) footing.

Otis>  I also realized that the person himself must make
that decision.  I am certain you wish to help also.  But I am
never going to "fight" over a person with you.  That would
make no sense at all.  The person himself will have to make
that decision himself -- in my opinion.

The problem is you have reached a conclusion about a type of
therapy that might benefit myopes ...

Otis > I do not talk about "therapy" -- and I think that idea
"jumps the gun".  It is necessary for the person to look
at the alternative himself -- and decide if "prevention" is
"right" for him.  Thus the question only exists on
the threshold -- i.e. before a minus lens is REQUIRED.
Only a person who has gone through this "educational" process
should make this type of decision -- as pilots have done it.

RM > ... that seems right to you but isn't proven.

Otis>  That does depend on the "words" used to describe
the natural eye's behavior -- and what the educated person
himself considers proof to be.  You have profoundly different
words to describe this situation -- than I do.

Just because you have seen cases where it seems to work (and it really
might
work on accommodative myopes)

Otis>  It is ALWAYS the person himself who makes that judgment.
I consider the person to be intellectually competent -- under the
right circumstances to make that decision.  Obvously you
don't think any one has that competency.

RM > ...and you know of educated people who think like
you as well, doesn't mean that that's the way it really works!

Otis>  We disagree about whether the natural eye is
dynamic (i.e., changes its refractive state with "deltas" in
accommodation -- and NOTHING ELSE)
We can not know has the natural eye "really works" until
you run "input" versus "output" tests on the refractive states
of the compltely natural eye.

RM > It must be
proven-- and so far it hasn't been.

Otis>  That depends on your "medical" perspective verus
the scientific perspective of Dr. Colgate and Dr. Francis Young.
Young has published 50 plus papers.  How many have
you published?

No self-respecting doctor will practice
what you are proposing without proof.

Otis>  A great many thinkg come it to "use" with out proof,
among them were the minus lens.  It was used because
it "worked".  But to say "justifiec by science" is a
real streach.  Even its safety in no proven.  This
is a "Mexican stand off" my friend.

If you want us to listen to you, then
GO PROVE IT.

Otis>  I know your ears are stopped up and your eyes
are closed.  Proof will never occur to you.  I will develop
among those ODs who will finally start their own
children in the plus -- before they go lower than
zero diopters.

Otis>  Obviously this does depend on the ODs judgment
of the experimental data itself -- and to that
extent it depends on Steve Leung's judgement.

Best,

Otis
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT
> What I talk about is the natural eye as a "dynamic system" -- prior
> to ANY USE of a word that implies "defect".

Who uses the word "defect"? You never answer. You run and hide from the
difficult questions.

> If you wish to
> believe that a natural eye is "defective" because it has
> negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding
> of science -- and not mine.

The sad fact is you don't know how absurd this is. Do you consider a
negative electrical charge "defective?"

Would you please suggest some other description for regions on a number line
to the left and right of zero? Until you do, I'll stick with what they teach
from the third grade up.

> Given that -- I simply do not
> make ANY medical statement at all.

If you say so, it must be true. Juries don't care, but you don't acknowledge
that because you haven't had to defend your practices in court. You are free
to run and hide.

> Otis>  I enjoy people and pleasant conversations.  I know how
> hard "prevention" is, an my goal was to implement the
> suggestions made by Dr. Raphaelson, and to see if
> I could get his concept on a "scientific" (not medical) footing.

So did Dr. Raphaelson compare groups of myopes wearing plus to groups
wearing minus? Run and hide if you don't have an answer.

> Otis > I do not talk about "therapy" -- and I think that idea
> "jumps the gun".

You seem to have misplaced your dictionary. If *you* don't call it therapy,
it must not *be* therapy. Is that how it works? You run and hide if we hold
you to professional standards.

> It is necessary for the person to look
> at the alternative himself -- and decide if "prevention" is
> "right" for him.  Thus the question only exists on
> the threshold -- i.e. before a minus lens is REQUIRED.
> Only a person who has gone through this "educational" process
> should make this type of decision -- as pilots have done it.

So where are the comparisons between groups of pilots who have "done it" and
those who have not "done it?" No answer?

> Otis>  That does depend on the "words" used to describe
> the natural eye's behavior -- and what the educated person
> himself considers proof to be.  You have profoundly different
> words to describe this situation -- than I do.

Who else uses your "words?" Do Dr. Raphaelson or Dr. Leung avoid using the
term "myopia" or "minus"?  No answer?

Myopia is NOT a "negative refractive state". It is an excessively POSITIVE
refractive state where the lenses that neutralize it were arbitrarily
denoted as "negative." You would think it absurd if we said electrons always
move from the "plus" terminal of a battery to the "minus" terminal.

> Otis>  It is ALWAYS the person himself who makes that judgment.

But you want us to change our standards of practice. Anecdotes won't do
that. Comparisons will. Where are your comparisons? Are you hiding them?

> I consider the person to be intellectually competent -- under the
> right circumstances to make that decision.  Obvously you
> don't think any one has that competency.

That isn't how science is done, except in your imagination. If you don't
agree with professional standards, they must not exist?

> Otis>  We disagree about whether the natural eye is
> dynamic (i.e., changes its refractive state with "deltas" in
> accommodation -- and NOTHING ELSE)

No, you said we disagreed on many basic definitions, just as we disagree
with your calling myopia a "negative refractive state".

> We can not know has the natural eye "really works" until
> you run "input" versus "output" tests on the refractive states
> of the compltely natural eye.

Please show us a human study comparing myopes wearing plus with those
wearing minus. I've found a few but they all disagree with you so naturally,
they don't exist or they must be wrong.

> Otis>  That depends on your "medical" perspective verus
> the scientific perspective of Dr. Colgate and Dr. Francis Young.
> Young has published 50 plus papers.  How many have
> you published?

Where has Dr. Young or Dr. Colgate published a comparison of myopes wearing
plus versus myopes who don't? You never answer because they haven't.

> Otis>  A great many thinkg come it to "use" with out proof,
> among them were the minus lens.  It was used because
> it "worked".  But to say "justifiec by science" is a
> real streach.  Even its safety in no proven.  This
> is a "Mexican stand off" my friend.

Please show us a study attributing harm to minus lenses. I showed you two
studies where those who removed their glasses GOT WORSE FASTER. You ignored
me, just as you run and hide from all the difficult questions.

> Otis>  I know your ears are stopped up and your eyes
> are closed.  Proof will never occur to you.  I will develop
> among those ODs who will finally start their own
> children in the plus -- before they go lower than
> zero diopters.

Proof consists of comparisons between those wearing minus and those who
don't. Where are your comparisons? You imagine the proof is out there
somewhere, but you never cite the article.

> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind
> In near environments confined.
> No matter that he didn't fix
> Myopia with his bag of tricks.

-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 04:45 GMT
Dear Mike,

Let me remind you that Jan has stated that the concept
that the natural eye is dynamic "... must be destroyed".

Do you really think we are going to have an
intelligent discussion about the dynamic behavior
of a sophisticated competent system -- beyond
that point?

Proof is in the mind of the man who balances ideas
and concepts -- and examines the facts with
these analytic ideas in mind.  You mind
slammed shut a long time ago -- with
due respect.

Proof consists of comparisons between those wearing minus and those who

don't.

Where are your comparisons? You imagine the proof is out there
somewhere, but you never cite the article.

Otis>  I am always willing to discuss scientific (not medical)
proof conderning the dynamic behavior of the  fundamental
eye -- with people who are reasonable.  From Jan's
comment -- I conclude you are not reasonable on
a scientific level.

Otis>  The person who is working to clear his vision
(from -2.5 diopters) should consider this very
carefully -- because this issue of a "second opinion",
honest choice, and making all the measurements
YOUSELF are critical to HIS long term visual
welfare.  You are hopeless in this endeavor my
friend.  Your are not part of ther solution -- you
are part of the problem -- and don't know it.

> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind

You idiot.  Francis Young did no such thing.
I put this down to your total ignorance, of
such testing or a desire to twist words
to maintain "your position".

> In near environments confined.

Otis>  The refractrive status of these natrual eyes,
(test group relative to control group) changed, following
the expected  e ^ ( -t / tau ) function.  According to your
box-camera theory (Donder-Helmholtz) there could
be, must not be, any change.  The predictive accuracy
of your equation is very poor indeed.

> No matter that he didn't fix
> Myopia with his bag of tricks.

Otis>  A person himself can gradually come to a "better conclusion",
if he is given the power to make all the critical measurements.

Otis>  It takes strong motivation to do this type of work.
In time, the proof, and that persons succes depend
on an accurate assessment of the eye's behavior
as a sophisticated system, and not in repeating
the same method that was put in place 400 years
ago because a "quick fix" works instantly.

Best,

Otis
cc:  Young men who are doning the "honest"
work of true-prevention.
Mike Tyner - 24 Dec 2004 06:56 GMT
> Let me remind you that Jan has stated that the concept
> that the natural eye is dynamic "... must be destroyed".

Let me remind you that you continue to offer medical advice using similarly
inflammatory nonsense like "the wretched minus."

Please produce some evidence that myopes wearing minus get any worse than
myopes who don't. THEN we can have an "intelligent discussion."

> Proof is in the mind of the man who balances ideas
> and concepts -- and examines the facts with
> these analytic ideas in mind.

Perhaps for you. For licensed doctors, proof is in published comparisons
between groups wearing and not wearing minus. Where do you find that
information? Tell us. We want to see it.

No answer.

> Otis>  I am always willing to discuss scientific (not medical)
> proof conderning the dynamic behavior of the  fundamental
> eye -- with people who are reasonable.

So please discuss the evidence you've found that myopes who wear glasses get
more nearsighted than myopes who don't.

No answer.

> From Jan's
> comment -- I conclude you are not reasonable on
> a scientific level.

And from your lack of response, I gather that faith is the evidence of
things not seen.

> Otis>  The person who is working to clear his vision
> (from -2.5 diopters) should consider this very
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> friend.  Your are not part of ther solution -- you
> are part of the problem -- and don't know it.

Please give us some evidence that myopes who wear glasses get more
nearsighted that myopes who don't. No answer.

>> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind
>
> You idiot.  Francis Young did no such thing.
> I put this down to your total ignorance, of
> such testing or a desire to twist words
> to maintain "your position".

Did not Francis Young make monkeys myopic by raising them in a closed
environment?

Did you not say that myopia was "permanent loss of distant vision?"

>> In near environments confined.
>
> Otis>  The refractrive status of these natrual eyes,
> (test group relative to control group) changed, following
> the expected  e ^ ( -t / tau ) function.

If you say so. Young made monkeys myopic. Weisel said it worked in some
species but not others, and that all species stopped responding that way at
some age. Young didn't make monkeys better with plus lenses.

>  According to your
> box-camera theory (Donder-Helmholtz) there could
> be, must not be, any change.

You only imagine that's what I think. Box cameras don't change. Human eyes
do.

> The predictive accuracy
> of your equation is very poor indeed.

I haven't proposed an equation. OTOH, your understanding of risk attribution
is very poor indeed.

>> No matter that he didn't fix
>> Myopia with his bag of tricks.
>
> Otis>  A person himself can gradually come to a "better conclusion",
> if he is given the power to make all the critical measurements.

Science isn't done that way. We compare groups, not anecdotes.

> Otis>  It takes strong motivation to do this type of work.
> In time, the proof, and that persons succes depend
> on an accurate assessment of the eye's behavior
> as a sophisticated system, and not in repeating
> the same method that was put in place 400 years
> ago because a "quick fix" works instantly.

Please show us your evidence where plus lenses reduced anatomical myopia. We
really want to know. No answer.

> cc:  Young men who are doning the "honest"
> work of true-prevention.

Please show us your comparisons where "honest work" made anatomical myopia
better. No answer.

-MT
- 23 Dec 2004 20:31 GMT
> Dear RM,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding
> of science -- and not mine.

You, and only you, are the one Otis, who wants to use the words ''defect''
and ''defective''
You, and only you Otis, do not want to use the real important word in these
matters.
The word is ''error'' nothing more nothing less and it does not implies what
you are trying to let us say.
This word ''error'' is used in one breath with the word ''refractive''
The combination is ''refractive error''

One of the ''refractive errors'' is called myopia, one of the very few
scientifically words that came out of your mouth.
Another ''refractive error'' is called hyperopia, a word that you NEVER want
to use.
None ''refractive error'' is called emmetropia, another scientifically word
wich you refuse to use.
Rember Otis, all of the types of ''refractive errors'' do exist in normal
functioning eyes.
The even could be pointed out in ''defective'' eyes.

 Given that -- I simply do not
> make ANY medical statement at all.

That's clear.
And, you are not making ANY scientifically statement to.

Signature

Free to  Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"

I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be
destroyed.

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 05:14 GMT
Dear Jan,

You have declared yourself a "God".
where you "know everything" and
everyone else must be "wrong"
because they don't agree with you.

You are like the "inquisition", were
you act like the "defender of the faith",
rather than a rational thoughtful
person willing to consider new
concepts to represent the
dynamic nature of the fundamental
eye -- on a SCIENTIFIC, (not medical)
leve.

Best,

Otis
LarryDoc - 24 Dec 2004 18:01 GMT
Round and round and round we go and where we stop...............

we dont.

Duh.
- 24 Dec 2004 19:23 GMT
> Dear Jan,
>
> You have declared yourself a "God".

Impossible Otis, I'm a humanist.

> where you "know everything" and
> everyone else must be "wrong"
> because they don't agree with you.

Comparing to your knowledge in eyecare I'm certain my knowledge is of a
higher level than yours is Otis.
Knowing everything  is impossible Otis, I wish you regognize this for your
own sake.
The majority here, the exception is that weird Italian, in this newsgroup
disagree strongly with a person called Otis Brown on his idea how to prevent
myopia, are those disagrements making you ''everyone'' Otis?
I and others have told you why whe disagree and this is done with argements
wich you could not refute, more stronger you never tried.

You are talking like a charlatan again Otis.

Signature

Free to  Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"

I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be
destroyed.

Jan (normally Dutch spoken)

visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 16:22 GMT
> Dear  Allen Liberman,
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist
> Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates

These seem influential people. Does Otis imply that all or anyone on
this list is in agreement with his Plus Lens Therapy? I myself could
furnish a list as long as your arm and everyone as big an idiot as I.
This name dropping technique of which Otis is so fond is hardly
evidence of the efficacy of his miraculous myopia treatment.
Robin Parsons
RM - 09 Jan 2005 17:11 GMT
>> ACKNOWLEDGMENT
>>
>> Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review
>> the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's
>> behavior.

This is the experimental data we are talking about Otis.  If you have
reviewed it exhaustively please share it with us.  What evidence is there
that plus lenses prevent myopia in a controlled study?  What evidence it
there that minus lenses negatively affect the eye-- controlled statistically
valid studies, not case reports of "engineer-pilots who are intelligent and
attend a 4-year college".
Dan Abel - 23 Dec 2004 19:35 GMT
> What matters is that the people concerned with this issue
> personally verify that they can clear to the required
> legal standard of 6/1.8cm.  If they do this under their
> own control, then that fact would only matter to THEM.

What *really* matters is whether you can win the California lottery.  A
recent survey of lottery winners reveals that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WON
THE LOTTERY!  Therefore, if you buy a lottery ticket, you have a 100%
chance of winning.

Signature

Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
dabel@sonic.net

visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 15:21 GMT
I can heartily recommend Otis Brown's book on Plus Lens Therapy. The de
luxe leather bound edition comes with a white stick and tame guide dog.
Robin Parsons
 
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