Medical Forum / General / Vision / May 2004
Otis Brown help me?
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Vile - 23 Apr 2004 20:49 GMT It seems that you are a strong voice for natural vision correction. I was wondering if you could help me correct my vision with natural healing/Bates method/ whatever method?
I am going to the OD on Sat and will get an exam since its been 4 years since my last test. I am sure I am heavy in the negative being nearsighted. I know about palming, sunning and converagance so far. I have been going w/o glasses when I can, only wearing them for work/driving. I am using pinhole glasses for tv watching I made with construction paper which seems to work very well. I have been trying to relax my eyes but I am not sure I am getting anywhere after two weeks.
I would also like a good arguement to give to the OD when I go there because I know I am going to talk to him about the Bates method and it seems he/she will probably be shooting the theory down. How long have you corrected your own vision I wonder and how long did it take doing what techiques?
Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope!
Otis Brown - 25 Apr 2004 05:31 GMT Dear Vile,
I am a "strong voice" that you should learn enough to make a decision FOR prevention BEFORE your vision gets beyond 20/40.
I would not "bother" arguing with your OD about this issue, since you can do it your self if you have the motivation. That means taking personal responsibility to read your own eye chart, and deciding what you wish to do about it.
You can down-load a eye chart from
www.i-see.org
and determine if you can read the 20/40 6/12 line under room illumination conditions. Also check outdoors for a general check.
I talk quite a few people -- and most of them (including the Bates people) will not look at an eye chart!
It is a lot of work to do this -- and most people will quit after a week or so.
The pilots who "stick" with it do not quit. If they start at 20/40 (their own personal checking) they can get to 20/20 (a positive refractive status) in about eight months.
But this is like advocating that a person go on a diet and "lose weight". Most doctors do not bother making the recommendation because they know you are not going to do it -- not to put too sharp a point on it. Or think of it this way:
Most of us would rather believe in the impossible, than to attempt the real.
I wish you well. If your goal is to pass the required Snellen-DMV test, and your vision it 20/50 by your own measurement, then I think you can accomplish that goal. But the results will depend on your personal verification and work.
Just my opinion.
Best,
Otis Engineer
> It seems that you are a strong voice for natural vision correction. I > was wondering if you could help me correct my vision with natural [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Vile - 18 May 2004 20:50 GMT For those pilots you describe that did the plus therapy, could you give a good day or weeks example of what they did exactly? How long did they train for the day?
I have the patience to go the distance on this. But I still have questions about it and I want to do this right and effectively.
> Dear Vile, > [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Otis Brown - 21 May 2004 03:27 GMT vile5@comcast.net (Vile) wrote in message
Dear Vile,
I learned a long time ago that I can not help you!
You can lean to help yourself -- but it is very much a personal decision.
I suggest you read my site in detail -- it is all there.
If you want to contact me -- do so from my site. (It will save all the gnashing of teeth on this site.)
There is no "quick fix" and no guarantees. If a pilot is on the threshold, and is reading is chart at 20/40 -- there is a good probability he can clear his vision to 20/20 in about three to six months. But only the pilot "sees" this result.
Best,
Otis Engineer
news:<a92f2b78.0405181150.f3435c1@posting.google.com>...
> For those pilots you describe that did the plus therapy, could you > give a good day or weeks example of what they did exactly? How long [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Vile - 21 May 2004 18:31 GMT That's fine. I was not looking for quick and easy, that's the laser surgery way anyway. I just wanted some routines the pilots did on a day to day that's all. If that's too much to ask, never mind. On the sight it does not give details like that. It seems you are more interested in debating than helping people which is fine since you give no pretense to it but still you are going to have others besides me ask so there you go.
> vile5@comcast.net (Vile) wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Otis Brown - 22 May 2004 05:28 GMT Dear Vile,
In my opinion, the most important issue you should resolve is your motivation -- and of couse I expect you start this process BEFORE you begin wearing a minus lens.
The minus lens creates "stair-case" myopia.
Your first step should be to check your own vision on your eye chart. Establish where you stand without your minus lens on. If you want to have any confidence in ANY results you achieve, that is the first step.
Assuming you read at 20/40 to 20/60, (about -1/2 to -1.0 diopters, depending on the OD), you must reduce the power of the plus by that amount. (Simple optical physics of a "box camera".)
What you would do (after verifying 20/50 vision) is to obtain a lens strong enough to "just blur" the letters of your reading material. This is to ensure that the plus you have chosen has maximum preventive effect.
Thus if you habitual reading distance is 20 inches (-2.0 diopters) and your refractive status is -1/2 dipoter, the strength of the plus lens that would "just blur" the reading would be APPROXIMATELY -1.5 dipoters.
Since I have seen errors (excessive minus lens) prescriptions, is it best that YOU check your own eye chart.
Some people have been given a -1.5 diopter lens, when, by personal checking they found they could pass the 20/40 or 20/35 line -- thus meeting the state Snellen-DMV test for driving a car.
Those are the details. They are easy to describe -- but take INTENSE EFFORT to execute.
Like "losing weight", most people quit before they accomplish any result.
The "downward" change of refractive status at the military acadmies (where records are kept) is about -1/3 DIOPTERS PER YEAR.
The maximum "upward" rate would be about +1/3 diopter per year. Not a task for the faint hearted. Good results take time to develope.
Best,
Otis Engineer
> That's fine. I was not looking for quick and easy, that's the laser > surgery way anyway. I just wanted some routines the pilots did on a [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] > > > > > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Vile - 22 May 2004 17:47 GMT Thank you that does help finally, and it seems to make sense.
> Dear Vile, > [quoted text clipped - 171 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Otis Brown - 23 May 2004 05:11 GMT Dear Vile,
Re: Thank you that does help finally, and it seems to make sense.
You know, I when through an optical analysis of a box-camera, and that analysis was very compelling.
In due course, I began to figure out that analysis of a box-camera created "circular" reasoning -- or a tautology.
After talking with Dr. Raphaelson, and hearing his "story" of "The Printer's Son" I realized that a more complete analysis was required.
Since Jacob was a very sincere guy, I had to listen to him -- and understand him. I believe that the concept that the natural eye is "dynamic" must take precedence over the simple picture of the eye as a box-camera.
But that is pure-science issue, since I only present data where the visual-environment is totally controlled, and the refractive status of the entire population of natural eye is actually measured.
In principle, you could make these measurements, since the use of a trial-lens kit (in the case of humans) or atropine (in the case of primates). There is no technical reason why you could not reach the correct conclusion -- and provide the correct answers to the "proplems" I posed to the group.
But this is a "open", friendly group where new ideas and analysis is freely discussed.
Obviously, Dr. Raphaelson was not commiting "fraud" nor did he attempt to mislead anyone. What is true is that he was attempting to present the concept of the "second-opinion", so others could intelligent review and accept or reject it -- based on their own technical background and understanding.
Best,
Otis Engineer
vile5@comcast.net (Vile) wrote in message
Dr Judy - 24 May 2004 22:02 GMT > Dear Vile, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The minus lens creates "stair-case" myopia. There is no evidence for this statement.
> Your first step should be to check your own vision > on your eye chart. Establish where you stand [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Assuming you read at 20/40 to 20/60, (about -1/2 to -1.0 > diopters, depending on the OD), No, depending on the eye and pupil size. Unaided vision does not specify refractive error. Unaided distance vision of 20/40 could be due to up to 8d- 10 D of hyperopia, up to 5D to 6D of astigmatism, up to 1.5D of myopia and any combination of the above.
you must reduce the
> power of the plus by that amount. (Simple optical > physics of a "box camera".) [quoted text clipped - 155 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Otis Brown - 25 May 2004 05:34 GMT Dear Dr. Judy,
Again, with the convenient distortions. You can safely say something about:
Otis> > The minus lens creates "stair-case" myopia.
Judy> There is no evidence for this statement.
For the simple reason you simply do not read the medical and scientific literature.
Dr. Flitcroft (Ophthalmologist) has published a fine analysis of this situation -- but you are too busy spinning dials on the phoroptor to notice read the scientific papers.
When I have time I will post some excerpts of his excellent paper.
Best,
Otis Engineer
cc: ODs who keep an open mind about these issues.
> > Dear Vile, > > [quoted text clipped - 201 lines] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Help me Otis Brown you're my only hope! Mike Tyner - 25 May 2004 06:53 GMT > When I have time I will post some excerpts > of his excellent paper. Just post the publication. We can find it.
-MT
Scott Seidman - 25 May 2004 13:37 GMT "Mike Tyner" <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote in news:fbBsc.25442$zO3.7043 @newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:
>> When I have time I will post some excerpts >> of his excellent paper. > > Just post the publication. We can find it. > > -MT The one I found is:
Flitcroft DI. The lens paradigm in experimental myopia: oculomotor, optical and neurophysiological considerations. [Journal Article] Ophthalmic & Physiological Optics. 19(2):103-11, 1999 Mar.
To quote from that paper, near the end (excuse the poor cut and paste-- its tough from acrobat)
"Lack of clear evidence for lens effects in man Although the ability of the human eye to grow towards emmetropia in the first few years of life is well documented (Atkinson et al., 1996; Saunders et al., 1995), there is a remarkable absence of data indicating that lenses can alter the pattern of ocular growth. In part this reflects the fact that refractive correction in humans is intended to correct pre-existing refractive errors rather than impose them as occurs in lens rear- ing studies. Correction of refractive errors should have the effect of preventing emmetropisation. A single study (Ingram et al., 1991) that prospectively evaluated the effect of prescription of lenses for hyperopic chil- dren demonstrated a suppressive effect of lens wear on emmetropisation. This effect only reached statistical significance when the groups were analysed on the basis of compliance with treatment rather than on the basis of intention to treat. Other studies have failed to demonstrate such an inhibitory effect of glasses in hyperopic children (Atkinson et al., 1996). Although animal studies can provide information that could not be obtained in a clinical setting, it is clearly imperative that appropriate studies are undertaken to directly test the hypothesis that the growth of the human eye can altered by spectacle lenses. As yet the case remains unproven (Stone et al., 1996), but the implications of a clear demonstration of this hypothesis in humans will require a major re-evaluation of prescribing patterns."
So, Flitcroft presents his side, addresses the criticisms of this area of research, points out inconsistencies in the literature in a fairly good literature review, addresses the clear difference between adaptation during development and adaptation in the developed eye, admits that the human case is yet unproven, doesn't assert that what he wishes to be fact is fact, and calls for more studies.
In other words, Flitcroft is a scientist, and not a zealot.
Scott
Dr. Leukoma - 25 May 2004 13:55 GMT Thanks for pasting that. It serves to saw off yet another leg on Otis' stool. Indeed, does he have any more to stand on?
DrG
> "Mike Tyner" <mtyner@mindspring.com> wrote in > news:fbBsc.25442$zO3.7043 @newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net: [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Scott Otis Brown - 26 May 2004 20:29 GMT Dear Vile,
Subject: Think for yourself. We all agree that prevention is not easy. I agree that it is difficult. Others insist it is impossible. That is the "line" that separates us.
Ville> That's fine. I was not looking for quick and easy, that's the laser surgery way anyway. I just wanted some routines the pilots did on a
> day to day that's all. If that's too much to ask, never mind. On the > sight it does not give details like that. It seems you are more > interested in debating than helping people which is fine since you > give no pretense to it but still you are going to have others besides > me ask so there you go. Dear Vile,
I enjoyed talking with you -- off line.
Both of us know how difficult true-prevention is.
Since I do not know you, or your interests, everything will be up to you.
You are old enough to understand "health bias".
Indeed, most people are ONLY looking for a "magic pill" that makes their distant very sharp instantly.
I have no desire to "fight" with a person.
But you have read my site, and understand all of these "difficulties". Dr. Colgate understood them, and other ODs like Dr. Steve Leung understand them.
I will NEVER get in to a tug-of-war with an OD over these issues.
But enjoy our discussions about an anlysis of the natural eye as a sophisticated system -- I know I do.
Best,
Otis Engineer
Rishi Giovanni Gatti - 26 May 2004 22:04 GMT > Both of us know how difficult true-prevention is. Please Otis,
why do you say that prevention is difficult?
Perhaps using your special methods, prevention may be difficult.
But if you use Nature's methods, prevention is easy.
Unfortunately you speak from your bad past experience, of high myopia, detachment of the retina, presbyopia, etcetera. Because of this, you should abstain from speaking.
 Signature If you are interested in learning more about vision and the cure of imperfect sight by treatment without glasses, contacts or surgery, please visit http://TheCentralFixation.com or write to me privately.
Otis Brown - 27 May 2004 03:47 GMT Dear Rishi,
I never know what any given person (or pilot) might do.
I do advocate that a person be informed of alternatives when the alternative can be used effectively by that person.
If he decides to not take "advocacy" seriously when it CAN BE EFFECTIVE, then he has made a major decision -- with consequences for him -- that he should understand.
This is a "free" forum, and we all speak freeely.
The ODs express their opinion, and you express your honest opinion.
It is up to the reader himself to forum his own judgment about the best course of action -- that has the highest probably of being effective -- even if the issue means that the person examines pure-scientific issues concerning the dynamic behavior (under test) of the natural eye.
So let us all continue to do our best -- and as always, respect each other's opinion and profession.
Best,
Otis Engineer
> > Both of us know how difficult true-prevention is. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > detachment of the retina, presbyopia, etcetera. Because of this, you > should abstain from speaking. Dr. Leukoma - 27 May 2004 03:55 GMT Indeed, what is Rishi's profession?
Do you respect the profession of optometry, Otis? Of course not, so don't be coy.
Do I respect the various engineering professions? Of course I do, when they stick to their respective subject matters.
But, at least you have found someone on your level, with whom to have a discussion about the "natural eye" and "prevention."
DrG
> Dear Rishi, > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> myopia, detachment of the retina, presbyopia, etcetera. Because of >> this, you should abstain from speaking. Otis Brown - 28 May 2004 03:57 GMT > Indeed, what is Rishi's profession? > > Do you respect the profession of optometry, Otis? Of course not, so don't > be coy. 1. I respect a person's right of "informed choice".
2. I respect Dr. Jacob Raphaelson, Dr. Steve Leung, and all other optometrists who will discuss the POSSIBILITY of prevention when their vision is at 0.0 to +0.25 dioters. Certainly, at -1/4 to -1/2 diopters an intelligent pilot should be provided with a review of the possibility of prevention at that point.
3. Dr. Francis Young was also qualified as an optometrist and I have the GREATEST repect for him.
> Do I respect the various engineering professions? Of course I do, when > they stick to their respective subject matters. Excellent. When I talk about the natural eye changing its refractive status (as the visual enviroment is changed) you have no argument with me about the proven nature of the natural eye. I have intentionally used the neutral word "refractive state" to separate what you measure from what you interpert. Seperates pure-scientific facts from optometry and saves unnecessary fighting.
> But, at least you have found someone on your level, with whom to have a > discussion about the "natural eye" and "prevention." Remember Rishi agreese with YOU -- that a plus lens must NOT be used for the prevention of nearsightedss.
If fact, all the "Bates" people choke at the thought of using the plus for prevention. So the concept of prevention is not "Bates" in origin or character.
It is Dr. Jacob Raphaelson's concept -- and the conept of Professor Dr. Gronvenor (Houston) as the second opionion.
It is indeed difficult to implement properly.
I guess it depends on how you define your subject matter.
Best,
Otis
_______________
> DrG > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Otis > > Engineer Dr. Leukoma - 28 May 2004 12:49 GMT >> Indeed, what is Rishi's profession? >> >> Do you respect the profession of optometry, Otis? Of course not, so >> don't be coy. > > 1. I respect a person's right of "informed choice". ...as I do. But, let me put the emphasis on "informed choice." Your arguments have been soundly and roundly debated and discussed in this forum. Anybody who chooses to use your method to prevent myopia is doing so DESPITE abundant and relevant information that it is not effective.
> 2. I respect Dr. Jacob Raphaelson, Dr. Steve Leung, > and all other optometrists who will discuss the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should be provided with a review of the possibility > of prevention at that point. In other words, "birds of a feather." Please feel free to present the results of their research.
> 3. Dr. Francis Young was also qualified as an > optometrist and I have the GREATEST repect for him. I have read the single paper of his you have chosen as one of your cornerstones. Even that paper does not seem to support your assertions.
>> Do I respect the various engineering professions? Of course I do, >> when they stick to their respective subject matters. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > pure-scientific facts from optometry and saves > unnecessary fighting. There is no fighting among vision scientists regarding terminology. There is no "proven nature of the natural eye," only experimental evidence that some vertebrate eyes behave in a certain manner under a certain set of unusual laboratory-induced artificial circumstances, which suggests a certain behavior, the exact mechanism of which has not been fully elucidated.
Hey, maybe they didn't ask you.
>> But, at least you have found someone on your level, with whom to have >> a discussion about the "natural eye" and "prevention." > > Remember Rishi agreese with YOU -- that a plus lens > must NOT be used for the prevention of nearsightedss. Rishi would never agree with me. Also, I would be appreciative if you would not put words in my mouth. I have never said that a plus lens must not be used for the prevention of nearsightedness. I have argues that plus lens prevention has not been demonstrated to prevent axial myopia, which is the type of myopia associated with elongation of the posterior chamber of the eye.
You, sir, demonstrated this a trait at our very first encounter, when you published exerpts out-of-context and without my permission from a private email reply I had sent to you. That single act demonstrated that you not only had no respect for me, but neither had you any respect for privacy. You are only able to exist here by constantly evading direct questions, using rubber definitions, and changing the subject. You seem to be able to perform this ritual endlessly.
> If fact, all the "Bates" people choke at the thought > of using the plus for prevention. So the concept > of prevention is not "Bates" in origin or character. I do admit I find his ideas even stranger than your own.
> It is Dr. Jacob Raphaelson's concept -- and > the conept of Professor Dr. Gronvenor (Houston) > as the second opionion. Since I am not familiar with Dr. Raphaelson's concept, I will not comment. Otherwise, I am aware that Dr. Grosvenor held certain beliefs that were not uncommon among optometrists, particularly "behavioral optometrists" during his time. Because optometry is a discipline that follows and believes in the scientific method, and the schools and colleges of optometry have been able to fund and support the scientific work of vision scientists, some pet beliefs which were controversial even in their heyday, have now been debunked. In other words, your beliefs are a relic from that earlier time.
DrG
> _______________ > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> > Otis >> > Engineer Dr Judy - 29 May 2004 03:59 GMT > > Indeed, what is Rishi's profession? > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > should be provided with a review of the possibility > of prevention at that point. The pilot also deserves to be told there is no evidence that the use of a plus lens at near will prevent or reverse myopia, and that if one accepts that the reasoning underlying the use of the plus lens, that logic dictates that the odds of preventing myopia are about 30% to 40% and the odds of creating hyperopia are about 60% to 70%.
snip
> When I talk about the natural eye changing > its refractive status (as the visual enviroment [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pure-scientific facts from optometry and saves > unnecessary fighting. Where is it proven that the eye changes its refraction to match the environment? The studies you refer to use an animal model of simulated congenital refractive error to show that neonatal animal eyes with large hyperopic refractive errors tend to self correct with time whether the hyperopia is simulated with lenses or by an artifically near point of "far" vision, but that congenital myopia is less successfully self corrected. Those studies had nothing to say about the behaviour of "natural" eyes in a "visual" environment.
> It is Dr. Jacob Raphaelson's concept -- and > the conept of Professor Dr. Gronvenor (Houston) > as the second opionion. As I have pointed out to you many times, Dr Grosvenor initially thought that near work had something to do with the development of myopia and he conducted a number of well controlled studies to test that idea. His published work found that using plus at near did not alter the normal course of myopia development: he proved his own ideas wrong.
Dr Judy
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