Medical Forum / General / Vision / January 2005
Response for Nipidoc -- on prevention
|
|
Thread rating:  |
otisbrown@pa.net - 21 Dec 2004 18:58 GMT Nipdoc.txt
Dear Nipidoc,
I have sent your request to Herb's email address.
It remains for him to respond.
Herb stated "plus references" and asked if I wished for a copy.
Herb stated that I could post his name -- but not his email address. Herb simply stated the "second opinion" that is experessed by ODs in behaviorial optometry. You should know this -- of course. You don't like the idea, but that does not make it "wrong" now does it?
I have no idea where Herb is located. Given you profound hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for declining to respond.
Further:
Mip > When can we expect Dr. Herb Blacks list of references that show that the use of plus lenses prevents the development of myopia in patients who have not worn minus lenses??
Otis> Since I do not have Herb's referencese I can not speculate what they contain.
Mip > I have also not been able to find any mention of a Herb Black, OD on google. I have only found one listing for a Dr. Herbert Black who works at the Target Optical in Littleton Colorado on the AOA website. Is this the "Dr. Herb Black" with whom you are corresponding??
Otis> I do not know. The discussion was posted on i-see, and then Herb expressed support of Dr. Steve Leung who is currently in Hong Kong -- who supports the concept of prevention with the plus.
www.chinamyopia.org
Otis> My personal interest was more in protecting my immediate relatives -- so that they could understand the choice that was available to them. It is certainly true that a great many people will reject the "plus" when it must be used for prevention. I have never argued that point. In this I was lead by the remarks of Dr. Jacob Raphaelson, who was clear on the need to make a decision FOR PEVENTION by the person concerned with the issue. Further discussions with Dr. Ludlam lead to the same conclusion. Professor Theodore Grosvenor make essentially the same comment. But the REAL ISSUE is how an optometrist (who is the parent of a child) deals with his own child. That is indeed a PERSONAL issue. As such each optometrist will have to make this decision for his own child. If there is to be "fundamental change" then that is how I believe it can "start".
Otis> Obviously my recommendation to my sister's children was to have them undertand "The Printer's Son", and the parent's rejection of Dr. Raphaelson's advocacy. They took the advocacy of Dr. Colgate seriously, and wore as strong plus whenever they sat down to read. I personally consider this action to be based on THEIR understanding of what they wanted in their life. They understood the consequences of NOT using the plus (in school) since the "down" rate is -1/2 diopter per year when no "protection" is used. It takes a wise person to look at this situation and take it seriously -- that is to "correctly" use the plus and pass all legal VA requirements -- which is what they did.
Otis> Given the intensity of commitment that this work requires, I obviously understand that you can never "prescribe" prevention -- because you can never "prescribe" the motivation and supporting "insight" required to carry out this work successfully -- as they did.
Otis> As for your remarks -- I will forward them to Herb. I look for the day when we "the public" will be able to work with professionals like Dr. Herb and Steve Leung OD, to achieve a better solution by effective prevention. But as long as Jan says that the concept of "prevention" with the plus "must be destroyed", then I must factor this it to what I think about you. Until you distance youself from "Jan-OD", then I think that my recommendaton to my sister's children was correct. They had no choice but to do it themselves -- under their own control -- because you are profoundly hostile to the concept of prevention with the plus. You leave a person no choice in this matter, other than that they learn to do it themselves under their own control.
Best,
Otis Engineer
cc: Herb Black, Steve Leung, Alfred, Donald Rehm, and the young men working to clear -- and keep their distant vision clear with the plus for the next seven years while in high school and college.
nipidoc
> I have sent your request to Herb's email address. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for > declining to respond. Quite different from an earlier posting you placed here Otis. You did post this: "I noticed in your last email about the dispute with those stone-headed ODs. I have been preparing my records to show the board an evidence of science of my work. I hope the data would be of a help for your agrument with those stone-heads.'
Sincerely,
Steve''
It is your thumb Otis, must be a big one. As usual when it comes to proof you beat the retreat Otis.
 Signature Free to Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be destroyed.
Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
nipidoc - 22 Dec 2004 02:13 GMT I look forward to Dr. Herbs references that state that plus lenses prevent the development of myopia.
And you are wrong. I LOVE the idea expressed by ODs in behavioral optometry. I wish it were true. But the fact remains that the overwhelming evidence suggests that the use of plus lenses does not stop the onset of myopia nor does the use of plus lenses slow the development of myopia.
When I was a student, I spent a 10 week rotation working with an instructor that was VERY behaviorally oriented in his private practice and used plus lenses as a form of myopia control very liberally. He had just as many myopes as patients as did the ophthalmology practice that I did another rotation at. When parents of children returned and found out that they HAD developed myopia inspite of the use of plus lenses and asked why the plus lenses didn't work, his response was always that they DID work. He always said that had the child NOT used the plus lenses, that they would have developed even MORE myopia than they did.
Do Drs Black and Leung have less myopes in their offices than other ODs who practice nearby, or at least have myopes who on average have LESS myopia? I would bet $100 that they don't.
nipidoc
> Nipdoc.txt > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- of course. You don't like the idea, but that does not make it > "wrong" now does it? otisbrown@pa.net - 03 Jan 2005 16:39 GMT Dear Nipidoc, Subject: No response from Herb Black OD
I have requested the references alluded to by Herb Black.
What I would suggest it that you read Steve Leung's site:
www.chinamyopia.org
for the second opinion, that, a negative refractive state for the eye could be completely prevented -- if the plus were forcefully used at the threshold.
Obviously THAT type of solution will require intensive efforts by the person himself.
Sorry, I can not provide the references suggested by Herb Black.
I would suggest the 50 some papers written by Dr. Francis Young on the subject of the natural eye's ability to change its refractive status as its visual environment to understand this natural, or designed-in behavior.
Best,
Otis Engineer
Mike Tyner - 03 Jan 2005 19:33 GMT > What I would suggest it that you read > Steve Leung's site: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > plus were forcefully used at > the threshold. Thanks, but as we've told you, opinions aren't worth much without evidence.
We were hoping for new citations.
> I would suggest the 50 some papers > written by Dr. Francis Young on the > subject of the natural eye's ability > to change its refractive status > as its visual environment to understand > this natural, or designed-in behavior. So has Dr. Young succeeded at preventing or reversing myopia? We're hoping to find someone who has.
-MT
RM - 04 Jan 2005 02:10 GMT An belief without any supporting evidence is called "bias".
A Lieberman - 04 Jan 2005 02:22 GMT > Sorry, I can not provide the references > suggested by Herb Black. Hmmm, why not Otis. Is it because Herb Black is a made up name?
Allen
Dr Judy - 04 Jan 2005 18:31 GMT > Dear Nipidoc, > Subject: No response from Herb Black OD [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > plus were forcefully used at > the threshold. Here some information about Steve Leung provided by Otis to the i-see Yahoo group. I wonder why is hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes?
"From: "Otis S. Brown" <otisbrown@p...> Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:58 pm Subject: Remarks by Sam Wong on preventive methods
Dear Friends,
Dr. Steve Leung -- who advocates prevention with the plus -- is being called before a "Board of Optometry", who is going to try to "shut him up", or "shut him down"."
Dr Judy
Mike Tyner - 04 Jan 2005 19:09 GMT > I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under > investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes? To Otis, it only proves the widespread nature of the conspiracy. :)
-MT
Philip D Izaac - 05 Jan 2005 06:25 GMT > > I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under > > investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes? Is this true? Where did you here this from, Can you point me to where I could find this.
Many thanks, I always enjoy your posts.
Roland J. Izaac
> To Otis, it only proves the widespread nature of the conspiracy. :) > > -MT Dr Judy - 06 Jan 2005 18:04 GMT >> > I wonder why (he) hasn't informed this poster that Dr Leung is under >> > investigation by his licensing body for the claims he makes? > > Is this true? Where did you here this from, Can you point me to where I > could find this. Otis himself says so on the yahoo i-see forum, and if Otis says it, it must be true!
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/i-see/message/9471
I tried to find something on the Hong Kong Optometrists site, but could not find a Steve Leung listed. Most licensing bodies would not post info about ongoing charges, only about completed cases andyway
Dr Judy
> Many thanks, I always enjoy your posts. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> -MT A Lieberman - 22 Dec 2004 02:55 GMT > Herb stated that I could post his name -- but not his email > address. Herb simply stated the "second opinion" that is > experessed by ODs in behaviorial optometry. You should know this > -- of course. You don't like the idea, but that does not make it > "wrong" now does it? Dear Prevention friends.
Otis makes names up. We now have a new name called Herb.
> I have no idea where Herb is located. Given you profound > hostility to the concept of prevention, I could not blame Herb for > declining to respond. As you can see, Otis does not know where Herb is located which brings up the question, is Herb real???
You be the judge.
Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Dec 2004 03:42 GMT Dear Allen,
Do we have proof that Allen Liberman exists?
We don't know who RM is.
Apparently the only OD who will offere a DISCUSSION of the potention of prevention to people at the threshold (-3/4 dipoter 20/50) is Steve, who maintains a site:
www.chinamyopia.org
As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his is right to privacy -- to avoid being hasselled by the likes of Jan-OD (must be destroyed), and others.
I have posted your remarks to him. If I were him I would just say "Jeeze", the hell with it. But as always, that is his choice.
Best,
Otis
cc Steve Leung
Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 05:58 GMT > Apparently the only OD who will offere a DISCUSSION > of the potention of prevention to people at the threshold > (-3/4 dipoter 20/50) is Steve, who maintains a site: We will be happy to discuss prevention as soon as you (or Steve, or Herb, or anybody else) produce some credible evidence that a group of anatomical myopes practicing prevention did any better than a similar group who didn't.
Likewise, we will be happy to discuss staircase myopia as soon as you produce some credible evidence that a group of anatomical myopes wearing neutralizing correction got more nearsighted than a similar group who didn't.
Until then, web sites and fringe opinions don't meet the criteria necessary to change the standards of practice for 30,000 optometrists and 10,000 ophthalmologists. Sorry.
So sing us your refrain again... all together now...
I'm Otis and I'm here to say Prevention is the only way. The books are wrong, the doctors err, It's only engineers who care.
I don't know what's inside the eye But I know how to stop the my- Opia that strikes one in three: It's all in wearing plus, you see.
To keep the eyes from going down No matter whether blue or brown Takes effort and intelligence And spectacular abstinence.
You must be faithful with the plus. You must adhere, you must discuss, You must rehearse, and memorize The Snellen chart to save your eyes.
Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind In near environments confined. No matter that he didn't fix Myopia with his bag of tricks.
Because his monkeys' eyes went down You must submit, and fool around With lenses that can trick the eye To think nearpoint infinity.
For as we know, all natural eyes Respond to near by changing size. All pilots grow myopic when They crack a book and hold a pen.
T. Grosvenor thought to intervene And used the plus in my routine, And though he did stay on the fence, His study showed "no difference".
And Parsinnen three groups displayed To see the difference glasses made. Imagine his surprise to find That uncorrected eyes declined!
No matter, I am just as sure My mind's made up, my motives pure. You doctors all conspire to keep My methods on the rubbish heap.
So one day you'll be proven wrong, And until then, I'll beat my gong: The natural eye was never meant To focus where attention went.
Copyright (c) 2004 Mike Tyner, OD
RM - 22 Dec 2004 11:55 GMT Very nice! Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc!
> So sing us your refrain again... all together now... > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > Copyright (c) 2004 > Mike Tyner, OD Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 14:09 GMT > Very nice! > Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc! Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :)
-MT
LarryDoc - 22 Dec 2004 21:37 GMT > > Very nice! > > Apparently you have more talents than just being an eye doc! > > Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :) > > -MT Which one, poet or eye doc?
-LB
Mike Tyner - 22 Dec 2004 22:08 GMT >> MT: Thanks.. Wish it paid better. :) > > Which one, poet or eye doc? Either one.. being an eye doc is easier. :)
-MT
RM - 22 Dec 2004 11:53 GMT > We don't know who RM is. > > As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his > is right to privacy
> Otis ---------------------
I claim the same right to privacy as Dr. Herb does. There are kooks out their like you and your italian friend Rishi that I prefer to be shielded from.
However, I do have a sense of concern for innocent laypersons who come to this newsgroup seeking real advise about vision problems.
Don't dodge the questions AGAIN Otis. Please answer them if you want some credibility from the eye docs here.
1. Please enlighten us on some of the "great deal of direct scientific experimental data" that shows that minus lenses are not safe. Those are your exact words-- tell us what the evidence is.
2. What are the "facts" that prove that plus lens treatment prevents myopia in "the entire population of adolescent natural eyes" as you have stated previously. Those are your exact words-- tell us what the facts are.
3. Please provide some of the "objective scientific facts that the natural eyes 'goes down' when you place a minus lens on it". Those are your exact words. Please show the data. And I don't mean your equation derived from a primate study where the animals were drastically overminused. Where is the proof that when you provide just enough minus lens power on the human eye to focus the image on the retina that it causes the eye to "go down".
4. Why is it that many myopes who do not wear their minus lenses and are therefore walking around with net plus power on their eye 24/7 DO NOT become less myopic. This is optically equivalent to wearing plus lenses all the time. Why is it that they don't revert to emmetropia? Why is it that they oftentimes become even more myopic? Optometrists have these types of adolescent patients all the time.
5. Why is it that young hyperopes, who very frequently do not wear their plus lens corrections, continue to maintain their hyperopia? They are in fact internally compensating for their hyperopia by accommodation. This is the same as being overminused 24/7. Why don't their eyes "go down" (your "scientific" terminology) and become more myopic (meaning less hyperopic)? Why is it that when you check them years later they are just as hyperopic as before, and when they approach age 40 they actually manifest even more hyperopia than before?
Yours anonymously, RM OD PhD
otisbrown@pa.net - 22 Dec 2004 18:01 GMT Dear Prevention minded friends,
Here are some remarks on prevention -- to a prevention minded optometrist.
As always, please enjoy these pleasant discussions about scientific truth and experimental reality.
Best,
Otis
______
To: Steve Leung OD
Dear Steve,
Subject: Some "behaviorial optometry" comments and two poems on the subject.
Please enjoy the following. Remember, even after 100 years, the only person that you can truly help is your own child -- because you have "control" over your child. Your daughter will learn from you -- as most people never will.
While I can determine the exact behavior of the natural eye, and prove the relationship between the natural eye and its average visual environment, I can NEVER deal with the great mass of people walking in off the street. Thus Raphaelson was right -- you might wish to help, but the parents will always "explode" if you suggest the use of the plus -- and they do not understand the "reasons why".
Just your knowledge of these issues is wonderful -- even if there is nothing you can do about it. I don't want you to put youself "at risk" for my "advocacy". I am willing to sacrifice a great deal of myself for this "cause", but ultimately it is the man who "thinks for himself" who ultimately prevents the development of nearsighedness in himself.
Best,
Otis
%%%%%%%%%%%%
Dear Mike T.,
Cute poem, Mike. I did not know that your are both a poet and a "rapper".
I am not good a "rapping", but I will post this poem in response -- with the idea that many a truth is said in jest.
The following poem is dedicated to you and your use of the minus lens, and to the welfare of those brave souls that are working their way back to clear vision -- even as we speak.
Best,
Otis No-copyright (c) 2004
________________________
The Ambulance (Minus-Lens) Down In The Valley
'Twas a dangerous cliff, as they freely confessed, Though to walk near its crest was so pleasant;
But over its terrible edge there had slipped A duke, and full many a peasant.
The people said something would have to be done, But their projects did not at all tally.
Some said, "Put a fence 'round the edge of the cliff," Some, "An ambulance down in the valley."
The lament of the crowd was profound and was loud, As their hearts overflowed with their pity;
But the cry for the ambulance carried the day As it spread through the neighboring city.
A collection was made, to accumulate aid, And the dwellers in highway and alley
Gave dollars or cents - not to furnish a fence - But an ambulance down in the valley.
"For the cliff is all right if you're careful," they said; "And if folks ever slip and are dropping,
It isn't the slipping that hurts them so much As the shock down below - when they're stopping."
So for years (we have heard), as these mishaps occurred, Quick forth would the rescuers sally,
To pick up the victims who fell from the cliff, With the ambulance down in the valley.
Said one, to his peers, "It's a marvel to me That you'd give so much greater attention
To repairing results than to curing the cause; You had much better aim at prevention.
For the mischief, of course, should be stopped at its source, Come, neighbors and friends, let us rally.
It is far better sense to rely on a fence Than an ambulance down in the valley."
"He is wrong in his head," the majority said; "He would end all our earnest endeavor.
He's a man who would shirk his responsible work, But we will support it forever.
Aren't we picking up all, just as fast as they fall, And giving them care liberally?
A superfluous fence is of no consequence, If the ambulance works in the valley.
The story looks queer as we've written it here, But things oft occur that are stranger;
More humane, we assert, than to succor the hurt Is the plan of removing the danger,
The best possible course is to safeguard the source; Attend to things rationally.
Yes, build up the fence and let us dispense With the ambulance down in the valley.
************************
Dear "Mike" and "Shawn",
There were strong reasons why I asked you to check your eye chart and "take control".
Here is the reason why. It is "attitude" -- as Mike T. spells it out in full force.
No wonder there is no progress -- but steady degeneration exacerbated produced by both a "confined environment" and that wretched minus lens.
If I told you about this "situation" you most likely would not believe me. So Mike T has done it for all of us. If you do not mind permanent loss of distant vision -- then just stop wearing that plus.
But ask yourself -- "Is keeping my distant vision clear for life "worth it"?
I acknowledge how "difficult" true prevention is -- and must be understood and "worked" on that basis. The other choice it to quit wearin the plus -- and in a matter of one or two years you will be back into it -- as the scientific records at both West Point and Annopolis clearly prove.
Best,
Otis
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 23:31 GMT > No wonder there is no progress -- but steady degeneration > exacerbated by .. that wretched minus lens. Please provide some evidence that human myopes get worse by wearing glasses.
> If you do > not mind permanent loss of distant vision -- then just stop > wearing that plus. Please provide some evidence that permanent loss of vision occurs when plus is not worn.
> will be back into it -- as the scientific records at both West > Point and Annopolis clearly prove. Grosvenor's study at the USNA compared groups and found no difference. Is there some other study you haven't told us about?
We know you don't like the word "defect." Would you please tell us how "degeneration" is better than "defect?"
You've told us you don't dispense medical advice and you won't use "medical" terms. When did you decide "loss of vision" and "degeneration" are no longer medical terms?
-MT
visionsenz@aol.com - 07 Jan 2005 16:21 GMT Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined environment. What is this precisely? I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their eyesight goes to pot. What happens when they read a newspaper? Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces? When is environment confined or unconfined? Eskimos had no problem in the confinement of their igloos. Yet according to Otis submariners are prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines. Robin Parsons Visionsenz@yahoogroups.com
Neil Brooks - 07 Jan 2005 16:28 GMT Robin Parsons wrote:
> Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined > environment. What is this precisely? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the confinement of their igloos. Yet according to Otis submariners are > prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines. You're not arguing with Otis's nephew and niece, now are you?
;-)
Mike Tyner - 07 Jan 2005 17:31 GMT > Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined > environment. What is this precisely? I believe Young limited the environment to a maximum of three feet with opaque cages.
There's evidence from human studies that those who spend more time in close work, and those who work closer, get slightly more nearsighted. "Slightly," because as a relative risk factor, near work accounts for no more than 10-20% of myopia.
What disappoints us, and what confuses Otis, is that using plus to reduce the effect of near work doesn't make an appreciable difference in the progression of myopia. Using minus to restore natural vision doesn't seem to aggravate it, either.
> I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their > eyesight goes to pot. What happens when they read a newspaper? They call this "deprivation myopia" and it's a curious phenomenon. It doesn't happen at all ages, only in the young. It happens even when the optic nerve is severed. It doesn't happen equally in all species of monkey, and it happens in mammals like ground squirrels who have no functional accommodation.
> Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their > cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces? It's "visual" confinement, so the only way airline pilots would be susceptible is if they painted the windshield white and started writing on it.
> When is environment confined or unconfined? Eskimos had no problem in > the confinement of their igloos. When the effect is demonstrated in young animals, it only takes brief periods of far-away gaze to interrupt the response. Native Eskimos were hunters and had little evolutionary motive for developing nearsightedness.
>Yet according to Otis submariners are > prone to myopia. Not according to my son who is in submarines. Otis also believes all college students get nearsighted. Young showed it takes constant confinement in a very close space to cause the effect. Short breaks away from close work are all it takes to remove the risk.
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 10 Jan 2005 18:43 GMT Dear Mike T.
Subject: Your fractured understanding of population statistics.
Mike> Otis also believes all college students get nearsighted.
Otis> You keep on putting words in my mouth. Sorry, I absolutly do not believe this. I believe ONLY what Dr. Hayden stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE will move "down" (in terms of refractive status) at a rate of -1/3 diopter per year. I have posted the report.
Otis> Since you don't undersand the concept, a popuilation AVERAGE contains individuals who go down by -1.8 diopters, and some who go down by 0.0 diopters. The AVERAGE my friend is -1/3 diopters. ANYONE with some intelligence, entering a four year college with a refractive status of 0.0 diopters (trial-lens kit) should be apprised of these statistics.
Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE REFRACTIVE CHANGE. If that is his choice -- it is fine with me.
Otis> But if he has any common sense, he will have a choice -- of using a "preventive" plus lens -- or not.
Otis> It is ture that YOU CAN NOT "PRESCRIBE" the plus in this manner. Rather the engineer-scienctist must look at this kind of experimental and scientific data an reach a conclusion as to HOW MUCH he values his distant vision -- while going thorugh a four year college.
Otis> But that suggests intelligent-control on the part of the person himself -- where he takes presonal control -- and sees the results himself.
But you refuse to understand the concept.
Further:
Young showed it takes constant confinement in a very close space to cause the effect.
Otis> Young used a box where the maximum distance was about 20 inches, (-2.0 diopters) and the average about 16 inches (I recall). The goal was to determine if the natural eye was "dynamic" and the correlation between the refractive status of the natural eye and its average visual enviroment. This was a pure scientific experiment to establish base-line behavior for the natural eye.
Best,
Otis Engineer
Mike Tyner - 11 Jan 2005 00:05 GMT > Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the > one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE > REFRACTIVE CHANGE. If that is his choice -- it is > fine with me. Otis, do 99% of college students shift toward nearsightedness?
-MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 11 Jan 2005 21:50 GMT Dear Mike, Are you just playing dumb? I stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE moves "down" at a rate of -1/3 diopter per year. Hell, even high school students can figure out the implications of that statement.
Or maybe you are not "playing".
I hope you do not regard the people who enter your office as that dumb. If you do then they are in serious trouble.
Best,
Otis Engineer
Neil Brooks - 11 Jan 2005 21:56 GMT Otis Brown wrote:
> It may be that he believes that he will be the > one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE > REFRACTIVE CHANGE. If that is his choice -- it is > fine with me. Mike Tyner replied:
> Otis, do 99% of college students shift toward nearsightedness? Otis Brown wrote:
> Dear Mike, > Are you just playing dumb? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > If you do then they are in > serious trouble. Oh, Otis . . . here you go again. What Mike Tyner did was to deduce a logical conclusion from a statement that /you/ made.
What you're saying here is, basically, "Gee, Mike. when you throw /my own words/ back at me, they really /do/ sound idiotic, don't they?"
Re-read your tripe, Otis. You are your own worst enemy.
Mike Tyner - 11 Jan 2005 23:05 GMT > Are you just playing dumb? > I stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE > moves "down" at a rate of -1/3 diopter per year. Yes, but you also "stated":
> Otis> It may be that he believes that he will be the > one-percent who survives four years with NO NEGATIVE > REFRACTIVE CHANGE. If you believe one percent survives four years without negative refractive change, then you believe 99% DID experience negative refractive change.
Since it doesn't happen, we must assume you simply spout figures without understanding them.
> Hell, even high school students can figure > out the implications of that statement. Is that how you arrived at 99%?
-MT
A Lieberman - 11 Jan 2005 02:11 GMT > Otis> You keep on putting words in my mouth. Sorry, I absolutly do not > believe this. > I believe ONLY what Dr. Hayden stated that the POPULATION AVERAGE > will move "down" (in terms of refractive status) at a rate > of -1/3 diopter per year. I have posted the report. Otis,
Please provide me with Dr. Hayden's publication from an unbiased website supporting the above statement.
Did you have a coffee break with Dr. Hayden on the above and have a friendly chat about the above subject or did he publish his findings?
If he published the findings as you state above, then tell me where he published it. I am sure it can be retrieved from some sort of archives.
Or is Dr. Hayden a made up figure in your imagination.
Allen
Dan Abel - 07 Jan 2005 18:29 GMT > Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their > cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces? When I'm a passenger in an airplane, I'm kind of hoping that the pilot is watching out the window to see where the plane is going.
:-)
 Signature Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS dabel@sonic.net
visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 15:13 GMT > > Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their > > cockpits. Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > AIS > dabel@sonic.net Apart from take off and landing pilots are too busy looking at instuments and stewardesses to look out the window. What could they see other than a great expanse of nothingness? Automatic pilot does the flying at altitude. Robin Parsons
otisbrown@pa.net - 10 Jan 2005 04:33 GMT Dear Robin, you old friend, Subject: Please quote me correctly What I stated was that the natural eye is dynamic, and will change its refractive state if: 1. You place a minus lens on it, and 2. Place it is a more-confined visual environment. (Adolescent, young primates.) These proven scientific facts are denied by most, but they are the final engineering-scientific statement about the behavior of the natural eye as a proven, sophisticated system. Please note that I use the term, "refractive status" and did not interpert the measurements.
To reply to your statements.
Otis Brown the engineer talks of myopia being caused by a confined environment.
Otis> I said "change in refractive status". I put no "spin" on the direct measurements of the natural eye's refractive state -- postive or negative.
What is this precisely?
Otis> This is basic "input" versus "output" engineering-scientific testing where you are seeking to determine if the natural eye changes its refractive status and the visual enviroment is changed. The alternative possibility is that tne natural eye does no change. (i.e., the "null hypothesis" in science.)
I can understand that when you suture the eyes of monkeys their eyesight goes to pot.
Otis> This is not about doing anything like that. I am certain that if you suture your eyes shut -- you will not see to well.
What happens when they read a newspaper? Presumably airline pilots are susceptible to myopia confined in their cockpits.
Otis> Your conjecture -- not mine.
Are such conditions relevant to confined apaces?
Otis> Depends what scientific truth you are attempting to establish for the dynamic behavior of the natural eye -- as a sophisticated system.
When is environment confined or unconfined?
Otis> In the case of the primates, the "delta" in the enviroment (in diopters) was about -0.8 diopters. The refractive state changed by -0.79 diopters (following the e ^ ( -t/TAU) function. The correlation coefficient was 0.97. You must use quantitave numbers to provide predicted results. The term "confined" or "unconfined" has virtually no meaning in a scientific context.
Eskimos had no problem in the confinement of their igloos.
Otis> This is a distorted statement -- if you ever read the study conducted by Francis Young. The grandparents who could not read had mostly 20/20 and refarctive status running from zero to 2 or 3 diopters.
Otis> The children had massive degrees of myopia, in some cases running to 88 percent of specific groups of kids. You make a sweeping statement with our any verification or confirmation.
Yet according to Otis submariners are prone to myopia.
Otis> Published report which got me interested in the subject -- and led to conversations with Dr. Ludlam and Dr. Raphaelson -- and others.
Not according to my son who is in submarines.
Otis> Truly a "one" data point.
Thanks, Robin, I enjoyed your review. Best,
Otis
Robin Parsons
Visions...@yahoogroups.com
Philip D Izaac - 10 Jan 2005 06:57 GMT > Dear Robin, you old friend, > Subject: Please quote me correctly [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > groups of kids. You make a sweeping statement > with our any verification or confirmation. Their granparents did not live in igloos then?
> Yet according to Otis submariners are > prone to myopia. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Visions...@yahoogroups.com A Lieberman - 23 Dec 2004 02:56 GMT > Dear Allen, > > Do we have proof that Allen Liberman exists? Gosh Otis, for the first time, I have to agree with you. Does Allen Liberman exist? Not to my knowledge.
Quick check on the internet would validate my existence on a goverment site that has public records. I would think this is more then what you can provide. You may want to verify your spelling of my name. If you can't even get my name right, as usual, what makes me think anything you post is right?
> As far as Herb Black is concerned -- he his > is right to privacy -- to avoid being > hasselled by the likes of Jan-OD (must be destroyed), > and others. Why does Herb have to worry? I doubt that Herb Black exists. Just like Shawn and any other names you have dropped on this group.
Not one name is willing to come foreward to support your position. Mighty suspicious one would think. Or would one think that all these names you post are fake.
I would suspect the second thought that these subjects you post are fake since nobody will come forward to support your position.
Allen
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 03:46 GMT Dear Allen,
The truth is that it hardly matters whether you exist -- or do not.
What matters is that the people concerned with this issue personally verify that they can clear to the required legal standard of 6/1.8cm. If they do this under their own control, then that fact would only matter to THEM.
As far as "who exists", you are free to read my book on
www.i-see.org
And decide if the people there are "real" or in your imagination.
Obviously my sister's children's vision was very important to me -- and to them. They just "worked" the plus -- kept their vision clear.
But, as before, you can not "prescribe" this type of understanding an motivation. They just followed the recommendations of Dr. Raphaelson, Dr. Grosvenor, Dr. Steve Leung, Dr. Francis Young, and other gifted scientists.
But it was there own efforts that paid off for them.
That is the only issue that matters.
Best,
Otis
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 04:07 GMT Dear Allen Liberman,
As long as your are researching people you claim do not exist, why not run down the following people for me.
Dr. Karel Montor is dead. But what a great guy.
I have lost touch with some -- but if you find them let me know. They are all freinds, and we had some pleasant times together.
Best,
Otis
__________________
ACKNOWLEDGMENT
Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's behavior.
In this effort I have met many fine individuals working in the diverse fields of engineering, ophthalmology, aeronautical education, optometry, and scientific research. In addition, I have been assisted by many friends who have patiently reviewed this analysis and engaged in much discussion and review. The writing of this book was possible only with the assistance of the following individuals:
Paul Romano, MD, University of Florida Peter Greene, PhD, Harvard University Karel Montor, PhD, The United States Naval Academy Dave Guyton, MD, Johns Hopkins University Alfred Sommers, MD, Johns Hopkins Hospital James Tielsch, MD, Johns Hopkins Hospital Lawrence Stark, MD, PhD, Research Scientist Vera Rollo, PhD, Author, Flight Instructor William Ludlam, OD, Research Optometrist Francis Young, PhD, Research Psychologist Alan Shotwell, OD, Research Optometrist Stirling Colgate, PhD, Research Scientist, Los Alamos Howard Howland, PhD, Research Scientist, Cornell University Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates
Dr. Leukoma - 23 Dec 2004 13:40 GMT > In this effort I have met many fine individuals working in the diverse > fields of engineering, ophthalmology, aeronautical education, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist > Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your ideas about myopia prevention?
Or, are you simply 'name-dropping' again?
DrG
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 14:04 GMT > Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your ideas > about myopia prevention? He's saying they've conducted studies comparing groups of myopes wearing "the plus" against groups who wear "the minus" and they've decided to hide their results from the rest of us.
It's a conspiracy, I say.
-MT
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 02:07 GMT >> Are you saying that the above individuals endorse your book and your >> ideas about myopia prevention? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -MT If William Ludlam has published anything like that, I am unaware of it.
DrG
A Lieberman - 24 Dec 2004 00:29 GMT > "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in
>> Howard Howland, PhD, Research Scientist, Cornell University You lose more credibility everytime you post Otis.
I really think you are living in a dream world. You don't answer questions others ask, you provide names that have no foundation, or credibility.
I don't want to take away from the accomplishments of Mr Howland, but he works at the college of Veterinary Medicine. I take it, he is a specialist on human eyes????? He endorses your book of plus therapy??? And he works at a Veterinary College????? Maybe I am missing something?????
I only selected his name out of random. I can't imagine if I delved further in your what appears to be a facticious list of so called names and subjects.
Allen
Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 02:10 GMT >> "otisbrown@pa.net" <otisbrown@pa.net> wrote in > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Allen The same goes for William Ludlam, O.D., who taught at Pacific College of Optometry for many years. Ludlam is better known for work in "neuro- optometry," in the rehabilitation of patients with visual disorders arising from brain trauma.
DrG
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 05:17 GMT Dear Dr G.,
OK, I get it. EVERYONE who does not agree with you, even highly qualiried OPTOMETRISTS must be WRONG because YOU SAY SO.
You are right -- because you say you are right.
With very little science behind you, other than you can spin dials on an phoropter and make vision very sharp with a strong minus lens. And that is your "like of authority".
Interesting!
Best,
Otis
RM - 24 Dec 2004 13:24 GMT No Otis, but instead of showing us the data (which you claim you have exhaustively evaluated over 30 years, so you must have it) you just drop names. First it was a few individual names of old optometrists, now its a list of folk some of whom turn out to be from a Vet school!
Just show us the controlled studies Otis. Its what they do in Science. Its what they do in Medicine.
If you don't have the data, then your ideas are nothing more than a lay persons theory.
-----
> Dear Dr G., > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Otis Dr. Leukoma - 24 Dec 2004 13:34 GMT > Dear Dr G., > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Otis Everything you wrote above applies to you, not to me. I have long thought that you are suffering from some kind of delusion, and this proves it.
There is not an optometrist who participates in this group who agrees with your opinion, hence your use of the term "minority opinion."
Your method of prevention has been put into disrepute by a number of highly qualified and respected scientists.
Show me the proof or go away. This is sci.med.vision, not alt.quackery.
DrG
Neil Brooks - 24 Dec 2004 17:38 GMT So, Otis . . .
Despite my best efforts at adding you and your pet topic to my killfile in every conceivable permutation, here you are again.
A couple quick things:
1) I suppose the bar for "proof" should be lower for you than for the rest of the scientific community because you want it to be? Seems a little narcissistic and self-serving;
2) In the wake of recent events (Aleve, Vioxx, Celebrex, etc.) I'm reminded that scientific hypotheses should be held to the /highest/ of scrutiny before introduced as "safe," "accurate," "state-of-the-art," or "conventional wisdom." Reach for it, Mister. It's up there for you to surmount.
Time and time again, you eagerly and blithely foist your theories on unsuspecting folks who stop by S.M.V. looking for help. The general public must rely on the kindly doctors to alert them to your lack of credentials, potential for harm, and untested hypotheses.
Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye doctors on this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a lock on a huge chunk of change that comes from doing things "their" way. They may be a member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends its wealth by maintaining the status quo. All of this /may/ be true.
But you still come across as a petulant, Napoleonic idiot.
The bar for proving your theories is the same as it is for all others. Go prove your theories (yes, the old fashioned way: proper testing, accurate data, peer-review) and -- if there's a kernel of truth in what you spout -- you'll be rich and you'll be right up there with Bagolini, Heimholz, Donders, Schirmer, Robert A. Strabismus, and all the other paragons whose names are memorialized in ophthalmology/optometry.
Until then, you're a troll . . . who creates risk for unsuspecting, often desperate, people seeking help. "Engineer" in your signature expiates some of your guilt. It does nothing to ameliorate the risk. Perhaps if your signature said, "I am not a doctor. My theories are my own and are not shared by most in the medical community. Consult your doctor."
Neil
Dr. Leukoma - 25 Dec 2004 01:24 GMT > Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye > doctors on this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a > lock on a huge chunk of change that comes from doing things "their" > way. They may be a member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends > its wealth by maintaining the status quo. All of this /may/ be true. OK, let's get something straight around here. My license permits me to use lenses, prisms, therapy, and drugs to treat vision disorders. If there was a way to prevent myopia, some optometrist somewhere will be selling it and reaping the rewards. Otis would not have to advertise, and people would be beating a path to his door. At any given moment, there are any number of myopes who are investigating methods of prevention. The PLUS lens has been around for hundreds of years. If the plus lens was truly effective, the MINUS lens would have little use today. Instead, Otis complains about a vast conspiracy that goes back way before any optometrist ever lived.
Otis craves attention and we give it to him. If you were having a conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away.
DrG
RM - 25 Dec 2004 03:09 GMT > Otis craves attention and we give it to him. If you were having a > conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away. What you are saying is dead on correct.
However, when you are at a cocktail party and some jerk is spouting off and you choose to walk away because you see through his BS, there may be some poor innocent around who doesn't see him for what he is and actually listens and takes him seriously. This is what pisses me off about Otis.
Going back to where we were a month ago, maybe we should just reply with a single "Otis is a troll" warning whenever he posts to this newsgroup.
Neil Brooks - 25 Dec 2004 04:15 GMT Neil Brooks wrote:
>> Look, Otis, I'll allow for the possibility that /all/ of the eye >> doctors on this NG are avaricious, self-serving monsters who have a >> lock on a huge chunk of change that comes from doing things "their" >> way. They may be a member of the vast ocular conspiracy that defends >> its wealth by maintaining the status quo. All of this /may/ be true.
> OK, let's get something straight around here. My license permits me > to use lenses, prisms, therapy, and drugs to treat vision disorders. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Otis craves attention and we give it to him. If you were having a > conversation with him at a cocktail party, you would walk away. Forgive me if my indictment of the doc's on this NG seemed sincere. It wasn't. Hopefully, you've seen other posts where I sing (all of) your praises. I was being facetious, intending to say, "Hey, look. Even if the doctors here /were/ all crooks, you're still an idiot, Otis."
I meant no disrespect. I absolutely agree that, if Otis (or anybody else) genuinely had a safer, better mousetrap, you'd be using it immediately and he'd be living on George Harrison's island.
Can't speak for the doc's here, but I assume the reason that most of you don't usually walk away is that there is risk of leaving people with, at best, false hope and, at worst, risky/dangerous information provided by Otis.
I continue to applaud all of your efforts -- you, the doc's who contribute to this newsgroup.
Best,
Neil
RM - 23 Dec 2004 15:30 GMT > ACKNOWLEDGMENT > > Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review > the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's > behavior. So why don't you just share some of the "direct scientific experimental data" (your words) with us? Certainly you have it after having spent 30 years of exhaustive review. I assume the studies were scientifically valid with randomized controls, double-blinded, statistically valid N values, etc.
And how is it that you could even assess these studies in your exhaustive review since you admit to not having any training on how the eye works?
> Paul Romano, MD, University of Florida > Peter Greene, PhD, Harvard University [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist > Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates I agree-- sounds like name dropping again to me.
When Otis is presented with questions he can't answer he resorts to either ignoring the questions, dropping some expert-sounding names, or trying to kick-up a bunch of dust with equations etc.
Otis, I believe you are actually a nice guy who is really trying to help people. The problem is you have reached a conclusion about a type of therapy that might benefit myopes that seems right to you but isn't proven. Just because you have seen cases where it seems to work (and it really might work on accommodative myopes) and you know of educated people who think like you as well, doesn't mean that that's the way it really works! It must be proven-- and so far it hasn't been. No self-respecting doctor will practice what you are proposing without proof. If you want us to listen to you, then GO PROVE IT.
otisbrown@pa.net - 23 Dec 2004 18:41 GMT Dear RM,
Subject: Scientific knowledge -- and paradigms
What I talk about is the natural eye as a "dynamic system" -- prior to ANY USE of a word that implies "defect". If you wish to believe that a natural eye is "defective" because it has negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding of science -- and not mine. Given that -- I simply do not make ANY medical statement at all. The words have you messed up -- my un-identified friend.
RM > Otis, I believe you are actually a nice guy who is really trying to help people.
Otis> I enjoy people and pleasant conversations. I know how hard "prevention" is, an my goal was to implement the suggestions made by Dr. Raphaelson, and to see if I could get his concept on a "scientific" (not medical) footing.
Otis> I also realized that the person himself must make that decision. I am certain you wish to help also. But I am never going to "fight" over a person with you. That would make no sense at all. The person himself will have to make that decision himself -- in my opinion.
The problem is you have reached a conclusion about a type of therapy that might benefit myopes ...
Otis > I do not talk about "therapy" -- and I think that idea "jumps the gun". It is necessary for the person to look at the alternative himself -- and decide if "prevention" is "right" for him. Thus the question only exists on the threshold -- i.e. before a minus lens is REQUIRED. Only a person who has gone through this "educational" process should make this type of decision -- as pilots have done it.
RM > ... that seems right to you but isn't proven.
Otis> That does depend on the "words" used to describe the natural eye's behavior -- and what the educated person himself considers proof to be. You have profoundly different words to describe this situation -- than I do.
Just because you have seen cases where it seems to work (and it really might work on accommodative myopes)
Otis> It is ALWAYS the person himself who makes that judgment. I consider the person to be intellectually competent -- under the right circumstances to make that decision. Obvously you don't think any one has that competency.
RM > ...and you know of educated people who think like you as well, doesn't mean that that's the way it really works!
Otis> We disagree about whether the natural eye is dynamic (i.e., changes its refractive state with "deltas" in accommodation -- and NOTHING ELSE) We can not know has the natural eye "really works" until you run "input" versus "output" tests on the refractive states of the compltely natural eye.
RM > It must be proven-- and so far it hasn't been.
Otis> That depends on your "medical" perspective verus the scientific perspective of Dr. Colgate and Dr. Francis Young. Young has published 50 plus papers. How many have you published?
No self-respecting doctor will practice what you are proposing without proof.
Otis> A great many thinkg come it to "use" with out proof, among them were the minus lens. It was used because it "worked". But to say "justifiec by science" is a real streach. Even its safety in no proven. This is a "Mexican stand off" my friend.
If you want us to listen to you, then GO PROVE IT.
Otis> I know your ears are stopped up and your eyes are closed. Proof will never occur to you. I will develop among those ODs who will finally start their own children in the plus -- before they go lower than zero diopters.
Otis> Obviously this does depend on the ODs judgment of the experimental data itself -- and to that extent it depends on Steve Leung's judgement.
Best,
Otis
Mike Tyner - 23 Dec 2004 20:28 GMT > What I talk about is the natural eye as a "dynamic system" -- prior > to ANY USE of a word that implies "defect". Who uses the word "defect"? You never answer. You run and hide from the difficult questions.
> If you wish to > believe that a natural eye is "defective" because it has > negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding > of science -- and not mine. The sad fact is you don't know how absurd this is. Do you consider a negative electrical charge "defective?"
Would you please suggest some other description for regions on a number line to the left and right of zero? Until you do, I'll stick with what they teach from the third grade up.
> Given that -- I simply do not > make ANY medical statement at all. If you say so, it must be true. Juries don't care, but you don't acknowledge that because you haven't had to defend your practices in court. You are free to run and hide.
> Otis> I enjoy people and pleasant conversations. I know how > hard "prevention" is, an my goal was to implement the > suggestions made by Dr. Raphaelson, and to see if > I could get his concept on a "scientific" (not medical) footing. So did Dr. Raphaelson compare groups of myopes wearing plus to groups wearing minus? Run and hide if you don't have an answer.
> Otis > I do not talk about "therapy" -- and I think that idea > "jumps the gun". You seem to have misplaced your dictionary. If *you* don't call it therapy, it must not *be* therapy. Is that how it works? You run and hide if we hold you to professional standards.
> It is necessary for the person to look > at the alternative himself -- and decide if "prevention" is > "right" for him. Thus the question only exists on > the threshold -- i.e. before a minus lens is REQUIRED. > Only a person who has gone through this "educational" process > should make this type of decision -- as pilots have done it. So where are the comparisons between groups of pilots who have "done it" and those who have not "done it?" No answer?
> Otis> That does depend on the "words" used to describe > the natural eye's behavior -- and what the educated person > himself considers proof to be. You have profoundly different > words to describe this situation -- than I do. Who else uses your "words?" Do Dr. Raphaelson or Dr. Leung avoid using the term "myopia" or "minus"? No answer?
Myopia is NOT a "negative refractive state". It is an excessively POSITIVE refractive state where the lenses that neutralize it were arbitrarily denoted as "negative." You would think it absurd if we said electrons always move from the "plus" terminal of a battery to the "minus" terminal.
> Otis> It is ALWAYS the person himself who makes that judgment. But you want us to change our standards of practice. Anecdotes won't do that. Comparisons will. Where are your comparisons? Are you hiding them?
> I consider the person to be intellectually competent -- under the > right circumstances to make that decision. Obvously you > don't think any one has that competency. That isn't how science is done, except in your imagination. If you don't agree with professional standards, they must not exist?
> Otis> We disagree about whether the natural eye is > dynamic (i.e., changes its refractive state with "deltas" in > accommodation -- and NOTHING ELSE) No, you said we disagreed on many basic definitions, just as we disagree with your calling myopia a "negative refractive state".
> We can not know has the natural eye "really works" until > you run "input" versus "output" tests on the refractive states > of the compltely natural eye. Please show us a human study comparing myopes wearing plus with those wearing minus. I've found a few but they all disagree with you so naturally, they don't exist or they must be wrong.
> Otis> That depends on your "medical" perspective verus > the scientific perspective of Dr. Colgate and Dr. Francis Young. > Young has published 50 plus papers. How many have > you published? Where has Dr. Young or Dr. Colgate published a comparison of myopes wearing plus versus myopes who don't? You never answer because they haven't.
> Otis> A great many thinkg come it to "use" with out proof, > among them were the minus lens. It was used because > it "worked". But to say "justifiec by science" is a > real streach. Even its safety in no proven. This > is a "Mexican stand off" my friend. Please show us a study attributing harm to minus lenses. I showed you two studies where those who removed their glasses GOT WORSE FASTER. You ignored me, just as you run and hide from all the difficult questions.
> Otis> I know your ears are stopped up and your eyes > are closed. Proof will never occur to you. I will develop > among those ODs who will finally start their own > children in the plus -- before they go lower than > zero diopters. Proof consists of comparisons between those wearing minus and those who don't. Where are your comparisons? You imagine the proof is out there somewhere, but you never cite the article.
> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind > In near environments confined. > No matter that he didn't fix > Myopia with his bag of tricks. -MT
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 04:45 GMT Dear Mike,
Let me remind you that Jan has stated that the concept that the natural eye is dynamic "... must be destroyed".
Do you really think we are going to have an intelligent discussion about the dynamic behavior of a sophisticated competent system -- beyond that point?
Proof is in the mind of the man who balances ideas and concepts -- and examines the facts with these analytic ideas in mind. You mind slammed shut a long time ago -- with due respect.
Proof consists of comparisons between those wearing minus and those who
don't.
Where are your comparisons? You imagine the proof is out there somewhere, but you never cite the article.
Otis> I am always willing to discuss scientific (not medical) proof conderning the dynamic behavior of the fundamental eye -- with people who are reasonable. From Jan's comment -- I conclude you are not reasonable on a scientific level.
Otis> The person who is working to clear his vision (from -2.5 diopters) should consider this very carefully -- because this issue of a "second opinion", honest choice, and making all the measurements YOUSELF are critical to HIS long term visual welfare. You are hopeless in this endeavor my friend. Your are not part of ther solution -- you are part of the problem -- and don't know it.
> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind You idiot. Francis Young did no such thing. I put this down to your total ignorance, of such testing or a desire to twist words to maintain "your position".
> In near environments confined. Otis> The refractrive status of these natrual eyes, (test group relative to control group) changed, following the expected e ^ ( -t / tau ) function. According to your box-camera theory (Donder-Helmholtz) there could be, must not be, any change. The predictive accuracy of your equation is very poor indeed.
> No matter that he didn't fix > Myopia with his bag of tricks. Otis> A person himself can gradually come to a "better conclusion", if he is given the power to make all the critical measurements.
Otis> It takes strong motivation to do this type of work. In time, the proof, and that persons succes depend on an accurate assessment of the eye's behavior as a sophisticated system, and not in repeating the same method that was put in place 400 years ago because a "quick fix" works instantly.
Best,
Otis cc: Young men who are doning the "honest" work of true-prevention.
Mike Tyner - 24 Dec 2004 06:56 GMT > Let me remind you that Jan has stated that the concept > that the natural eye is dynamic "... must be destroyed". Let me remind you that you continue to offer medical advice using similarly inflammatory nonsense like "the wretched minus."
Please produce some evidence that myopes wearing minus get any worse than myopes who don't. THEN we can have an "intelligent discussion."
> Proof is in the mind of the man who balances ideas > and concepts -- and examines the facts with > these analytic ideas in mind. Perhaps for you. For licensed doctors, proof is in published comparisons between groups wearing and not wearing minus. Where do you find that information? Tell us. We want to see it.
No answer.
> Otis> I am always willing to discuss scientific (not medical) > proof conderning the dynamic behavior of the fundamental > eye -- with people who are reasonable. So please discuss the evidence you've found that myopes who wear glasses get more nearsighted than myopes who don't.
No answer.
> From Jan's > comment -- I conclude you are not reasonable on > a scientific level. And from your lack of response, I gather that faith is the evidence of things not seen.
> Otis> The person who is working to clear his vision > (from -2.5 diopters) should consider this very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > friend. Your are not part of ther solution -- you > are part of the problem -- and don't know it. Please give us some evidence that myopes who wear glasses get more nearsighted that myopes who don't. No answer.
>> Sir Francis Young made monkeys blind > > You idiot. Francis Young did no such thing. > I put this down to your total ignorance, of > such testing or a desire to twist words > to maintain "your position". Did not Francis Young make monkeys myopic by raising them in a closed environment?
Did you not say that myopia was "permanent loss of distant vision?"
>> In near environments confined. > > Otis> The refractrive status of these natrual eyes, > (test group relative to control group) changed, following > the expected e ^ ( -t / tau ) function. If you say so. Young made monkeys myopic. Weisel said it worked in some species but not others, and that all species stopped responding that way at some age. Young didn't make monkeys better with plus lenses.
> According to your > box-camera theory (Donder-Helmholtz) there could > be, must not be, any change. You only imagine that's what I think. Box cameras don't change. Human eyes do.
> The predictive accuracy > of your equation is very poor indeed. I haven't proposed an equation. OTOH, your understanding of risk attribution is very poor indeed.
>> No matter that he didn't fix >> Myopia with his bag of tricks. > > Otis> A person himself can gradually come to a "better conclusion", > if he is given the power to make all the critical measurements. Science isn't done that way. We compare groups, not anecdotes.
> Otis> It takes strong motivation to do this type of work. > In time, the proof, and that persons succes depend > on an accurate assessment of the eye's behavior > as a sophisticated system, and not in repeating > the same method that was put in place 400 years > ago because a "quick fix" works instantly. Please show us your evidence where plus lenses reduced anatomical myopia. We really want to know. No answer.
> cc: Young men who are doning the "honest" > work of true-prevention. Please show us your comparisons where "honest work" made anatomical myopia better. No answer.
-MT
> Dear RM, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > negative or positive refractive states -- that is YOUR misunderstanding > of science -- and not mine. You, and only you, are the one Otis, who wants to use the words ''defect'' and ''defective'' You, and only you Otis, do not want to use the real important word in these matters. The word is ''error'' nothing more nothing less and it does not implies what you are trying to let us say. This word ''error'' is used in one breath with the word ''refractive'' The combination is ''refractive error''
One of the ''refractive errors'' is called myopia, one of the very few scientifically words that came out of your mouth. Another ''refractive error'' is called hyperopia, a word that you NEVER want to use. None ''refractive error'' is called emmetropia, another scientifically word wich you refuse to use. Rember Otis, all of the types of ''refractive errors'' do exist in normal functioning eyes. The even could be pointed out in ''defective'' eyes.
Given that -- I simply do not
> make ANY medical statement at all. That's clear. And, you are not making ANY scientifically statement to.
 Signature Free to Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be destroyed.
Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
otisbrown@pa.net - 24 Dec 2004 05:14 GMT Dear Jan,
You have declared yourself a "God". where you "know everything" and everyone else must be "wrong" because they don't agree with you.
You are like the "inquisition", were you act like the "defender of the faith", rather than a rational thoughtful person willing to consider new concepts to represent the dynamic nature of the fundamental eye -- on a SCIENTIFIC, (not medical) leve.
Best,
Otis
LarryDoc - 24 Dec 2004 18:01 GMT Round and round and round we go and where we stop...............
we dont.
Duh.
> Dear Jan, > > You have declared yourself a "God". Impossible Otis, I'm a humanist.
> where you "know everything" and > everyone else must be "wrong" > because they don't agree with you. Comparing to your knowledge in eyecare I'm certain my knowledge is of a higher level than yours is Otis. Knowing everything is impossible Otis, I wish you regognize this for your own sake. The majority here, the exception is that weird Italian, in this newsgroup disagree strongly with a person called Otis Brown on his idea how to prevent myopia, are those disagrements making you ''everyone'' Otis? I and others have told you why whe disagree and this is done with argements wich you could not refute, more stronger you never tried.
You are talking like a charlatan again Otis.
 Signature Free to Marcus Porcius Cato: ''Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam"
I declare that Otis idea about preventing myopia in humans must be destroyed.
Jan (normally Dutch spoken)
visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 16:22 GMT > Dear Allen Liberman, > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Maurice Brumer, OD, Research Optometrist > Ron Berger, OD, Child Diagnostics and Treatments Associates These seem influential people. Does Otis imply that all or anyone on this list is in agreement with his Plus Lens Therapy? I myself could furnish a list as long as your arm and everyone as big an idiot as I. This name dropping technique of which Otis is so fond is hardly evidence of the efficacy of his miraculous myopia treatment. Robin Parsons
RM - 09 Jan 2005 17:11 GMT >> ACKNOWLEDGMENT >> >> Over the past thirty years I have made an exhaustive effort to review >> the experimental data that allows us to accurately judge the eye's >> behavior. This is the experimental data we are talking about Otis. If you have reviewed it exhaustively please share it with us. What evidence is there that plus lenses prevent myopia in a controlled study? What evidence it there that minus lenses negatively affect the eye-- controlled statistically valid studies, not case reports of "engineer-pilots who are intelligent and attend a 4-year college".
Dan Abel - 23 Dec 2004 19:35 GMT > What matters is that the people concerned with this issue > personally verify that they can clear to the required > legal standard of 6/1.8cm. If they do this under their > own control, then that fact would only matter to THEM. What *really* matters is whether you can win the California lottery. A recent survey of lottery winners reveals that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WON THE LOTTERY! Therefore, if you buy a lottery ticket, you have a 100% chance of winning.
 Signature Dan Abel Sonoma State University AIS dabel@sonic.net
visionsenz@aol.com - 09 Jan 2005 15:21 GMT I can heartily recommend Otis Brown's book on Plus Lens Therapy. The de luxe leather bound edition comes with a white stick and tame guide dog. Robin Parsons
|
|
|