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Medical Forum / General / Vision / July 2004Shamir Piccolo vs. Rodenstock "Ultimate"
Anyone know anything about the Rodenstock "Ultimate" progressives at Sam's Club? The literature at the store indicates they are atoric/aspheric, mid-index, and made in Germany. Would these be the same as Multigressiv or other lens? Another option is the Shamir Piccolo (through the local independent optician that fitted me with AO compacts that I disliked and stopped wearing after 3 weeks.) I've been using two pairs of glasses for about 5 years, but have heard that more recent progressive designs have improved. I'm fairly nearsighted (around -4.00?) with a good bit of astigmatism in both eyes. I am very sensitive to slight changes in cylinder axis. The AO compacts caused a lot of peripheral distortion. Thanks. Bill > Anyone know anything about the Rodenstock "Ultimate" progressives at Sam's > Club? The literature at the store indicates they are atoric/aspheric, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Thanks. > Bill Why don't you ask Sam's Club what they are? Bring a list of all the existing Rodenstock models. I went back to Sam's Club, and the optician indicated they are "Life" lenses. She didn't seem sure if they were "life 2" or not. The information on the Multigressiv that I've seen seems to emphasize that they are atoric. (and better for astigmatism?) ("Life" lens is not atoric?) I was confused by the fact that the literature in the store describes their lens as "atoric/aspheric" and something like "individually made to the patient's Rx". Is the Shamir atoric? Does it really matter? BTW, Walmart is selling Zeiss and Seiko progressives, as well as other brands, but the people there don't know exactly what they are and seemed confused by my questions. Another frustration -- there doesn't seem to be much consistency about what kind of lens can be put in a rimless frame. Bill > Why don't you ask Sam's Club what they are? Bring a list of all the existing > Rodenstock models. > I went back to Sam's Club, and the optician indicated they are "Life" > lenses. She didn't seem sure if they were "life 2" or not. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > existing > > Rodenstock models. I would ask if there is another person at Wal-Mart or Sam's who will be in later who might know more about the lenses. You might also try calling them, and calling other Wal-Mart or Sam's stores. In my experience Wal-Mart or Sam's have fairly decent opticians compared to the other chain stores, but usually most such stores have only one expert who may not be available when you inquired. The "individually made to the patient's Rx" means that they are custom cut by a computer and not made from blanks, where the lab has to choose from about 5-7 different blanks (each with a specific base curve) to make the final lens from, none of which are optimal for your individual Rx. This is why the individually made ones are made in Germany. Progressive lenses are etched with identifiers on them, and you can look here to see if you can id them. Most Wal-Marts have this document in my experience. http://katzandklein.com/images/LensIdentifierGreen2002.pdf The only "life" version I see on the Rodenstock website is the Rodenstock Progressiv Life 2, but these do not appear to be made to Rx. The Rodenstock Multigressiv 2 is made to Rx. http://www.rodenstockusa.com/ecp_referenceguide.asp If you know the price of the Rodenstock lens at Sam's, I would be interested in knowing what you find out. With rimless frames, there is always the risk of breakage or cracking when the lenses is drilled or the frame is tightened. Some of the better materials for drilling (polycarbonate) have much worse optics than other lens materials, especially if you have a moderate or strong Rx. It is usually up to the optician or lab as to which lenses they are willing to mount in rimless frame due to warranty and customer satisfaction issues. Also, not all rimless frames are the same. Atoric lenses do not have to be made custom to your Rx like the Rodenstock Multigressiv 2. How much you will benefit from atoric depends somewhat on your Rx. I don't remember if you posted it previously. Thanks for the info, Mark. I didn't post my prescription, because I can't find it. I'll be getting a new one next week. I think it was about a -4.00 in both eyes with a cylinder of maybe 2 or 2.5. As to the Sam's Club price, it is $287 for the frame and lens package. They give you a choice of half a dozen or so frames -- I think they're Chinese frames -- all rimless, I think. The lens they use is a mid-index 1.6, abbe 41. (Also a transition lens is available, but I'm not interested in it.) I noticed on one of the Rodenstock sites that they mention a package deal also including both frame and lens with other commonly desired features like AR. No price included. I've been looking at the USA and Canada sites. Not sure where I saw that. What I'm mostly concerned about is not repeating the experience from 5 years ago -- that the only clear picture was through a "small hole" directly in front of me. Everything else was out of focus. As for Walmart, I was already referred to the guy who "would know that information" but he didn't. I'm not so sure I'll have the nerve to go back. They give you the feeling that you're bothering them by asking picky questions. Do you know anything about the Shamir Piccolo? Bill > > > Why don't you ask Sam's Club what they are? Bring a list of all the > > existing [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Multigressiv 2. How much you will benefit from atoric depends somewhat on > your Rx. I don't remember if you posted it previously. > Thanks for the info, Mark. I didn't post my prescription, because I can't > find it. I'll be getting a new one next week. I think it was about a -4.00 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Bill I don't know anything about Shamir Piccolo. OK, I called 3 Sam's Clubs and got faulty information from them all. I know this because I ended up calling Rodenstock customer service. The lenses sold by Sam's are the Rodenstock Progressive AT (sometimes called Progressive Life AT). They are custom made to your Rx (Automated Prescription Technology and Advanced Surfacing) without an intermediate base curve blank. But they are aspheric only, not aspheric/atoric like the Multigressiv. These custom made lenses (without intermediate base curve blanks) are now made in the US (previously only made in Germany). According to Rodenstock, the Sam's club lenses are 1.56 index material (some Sam's told me 1.53). They cost $287 including a Rodenstock Titanium frame and AR. This sounds like an good deal to me, if you want these lenses and like the frames. I am not an optician, but I think with a moderate -4 sphere Rx, you can get by without atoric surfacing on the back of the lens, and the 1.56 index should be reasonably thin and light. Is your cylinder +2 or 2.5 or is that your add power? The cylinder (with axis in degrees) is for astigmatism correction). Zeiss and Seiko progressives (available at Wal-Mart according to you) are also considered to be excellent products. Which progressives (brand, model, and material) did you have previously that you are not satisfied with? Thanks again, Mark, for all of this helpful information. The glasses I had 5 or 6 years ago were AO Compact in a rather small oval frame. They were probably regular plastic; I'm sure they weren't polycarbonate. As for the prescription, the cylinder and add numbers are similar -- both about 2 or 2.5. That's a lot to put in a small frame, I guess, but I really dislike bigger frames. I expect to use single vision reading glasses when at the computer or reading for an extended period of time. I'm trying to gather as much information as possible before the appointment with the ophthalmologist on Monday. He doesn't supply glasses, so I expect him to give me some objective advice, too. It's really curious how much information can vary depending on source. I'm pretty skeptical about what all the opticians say, and now, even about what they have available in print. Sam's info in writing definitely said 1.6 and atoric/aspheric and made in Germany. BTW, the Zeiss "Experience" as it apparently is called (culled from the net, not Walmart) is a 1.67 semi-finished progressive. The Seiko is a 1.67 too. I would like to deal with the local independent who carries the Shamir (and I like the half-rim Alfred Sung frame), but Sam's guarantee is actually better if I don't like their lenses. > I don't know anything about Shamir Piccolo. > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Which progressives (brand, model, and material) did you have previously that > you are not satisfied with? > Thanks again, Mark, for all of this helpful information. The glasses I had 5 > or 6 years ago were AO Compact in a rather small oval frame. They were [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > like the half-rim Alfred Sung frame), but Sam's guarantee is actually better > if I don't like their lenses. Rodenstock makes the Multgressiv progressive lens which is aspheric/atoric. You can see from the Rodenstock website that the Multigressiv is the only model they have with an atoric back surface. The Multigressiv is made in Germany for the "made to Rx" versions. 1.60 index plastic is available for both the Multigressiv and AT models, but the 1.56 index is a new material for Rodenstock that is only available on the AT, and is offered at the same price as the 1.50 index (CR-39) for a limited time. I would be interested in knowing exactly what you have in writing from Sam's. If it is handwritten notes from the opticians, it is undoubtedly incorrect if it differs from what Rodenstock customer support told me. I called 3 Sam's and they all gave me incorrect information, including claims about products (1.53 index material) that Rodenstock did not even offer. None of them even knew that Rodenstock made several different progressive models. The person I talked to at Rodenstock customer support was familiar with the Sam's offering, so I would tend to believe what I was told by Rodenstock. I am surprised you are getting an exam from an ophthalmologist. They are good if you have some kind of disease or other serious problem, but the worst exam I ever had was from an ophthalmologist. They are medical doctors who do surgery and other complicated eye treatments. Opticians do exams full time and have a lot more experience and direct feedback about the Rx's they write. Don't expect an ophthalmologist to be up to date on the latest lens products--not going to happen, although they may try to fake it. What I saw at Sam's was a three-ring binder full of what looked like in-house publishing, not hand-written notes, explaining various aspects of the Rodenstock lenses. I don't have a copy of it; I assume it's there partly for use by the opticians. As for the ophthalmologist, I've thought about the issues you mentioned, but the doctor comes highly recommended, even by the private optician who has his own optometrist on site. He's also a friend of a friend, and I saw him last year for conjunctivitis and was impressed. I plan to go back to the optician today and pick his brain. My new thought is to get "computer lenses" since I spend 95% of my time indoors wearing my reading prescription anyway. They would also be good, I think, for playing the piano. Bill > Rodenstock makes the Multgressiv progressive lens which is aspheric/atoric. > You can see from the Rodenstock website that the Multigressiv is the only [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > write. Don't expect an ophthalmologist to be up to date on the latest lens > products--not going to happen, although they may try to fake it. > What I saw at Sam's was a three-ring binder full of what looked like > in-house publishing, not hand-written notes, explaining various aspects of > the Rodenstock lenses. I don't have a copy of it; I assume it's there partly > for use by the opticians. You may have been looking at specs for the Multigressiv with the atoric backcurve, which is not one on special for $287 with frame (that would be the AT). I am sure that the AT is also made is Germany, but is now available to be made in the US, but at the Rodenstock factory (as opposed to a large number of independent US labs). Zeiss makes a well known computer lens called the Gradal RD. I don't know if Wal-Mart has these (you said they had another Zeiss lens). But any progressive lens can be used to make computer glasses by varying the Rx. > Thanks again, Mark, for all of this helpful information. The glasses I had 5 > or 6 years ago were AO Compact in a rather small oval frame. They were [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > like the half-rim Alfred Sung frame), but Sam's guarantee is actually better > if I don't like their lenses. I did a little research on the Shamir Piccolo, and based on the useable vision plot on their website, I don't think you will be a happy camper if you buy them. The distance vision is mediocre and the near vision width is pitiful. http://www.shamirlens.com/pic-plots.php Also the Piccolo seems to only be available in 1.5 (CR-39) and polycarbonate (they also have a 1.50 index Transitions and a 1.523 glass lens). CR-39 is too thick and heavy for your Rx, and polycarbonate (1.59) has the worst optics (abbe 30) of almost any lens on the market (although it is good for drilling rimless frames). Also, I would not purchase any progressive that did not have 30 day money back guarantee for non-adaptation (at the sole discretion of the customer), and a remake warranty if the fitting or exam are in error. All the premium lens suppliers offer this warranty. |
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