Medical Forum / General / Vision / November 2004
Lasik Questions: Canada?, Wavefront?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
S Wilson - 17 Nov 2004 20:52 GMT As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got some questions:
I am considering going to Windsor Canada to get lower cost, more experienced surgeons who use the latest equipment. I'm sure surgeons in the area don't have the experience and can't pay for the best equipment with the lower volume. Are there any real drawbacks to going to Canada, besides the distance to go for post op etc.?
Can anyone recommend any surgeons in Windsor?
I am moderately nearsighted (~6-6.5 D) and have been doing some research. It seems as if custom wavefront has a better chance of best outcome. Is it worth it?
Thanks, Scott
RM - 17 Nov 2004 23:20 GMT > As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got > some questions: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with the lower volume. Are there any real drawbacks to going to Canada, > besides the distance to go for post op etc.? No, not really. It is true that there are many experienced refractive surgeons in Canada. The tough restrictions that the FDA proposes in this country before they allow a procedure to be performed makes it very hard for new methods to be available here first. In Canada the regulations are looser so many surgical procedures are performed there for years before they are allowed to be performed here.
The number one thing you need to be sure of, no matter where you get your procedure, is that you trust the doctor. You need to go to a doctor that has a good reputation, that has done a lot of procedures, and that you can get to relatively quickly if you need follow-up care. Since you live in Northern Michigan, this latter point may not be a problem for you. I live further south and I do not recommend to my patients to go to Canada for LASIK just because of the difficulty with follow-up care.
> Can anyone recommend any surgeons in Windsor? Sorry, I can't help you there.
> I am moderately nearsighted (~6-6.5 D) and have been doing some > research. It seems as if custom wavefront has a better chance of best > outcome. Is it worth it? You would appear to be an ideal candidate for refractive surgery. Although the data is not in yet, I do believe that over the long haul the outcomes should be somewhat better for wavefront techniques. That's what I would choose if I were you.
> Thanks, > Scott P.S.-- do not try to save a few hundred dollars just to get the cheapest LASIK procedure. Find a good experienced doctor who you can return to quickly if you have problems.
Good Luck. I think you will do well.
Dennis Rekuta - 18 Nov 2004 01:53 GMT Living in Windsor, I would suggest that perhaps Dr. Fouad Tayfour at the Windsor Lazer Eye Institute might be one of the more experienced and reputable ophthalmic surgerons in Windsor. I would defer to others in regards to the travel time for follow up care, it is an extremely valid point. RM's point about only considering the dollar savings is correct.
Several ophthalmalogists I have have sent me to his Institute for specialized tests, and my regular ophthalmalogist has sent me to see a specialist that shares office space with him for the last few years. I only know of Dr. Tayfour himself by reputation.
Their web site is: http://www.wlei.com/site/index.html
Dennis (Glaucoma, Branch Retinal Vein Occlusion 1993)
> > As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got > > some questions: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Good Luck. I think you will do well. LarryDoc - 18 Nov 2004 03:47 GMT I've got to put in my two cents here. Your reply, "RM", Disguised Doc, is without merit.
> "S Wilson" <swils@traverse.com> > > As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got > > some questions: some text omitted
> > I am moderately nearsighted (~6-6.5 D) and have been doing some > > research. It seems as if custom wavefront has a better chance of best [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > should be somewhat better for wavefront techniques. That's what I would > choose if I were you.
> Good Luck. I think you will do well. Ideal candidate? Really? How do you know? You don't know the person's cornea thickness, pupil size, medications, medical history, not to mention his actual refractive error. And, as far as wavefront is concerned, the "long haul outcomes" are completely unknown. The near-term outcomes are clearly not nearly as good as predicted.
So you really think the person "will do well" ? How do you know?
--LB, O.D.
RM - 18 Nov 2004 13:20 GMT > I've got to put in my two cents here. Your reply, "RM", Disguised Doc, > is without merit. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > --LB, O.D. Of course no one can be KNOW if anyone is an ideal candidate until they have an evaluation. Thats why I said "you would APPEAR to be and ideal candidate."
With regards to corneal thickness, how many patients have you had who have a refractive error of approximately -6.00 to -6.50 that have too thin of a cornea for refractive surgery? Such people would be quite rare in the general population.
The patients non-ocular medical history and their current medications are unlikely to have any significant influence on refractive surgery outcomes.
You have a point about pupil size. It should have been mentioned in my reply.
With regards to wavefront technology, I would agree that it's promise has not been born out. Yet I believe it is still an incremental improvement over traditional LASIK and would recommend it on that basis. If you were given the choice of traditional LASIK versus custom wavefront LASIK, which would you choose?
Let me restate my remarks to S Wilson: "I believe you will be an excellent candidate for LASIK surgery, barring any high level of astigmatism (~2.00 diopters or more) or significant corneal disorders (degenerative diseases, scarring from previous traumas) that you might not have told us about. Pupil size is an issue that needs to be considered. The final determination must be made by the surgeon. I expect that you will likely have a positive outcome although I cannot be sure" And finally "Please let us know the results of you experience"
Yours anonymously, RM Ph.D. O.D.
LarryDoc - 18 Nov 2004 17:31 GMT Sorry, doc, but I have to take serious exceptions to your comments. The primary one being: that is not acceptable to present medical advice to patients without a clear knowledge of their medical history unless that caveat is so included. You are simply wrong that medical history is not an issue for refractive surgery. Most of what follows is from the US FDA printed patient information on LASIK.
> Of course no one can be KNOW if anyone is an ideal candidate until they have > an evaluation. Thats why I said "you would APPEAR to be and ideal > candidate." Like I said, spin it any way you want, but you have no idea if he/she is or is not "an ideal candidate."
> With regards to corneal thickness, how many patients have you had who have a > refractive error of approximately -6.00 to -6.50 that have too thin of a > cornea for refractive surgery? Such people would be quite rare in the > general population. How rare it is is not the issue. The consequences of operating on such an individual can be devestating. See below.
> The patients non-ocular medical history and their current medications are > unlikely to have any significant influence on refractive surgery outcomes. So completely wrong here that I will quote from the US FDA LASIK guidelines. It is quite specific:
----begin copy/paste text---- General risk factors and contraindications for LASIK refractive surgery;
* In their early 20s or younger, * Whose hormones are fluctuating due to disease such as diabetes, * Who are pregnant or breastfeeding, or * Who are taking medications that may cause fluctuations in vision, * You have a disease or are on medications that may affect wound healing. Certain conditions, such as autoimmune diseases (e.g., lupus, rheumatoid arthritis), immunodeficiency states (e.g., HIV) and diabetes, and some medications (e.g., retinoic acid and steroids) may prevent proper healing after a refractive procedure
-----end text----
Following that bit of information, the FDA goes on to point out various OCULAR DISEASE contraindications to LASIK.
---begin copy/paste text---
Precautions The safety and effectiveness of refractive procedures has not been determined in patients with some diseases. Discuss with your doctor if you have a history of any of the following:
* Herpes simplex or Herpes zoster (shingles) involving the eye area.
* Glaucoma, glaucoma suspect, or ocular hypertension.
* Eye diseases, such as uveitis/iritis (inflammations of the eye)
* Eye injuries or previous eye surgeries.
* Keratoconus
Other Risk Factors Your doctor should screen you for the following conditions or indicators of risk:
* Blepharitis. Inflammation of the eyelids with crusting of the eyelashes, that may increase the risk of infection or inflammation of the cornea after LASIK. * Large pupils. Make sure this evaluation is done in a dark room. Younger patients and patients on certain medications may be prone to having large pupils under dim lighting conditions. This can cause symptoms such as glare, halos, starbursts, and ghost images (double vision) after surgery. In some patients these symptoms may be debilitating. For example, a patient may no longer be able to drive a car at night or in certain weather conditions, such as fog.
* Thin Corneas. The cornea is the thin clear covering of the eye that is over the iris, the colored part of the eye. Most refractive procedures change the eyes focusing power by reshaping the cornea (for example, by removing tissue). Performing a refractive procedure on a cornea that is too thin may result in blinding complications.
* Previous refractive surgery (e.g., RK, PRK, LASIK). Additional refractive surgery may not be recommended. The decision to have additional refractive surgery must be made in consultation with your doctor after careful consideration of your unique situation.
* Dry Eyes. LASIK surgery tends to aggravate this condition.
----end text---
And remember this comes from the FDA, the people who brought you thalidomide and VIOXX. So you might think about what is not said.
Or, of course, we could just take it as it is, which is IMHO, a pretty reasonable disclosure. But I digress.
> With regards to wavefront technology, I would agree that it's promise has > not been born out. Yet I believe it is still an incremental improvement > over traditional LASIK and would recommend it on that basis. And I'm all in favor of improvement!
>If you were > given the choice of traditional LASIK versus custom wavefront LASIK, which > would you choose? Continuous wear silicon hydrogel contact lenses. Or wait for technology to give us replaceable/removable imbedded contact lenses or cornea molding/keratoplasty. Or even ICLs. Something that does not permanently alter human tissue by removing it.
Although I am not an active promoter of LASIK as you appear to be, I am very much demanding of full and clear disclosure (with information that relates specifically to their issues) to patients considering medical treatment for anything.
I apologize if it seems I'm being hard on you about this. But we must remain aware that lay people read this stuff on the internet and some of them look only for what they want to hear, not necessarily getting the big picture. It's OK to promote your own view point as long as it is clear that is what it is. When it comes to medical advice, we have to extra vigilant not to persuade but to inform without bias.
Regards,
Larry
Dr. Leukoma - 19 Nov 2004 00:54 GMT I agree with you on this one, Larry.
DrG
> Sorry, doc, but I have to take serious exceptions to your comments. > The primary one being: that is not acceptable to present medical [quoted text clipped - 132 lines] > > Larry RM - 19 Nov 2004 03:51 GMT After reading your reply, I think I would have to agree with you also.
I agree that overstated my opinion to S. Wilson that he would be a good LASIK candidate without having complete information. My attempt at giving an upbeat reply to his inquiry could potentially mislead some lay person into thinking that making such a determination is simple and straightforward. Your reply pointed out a number of caveats that should be considered.
I stand corrected!
RM
-------------------
>I agree with you on this one, Larry. > [quoted text clipped - 136 lines] >> >> Larry S Wilson - 19 Nov 2004 13:48 GMT Thank you for your reply RM. Your initial reply was exactly what I was looking for. Of course I realize that no one can tell me whether or not I am a good candidate without an exam. I didn't really want to start a bunch of infighting in the group. All I wanted was some other opinions.
Thanks again.
> After reading your reply, I think I would have to agree with you also. > [quoted text clipped - 151 lines] > >> > >> Larry -- Scott Wilson Sailsport Marine Phone: 231-929-2330 Fax: 231-929-7130 Web: www.sailsportmarine.com E-mail: sw@sailsportmarine.com
Louis Pasteur - 19 Nov 2004 04:21 GMT I am working at a quality LASIK center. -6.50 spherical correction is quite within the safety zone for LASIK and even so is easily accomplished with LASEK. Custom wavefront ablations are definitely superior to standard LASIK. Most systemic medical diseases have little practical influence on refractive surgical outcomes except diabetes and disorders affecting wound healing. Even these might be carefully handled. Ocular disorders of concern include scarring, herpes, and history of uveitis but these also can be handled.
OD's have nothing to fear from LASIK. Why be so negative about the methodology LarryDoc? I would bet Scott would be a good LASIK candidate but perhaps he needs to provide a little more info to be sure.
> Sorry, doc, but I have to take serious exceptions to your comments. The > primary one being: that is not acceptable to present medical advice to [quoted text clipped - 127 lines] > > Larry LarryDoc - 19 Nov 2004 07:27 GMT > I am working at a quality LASIK center. -6.50 spherical correction is > quite within the safety zone for LASIK and even so is easily [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > candidate but perhaps he needs to provide a little more info to be > sure. You and your disingenuous business partners have resorted to selling a product when you should instead be offering a medical technology based treatment.
It's become a game of sales gimmicks and zealotry----that's what I fear, not the technology. It's a noble cause to help improve the quality of someone's life. It is disgusting to sell it like a commodity, even if it did not have inherent risks as does refractive surgery. You are caught up in the marketing--here's how:
Line one: "quality LASIK center" You're one of the better ones, eh? Line two: key words: "safety zone" "easily accomplished" Come on down! Line three: "definitely superior to standard" Only the best, but sadly no proof to your statement. Next few lines: issues of little practical influence because they are easily handled. I think the FDA and the AAO would take issue with that.
I believe I've made my point. In my previous post, respectfully acknowledged by my colleagues. (Thanks!)
Larry
Louis Pasteur - 22 Nov 2004 14:54 GMT > You and your disingenuous business partners have resorted to selling a > product
> It's become a game of sales gimmicks and zealotry
> You are caught up in the marketing--here's how: > > Line one: "quality LASIK center" You're one of the better ones, eh?
> Line two: key words: "safety zone" "easily accomplished" Come on down! You do not know where I work. How can you make such insulting remarks. I work at a private MD office. We are extremely meticulous about choosing the right patients for refractive surgery. This is not a "puppy-mill". Such places do exist. You like to believe that all LASIK practices are like this. This shows your ignorance.
> I believe I've made my point. Yes, I think you have made it clear the kind of person you are. The train has left the station and you aren't on it. Try to make your arguments under the veil of protecting the health of the patient-- but your ignorance and fear shows through. You don't like LASIK so you attack anyone who supports it's use.
> Larry RM - 23 Nov 2004 14:03 GMT > You do not know where I work. How can you make such insulting > remarks. I work at a private MD office. We are extremely meticulous > about choosing the right patients for refractive surgery. This is not > a "puppy-mill". Such places do exist. You like to believe that all > LASIK practices are like this. I think you are making an important point here. There are two basic groups of LASIK practices (I am oversimplifying a bit but bear with me). There are corporate LASIK centers and there are private MD/group practice offices.
The corporate LASIK centers usually do nothing else but LASIK. They have a mentality where volume of patients is the key. They advertise a lot, discount, and market aggressively. These tend to be the low-price LASIK outfits.
The private MD/group practice LASIK offices are generally ophthalmologists who offer lots of different medical eyecare treatments(cataract surgery, diabetic treatment, glaucoma treatment, etc.). Their approach has been to add LASIK technology to their repetoire of services they can offer. They may also market and advertise LASIK. They are generally not the lowest-price place you can go, but they tend to place a high value on patient care and patient satisfaction as anyone would who has a longstanding practice and a reputation to uphold.
I recommend to all my patients to go to the latter type of LASIK practice (i.e. the private MD/group practice office). Sure you will pay extra but your vision is not the place to try to save a few hundred bucks! I have worked for a time at such a place and I was impressed by the quality of the eyecare and the concern for patient well-being. We discouraged low myopes or patients who had insignificant refractive errors where the risk of doing harm approached the risk of helping someone with their vision. It was the most boring job I ever had-- the patients were mostly all 20/20 after the procedure and represented little challenge from an optometric standpoint.
In my local area we have a couple of corporate LASIK centers in practice too. One of them uses a part-time osteopathic medical doctor to perform the treatment!! Can you believe it-- not even a board-certified ophthalmologist. He works there 2-3 days a week and then goes to a different center to work as well. They will perform low-cost LASIK on anyone who is trying to save money and they will use the older equipment/technology in doing so. They will do LASIK on almost anyone who goes there no matter how little improvement it will offer them. Unfortunately LASIK technology has been given a black-eye by some these corporate LASIK centers. So IMHO I would just avoid them!
My point is simply this--- prospective patients should do their investigation thoroughly and go to the best place for their LASIK evaluation/treatment. Given that a patient finds the right doctor/practice and they indeed are found to be a good LASIK candidate, it is my professional opinion and experience that the procedure is quite straightforward and quite safe. I am positive about LASIK technology. Not all optometrists agree with me.
==========
>> I believe I've made my point. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >> Larry Dr. Leukoma - 24 Nov 2004 02:32 GMT >> You do not know where I work. How can you make such insulting >> remarks. I work at a private MD office. We are extremely meticulous [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > patient satisfaction as anyone would who has a longstanding practice > and a reputation to uphold. I hate to contradict you here, but the largest volume LASIK practices in the North Texas area are not 'chains.' In every respect they meet the definition of LASIK mills, but they are not corporate.
> I recommend to all my patients to go to the latter type of LASIK > practice (i.e. the private MD/group practice office). Sure you will [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the procedure and represented little challenge from an optometric > standpoint. Agreed.
> In my local area we have a couple of corporate LASIK centers in > practice too. One of them uses a part-time osteopathic medical doctor [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > by some these corporate LASIK centers. So IMHO I would just avoid > them! I do not share your opinion of osteopathic physicians. One of the best ocular pathologists with whom I am acquainted is an osteopathic physician. How do you feel about optometrists performing PRK in places such as Oklahoma?
> My point is simply this--- prospective patients should do their > investigation thoroughly and go to the best place for their LASIK [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > procedure is quite straightforward and quite safe. I am positive about > LASIK technology. Not all optometrists agree with me. What about surface ablation as compared to lamellar surgery? As the single largest group of primary vision care professionals, we ought to take a stronger position. If lamellar surgery isn't in the best interests of the public, shouldn't we be saying so? What happened to that once coveted thing called a spine?
DrG
> ========== > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>> Larry RM - 24 Nov 2004 14:54 GMT >> I think you are making an important point here. There are two basic >> groups of LASIK practices (I am oversimplifying a bit but bear with [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > the North Texas area are not 'chains.' In every respect they meet the > definition of LASIK mills, but they are not corporate. I certainly don't mind being contradicted! :) As I said, I am oversimplifying in my post but I think in general there is a core truth to it. The national chain corporate laser centers (e.g. LCAV) are the places I am talking about. Really every LASIK practice tries to be high volume simply because they have to disperse the high fixed costs of the laser equipment.
>> I recommend to all my patients to go to the latter type of LASIK >> practice (i.e. the private MD/group practice office). Sure you will [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > How do you feel about optometrists performing PRK in places such as > Oklahoma? Recall that I qualified my statements from the beginning with "I am oversimplifying a bit" but I think there is a core truth to what I posted. I did not state any opinion about osteopathic physicians in general. However I have never met one who is a specialist in eye care. Maybe you know some and my apologies to you/them if you think my remarks were offensive. The D.O. I was speaking about has no specialized eye training other than being trained by LCAV and possibly in-house by VISX directly. I would want someone who performed surgery on my eyes to have a deeper understanding of corneal physiology/pathology than that.
With regard to optometrists performing PRK, I think that a therapeutic-licenced OD (who by the way in my opinion does have specialty eye training) who has also undergone appropriate preparative laser surgery training could indeed be very effective as a PRK laser surgeon.
>> My point is simply this--- prospective patients should do their >> investigation thoroughly and go to the best place for their LASIK [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> procedure is quite straightforward and quite safe. I am positive about >> LASIK technology. Not all optometrists agree with me.
> What about surface ablation as compared to lamellar surgery? As the > single > largest group of primary vision care professionals, we ought to take a > stronger position. If lamellar surgery isn't in the best interests of the > public, shouldn't we be saying so? What happened to that once coveted > thing called a spine? I am not certain what you are asking me. Can you further describe what you mean by "surface ablation as compared to lamellar surgery." Are you referring to corneal implants? Different preparative laser methods?
Most certainly if we have reason to defend the public health of course we need to say something about it.
Dr. Leukoma - 25 Nov 2004 00:37 GMT >> What about surface ablation as compared to lamellar surgery? As the >> single [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Most certainly if we have reason to defend the public health of course > we need to say something about it. By surface ablation, I mean PRK or LASEK.
Our friend "Pasteur" is pushing LASIK, and trying to shame us into accepting it on his terms. LASIK is uniquely suited to the fast-food mentality of surgery. But, is it the best option in every case? What I see is that a relatively small group of surgeons decides what will be the "surgery du-jour," and then we optometrists fall-in. The surface ablation now seems to be staging a revival.
Do you see any discussion of this nature in optometric circles?
DrG
RM - 27 Nov 2004 03:19 GMT > By surface ablation, I mean PRK or LASEK. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > DrG I really am not informed about the pros and cons from a long-term patient health standpoint of "slicing" versus a surface approach for refractive surgery. It's a very good question however and gives me pause for thought. Obviously, having a permanently-weakened slice through your cornea isn't the best thing for a patient. I know that PRK is more painful for the patient, slower to heal, harder to control the final refractive outcome, and not as easy to "touch-up" as LASIK. But I have also heard of flap dislocations that can occur from even incidental oblique contact with an post-LASIK operated eye even years after the surgery. I suppose that corneal clear-cut cataract surgery suffers from the same concern.
Comments anyone?
Dr. Leukoma - 19 Nov 2004 13:04 GMT > I am working at a quality LASIK center. -6.50 spherical correction is > quite within the safety zone for LASIK and even so is easily [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > candidate but perhaps he needs to provide a little more info to be > sure. Some systemic diseases are indeed contraindications for LASIK. Thyroid disease, Sjogren's disease to name a couple. Basically, any sytemic disease that can lead to peripheral neuropathy or dry eyes is a contraindication. Have you ever seen a diabetic person with neurotrophic keratitis? It looks somewhat like post-LASIK neurotrophic keratitis. Have you had many patients with thyroid disease or severe rheumatoid arthritis in your practice? They virtually all have problems with contact lenses because of dry eyes. Now, please don't lecture me on plugs, Restasis, and ocular lubricants. Been there, done that. The kindest thing you can do for such patients is to show them the door.
DrG
S Wilson - 19 Nov 2004 13:54 GMT Thanks Louis, You're right. I have no health issues. I think wavefront is the way I'll go.
> I am working at a quality LASIK center. -6.50 spherical correction is > quite within the safety zone for LASIK and even so is easily [quoted text clipped - 141 lines] > > > > Larry -- Scott Wilson Sailsport Marine Phone: 231-929-2330 Fax: 231-929-7130 Web: www.sailsportmarine.com E-mail: sw@sailsportmarine.com
Ann - 19 Nov 2004 22:58 GMT >I am working at a quality LASIK center. -6.50 spherical correction is >quite within the safety zone for LASIK and even so is easily >accomplished with LASEK. What about someone with only one eye? Would you recommend LASIK then or would you just want to leave well alone?
Ann
Custom wavefront ablations are definitely
>superior to standard LASIK. Most systemic medical diseases have >little practical influence on refractive surgical outcomes except [quoted text clipped - 138 lines] >> >> Larry Robert Martellaro - 18 Nov 2004 17:08 GMT >As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got >some questions: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Thanks, >Scott
>I am moderately nearsighted (~6-6.5 D) and have been doing some >research. Scott,
Pro-con-neutral info regarding refractive surgery.
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/
http://www.journalofrefractivesurgery.com/
http://www.usaeyes.org/
http://www.surgicaleyes.org/
Hope this helps
Robert Martellaro ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Optician/Owner Roberts Optical robopt@execpc.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself." - Richard Feynman
S Wilson - 19 Nov 2004 13:51 GMT Thanks Robert- good info in those links.
> >As someone considering Lasik and living in Northern Michigan, I've got > >some questions: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > "Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself." > - Richard Feynman -- Scott Wilson Sailsport Marine Phone: 231-929-2330 Fax: 231-929-7130 Web: www.sailsportmarine.com E-mail: sw@sailsportmarine.com
|
|
|